One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: WilliamPowell on June 01, 2009, 08:54:10 PM
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
-
i reckon we will win at least another 6 games for the remainder of the year
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
Ramps will jump off Westgate :lol
-
i reckon we will win at least another 6 games for the remainder of the year
With the deplorable mess Tezza left us with ::)
How so?
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
Ramps will jump off Westgate :lol
and i will jump off the Bolte.
if it happens so be it but anything is better than watching the snake lover and brown nose in our line up.
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
We have had a bad experience with Giesche who won four from 5 including the Dogs and North who made a prelim and thrashed Port. Our comeback win against Carlton in rd 22 at Optus was the clincher. Proved that player power was more powerful than coaching power until 2 years later. That's the problem with our club.
I personally don't think we should go for any our assistants as I feel they are not good enough to be a senior coach at this level regardless of how many wins we get. Move heaven and earth to get either Matthews Malthouse or Hardwick. The appointing of one of the assistants to me would be clearly a player motivated appointing and will still leave us with issues of internal upheaval, player dissent and supporter backlash in a few years time from now, and so the cycle of mediocrity will begin again if that is the case.
Just my take on it.
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
Ramps will jump off Westgate :lol
and i will jump off the Bolte.
if it happens so be it but anything is better than watching the snake lover and brown nose in our line up.
Sounds like a good start
-
i reckon we will win at least another 6 games for the remainder of the year
With the deplorable mess Tezza left us with ::)
How so?
These are the wins.
Round 12 West Coast
Round 14 Adelaide
Round 16 North Melbourne
Round 18 Melbourne
Round 19 Sydney
Round 22 West Coast
-
i reckon we will win at least another 6 games for the remainder of the year
With the deplorable mess Tezza left us with ::)
How so?
These are the wins.
Round 12 West Coast
Round 14 Adelaide
Round 16 North Melbourne
Round 18 Melbourne
Round 19 Sydney
Round 22 West Coast
We have beaten Adelaide once this decade and haven't beaten Sydney since 2005.
What odds would you give me for a wager on completing that double Jack? ;)
I am sure the board and coterie groups would have a say on who will get the job full time and should we win 6 or so games in the 2nd half of the season I see it as another coterie group appointee who is looking after their own interests as opposed of the club long term until some point in time in season 2011-12 when the poo will hit the fan again.
It's not about tanking, it's about the future of the club and the last thing we would want is another faceless scheming puppett of an assistant graduate to a underachieving coach doing what club insiders and cancer riddled fogeys want just because they were involved in our last flag or last glory era and thus using it as some form of leverage over the club and its fans like it has more creedence. Its Gieschen revisited 12 years later.
Wasn't Campbell of the adage the players are bigger than the club. Wonder how he would feel in two years time if he gets the gig full time and the players mutiny. Or will he ensure that will happen to Rawlings first in 2011 before he takes over after he has served 4 years as an apprenticeship and gained what will be perceived as more experience as an assistant thus making his claim to the senior gig more legitimate.
-
Would think the adelaide game on the gold coast makes them iffy.
The sydney game , well they have the saints the week before. when play melbourne the week before.
we are a good chance i reckon
-
If we win six, it prove except our stupidity, maybe we can trade our first 3 picks in the draft for say Travis Johnson or someone who's over 30 whilst we are at it. The only way will get all those wins is if the other sides believe they wont make the finals and will get some games into their kids.Ever wonder why we win games at the end of the year?
Anyway I have a little faith in our management who I hope will direct the new coach to play the full list. I hope its Sheedy as he will do whats best for Richmond's long term future instead of his own short term career and to please the uneducated and opposition supporting media.
-
Would think the adelaide game on the gold coast makes them iffy.
The sydney game , well they have the saints the week before. when play melbourne the week before.
we are a good chance i reckon
They beat Melbourne on the GC in 2006 Jack and the only time we have beaten the Crows is when Terry's game plan of basketball worked to a tea for us. Furthermore the Swans game plan always comes up trumps against us. Roosie does have the wood over us. A seventh successive finals series would be enough motivation for them to overcome us especially with their recent record against us. Come to think of it both the Crows and Swans will be in the finals mix, we won't. I'd say at best we would win 1 of those two matches.
-
I suppose I was more interested in how people who are crying out for us to tank would react if we win more than 4 games
Personally I can see us winning another 5 or 6 games, which I have no problem with especially if it is on the back of the kids.
Winning is a more pleasant experience than losing ;D
-
Richmond fans want us to win the flag / win games
the problem is the player / coach / club is not good enough
the people who want us to tank such as me, want us to lose games in the short term, so we get good kids and will hopfully be good in the future.
if we play kids for the rest of the year and win games, i would be very happy, as would everyone.
i even think i would be happy comming 9th. as long as we have young promising players in the 22. not simmonds, bowden, pettifer, king types.
-
I suppose I was more interested in how people who are crying out for us to tank would react if we win more than 4 games
Personally I can see us winning another 5 or 6 games, which I have no problem with especially if it is on the back of the kids.
Winning is a more pleasant experience than losing ;D
i do not think anyone would be upsetting at winning more games. the problem is we are currently not a young team. look at average age of our 22 compared to other clubs.
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
need to undertand the context of those wins...are they against ea of the top 4 sides or bottom sides, were they convincing or did we fall in...is the style of play a sustainable one...is their difinitive improvement in any players...whole lot of factos come into play and of course we want to win games we've got members top re-sign, key players to re-sign ...the smell of success brings them back not the wiff of a rotting carcus :o
-
I suppose I was more interested in how people who are crying out for us to tank would react if we win more than 4 games
Personally I can see us winning another 5 or 6 games, which I have no problem with especially if it is on the back of the kids.
