One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on December 04, 2011, 12:11:11 AM
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Richmond on prowl for a top-four scalp
by: Michael Warner in Arizona
From: Sunday Herald Sun
December 04, 2011
RICHMOND has set its sights on beating at least one top-four side next year.
Tigers coach Damien Hardwick said his players had made the pledge at a goal-setting session during the week in Tucson, Arizona.
And an opportunity will come early with games against Carlton, Collingwood, Geelong and West Coast in the first five weeks of the 2012 AFL season.
"We talked about our standard of performance and that we want to improve that over the course of the year," Hardwick said.
"We're still a fair way off those top four to five sides - and that's an area where we want to improve. We'd love to beat one of those sides next year. It is one of our goals and we've fallen well short of that over the past two years.
"I reckon we were between 30 and 60 points off those sides. And when a side is starting to mature you want to knock off one of those guys and that's one thing we are looking to do next year."
Richmond's last win against a top-four side was a 29-point victory against eventual premier Hawthorn in Round 20, 2008. Terry Wallace was then coach.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/richmond-on-prowl-for-a-top-four-scalp/story-e6frf9jf-1226213206807
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Carlton top 4? :lol
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Carlton top 4? :lol
Round 15 this year, they beat us by by 103 points.
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Carlton top 4? :lol
Round 15 this year, they beat us by by 103 points.
Yeah, thanks for reminding us all :chuck
This scum is the first team we should be setting our sights on beating. But Gerks is spot on. These cheats are only top 4 material in their own deluded imagination.
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Concs and Lids up into the midfield. AWESOME MR. FRODO!!! I cant wait to tell Bilbo and the fellowship. (I hope this doesn't get edited I think it conveys the spirit of camaraderie and ...haha I can't go on)
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Instead of that how about we pledge not to get beat by the losers of the comp ie Port and Gold Coast
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Just read the article in full.
Way too much ''spin "' Dimma
Mat Dea to play 22 games ::) You say you will be disappointed if he doesnt play 22 games, can tell you Dimma, you will be disappointed.
Then mentions about the recuitment of quality kicks like Ellis, Morris DEA and Houli.
Well well well.
The first two mentioned havent played AFL footy, so how would anyone know if they can kick under the pressure of an AFL Game.
And as for Dea, please Dimma, you need contact lenses, he cannot kick as we have all witnessed.
Give you Houli though, so one out of 4 isnt too bad Dimma
Please we have bearly finished the 2011 and now you are talking ''spin "" for 2012.
And as for Shane Edwards comments, god help us !
John McCarthy is hardly a world beater, ordinary footballer at best, he can actually kick a ball, ( when he gets it ::))
Also Reeca Conca is no Mark Murphy. ::)
For us to be competitive this year Dimma, you will need to rely alot on Lids, Martin and Cotchin being at there best every week
memberships must be low at the moment, way too much crap and talking players up.
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Agree better off saying nothing at all than spinning a yarn like that
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Chuck, you earlier comments are spot on.
I would be saying "we need to win the winnable games" eg Port and Gold Coast etc.
The other rubbish about beating a top 4 team ::) :chuck
Lets just win the games that we can. :gotigers
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Is the "full article" in the print media only?
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yes
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Just read the article in full.
Way too much ''spin "' Dimma
Mat Dea to play 22 games ::) You say you will be disappointed if he doesnt play 22 games, can tell you Dimma, you will be disappointed.
Then mentions about the recuitment of quality kicks like Ellis, Morris DEA and Houli.
Well well well.
The first two mentioned havent played AFL footy, so how would anyone know if they can kick under the pressure of an AFL Game.
And as for Dea, please Dimma, you need contact lenses, he cannot kick as we have all witnessed.
Give you Houli though, so one out of 4 isnt too bad Dimma
Please we have bearly finished the 2011 and now you are talking ''spin "" for 2012.
And as for Shane Edwards comments, god help us !
John McCarthy is hardly a world beater, ordinary footballer at best, he can actually kick a ball, ( when he gets it ::))
Also Reeca Conca is no Mark Murphy. ::)
For us to be competitive this year Dimma, you will need to rely alot on Lids, Martin and Cotchin being at there best every week
memberships must be low at the moment, way too much crap and talking players up.
If we were in the trenches together, I think I would have to shoot you for morale captain downer.
