One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: the claw on February 21, 2010, 11:25:42 AM
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ive gone thru other teams kpds basically fb chb and almost to a team mcguane does not rate against them.
an example is bock rutten at the crows. sheesh hes light yrs away from these two.
obviously rutten is the big monster defender something mcguane will never be so hes ruled out of half the options because most clubs have one big kpd. so clearly he would be up against bock. he loses easily.
its a common theme thru most teams.
do the exercise and be honest.
to me it clearly shows to catch other sides up we have to change.
for me theres no place for him as a kpp i will do the same exercise looking at tall running backs.but already i prefer moore in front of mcguane for this role. even though kelvin has not done a lot over the entirety of his career.
of the top of my head tall running backs in front of mcguane would be
birchall mackie, bower, hargrave gilbert cornes i will have to look into it. but look at those few mentioned and the difference in skill levels between them and mcguane.
anyway have to go for awhile just some food for thought.
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in what way? height , weight or performance.
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in what way? height , weight or performance.
everything strengths, weakness, height, which is okay. weight which is not there to play kp. smarts, pace, agility, run, skills, experience, upside, performance sheesh a lot of ferals will have us believe hes been marvelous when hes been nothing short of ordinary. yep everything look at it all.
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Nathan Bock will be 27 at the start of this season after being drafted in 2001 and didn't have a proper break out year and full season until he was 24 years old in his 7th year (and he bashes his girlfriend)
Luke McGuane had a comparable season to Bock's 7th year in 2009, he had his first year of 22 games, got just as much of the ball and he was only in his 5th year as a 22 years old.
He was also in a far weaker team with far less help down back from team mates, yet was 2 years younger and had less years in the system.
I understand Bock has had some injury, yet McGuane's first year was pretty much a write off after breaking his upper arm in a match which finished his season.
Stop comparing our kids to mature players from top sides when they are still kids. You do this consistently. I understand that this is the level we want them to get to, however we can't expect them to be there instantly, it doesn't work that way.
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This thread should be titled 'I'm Claw and my personal dislike for Mcguane off field, influences my thoughts of him off field' 8)
LOOK AT HIS LAST 2 SEASONS AND SEE HOW MANY GOALS HAVE BEEN KICKED ON HIM BY HIS CURRENT OPPONENT IN EVERY GAME AND COME BACK TO US :)
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And stop trying to rate him as a KPP when we both debated that on another thread and agreed that he wasn't one.
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And stop trying to rate him as a KPP when we both debated that on another thread and agreed that he wasn't one.
the idea is to get some sort of consensus that he is not a kpp. we can then compare him to the running third talls of the comp.
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And stop trying to rate him as a KPP when we both debated that on another thread and agreed that he wasn't one.
the idea is to get some sort of consensus that he is not a kpp. we can then compare him to the running third talls of the comp.
Why? I don't think you will find anyone on here that thinks he is a KPP, or should be. You might find many are sympathetic to his plight because he was another one who was very unfairly burdened by the haphazard approach to team structure, selection and development under the previous coaching regime. Judge him as a running tall against other running talls of similar age and experience, nothing else, and let's see what come of it.
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Nathan Bock will be 27 at the start of this season after being drafted in 2001 and didn't have a proper break out year and full season until he was 24 years old in his 7th year (and he bashes his girlfriend)
Luke McGuane had a comparable season to Bock's 7th year in 2009, he had his first year of 22 games, got just as much of the ball and he was only in his 5th year as a 22 years old.
He was also in a far weaker team with far less help down back from team mates, yet was 2 years younger and had less years in the system.
I understand Bock has had some injury, yet McGuane's first year was pretty much a write off after breaking his upper arm in a match which finished his season.
Stop comparing our kids to mature players from top sides when they are still kids. You do this consistently. I understand that this is the level we want them to get to, however we can't expect them to be there instantly, it doesn't work that way.
hmm interesting take. why do we always have to gloss over things in favour of our players.
in 2001 he was busy representing sa at the u18 champs. bock was promoted from the rookie list to the list proper for 2003 at age 20.
he spent the 03 season at woodville where he established himself at chb against men.
he made his senior debut rnd 5 2004. and stayed for the remainder of the yr.
his 05 season was outstanding holding down chb and played a big role in their rise to finals. all this in just his 3rd yr on the list proper starting the season with just 18 games to his credit and at age 22.
his 06 was ruined with stress fractures to his lower back he managed just 7 games taking his games tally to 41. but when he came back late in the yr he showed his versatility by kicking goals up forward.