Winning is a more pleasant experience than losing ;D
Last year we finished 9th on the back of our kids and Richo. If we won games in the second half on the back of the kids I would be gleeful also so long as the momentum we take into next season rather than build on hype as we did this year. Would not change my view on appointing a ready made coach as opposed to an assistant who has graduated on the proviso of 11 games of footy.
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
Ramps will jump off Westgate :lol
lol ... Im not jumping off anywhere lol ... maybe Id go up there with a souvlaki and some drinks and stop the traffic waiting for the coppers and the TV crews, and until I got a firm commitment that the Tank was back on I wouldnt be going nowhere ;D
-
I hope we not only play the kids but also experiment with players playing in different positions. Not only will this possibly help us find the best position for players but, if injuries hit during games or the season, we can confidently move players to cover 'holes'.
The rest of the year should be about experimenting and testing players, game styles and line-ups for next year and beyond.
If we win games after doing all that then I would be happy because it means we already have the list to succeed.
Stripes
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
if we played:
Moore McGaune Thursfeild
Tambling Rance Edwards/Polo
Tuck Cotchin Cousins
Reiwoldt Post White
Nahas Vickery Morton
Graham Deledio Foley
Pattison Coughlan Jackson Newman/Connors
for the rest of the year and won games, i would be somewhat content
-
wp
i would be rapt
just as cuz says, winning isnt everything, its the only thing
the draft oreder is overrated , take collins for example, picked very late but looking the goods
hird is the best example. winning is the best medicine
:gotigers :gotigers :gotigers :gotigers :gotigers
-
I am sure the board and coterie groups would have a say on who will get the job full time and should we win 6 or so games in the 2nd half of the season I see it as another coterie group appointee who is looking after their own interests as opposed of the club long term until some point in time in season 2011-12 when the poo will hit the fan again.
Load of rubbish.
Now the coach is gone the usual suspects are finding something else to conjure up out of thin air/whinge about.
"A recruitment firm will be employed to manage the process of finding the next coach. Senior Richmond figures have a philosophical view of the type of people likely to be looked at but, as St Kilda appointment of Ross Lyon proved, the process can unearth unexpected results."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnews/tigers-to-search-for-young-coach/2009/06/01/1243708402556.html
This time due process will be followed.
-
Seriously, why would we be worried about draft picks? What have they ever done for us?
We need to start winning, and addressing far bigger 'cultural' problems than worrying about whether we get pick 2 or pick 8.
-
The players must now start winning & the youngsters need to push harder & lift to the next level
Winning is what everyone wants, l dont care about drafts, if you really wanna know many #1-10 draft picks break down in thier 1st season due to preasure.
Winning games will put a better feeling into everyone involved with Richmond :thumbsup
-
The players must now start winning & the youngsters need to push harder & lift to the next level
Winning is what everyone wants, l dont care about drafts, if you really wanna know many #1-10 draft picks break down in thier 1st season due to preasure.
Winning games will put a better feeling into everyone involved with Richmond :thumbsup
Totally agree. :gotigers
-
Dont tell me you are now going to enjoy wins for just what they are and not dissect them into a million little pieces ;)
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
wins on the back of youth will accepted by the tiger faithful as a positive.
Simmons Brown KJ Bowden are not youth, richo should not play again this year either
The only elder statesman who should be playing is Cousins.
-
The players must now start winning & the youngsters need to push harder & lift to the next level
Winning is what everyone wants, l dont care about drafts, if you really wanna know many #1-10 draft picks break down in thier 1st season due to preasure.
Winning games will put a better feeling into everyone involved with Richmond :thumbsup
No point winning games with your grandpa 22 Tigermonk, whats teh point fo winning games with Simmonds, Bowden, Johnson, Brown when they wont be playing in 2010.. achieves nothing.
Blood the kids see if they can play at AFL level with a winning formula and inject in some faith and confidence.
-
The players must now start winning & the youngsters need to push harder & lift to the next level
Winning is what everyone wants, l dont care about drafts, if you really wanna know many #1-10 draft picks break down in thier 1st season due to preasure.
Winning games will put a better feeling into everyone involved with Richmond :thumbsup
No point winning games with your grandpa 22 Tigermonk, whats teh point fo winning games with Simmonds, Bowden, Johnson, Brown when they wont be playing in 2010.. achieves nothing.
Blood the kids see if they can play at AFL level with a winning formula and inject in some faith and confidence.
the only senior players l said should be in the side are Bowden, Brown & Cousins, next year
Simmonds Johnson Richo are all injured & should retire
so who is good enough to push for Bowden, Brown & Cousins places next year, no-one deserves any of thier places because they aint pushed them out this year
kids have to lift levels to get rewarded otherwise you dont progress & establish a high standard at the club, Rewarding games to players like Edwards, Shulzs, Hislop, Conners, are a joke
Players rewarded & holding thier spots are players like Collins, Patto, Graham, Polo, & l reckon Kingy deserves ago just cause he adds flair but play him off the bench in a resting midfield role or on a wing
Years not finished yet ;D Deledio still think he can win enough games to make the finals, thats a big statement from the lad but not impossible. but fire away l'm interested in what you have to say, stop being a idiot ;D l love a good conversation about football & a good debate. l put one up. debate it ;D who deserves to take those 3 places of the players l beleive will play all games next year ifnot stopped by injuries
-
I understand your a big fan of these players as am I, it kills me to see Bowden and Richo be in there twilights and be robbed of ultimate success and see someone like Cam Mooney the worlds worst every forward walk in 2 premierships with his pants down and could have been 3 and will play in his 4th this year. It genuinely kills me.
I think the reality is that In looking at the list you have to assess each one individually. (And I will get to your question in a sec)
Kane Johnson = Injured since Geez has been born, gone.
Troy Simmonds = Has lost pace dramatically and his strength isn't the same of 2 years ago and his leap is non existent.