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i wouldnt be in the trenches in the first place , why ?
As I would of planned not to be there .
For what its worth, todays article in the paper was utter rubbish.
We couldnt even beat Gold Coast and Port last year, was flogged by 103 points by Carlton, and everyone knows that Dea is an ordinary kick, so why go and say rubbish for , really.
I am not about being a downer, I am about reality.
You cannot fix the problems in any situation, if you dont know the reality of the situation.
We are dreamers at Punt Rd.
And I dare not mention Shane Edwards, please Dimma, if you looking at Edwards to be a one of your solutions., look elsewhere
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i wouldnt be in the trenches in the first place , why ?
As I would of planned not to be there .
For what its worth, todays article in the paper was utter rubbish.
We couldnt even beat Gold Coast and Port last year, was flogged by 103 points by Carlton, and everyone knows that Dea is an ordinary kick, so why go and say rubbish for , really.
I am not about being a downer, I am about reality.
You cannot fix the problems in any situation, if you dont know the reality of the situation.
We are dreamers at Punt Rd.
And I dare not mention Shane Edwards, please Dimma, if you looking at Edwards to be a one of your solutions., look elsewhere
Want some cheese with that whine
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1 win againt a top 4 side, wouldnt suprise me at all if we had a couple :shh
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is this the start of the preseason all talk & no action like the last 30 years. Stop talking & just do it
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Carlton top 4? :lol
Round 15 this year, they beat us by by 103 points.
where did they finish peanut?
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i wouldnt be in the trenches in the first place , why ?
As I would of planned not to be there .
For what its worth, todays article in the paper was utter rubbish.
We couldnt even beat Gold Coast and Port last year, was flogged by 103 points by Carlton, and everyone knows that Dea is an ordinary kick, so why go and say rubbish for , really.
I am not about being a downer, I am about reality.
You cannot fix the problems in any situation, if you dont know the reality of the situation.
We are dreamers at Punt Rd.
And I dare not mention Shane Edwards, please Dimma, if you looking at Edwards to be a one of your solutions., look elsewhere
Want some cheese with that whine
Tasmanian Heritage thanks
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is this the start of the preseason all talk & no action like the last 30 years. Stop talking & just do it
correct, same rubbish, different year ::)
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i wouldnt be in the trenches in the first place , why ?
As I would of planned not to be there .
For what its worth, todays article in the paper was utter rubbish.
We couldnt even beat Gold Coast and Port last year, was flogged by 103 points by Carlton, and everyone knows that Dea is an ordinary kick, so why go and say rubbish for , really.
I am not about being a downer, I am about reality.
You cannot fix the problems in any situation, if you dont know the reality of the situation.
We are dreamers at Punt Rd.
And I dare not mention Shane Edwards, please Dimma, if you looking at Edwards to be a one of your solutions., look elsewhere
Want some cheese with that whine
Tasmanian Heritage thanks
nicely done Jack
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is this the start of the preseason all talk & no action like the last 30 years. Stop talking & just do it
no that started when the club came out and said 3075 or whatever it was.
for me no more talk no more spin just make finals
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i wouldnt be in the trenches in the first place , why ?
As I would of planned not to be there .
For what its worth, todays article in the paper was utter rubbish.
We couldnt even beat Gold Coast and Port last year, was flogged by 103 points by Carlton, and everyone knows that Dea is an ordinary kick, so why go and say rubbish for , really.
I am not about being a downer, I am about reality.
You cannot fix the problems in any situation, if you dont know the reality of the situation.
We are dreamers at Punt Rd.
And I dare not mention Shane Edwards, please Dimma, if you looking at Edwards to be a one of your solutions., look elsewhere
(http://slices-of-life.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/is-yawning-contagious04.jpg)
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Way too much ''spin "' Dimma
You talk about spin from Hardwick, you speak of having read the entire article (which I assume means you are talking about the his comments on a number of players) but your selectively pick out a couple of players eg Dea (and I ageee with you on him) & Edwards
But you fail to mention or make any comment on what he said about Batchelor, Helbig, Reiwoldt? Why is that? ;D
Spin perhaps :rollin
memberships must be low at the moment, way too much crap and talking players up.