07 he played mainly forward kicking 29 goals had a very consistant yr.
08 outstanding won their b/f and passed the 50 game mark. AA at age 25.
09 sheesh and you say mcguane had a comparable yr now that is laughable. while i will concede mcguane had some good games in the 22 he played the comparison between the two is typical over rating our own stuff.
i believe Bock missed 8 games thru injury or suspension and the two finals. even in missing 8 games bock would have it all over mcguane stats wise. and this holding down a kp.
mcguane is no baby its laughable to lump him in the kid category sheesh he enters his 6th yr after being mostly mediocre in his first 5. his record is ordinary and hes always been a class level below bock.i know which one i would take at any stage of their respective careers.
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And stop trying to rate him as a KPP when we both debated that on another thread and agreed that he wasn't one.
the idea is to get some sort of consensus that he is not a kpp. we can then compare him to the running third talls of the comp.
Why? I don't think you will find anyone on here that thinks he is a KPP, or should be. You might find many are sympathetic to his plight because he was another one who was very unfairly burdened by the haphazard approach to team structure, selection and development under the previous coaching regime. Judge him as a running tall against other running talls of similar age and experience, nothing else, and let's see what come of it.
hmm to be honest you and i are the only two people on any forum ive been on who says mcguane is not a kpp.
but your right wallace did him no favours at any other club he would not have got a game.
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Nathan Bock will be 27 at the start of this season after being drafted in 2001 and didn't have a proper break out year and full season until he was 24 years old in his 7th year (and he bashes his girlfriend)
Luke McGuane had a comparable season to Bock's 7th year in 2009, he had his first year of 22 games, got just as much of the ball and he was only in his 5th year as a 22 years old.
He was also in a far weaker team with far less help down back from team mates, yet was 2 years younger and had less years in the system.
I understand Bock has had some injury, yet McGuane's first year was pretty much a write off after breaking his upper arm in a match which finished his season.
Stop comparing our kids to mature players from top sides when they are still kids. You do this consistently. I understand that this is the level we want them to get to, however we can't expect them to be there instantly, it doesn't work that way.
hmm interesting take. why do we always have to gloss over things in favour of our players.
in 2001 he was busy representing sa at the u18 champs. bock was promoted from the rookie list to the list proper for 2003 at age 20.
he spent the 03 season at woodville where he established himself at chb against men.
he made his senior debut rnd 5 2004. and stayed for the remainder of the yr.
his 05 season was outstanding holding down chb and played a big role in their rise to finals. all this in just his 3rd yr on the list proper starting the season with just 18 games to his credit and at age 22.
his 06 was ruined with stress fractures to his lower back he managed just 7 games taking his games tally to 41. but when he came back late in the yr he showed his versatility by kicking goals up forward.
07 he played mainly forward kicking 29 goals had a very consistant yr.
08 outstanding won their b/f and passed the 50 game mark. AA at age 25.
09 sheesh and you say mcguane had a comparable yr now that is laughable. while i will concede mcguane had some good games in the 22 he played the comparison between the two is typical over rating our own stuff.
i believe Bock missed 8 games thru injury or suspension and the two finals. even in missing 8 games bock would have it all over mcguane stats wise. and this holding down a kp.
mcguane is no baby its laughable to lump him in the kid category sheesh he enters his 6th yr after being mostly mediocre in his first 5. his record is ordinary and hes always been a class level below bock.i know which one i would take at any stage of their respective careers.