Nathan Brown = Has he kicked more than 4 goals a game since his broken leg? His body just keeps breaking down and can't string more than 4 games together and I don't think he's played 2 certainly not 3 good games in a row.
Joel Bowden = Honestly is notorious for bad starts to the season and would in teh bracket between 16th and 22nd picked in the squad. Think his body woudl hold up but I woudl like his responisbiility in teh backline to be transfered to McGuane or Moore.
Matthew Richardson = Would be devastated if he wasn't resigned. I think it will come down to his body and he may be saved with not being properly fit around the time f the decision being made and will get given a lifeline. Whetehr he plays or not will depend on whether he can get 100% fit.
Ben Cousins = Can still play and if fully fit woudl possibly be in our best 3-5 players. His issues whether they are still around or whether he keeps doing stupid things in front of the camera and in the public may hurt him.
To answer your question:
If we take Freo's team and drop Brown I would very much like to see if Gourdis can ignite something at AFL level, or possibly one from left field by putting in Alroy Gilligan. Just try something, even if you don't agree about the delisting surely you can see the positives by putting Brown in the rack and saving him for next year and see what the kids can do?
Bowden I think Post and/or Rance should be given games this year, with the backline at the moment that doesn't include Raines I think Joel woudl be the first to make way. Thursfield is on sketchy ground but shoudl be given a few games in a row to see how he's travelling.
And I'd keep Cousins.
So:
Brown - Gourdis, Gilligan - even a Rance up forward in Browns position could show us something differet
Bowden - Post, Rance
I don't enjoy saying it but it's for the best.
-
Tigermonk
Please correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that Joel wants to retire at the end of 09....
Yes Joel is playing well enough to go around next year BUT dont you think after the disaster that has been 09 its time to under go some short term pain for long term gain.(sorry to talk in cliches).
Joel playing next year might make us a better team in 2010.....I just think we will be better off in 2012/13/14 if he retires at the end of the year.
-
I agree we need to play kids for the rest of the season, and if we do that we should not win to many games.
We cannot afford to win games!
Sure we have some good kids on our list BUT lets not get all excited and think we are better than what we are. We need to finish bottom two, not win 5 games and get the extra early picks.
I think as a club we are learning from our mistakes, our recruiting is getting better and i think the days of picking up other clubs duds are over with TW gone. We need a young coach with fresh ideas to teach and communicate with our young list. We need to do what Melbourne is doing, lose but lose having a real crack with the kids. As a member i would be more than happy with that as long as i knew which way we were heading.
This season is gone, lets not do what we have done in the past and win meaningless games and end up ninth.
Bite the bullet people and lets work on getting a better list together and that starts at this years draft.
Also i think it's time to move on from blaming past coaches, administrations, draft selections and past players. We have an oppotunity to start fresh with a new YOUNG coach, some early draft picks (and also more resourses to be able to use them properly) and a very young list. They have to learn together, work together and grow together.
We as a club almost need to start from scratch and build a team and a club to go forward and not look back at our last 3 decades, if only to learn from our mistakes.
We as supporters are just as guilty for the culture that has been at our club for 30 years as the club itself, it's time for all of us to change that! :gotigers
-
the only senior players l said should be in the side are Bowden, Brown & Cousins, next year
Simmonds Johnson Richo are all injured & should retire
so who is good enough to push for Bowden, Brown & Cousins places next year, no-one deserves any of thier places because they aint pushed them out this year
Keep Bowden but retire Richo?
Now I've heard everything
Rance will take Bowden's spot in a heartbeat, in fact he should do so this week or next and keep it for the rest of the year
Brown has already been replaced by Morton & Nahas
Simmo & Johnson gone plus keep Cousins I agree
Using your same logic, who can take Richo's place in the side? Yet you want him gone?
Unbelievable
-
Good post BT.
Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting. We have a young core coming through but we need to add more classy youngsters and in particular a quality spine to it if we want to build and develop a premiership side. Finishing bottom 2 and getting 3 picks in the top 20 if obviously better than pick 8 come November. Three more months folks is hardly a long time to wait. We've already stuffed up the season being 2-8. Let's be pragmatic and patient and not stuff up the draft as well winning meaningless games against bottom sides that are tanking and we'll be competing against come draft time. For us in the situation we find ourselves now November is far more important than June-August.
As I said in Ramps's thread you not only play a younger and inexperienced side but you give more gametime in the midfield to 2nd and 3rd tier younger mids, or younger rucks, or younger KPPs, or you play kids on gun opposition players, or you put senior players carrying niggles in cotton wool for the rest of the season. Whatever you do, it lessens the chances of winning while at the same time giving their youngsters more valuable AFL experience in an effort to accelerate their development for next year and beyond. So even with kids you manipulate team selections and match-ups on the ground to get a "favourable" draft position.
-
Agree Big Tone.
Lets look at the Priority selections or thereabouts last few years;
2008:
17 PS Sam Blease
18 PS Luke Shuey both untried
2007:
18 PS Alex Rance tick
19 Callan Ward tick, who should've been ours anyway :banghead
2006:
17 PS Shaun Hampson, early days for a ruck but a tick so far
18 PS Leroy Jetta, looks like he will play 100 games, tick
Im a bit like CUB, my heart will always rule over my head on a gameday, but look at the evidence, we need a priority pick, and a bit of extra cream with a top 2 pick would be just nice thanks.
-
Tigermonk
Please correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that Joel wants to retire at the end of 09....
Yes Joel is playing well enough to go around next year BUT dont you think after the disaster that has been 09 its time to under go some short term pain for long term gain.(sorry to talk in cliches).
Joel playing next year might make us a better team in 2010.....I just think we will be better off in 2012/13/14 if he retires at the end of the year.
Yep Joel and Sugar are retiring at the end of the season.