Actually membership is about 2.5k up on this time last year so I reckon it isn't too bad
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Actually, I think we must be saying/doing all the right things this pre-season because Jackstar's relentless bitching is even more petty/irrelevant than usual.
:thumbsup
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He is an Emoaner, he cuts to feel, then moans on the forum.
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He is an Emoaner, he cuts to feel, then moans on the forum.
::) ::) :sleep
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Actually, I think we must be saying/doing all the right things this pre-season because Jackstar's relentless bitching is even more petty/irrelevant than usual.
:thumbsup
we have been doing the same for 30 years odd :sleep :sleep :sleep ::)
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is this the start of the preseason all talk & no action like the last 30 years. Stop talking & just do it
correct, same rubbish, different year ::)
We could say the same of Tweedledum and Tweedlestupid on the above posts as well :lol
Some of what J'stars comments are bang on - Edwards and Dea - but seriously mate you are like hyenas feasting on any carcass left to scrap on.
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Just read the article in full.
Way too much ''spin "' Dimma
Mat Dea to play 22 games ::) You say you will be disappointed if he doesnt play 22 games, can tell you Dimma, you will be disappointed.
Then mentions about the recuitment of quality kicks like Ellis, Morris DEA and Houli.
Well well well.
The first two mentioned havent played AFL footy, so how would anyone know if they can kick under the pressure of an AFL Game.
And as for Dea, please Dimma, you need contact lenses, he cannot kick as we have all witnessed.
Give you Houli though, so one out of 4 isnt too bad Dimma
Please we have bearly finished the 2011 and now you are talking ''spin "" for 2012.
And as for Shane Edwards comments, god help us !
John McCarthy is hardly a world beater, ordinary footballer at best, he can actually kick a ball, ( when he gets it ::))
Also Reeca Conca is no Mark Murphy. ::)
For us to be competitive this year Dimma, you will need to rely alot on Lids, Martin and Cotchin being at there best every week
memberships must be low at the moment, way too much crap and talking players up.
You got me Jack. I had to go out and buy today's Hun just to see how much inaccuracy and spin there was. Well, I have to say I didn't read the article the same way as you (shock, horror). :o
Matt Dea. Under the heading "Emerging Types" (important to take on board in the context of the comments I would think) he states "he's looked outstanding in the pre-season". Probably has, just like most of the list at most of the clubs at this time of the year. "We expect him to play 22 games if injury free". Nothing like lighting a torch under a player by making/raising the expectations of that player publicly is there? But no, it's all spin because we need to sell memberships and nothing will light the membership torch under Richmond supporters by talking up Matt Dea's pre-season training, hey. I reckon he has publicly raised the bar with Dea to see if the kid has got the ticker and ability to meet the challenge.
Quality kicks. Ellis and Morris have reputations of being good kicks in the highest level of football they have played to date so how can the club possibly do the right thing by you if you expect new draftee's to come with a guarantee of being a good kick "under the pressure of an AFL game" without them having ever played one? The reality is that the only thing the club can do is recruit players with good skills that they believe will stand up to the pressure, nothing more and that is just what they have done. And on the subject of "AFL pressure", you talk about Dea's kicking skills without accounting for the fact he has only played 7 games and had 22 kicks in his career. Bit harsh judging an 18 year old with such finality based on 22 kicks, before he has had any chance at all to learn how to handle "AFL pressure".
Shane Edwards. Hardwick states "We threw Shane forward last year and were pleased with the pressure he applied, but also he's got an uncanny ability to generate shots on goal, and there's not many guys who can do that". Where is any untruth or exaggeration in that statement? It's not spin if you are stating a fact and I don't read anything more than stating the bleeding obvious in those comments.
John McCarthy. Where does Hardwick say he is a "world beater"? He actually says "he's a guy that can give us great flexibility, he can play forward, midfield and a little down back" and "he can play the game" but you conveniently included "world beater" to make your argument. Talk about 'spin' hey Jack! He's another take on it - maybe, just maybe McCarthy gives us more options, more depth, just like Grigg did, and maybe that's what Hardwick was alluding to when he said "flexibility". Not a "world beater" at all but an improvement on Morton most likely and what would we call that again? That's right, improvement. A lot of small 'improvements' will mean a lot of overall improvement don't you think?