As I said, he was drafted in 2001, not sure what the fact he was playing U18s for SA has to do with anything
Didn't break into the Crows senior side for 2 years, 2002 & 2003
Got the call up in 2004 as a forward under Gary Ayres and played 10 games for 8 goals until Neil Craig took over and send him into defence
2005 he missed the first 3rd of the season, however his year was solid, however it helps when you have that year's AA full back in Ben Rutten to help you out, something McGuane doesn't have and never has
2006 was pretty much a write off due to injury
So as I said, Rutten didn't have a full and proper break out season until 2007, as a 24 year old. His 2005 was good, however he didn't play the whole year and had a lot of help
McGuane is still only 22 and doesn't have a full back like Ben Rutten to help him out
Which gets me back to the point of comparing a 22 year old who you don't believe is a kpd who has been playing as a kpd with little assistance from team mates and doing a pretty decent job of doing it considering what he has to work with, to a 27 year old from a team who has been playing finals every year since 2005 along side an AA full back, a Brownlow medalist and a future AA back pocket.
Give me a break, your bias is just off the scale on this one
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McGuane is not a KPP. He is a running defender. Maybe we need a poll on this thread claw.
He will always be a wiry type but he has put on considerable bulk since coming to the club as this pic I took of him in 2007 shows.
Luke in 2007
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1347/p3030116xj2.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/p3030116xj2.jpg/)
Luke in 2009
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/4257/mcguane1.jpg) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/mcguane1.jpg/)
Looks like pretty solid development in 2 years to me. But he will never be a Rutten.
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McGuane is not a KPP. He is a running defender. Maybe we need a poll on this thread claw.
He will always be a wiry type but he has put on considerable bulk since coming to the club as this pic I took of him in 2007 shows.
Luke in 2007
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1347/p3030116xj2.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/p3030116xj2.jpg/)
Luke in 2009
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/4257/mcguane1.jpg) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/mcguane1.jpg/)
Looks like pretty solid development in 2 years to me. But he will never be a Rutten.
Good. Rutten is a snail
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McGuane is not a KPP. He is a running defender. Maybe we need a poll on this thread claw.
He will always be a wiry type but he has put on considerable bulk since coming to the club as this pic I took of him in 2007 shows.
Luke in 2007
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1347/p3030116xj2.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/p3030116xj2.jpg/)
Luke in 2009
(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/4257/mcguane1.jpg) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/mcguane1.jpg/)
Looks like pretty solid development in 2 years to me. But he will never be a Rutten.
thats just it though. i dont rate him as either kp or running defender.
and what development have a good look at him skinny legs narrow hips long torso your right he will never be a rutten or have the tools to genuinly match it with the big boys.
if people think hes an option for a running defender well i will give up. what attributes does one need to play this role and how many does mcguane have and do well. its mindboggling that people keep rating this scmuck.
as far as your pics go in 07 he officially weighed 86kg. in 09 he weighed you guessed it 86kg ive hardly seen any improvement in this area outside of his first season and the weights given for each yr back this up.
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Nathan Bock will be 27 at the start of this season after being drafted in 2001 and didn't have a proper break out year and full season until he was 24 years old in his 7th year (and he bashes his girlfriend)
Luke McGuane had a comparable season to Bock's 7th year in 2009, he had his first year of 22 games, got just as much of the ball and he was only in his 5th year as a 22 years old.
He was also in a far weaker team with far less help down back from team mates, yet was 2 years younger and had less years in the system.
I understand Bock has had some injury, yet McGuane's first year was pretty much a write off after breaking his upper arm in a match which finished his season.
Stop comparing our kids to mature players from top sides when they are still kids. You do this consistently. I understand that this is the level we want them to get to, however we can't expect them to be there instantly, it doesn't work that way.
hmm interesting take. why do we always have to gloss over things in favour of our players.
in 2001 he was busy representing sa at the u18 champs. bock was promoted from the rookie list to the list proper for 2003 at age 20.
he spent the 03 season at woodville where he established himself at chb against men.
he made his senior debut rnd 5 2004. and stayed for the remainder of the yr.
his 05 season was outstanding holding down chb and played a big role in their rise to finals. all this in just his 3rd yr on the list proper starting the season with just 18 games to his credit and at age 22.
his 06 was ruined with stress fractures to his lower back he managed just 7 games taking his games tally to 41. but when he came back late in the yr he showed his versatility by kicking goals up forward.
07 he played mainly forward kicking 29 goals had a very consistant yr.