The Club needs to focus on 2012-14 not 2010.
-
I agree we need to play kids for the rest of the season, and if we do that we should not win to many games.
We cannot afford to win games!
But how do you stop it? It could happen with blood and a new mindset
Good post BT.
Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting.
How can you say the club is being dumb recruiting wise if we play the kids and we get a few wins?
I think we all agree that we should play the kids.
But it appears to me you (BT & MT) are assumng that we wont win anymore than 4 games with the kids or alternatively you don't want us to win anymore than 4 games full stop.
I still come back to the same question what happens if we do?
Are people going to jump up and down and be critical because on the back of the youngsters we win games?
No matter how slim it may seem there is a possibility that we will win games and more than 4. Personally if it happens I don't see it as a bad thing
Do we say to these kids - sorry guys we don't want you to win, we don't want you start developing a winning culture, please tank for us but we will give you plenty of game time in the process?
-
I agree we need to play kids for the rest of the season, and if we do that we should not win to many games.
We cannot afford to win games!
But how do you stop it? It could happen with blood and a new mindset
Good post BT.
Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting.
How can you say the club is being dumb recruiting wise if we play the kids and we get a few wins?
I think we all agree that we should play the kids.
But it appears to me you (BT & MT) are assumng that we wont win anymore than 4 games with the kids or alternatively you don't want us to win anymore than 4 games full stop.
I still come back to the same question what happens if we do?
Are people going to jump up and down and be critical because on the back of the youngsters we win games?
No matter how slim it may seem there is a possibility that we will win games and more than 4. Personally if it happens I don't see it as a bad thing
Do we say to these kids - sorry guys we don't want you to win, we don't want you start developing a winning culture, please tank for us but we will give you plenty of game time in the process?
Come on WP, you are smarter than that (i hope). You don't say anything of the sort to these kids. You do as Infamy said- you minipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. It's a lot easier to lose games than win them.
So to answer your question- yes i would prefer not to win more than five games and get some nice picks for doing so. As well as give our younger players more experience.
Short term pain for hopefully long term gain, to me it's well worth a try!
-
I agree we need to play kids for the rest of the season, and if we do that we should not win to many games.
We cannot afford to win games!
But how do you stop it? It could happen with blood and a new mindset
Good post BT.
Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting.
How can you say the club is being dumb recruiting wise if we play the kids and we get a few wins?
I think we all agree that we should play the kids.
But it appears to me you (BT & MT) are assumng that we wont win anymore than 4 games with the kids or alternatively you don't want us to win anymore than 4 games full stop.
I still come back to the same question what happens if we do?
Are people going to jump up and down and be critical because on the back of the youngsters we win games?
No matter how slim it may seem there is a possibility that we will win games and more than 4. Personally if it happens I don't see it as a bad thing
Do we say to these kids - sorry guys we don't want you to win, we don't want you start developing a winning culture, please tank for us but we will give you plenty of game time in the process?
We agree Bowden, Simmonds, Pettifer, King.. are not kids
yes?
-
Good post BT.
Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting. We have a young core coming through but we need to add more classy youngsters and in particular a quality spine to it if we want to build and develop a premiership side. Finishing bottom 2 and getting 3 picks in the top 20 if obviously better than pick 8 come November. Three more months folks is hardly a long time to wait. We've already stuffed up the season being 2-8. Let's be pragmatic and patient and not stuff up the draft as well winning meaningless games against bottom sides that are tanking and we'll be competing against come draft time. For us in the situation we find ourselves now November is far more important than June-August.
As I said in Ramps's thread you not only play a younger and inexperienced side but you give more gametime in the midfield to 2nd and 3rd tier younger mids, or younger rucks, or younger KPPs, or you play kids on gun opposition players, or you put senior players carrying niggles in cotton wool for the rest of the season. Whatever you do, it lessens the chances of winning while at the same time giving their youngsters more valuable AFL experience in an effort to accelerate their development for next year and beyond. So even with kids you manipulate team selections and match-ups on the ground to get a "favourable" draft position.
Amen, to MT and BT plus I'm sure Stripes,Ramps and others would all agree that short term pain will be in our best long term interest. Just hope they give the interim coach the same instructions they gave Ratten.
-
Good post BT.
Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting.
How can you say the club is being dumb recruiting wise if we play the kids and we get a few wins?
I think we all agree that we should play the kids.
But it appears to me you (BT & MT) are assumng that we wont win anymore than 4 games with the kids or alternatively you don't want us to win anymore than 4 games full stop.
I still come back to the same question what happens if we do?
Are people going to jump up and down and be critical because on the back of the youngsters we win games?
No matter how slim it may seem there is a possibility that we will win games and more than 4. Personally if it happens I don't see it as a bad thing
Do we say to these kids - sorry guys we don't want you to win, we don't want you start developing a winning culture, please tank for us but we will give you plenty of game time in the process?
It would prove the Board and match committee are dumb because it will show they can't see the big picture. I don't see how having say a 4-8 record instead of a 2-10 record in the remaining 12 weeks will suddenly develop us a winning culture. It would though cost us at draft time. Giving up a freebie early pick for 2 meaningless extra wins makes no sense to me whatsoever. I can however see how having classier players and a stronger list will make us a better and more successful side. We need to get the cattle first. Yes we've got the basis of a young core but we need to add far more class and structure to it and the reality of the draft is the more talented kids are found with early pics. Those say 2 extra wins will be forgotten in 6 months time. However the kid we get with the priority pick (Alex Rance was our last PP) may be with us for the next 10 years. It's all about the big picture WP.
As for the kids - Yes we all agree to play them however as BT said you don't say anything to the players about tanking because players don't tank. Clubs and coaches (Worsfold is the latest) do tank. You manipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. You try to remain competitive for 3 to 3.5 quarters but you don't win.