Reece Conca. Poor Reece, one season in his short AFL career and already he has been rejected by you as not being a Marc Murphy. Guess what Jack, in Marc Murphy's first year of football he was no Marc Murphy either. First year comparison: Murphy played 13 games in a bottom of the ladder side getting 234 disposals (18 per game), 73 (5.6) marks and 27 (2.1) tackles. Conca played 17 games in a middle of the road side getting 265 (15.6) disposals, 68 (4) marks and 30 (1.7) tackles. Yeah, quantum difference there, especially when you consider the first half dozen or so games of Conca's career were spent in defence in a lock down role on the small forwards/resting mids while he learned the defensive aspects of the game. Apples to apples Jack.
Deledio, Cotchin and Martin. Hardwick acknowledges how good these players are and by that very thing states their importance to the team. But you chose not to include the rest of that paragraph that says "the measure of you as a coach is not how good your stars are but finding out if players can get better at the lower end of the scale". Refer back to my comments on Dea and McCarthy.
And that leaves the best for last - spin. I'll quote a number of statements from the article that to me were more just stating things how Hardwick sees them and what he is planning, rather any Wallace-esque attempt to gloss over the cracks and fill the membership coffers:
As a Richmond supporter, I think you would be mildly excited about our future
I would think so too. Mildly is the word he used, not overly or wildly or anything else.
You see the development of Trent Cotchin and Dustin Martin, and then we're looking for the emergence of guys like Ty Vickery, Jake Batchelor, Reece Conca and Ben Griffiths.
"You only have to look at the top five in our best and fairest, their average age was 22.
"For a developing footy club, it's a really important thing to look at. It's exciting. And you can imagine in three or four years, touch wood, that they're only going to get better.
Top 5 players in our best and fairest averaging 22 years old and he imagines that with luck they are only going to get better. Well, der, Captain Obvious.
The quality of Richmond's stars is not in dispute, but Hardwick says it's an emerging group of lesser lights that will drive the climb back up.
Names such as Brad Helbig, Matt Dea, Dylan Grimes, Jaydn Post, David Astbury, Robbie Nahas, Shane Edwards and Alex Rance. Then there's mature-age recruits Ivan Maric, Steven Morris, Shaun Grigg and Bachar Houli.
I dare you to argue that it won't be our lesser lights that will drive the climb back up. Whether you agree with every name listed as an example is not the issue as I'm sure you will agree that we have a large number of lesser lights that could/would/should improve.
Hardwick says for the first time in a long time the Tigers are building depth.
"We spoke about it to our guys the other day," he says.
"When you look at those Grand Final sides, it's not your top five or six, because they will always play well, it's your bottom six.
"We probably haven't had that depth, but it's something we are starting to get now."
I find it hard to argue with this, how about you?
"You've only got to look at West Coast as a fantastic example for us," Hardwick says.
"Considering where they finished the year before, you wouldn't have thought that they were going to finish top four and that's a great template for us.
"And the thing that they did really, really well was working their backsides off defensively. And that's something we have tried to take on board. We showed the players vision of the things they were doing.
"But the thing that they've got probably a little bit over us is that they've got maturer bodies, they can win that contested ball count a little bit higher than what we can do at stages."
Mmm, acknowledge a competitor as a good example of what can be achieved and how they did it, while you also acknowledge differences that help make that competitor a top 4 side that you can't match yet. Yeah, has the word spin written all over it in that piece.
Worse still, in 2011 the club finished 16th in contested possession.
"There's no doubt it's an area of concern and we've brought in a defensive formation coach in Ross Smith who has been with Hawthorn for seven years," Hardwick says. "I obviously worked with him and realised just how good he is.
"The points against is obviously the end result, but our contested possession, I think, was 16th in the AFL. So that will be a key indicator for us. If we dramatically improve that, then the ball goes our way instead of the opposition's.
"This game is a brutal game. Nothing has changed over the last 150 years - at the end of the day you've got to get the ball. It's something we fell down in last year and we're going to rectify. Sixteenth last year, hopefully top eight next year."
An admission of a major shortcoming with a stated intention of correcting that, starting with the (already done) recruitment of well credentialed coaching personnel to work in that specific area. What part of this is spin?
Defender Kelvin Moore is the club's only long-term injury concern, making a slow recovery from serious hip surgery.
It's a loss that has forced the Tigers to find another centre half-back.