08 outstanding won their b/f and passed the 50 game mark. AA at age 25.
09 sheesh and you say mcguane had a comparable yr now that is laughable. while i will concede mcguane had some good games in the 22 he played the comparison between the two is typical over rating our own stuff.
i believe Bock missed 8 games thru injury or suspension and the two finals. even in missing 8 games bock would have it all over mcguane stats wise. and this holding down a kp.
mcguane is no baby its laughable to lump him in the kid category sheesh he enters his 6th yr after being mostly mediocre in his first 5. his record is ordinary and hes always been a class level below bock.i know which one i would take at any stage of their respective careers.
As I said, he was drafted in 2001, not sure what the fact he was playing U18s for SA has to do with anything
Didn't break into the Crows senior side for 2 years, 2002 & 2003
Got the call up in 2004 as a forward under Gary Ayres and played 10 games for 8 goals until Neil Craig took over and send him into defence
2005 he missed the first 3rd of the season, however his year was solid, however it helps when you have that year's AA full back in Ben Rutten to help you out, something McGuane doesn't have and never has
2006 was pretty much a write off due to injury
So as I said, Rutten didn't have a full and proper break out season until 2007, as a 24 year old. His 2005 was good, however he didn't play the whole year and had a lot of help
McGuane is still only 22 and doesn't have a full back like Ben Rutten to help him out
Which gets me back to the point of comparing a 22 year old who you don't believe is a kpd who has been playing as a kpd with little assistance from team mates and doing a pretty decent job of doing it considering what he has to work with, to a 27 year old from a team who has been playing finals every year since 2005 along side an AA full back, a Brownlow medalist and a future AA back pocket.
Give me a break, your bias is just off the scale on this one
lol and you accuse me of bias like i said why do people have to put the best possible spin on our players and make excuses.
one thing for sure we disagree and one thing for sure i would have taken bock over mcguane at any stage during their respective careers. ive never had any time for poor kicks poor decision makers who are terribly undersized for the role they have to do.
buy the way do you think luke will be AA this yr you obviously rate him better than bock and after all other defenders like bowden managed to make AA in a crap side.
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thats just it though. i dont rate him as either kp or running defender.
and what development have a good look at him skinny legs narrow hips long torso your right he will never be a rutten or have the tools to genuinly match it with the big boys.
if people think hes an option for a running defender well i will give up. what attributes does one need to play this role and how many does mcguane have and do well. its mindboggling that people keep rating this scmuck.
as far as your pics go in 07 he officially weighed 86kg. in 09 he weighed you guessed it 86kg ive hardly seen any improvement in this area outside of his first season and the weights given for each yr back this up.
You should know by now list measurements are quite often a couple of years old. You keep ignoring the fact Mcguane very rarely has had more than 3 goals kicks on him in the last 2 years. That's the evidence which proves Mcguane is a very capable young defender with improvement to come 8)
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Well I have a lot of time for McGuane, he has proven himself with us and we missed him like hell last weekend against the Hawks.
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Claw, to answer your question on Luke's abilities as a running defender, he has good leg speed, aggression, determination, backs himself, excellent vertical leap, extremely fit with good stamina and spoils well. He does have one drawback and that is his disposal by foot which is not the greatest due to an awkward kicking technique. At this stage, I won't go as far as saying he will be AA but he will continue to improve and will be a valuable defender for the club in the years to come.
Re his weight, I'm pretty sure that he has put on more than 10kg since being recruited in 2004 where he weighed 76kg.
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Against his Richmond peers right now he's our best.
Against the league's best, not so good.
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Nathan Bock will be 27 at the start of this season after being drafted in 2001 and didn't have a proper break out year and full season until he was 24 years old in his 7th year (and he bashes his girlfriend)
Luke McGuane had a comparable season to Bock's 7th year in 2009, he had his first year of 22 games, got just as much of the ball and he was only in his 5th year as a 22 years old.
He was also in a far weaker team with far less help down back from team mates, yet was 2 years younger and had less years in the system.
I understand Bock has had some injury, yet McGuane's first year was pretty much a write off after breaking his upper arm in a match which finished his season.