-
Amen, to MT and BT plus I'm sure Stripes,Ramps and others would all agree that short term pain will be in our best long term interest. Just hope they give the interim coach the same instructions they gave Ratten.
They could only give Ratten those instructions because he had already been promised the senior gig. Do you think that we are going to do the same and if so, are you happy to have Rawlings, Campbell or King as our next senior coach without considering any other potential candidates? You can bet London to a brick that if they can't promise the caretaker the job next year then he will go hell for leather to win if he has designs on next year's job.
-
Agree with playing the kids.
To address your question directly WP, here is my order of preference:
Best case scenario: Play the kids, tell em to have a red hot go but go down fighting each week, they gain confidence that they will be future AFL players, we get the picks.
Scenario #2: Play the kids and the kids do alright and start playing well, getting over the line a few times and showing the footy dept and potential coaches we have a decent list to work with. Gain even more confidence at the expense of priority pick.
Scenario #3: Play the kids tell them to win and they get thumped week in week out. Confidence lost and early doubts in their minds about themselves and their teammates ability to make it.
Scenario #4: Play the kids and tell them the result is not important as we really want the draft picks. The kids don't become disciplined and don't become hardwired with a winning mentality.
-
Clubs and coaches (Worsfold is the latest) do tank. You manipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. You try to remain competitive for 3 to 3.5 quarters but you don't win.
Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.
-
Flogging a dead horse people.
All fingers are pointing in the Campbell direction.
As if they would choose one of King, McCrae even Rawlings for that matter when you have the former club champion standing their waiting for the gig.
-
Come on WP, you are smarter than that (i hope). You don't say anything of the sort to these kids. You do as Infamy said- you minipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. It's a lot easier to lose games than win them.
So to answer your question- yes i would prefer not to win more than five games and get some nice picks for doing so. As well as give our younger players more experience.
Short term pain for hopefully long term gain, to me it's well worth a try!
BT: If you play the kids and I am sure we are all on the same page here in that we want the kids to play ahead of the senior guys but there is a chance that the kids are going to win you more than the 4 games.
When you have kids wanting to improve, wanting to compete, wanting to impress they are going to want to win. And they will go hell for leather to do that. I don't think it is as easy to manipulate
Believe me I understand your point of view but the question I originally asked still remains how will people react to it? My question wasn't so much about should we or shouldn't we tank it was about what happens if the results dont go the tanking way
It would prove the Board and match committee are dumb because it will show they can't see the big picture. I don't see how having say a 4-8 record instead of a 2-10 record in the remaining 12 weeks will suddenly develop us a winning culture. It would though cost us at draft time. Giving up a freebie early pick for 2 meaningless extra wins makes no sense to me whatsoever. I can however see how having classier players and a stronger list will make us a better and more successful side. We need to get the cattle first. Yes we've got the basis of a young core but we need to add far more class and structure to it and the reality of the draft is the more talented kids are found with early pics. Those say 2 extra wins will be forgotten in 6 months time. However the kid we get with the priority pick (Alex Rance was our last PP) may be with us for the next 10 years. It's all about the big picture WP.
I understand the big picture MT. But as I said above we are talking about kids who just want to win and I don't think stopping the natural instincts of a young group of players is as easy as it sounds especially when you have a coach trying to win a senior gig
Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.
I think you are right there Smokey
-
Believe me I understand your point of view but the question I originally asked still remains how will people react to it? My question wasn't so much about should we or shouldn't we tank it was about what happens if the results dont go the tanking way
Should be interesting games vs West Coast * 2 and Melbourne, it will be like who can tank the most. We haven't been too good at winning can we do better at tanking and keep in mind Melbourne and West coast have been doing it longer than most. There will be hacks galore on the ground and a star studded bench.
-
I understand the big picture MT. But as I said above we are talking about kids who just want to win and I don't think stopping the natural instincts of a young group of players is as easy as it sounds especially when you have a coach trying to win a senior gig
They might pinch a win or two (we can 'afford' 2 more wins) but a team of mostly young, inexperienced and undeveloped bodies no matter how keen and eager are unlikely to win too many games. The Dees are having a red hot go but have only one win on the board. As for the West Coast tankers they aren't struggling to lose either.
As for manipulation - if a young player is having a day out then at half-time you move him onto the opposition's star player. I remember when we played the Eagles at their peak Wallace moved Sugar off a well-held Judd and gave a young Lids a quarter to run with the Brownlow medallist to give Brett that experience. In that 3rd quarter Judd had 13 disposals and kicked 3 goals. It can be done and we weren't even tanking that day. Likewise Ratten pulled off Fev, Stevens and Murphy with 15 minutes to go against the Pies and didn't put them back on even as the Pies overran them.
Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.
Unless they've been told they won't be getting the gig and it's just a fill in role. In any case it's not the coach's decision. The direction has to come from higher up the chain = the Board and footy dept. head manager.
-
West coast is in our hands and will be a light on how the assistant coach and club will go since that will be the gigs first challenge. If they beat us twice then they'll have 5 wins and it stops them from getting a priority pick before the first round.
I think Melbourne won't get to 4 or 5 wins anyway even if they do beat us so they'll get their priority picks anyway.
I think if we give goodbye games to a few of the 30+ lads let it be the Pies in round 20. Home game for us so therefore use the game as a grand final for us and a goodbye to whoever retires and try to
a) Get as many people through the gate
b) If we have 3 or less wins try and win and hopefully wreck the Pies top 4 or top 8 chances whilst not compromising our priority pick come November.
So in summary use the 2 Eagles games to ensure the Eagles get two wins and get to 5 wins for the season to ensure they don't get a priority pick. Simple really.
-
Should be interesting games vs West Coast * 2 and Melbourne, it will be like who can tank the most. We haven't been too good at winning can we do better at tanking and keep in mind Melbourne and West coast have been doing it longer than most. There will be hacks galore on the ground and a star studded bench.