"With Rance, Grimes, Griffiths, Astbury, Post and McGuane,we think we've got some options up our sleeve. But once again, they're young and are going to take time to develop,"
Another problem identified with our options presented, acknowledging that these options are not necessarily the best possible yet. All this spin is starting to sound damn depressing if you ask me.
The Richmond players were reminded this week no fewer than 30 players have come and gone since Hardwick joined the club. But while satisfied with the progress of the Richmond rebuild - the latest in a string of failed attempts - Hardwick says he's under no illusions that his third year as senior coach must deliver results.
The honeymoon is over.
"The expectation rises once again next year - and we spoke about that in our team meeting," he says.
"The reality is, if you aim for perfection and fall a little bit short, you're still a bloody good side. If you set the bar for mediocrity and you fail, then you're still an average side.
"So we talked about upping the ante and the expectation stakes and driving our guys to meet them."
And finally, what part of any of this closing is anything more than what the reality is?
Sorry Jack, I didn't read much spin in this article at all, but in your reply I did read a lot of opinionated negativity to anything the club says or does.
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And on a funny side note to the article in the Hun, did anyone see the Navy advertisement at the bottom of p48? The headline reads:
"A SECURE CAREER LOCKED AND LOADED"
Peed myself. :lol
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Crap, aiming very low Dima...we will beat more than 1 top 4 side....it starts round 1 although I rate the Blues as much as 0.
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Does not compute how the tankers are a top 4 side?
1.Geelong
2.Scumwood
3.Dawks
4.Eagles
5.Tankers.
Top 4 my ass.
:lol :lol
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Actually, I think we must be saying/doing all the right things this pre-season because Jackstar's relentless bitching is even more petty/irrelevant than usual.
:thumbsup
expecting DEA to become a Joshhunt stylegun now
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Laughable :lol
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Does not compute how the tankers are a top 4 side?
1.Geelong
2.Scumwood
3.Dawks
4.Eagles
5.Tankers.
Top 4 my ass.
:lol :lol
Tigers alive. Do the five!
embarrassing slogan if no one remembers Laurie Lawrence ads
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Interesting that Dimma mentioned Griffiths with the list of defensive talls.... :huh
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Laughable :lol
Excellent rebuttal! ::) Jack you could have at least said to Smokey "I fart in your general direction" ;D
BTW, Well said Smokey. A far more accurate portrayal of the article if you ask me :clapping
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Does not compute how the tankers are a top 4 side?
1.Geelong
2.Scumwood
3.Dawks
4.Eagles
5.Tankers.
Top 4 my ass.
:lol :lol
they are legitimate top 4 contenders in 2012
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Well argued Smokey. I think we have a bright future for the first time in a long time. For years I looked to the coming season as pretty much more of the same but we have been applying the kaizen principle and little by little improving our lot in difficult circumstances. Next year represents a big step with our ability to be able to move two very talented players into the midfield in Concs and Lids, that is going to make a huge difference, hopefully for the better. I reckon we have done alright through this phase of new clubs entering the comp. As for Griffs doing a stint as a defensive tall, won't hurt him to build his defensive skills even if later on he moves into the forward line, bit of a rolls royce big defender lol.
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Agree with comments need to be able to beat the lower teams convincingly. Believe we should play a low profile in the media at the moment. Let the results do the talking
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Agree with comments need to be able to beat the lower teams convincingly. Believe we should play a low profile in the media at the moment. Let the results do the talking
Correct :thumbsup
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It must be said Smokey "pwned" J'crackster
:clapping
One of the posts of 2011, showed up the j'crack big time :thumbsup
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It must be said Smokey "pwned" J'crackster
:clapping
One of the posts of 2011, showed up the j'crack big time :thumbsup
Correct :thumbsup
get a clue idiot ::)
FACT
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:banghead :banghead
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Hey OL Smokey ?. Why run out & buy a paper when you can just go to the HUN website :lol
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Hey OL Smokey ?. Why run out & buy a paper when you can just go to the HUN website :lol
Hearing you TM but the list of players - "Emerging Types" etc - wasn't on the net so I had to trek down to the local newsagent to read some of what Jack was referring to. Lucky they had the paper because many up here don't get the Melbourne papers on the same day. :thumbsup
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:banghead :banghead
:rollin.
:birthday