Stop comparing our kids to mature players from top sides when they are still kids. You do this consistently. I understand that this is the level we want them to get to, however we can't expect them to be there instantly, it doesn't work that way.
hmm interesting take. why do we always have to gloss over things in favour of our players.
in 2001 he was busy representing sa at the u18 champs. bock was promoted from the rookie list to the list proper for 2003 at age 20.
he spent the 03 season at woodville where he established himself at chb against men.
he made his senior debut rnd 5 2004. and stayed for the remainder of the yr.
his 05 season was outstanding holding down chb and played a big role in their rise to finals. all this in just his 3rd yr on the list proper starting the season with just 18 games to his credit and at age 22.
his 06 was ruined with stress fractures to his lower back he managed just 7 games taking his games tally to 41. but when he came back late in the yr he showed his versatility by kicking goals up forward.
07 he played mainly forward kicking 29 goals had a very consistant yr.
08 outstanding won their b/f and passed the 50 game mark. AA at age 25.
09 sheesh and you say mcguane had a comparable yr now that is laughable. while i will concede mcguane had some good games in the 22 he played the comparison between the two is typical over rating our own stuff.
i believe Bock missed 8 games thru injury or suspension and the two finals. even in missing 8 games bock would have it all over mcguane stats wise. and this holding down a kp.
mcguane is no baby its laughable to lump him in the kid category sheesh he enters his 6th yr after being mostly mediocre in his first 5. his record is ordinary and hes always been a class level below bock.i know which one i would take at any stage of their respective careers.
As I said, he was drafted in 2001, not sure what the fact he was playing U18s for SA has to do with anything
Didn't break into the Crows senior side for 2 years, 2002 & 2003
Got the call up in 2004 as a forward under Gary Ayres and played 10 games for 8 goals until Neil Craig took over and send him into defence
2005 he missed the first 3rd of the season, however his year was solid, however it helps when you have that year's AA full back in Ben Rutten to help you out, something McGuane doesn't have and never has
2006 was pretty much a write off due to injury
So as I said, Rutten didn't have a full and proper break out season until 2007, as a 24 year old. His 2005 was good, however he didn't play the whole year and had a lot of help
McGuane is still only 22 and doesn't have a full back like Ben Rutten to help him out
Which gets me back to the point of comparing a 22 year old who you don't believe is a kpd who has been playing as a kpd with little assistance from team mates and doing a pretty decent job of doing it considering what he has to work with, to a 27 year old from a team who has been playing finals every year since 2005 along side an AA full back, a Brownlow medalist and a future AA back pocket.
Give me a break, your bias is just off the scale on this one
lol and you accuse me of bias like i said why do people have to put the best possible spin on our players and make excuses.
one thing for sure we disagree and one thing for sure i would have taken bock over mcguane at any stage during their respective careers. ive never had any time for poor kicks poor decision makers who are terribly undersized for the role they have to do.
buy the way do you think luke will be AA this yr you obviously rate him better than bock and after all other defenders like bowden managed to make AA in a crap side.
Bock didn't make AA until 2008 in his 7th year in the system. He was also playing for a side that finished 5th at the end of the year. Given McGuane is about to play his 6th season and doesn't play for a side thats going to come 5th in the next 2 years then it may be tough, but at least give the bloke a chance.
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lol again. granted he was rookie listed and thus was in the system. yep rookie listed in 01. so his first season 02 was spent at his sanfl club where he had a real solid season. again he missed games thru injury broken thumb.
his 03 for a skinny kpp was outstanding after being thrown around in different positions he ended up in the second half of the yr holding down chb and and becoming a key component to woodville.
04 he forced his way into the crows backline which consisted of bassett, hart, smart, mcgregor, the newly got 22 yr old stevens, and a young ben rutten who i believe was drafted as a forward.. he played 18 games pretty much a full season if playing 22 games qualifies as a full season i would suggest not a lot of players each yr play full seasons.
the simple fact is since rnd 5 04 whenever bock has been fit and available he has been pretty much played. nice spin anyway.