LOL it's a joke of a draft system isn't it. It's sad when our best interests are to especially lose these 3 specific games. Us losing both times to the Eagles eliminates their chance of a priority pick (so their PP as well as ours is in our hands) and losing to Melbourne again could see us with a top 2 pick.
-
Should be interesting games vs West Coast * 2 and Melbourne, it will be like who can tank the most. We haven't been too good at winning can we do better at tanking and keep in mind Melbourne and West coast have been doing it longer than most. There will be hacks galore on the ground and a star studded bench.
LOL it's a joke of a draft system isn't it. It's sad when our best interests are to especially lose these 3 specific games. Us losing both times to the Eagles eliminates their chance of a priority pick (so their PP as well as ours is in our hands) and losing to Melbourne again could see us with a top 2 pick.
Reality is that this is the last year of proper tanking for a number of years for all clubs. I say tank like you have never tanked and from next year - whether we are in the bottom or not - play every game like winning is the only thing (thanks Cuz). Because we MUST stop the systematic losing for our own good as a club and because the benefits of tanking will be significantly diluted tanks (sic) to the new clubs coming into the comp.
-
Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.
Unless they've been told they won't be getting the gig and it's just a fill in role. In any case it's not the coach's decision. The direction has to come from higher up the chain = the Board and footy dept. head manager.
Yep, all comes down to whether we have senior aspirants in our assistant ranks - my stab in the dark would be 3 out of 4 are. And if you had senior ambitions and was offered a caretaker role under the strict direction to tank and with no guarantee of a senior job next year would you take it? I can't think of any aspiring coach in their right mind that would.
-
Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.
Unless they've been told they won't be getting the gig and it's just a fill in role. In any case it's not the coach's decision. The direction has to come from higher up the chain = the Board and footy dept. head manager.
Yep, all comes down to whether we have senior aspirants in our assistant ranks - my stab in the dark would be 3 out of 4 are. And if you had senior ambitions and was offered a caretaker role under the strict direction to tank and with no guarantee of a senior job next year would you take it? I can't think of any aspiring coach in their right mind that would.
Rawlings - as Coburg/development coach will he still be around next year in either of those roles? If we were to tank then Coburg wins the VFL flag does that hurt his future coaching chances?
McRae - development coach. Too early to be considered for a senior position. May head elsewhere for an assistant coaching role (GC?).
Campbell - assistant coach who does have ambitions to be coach. Yeah won't touch it unless it came with a guarantee he's got the gig next year.
King - assistant coach who most likely won't be around next year. I don't feel we'll consider him for the senior gig.
Royal - not being considered and gone at the end of the year.
Out of our existing coaches I think we only have our eye on Cambo knowing the RFC. His competition for the senior job next year you'd expect will come from outsiders.
-
Tigermonk
Please correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that Joel wants to retire at the end of 09....
Yes Joel is playing well enough to go around next year BUT dont you think after the disaster that has been 09 its time to under go some short term pain for long term gain.(sorry to talk in cliches).
Joel playing next year might make us a better team in 2010.....I just think we will be better off in 2012/13/14 if he retires at the end of the year.
Yep Joel and Sugar are retiring at the end of the season.
The Club needs to focus on 2012-14 not 2010.
who said Joel Bowden is retiring at the end of this year, has Joel came out & said his retiring
-
I understand your a big fan of these players as am I, it kills me to see Bowden and Richo be in there twilights and be robbed of ultimate success and see someone like Cam Mooney the worlds worst every forward walk in 2 premierships with his pants down and could have been 3 and will play in his 4th this year. It genuinely kills me.
l like Mooney he has flair which we lack, players think twice when playing on the loose canon
I think the reality is that In looking at the list you have to assess each one individually. (And I will get to your question in a sec)
1 sec up ;D
Kane Johnson = Injured since Geez has been born, gone. retired end of season gone
Troy Simmonds = Has lost pace dramatically and his strength isn't the same of 2 years ago and his leap is non existent. retired end of season gone
Nathan Brown = Has he kicked more than 4 goals a game since his broken leg? His body just keeps breaking down and can't string more than 4 games together and I don't think he's played 2 certainly not 3 good games in a row. can play another year but would need a good last half to the season
Joel Bowden = Honestly is notorious for bad starts to the season and would in teh bracket between 16th and 22nd picked in the squad. Think his body woudl hold up but I woudl like his responisbiility in teh backline to be transfered to McGuane or Moore. Wallace said he would play him forward but injuries & players unable to do the task ;D he was sent back again. Richmond drafts have cost us bigtime in the backline, mid size backmen have fallen apart like Newman, Joel is playing better football than Newman & l agree he starts poor & if a new coach told him to retire or move on l would except that decision
Matthew Richardson = Would be devastated if he wasn't resigned. I think it will come down to his body and he may be saved with not being properly fit around the time f the decision being made and will get given a lifeline. Whetehr he plays or not will depend on whether he can get 100% fit. This l agree he takes it year by year & gee l love the big fella but l dont think his body will let him go on. We need a sharp shooter in the forward-line but who is going to replace his workrate. Players need to lift a level & Hughes was his replacement but injuries to him busted the plans at RFC
Ben Cousins = Can still play and if fully fit woudl possibly be in our best 3-5 players. His issues whether they are still around or whether he keeps doing stupid things in front of the camera and in the public may hurt him. Champion which will still be playing another 2 years
To answer your question:
If we take Freo's team and drop Brown I would very much like to see if Gourdis can ignite something at AFL level, or possibly one from left field by putting in Alroy Gilligan. Just try something, even if you don't agree about the delisting surely you can see the positives by putting Brown in the rack and saving him for next year and see what the kids can do?
Both these players spend more time in the Coburg Reserves & maybe damaged goods
Bowden I think Post and/or Rance should be given games this year, with the backline at the moment that doesn't include Raines I think Joel woudl be the first to make way. Thursfield is on sketchy ground but shoudl be given a few games in a row to see how he's travelling.
l forgot to add Rance in my list as cemented players & has taken the spot of Raines who is one of the worst footballers l ever seen. Trade him to another club. Thursfield has been injured in the past & is very slow recovering form. l would just play him rest of the year he will return to form or breakdown
And I'd keep Cousins.
So:
Brown - Gourdis, Gilligan - even a Rance up forward in Browns position could show us something differet
Bowden - Post, Rance
Bowden should be the hitter up the ground, as stated above on Rance.
I don't enjoy saying it but it's for the best.
nice spelling mate but l understood what you trying to say ;D
-
the only senior players l said should be in the side are Bowden, Brown & Cousins, next year
Simmonds Johnson Richo are all injured & should retire
so who is good enough to push for Bowden, Brown & Cousins places next year, no-one deserves any of thier places because they aint pushed them out this year
Keep Bowden but retire Richo?
Now I've heard everything
Rance will take Bowden's spot in a heartbeat, in fact he should do so this week or next and keep it for the rest of the year
Brown has already been replaced by Morton & Nahas
Simmo & Johnson gone plus keep Cousins I agree
Using your same logic, who can take Richo's place in the side? Yet you want him gone?
Unbelievable
l knew you were about at the time Imfamy & you are the biggest Bowden snapper on this board. you bite the fingers off Chris Lewis the finger biter himself
when you use the term players have already taken the spots of other players ::) then why is Brown & Bowden still playing
Richo your right l baited you nicely with that one :clapping l love big Richo he puts himself before the team by playing injured & thats one thing l dont like.
Hope he does play 1 more year as he deserves his team-mates to carry him but he must kick the goals or retire & take something for his crowd anxiety before the game. Replacement l cant find anyone at the club who would go close. will leave a huge hole as you cannot replace a champion with champion, you will never find another huge man like Richo
Rance has taken Raines spot not Bowden spot. Would you keep Raines ;D seriously answer this
-
Rawlings - as Coburg/development coach will he still be around next year in either of those roles? If we were to tank then Coburg wins the VFL flag does that hurt his future coaching chances? Yes it will, especially if we are true to our word and engage a third party to find the next coach - Slade I believe it is? He is already largely linked to the failure of this group to 'come on' and tanking will just top his chances off nicely - not. And honestly, can you see Coburg winning the flag?
McRae - development coach. Too early to be considered for a senior position. May head elsewhere for an assistant coaching role (GC?). Still has aspirations. Won't want the caretaker role if he has to tank without a guarantee.
Campbell - assistant coach who does have ambitions to be coach. Yeah won't touch it unless it came with a guarantee he's got the gig next year. Correct.
........
There's my 3 as I said. And I stand by my point - none of them will want the role and accept being directed to tank if it doesn't come with some sort of guarantee, and we can't guarantee anyone anything if we are publicly hanging our hat on due process and the use of an external agency.
Out of our existing coaches I think we only have our eye on Cambo knowing the RFC. His competition for the senior job next year you'd expect will come from outsiders.
I agree. I think he is the only one they are considering for next year from the current group but if he is as hard and smart as we are told then he will be way too smart to accept the caretaker role with tanking without an ironclad guarantee.
-
Come on WP, you are smarter than that (i hope). You don't say anything of the sort to these kids. You do as Infamy said- you minipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. It's a lot easier to lose games than win them.
So to answer your question- yes i would prefer not to win more than five games and get some nice picks for doing so. As well as give our younger players more experience.
Short term pain for hopefully long term gain, to me it's well worth a try!
BT: If you play the kids and I am sure we are all on the same page here in that we want the kids to play ahead of the senior guys but there is a chance that the kids are going to win you more than the 4 games.
When you have kids wanting to improve, wanting to compete, wanting to impress they are going to want to win. And they will go hell for leather to do that. I don't think it is as easy to manipulate
Believe me I understand your point of view but the question I originally asked still remains how will people react to it? My question wasn't so much about should we or shouldn't we tank it was about what happens if the results dont go the tanking way
It would prove the Board and match committee are dumb because it will show they can't see the big picture. I don't see how having say a 4-8 record instead of a 2-10 record in the remaining 12 weeks will suddenly develop us a winning culture. It would though cost us at draft time. Giving up a freebie early pick for 2 meaningless extra wins makes no sense to me whatsoever. I can however see how having classier players and a stronger list will make us a better and more successful side. We need to get the cattle first. Yes we've got the basis of a young core but we need to add far more class and structure to it and the reality of the draft is the more talented kids are found with early pics. Those say 2 extra wins will be forgotten in 6 months time. However the kid we get with the priority pick (Alex Rance was our last PP) may be with us for the next 10 years. It's all about the big picture WP.
I understand the big picture MT. But as I said above we are talking about kids who just want to win and I don't think stopping the natural instincts of a young group of players is as easy as it sounds especially when you have a coach trying to win a senior gig
Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.
I think you are right there Smokey
WP,
Do you think we could win any game with a side like this? (slight exaggeration)
Polo Silvester Thursfield
Rance Post Tambling
Collins Cotchin Edwards
Conners Putt Riewolt
Nahas Vickory Gourdis
On Ballers- Graham Thomson Deledio
Bench- Browne Hislop Jackson Pattison
Other players like Cousins, Foley, McGuane, Moore, Morton, Newman, and Tuck to play some weeks especially the really young ones to get games into them but whenever we even look like winning take them off for a well earnt rest!
(side made up of players that should be still on our list next year or untried players that might be)
Get the picture!!!! :thumbsup
-
Tigermonk
Please correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that Joel wants to retire at the end of 09....