05 he played 16 games again to me basically a full season. he missed a few early with injury and being made to work his way back in. one could argue i suppose he spent the first half of the season reestablishing himself. also his second afl season, yep second as many do take it from the time they debut. now thats a bit of spin.
but i suppose coming of a rookie list counts for nothing.
he held down chb and the plaudits coming out of the crows camp and footy comentators alike was things like outstanding yr.
here was a bloke who came thru the rookie system had to outplay established finals footballers to get a game he not only did this but shone in his 4th yr not his 7th as you would have it.
there has never been queries about his talent or his skills or his ability to perform the roles hes given never.
unlike the mediocre comparison you put up and make excuses for.
i wont go on we all know 06 was destroyed thru injury.
07 he was asked to play forward which he did well playing 22 games and then back to his chb position in 08 where he made AA,
as for age comparisons and what each had done i think it pretty pertinant that games be taken into account as well. after 5 seasons 02 - 06 bock played 41 games. mcguane 05 - 09 54 games.
the main factor i use for rating our players is strengths and weakness mcguane is not a whipping boy or the lone ranger to me he just does not measure up.
Against his Richmond peers right now he's our best.
Against the league's best, not so good.
and this is testament to the quality of tall defenders we have rather than ability. do we persevere with someone who does not stack up against the rest and is not likely to in the future, or do we do what has to be done and try to find a young player that will.
again i will say in moving forward mcguane is not the answer. he may well be one of the better defenders we have, no arguments there but i dont see him as part of the future if we are to become a power. we are bottoming out and in rebuild now is the time to play the kids and try to find the better option that is needed.
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The trouble with using Bock as a measuring stick is that most sides will come up short - most sides don't have AA tall running defenders. We should always try and upgrade on every player in every position and in that regard McGuane is no different however in the scheme of things he is far from our worst player or weakest link in the 22, and if he becomes that then we will be in a much stronger position than we currently are.
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I just think it's a little weird that claw doesn't think Luke should be played as a key position defender, but then compares him to an older All Australian centre half back.
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I just think it's a little weird that claw doesn't think Luke should be played as a key position defender, but then compares him to an older All Australian centre half back.
lol i think you should ask smokie the bandit to answer that one.
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Well you're the one who thought it needed its own thread
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Have we seen the best of Luke? As he has only just turned 23, you couldn't say definitively that we have.
So I do think that comparing him with the older CHB's in the comp is a touch unfair. Not entirely unfair but certainly not a level playing field.
Fairer to compare him against the peers.
The way I see it is Luke is really up against Moore and Thursfield for that third tall role and personally think he is in front of the other two.
One thing that I really think Luke has over Thursty as a third tall is his ability to break the lines.
Whilst at times Wil may be considered a safer option, I have never seen Thursfield take on opposition forward lines in the way Luke does. He is a stopper only and that limits his effectiveness in the modern game.
Moore has regressed & he is not in my best 22 right now despite solid skills. 2008 form is looking like a blip right now.
Whilst awkward looking, McGuane is an effective defender who can play on talls/smalls and who has offensive abilities also.
Little wonder he played every game for us last year. He is currently one of our most valuable players.
Whichever role McGuane ends up playing over the long term will certainly be made easier as the midfield becomes more dominant.
He's already achieved far more than his early detractors thought him capable of and may still be on the up.
If we unearth a better option great but I like him despite his questionable disposal and hope he has a great year in 2010.
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Regarding Thurfield, has he been playing that role because thats just the type of player he is, or because he was being instructed to play that way? More often than not he would find himself on a key forward, meaning if he left his man and there was a turnover down the field he risked his opponent getting an easy possession and goal, thus feeling the wrath of the feral hordes.
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Well you're the one who thought it needed its own thread
but im not the one who insisted mcguane be treated the same as moore because of similar height and size comparisons. i was told if i rate moore a running back and not a kp i had to do it with mcguane. so ive gone along with it.
part of the reason for this thread was to find out who and how many thought him a genuine kpp so i could then move onto comparing him with running backs if most didnt think him a kpp.
even though i think mcguane performs the kp role better than he does or would as a running defender. i am looking for much better than what he gives at both. he is truly a glass half full.
to me he has been basically our chb but with jayden post now earmarked for this role i ask what is his role in the team.
some are saying running defender and im saying what a joke only the truly paraochial would even contemplate it.
to me hes in competition with thusfield for fb but i have no doubt that thursfield is the better deep defensive back.
so we come back to the running role. well his skills say he should never ever be asked to perform this role.
look i havent called him a dud or said hes hopeless hes servicable doing certain jobs but im adamant we should be aiming for better more rounded players than luke mcguane and many like him.
i will lay of him for now we will see where hes at at the end of his 6th yr.