Yes Joel is playing well enough to go around next year BUT dont you think after the disaster that has been 09 its time to under go some short term pain for long term gain.(sorry to talk in cliches).
Joel playing next year might make us a better team in 2010.....I just think we will be better off in 2012/13/14 if he retires at the end of the year.
Yep Joel and Sugar are retiring at the end of the season.
The Club needs to focus on 2012-14 not 2010.
who said Joel Bowden is retiring at the end of this year, has Joel came out & said his retiring
lets hope so
-
Lets not forget that we could send players off to have required opps so they recover and are cherry ripe for next year.
-
Lets not forget that we could send players off to have required opps so they recover and are cherry ripe for next year.
Could we as a rule not use the term Cherry Ripe on this website.
I'm still haunted by it and refuse to eat them today. Move on please people. :rollin
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
I'll be happy if we play the kids and they TRY to win as many games as they can.
I won't be happy if the caretaker allows them to.
Last untarnished draft..we need to utilise the system.
Heaven knows we need more talent.
-
Lets not forget that we could send players off to have required opps so they recover and are cherry ripe for next year.
Where can we send them to get a lobotomy?
-
Rawlings - as Coburg/development coach will he still be around next year in either of those roles? If we were to tank then Coburg wins the VFL flag does that hurt his future coaching chances? Yes it will, especially if we are true to our word and engage a third party to find the next coach - Slade I believe it is? He is already largely linked to the failure of this group to 'come on' and tanking will just top his chances off nicely - not. And honestly, can you see Coburg winning the flag?
Coburg are currently 3rd and playing great footy. Massive test this weekend against North Ballarat.
Can they win the flag? If the keep playing like they are at the minute - they are a chance.
They are definitely a show for a top 4 finish. I am not sure about the arguement about being him tied to failure as he has only been there 2 years (this is his 3rd and first in development role at the RFC).
McRae - development coach. Too early to be considered for a senior position. May head elsewhere for an assistant coaching role (GC?). Still has aspirations. Won't want the caretaker role if he has to tank without a guarantee.
Is any interesting one IMO - does he actually have aspirations to be senior coach? Has he actually ever said that?
Campbell - assistant coach who does have ambitions to be coach. Yeah won't touch it unless it came with a guarantee he's got the gig next year. Correct.
........
There's my 3 as I said. And I stand by my point - none of them will want the role and accept being directed to tank if it doesn't come with some sort of guarantee, and we can't guarantee anyone anything if we are publicly hanging our hat on due process and the use of an external agency.
My view is if Campbell was offered the caretake role he must take it....
Which leaves King & Royal - not sure about King
If you want to give it to someone who is absolutely NO chance for the gig in 2010 then Brian's the man ;D
For mine it's out of Campbell & Rawlings for caretaker
Full time 2010 and beyond ... that's a debate for another time ;D
-
Coburg are currently 3rd and playing great footy. Massive test this weekend against North Ballarat.
Can they win the flag? If the keep playing like they are at the minute - they are a chance.
They are definitely a show for a top 4 finish.
I certainly respect your opinion on this WP because you see most Coburg games and I see very few but I don't see them as good as the side that made the finals a couple of years ago and blew it. Would love to see them win it but if we tank is their current form going to hold up?
I am not sure about the arguement about being him tied to failure as he has only been there 2 years (this is his 3rd and first in development role at the RFC).
Reality-wise no, but guilty by association yes, and in this industry it is very hard to remove sticky mud.
My view is if Campbell was offered the caretake role he must take it....
Which leaves King & Royal - not sure about King
If you want to give it to someone who is absolutely NO chance for the gig in 2010 then Brian's the man ;D
For mine it's out of Campbell & Rawlings for caretaker
Full time 2010 and beyond ... that's a debate for another time ;D
Which brings us back to my point - unless we give the gig to King or Royal, can you honestly see any of the others accepting a caretaker role and being told to tank without a guarantee of coaching next year. I can't.
-
I certainly respect your opinion on this WP because you see most Coburg games and I see very few but I don't see them as good as the side that made the finals a couple of years ago and blew it. Would love to see them win it but if we tank is their current form going to hold up?
I actually see the Coburg list as being better this year than last year and as good as it was when they made a GF under Andy Collins. It is the strength of the Coburg list that will determine how hfar they go in finals as the 12/10 rule apllies
Would think if the RFC tank (which I am against) Smokey then Coburgs form will be fantastic with the players that will be there ;D
Which brings us back to my point - unless we give the gig to King or Royal, can you honestly see any of the others accepting a caretaker role and being told to tank without a guarantee of coaching next year. I can't.
I agree with you.....as I said Royal is the logical choice if you want to have some now who has no chance of being there in 2010
-
Royal is off to the Gold Coast with Terry and Clayton going by KB's show.
WP I found out today at training how some supporters react when you mention you're in favour of the "T" word. I'll just say one in particular that I know didn't take too enthusiastically to the idea to say the least :rollin.
-
Would think if the RFC tank (which I am against) Smokey then Coburgs form will be fantastic with the players that will be there ;D
I have a suspicion that if we decide to tank (and it becomes obvious to the players) then we might see a couple of mid-season retirements. Don't know if all our vets will be as committed to the long term club goals as some have been in the past.
And I hope you are dead right about Coburg's current list - bode's well for the future.
-
Serious question
What happens if our caretaker plays all the kids and we win games?
This is likely to be what he is instructed to do - play the kids
But what about the wins if they happen?
And I don't mean 1 or 2 wins
I am talking about 6 or 7
So many on here want to tank but what happens if the kids get us more than 4 wins?
How will people react?
I know I will be happy with a win no matter who is on the feild.
I rather had a red hot go and lose with kids, than what we have been doing.
I hate the tanking crap 100%.