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hes servicable doing certain jobs but im adamant we should be aiming for better more rounded players than luke mcguane and many like him.
That sums it nicely claw. He is servicable in certain roles and as such has a place in the starting 22, in the short term. Hopefully he can become more than servicable in the longer term but if someone else can take his place as an upgrade, well and good.
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hes servicable doing certain jobs but im adamant we should be aiming for better more rounded players than luke mcguane and many like him.
That sums it nicely claw. He is servicable in certain roles and as such has a place in the starting 22, in the short term. Hopefully he can become more than servicable in the longer term but if someone else can take his place as an upgrade, well and good.
the only trouble with HOPING he can become more servicable is you arent playing someone who may be better.
jeezuzuuuss many dont even want to see post play back.
its simple assess him and make the judgement on his 5 yrs to date weather hes a part of the future or can significantly improve. he will be a typical rfc player 7 or 9 yrs of hoping and then delist.
i could understand keeping him if we were finals bound and he could perform the odd service but we arent and we desperately need to find good solid well rounded talls. enough of the glass half fulls already they have killed us as a club for long enough.
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You said yourself he is servicable doing certain jobs. Geez you cant even agree with you without getting an argument in return.
If you load up the side with kids as you want and try to play the game that Hardwick wants , half way through the season you will see them run out of steam and cop some real smashings, loose confidence in themselves and perhaps even the coach, as well as start to run the risk of excessive soft tissue injuries. You need mature match hardened bodies in the side that can carry the bulk of the load until these kids bodies mature to the point they can take over, if they are good enough.
the only trouble with HOPING he can become more servicable is you arent playing someone who may be better.
Both scenarios are based on hope.
If you want to match everyone in the side up against their best counterparts in the league you will struggle to fund any players that will hold their place.
Barring the very best sides, that come along rarely, all top sides will have average honest foot solders. Mcguane fits this catagory. He may not set the world on fire, but he rarely gets smashed by his opponent, so he can be part of a solid defensive foundation. He works hard and seems to play to instructions. Although not a man mountain his body can cope with rigours of AFL football.
Given we need to establish a solid defensive game, to offload him now just in the HOPE that who you replace him with might be a champ is like quitting your job and buying a tatslotto ticket.
Play the players now who best can carry out the coaches instructions. Get the game plan in place and working is number 1 priority. Then in a year, or two or whenever, if the kids coming through are good enough they can replace the mcguanes of the world and take the club to the next level.
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You said yourself he is servicable doing certain jobs. Geez you cant even agree with you without getting an argument in return.
If you load up the side with kids as you want and try to play the game that Hardwick wants , half way through the season you will see them run out of steam and cop some real smashings, loose confidence in themselves and perhaps even the coach, as well as start to run the risk of excessive soft tissue injuries. You need mature match hardened bodies in the side that can carry the bulk of the load until these kids bodies mature to the point they can take over, if they are good enough.
the only trouble with HOPING he can become more servicable is you arent playing someone who may be better.
Both scenarios are based on hope.
If you want to match everyone in the side up against their best counterparts in the league you will struggle to fund any players that will hold their place.
Barring the very best sides, that come along rarely, all top sides will have average honest foot solders. Mcguane fits this catagory. He may not set the world on fire, but he rarely gets smashed by his opponent, so he can be part of a solid defensive foundation. He works hard and seems to play to instructions. Although not a man mountain his body can cope with rigours of AFL football.
Given we need to establish a solid defensive game, to offload him now just in the HOPE that who you replace him with might be a champ is like quitting your job and buying a tatslotto ticket.
Play the players now who best can carry out the coaches instructions. Get the game plan in place and working is number 1 priority. Then in a year, or two or whenever, if the kids coming through are good enough they can replace the mcguanes of the world and take the club to the next level.
Exactly. Good post Al. :thumbsup
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We are in a position where we have 4 players ( Moore Rance Mcgunae and Thursty ) who are more suited to a third KP defenders role. Only 2 can play in the senior team. Gourdis and Post have the increased size and muscle mass to be potential genuine KP defenders, the question remains, are they good enough? Mcguane is dour defender not unlike Paul Bulluss, he needs to improve 10% and he will be a bona fide AFL player, not there yet but he is improving.
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Sounds as if Muscles did well on Ottens yesterday.
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He was drafted as a 17 yoa in 2004.
He is only 23 now.
has 50 games under his belt.
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Said it before and I will say it again, got a lot of time for this guy, he showed yesterday why he is important in our back line, end of story. Actually this happens all the time, so many posters on this forum bag players like McGuane, Riewoltd, Edwards (me in particular) etc..... then they front up and prove the knockers completely wrong, McGuane has done it again.
FFS I wish we would just embrace these players for a change!!!
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Said it before and I will say it again, got a lot of time for this guy, he showed yesterday why he is important in our back line, end of story. Actually this happens all the time, so many posters on this forum bag players like McGuane, Riewoltd, Edwards (me in particular) etc..... then they front up and prove the knockers completely wrong, McGuane has done it again.
FFS I wish we would just embrace these players for a change!!!
Mcguane was great yesterday. He looks a touch bigger. Thursty is starting to look solid now too
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Said it before and I will say it again, got a lot of time for this guy, he showed yesterday why he is important in our back line, end of story. Actually this happens all the time, so many posters on this forum bag players like McGuane, Riewoltd, Edwards (me in particular) etc..... then they front up and prove the knockers completely wrong, McGuane has done it again.
FFS I wish we would just embrace these players for a change!!!
Mcguane was great yesterday. He looks a touch bigger. Thursty is starting to look solid now too
Dead set difference with them two back there IMO, sounded like our rebound game was really on.
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You said yourself he is servicable doing certain jobs. Geez you cant even agree with you without getting an argument in return.
If you load up the side with kids as you want and try to play the game that Hardwick wants , half way through the season you will see them run out of steam and cop some real smashings, loose confidence in themselves and perhaps even the coach, as well as start to run the risk of excessive soft tissue injuries.
the only trouble with HOPING he can become more servicable is you arent playing someone who may be better.
Both scenarios are based on hope.
If you want to match everyone in the side up against their best counterparts in the league you will struggle to fund any players that will hold their place.
Barring the very best sides, that come along rarely, all top sides will have average honest foot solders. Mcguane fits this catagory. He may not set the world on fire, but he rarely gets smashed by his opponent, so he can be part of a solid defensive foundation. He works hard and seems to play to instructions. Although not a man mountain his body can cope with rigours of AFL football.
Given we need to establish a solid defensive game, to offload him now just in the HOPE that who you replace him with might be a champ is like quitting your job and buying a tatslotto ticket.
Play the players now who best can carry out the coaches instructions. Get the game plan in place and working is number 1 priority. Then in a year, or two or whenever, if the kids coming through are good enough they can replace the mcguanes of the world and take the club to the next level.
yep he does certain things well and certain roles but hes incomplete hes not rounded enough surely its better to aim for a better more rounded player.
hands up who saw tivendale play some real good games but he was a glass half full and we needed to do better he lasted 9yrs when he should have lasted no more than 4. pettifer kraskouer the same thing inordinate amounts of time in our system some good attributes not not enough to overcome the weaknesses.
and mcguane is in the same boat.
and whos loading up with kids ive only ever wanted well structured best kicking quick smart sides with a decent sprinkling of experience.
sheesh whos the one whos argued for a mature ruckman to be taken or who wanted bradshaw. whos been saying polak will play because of experience even though i cant stand him as a player.
sheesh down back we at least have 26yr old moore, 27yr old newman, 24 yr old thursfield, 23 yr old tambling and that without mcguane. its the most experienced part of the ground for us.
and what hardwick wants for his game plan is very good kicks mcguane hardly fits that bill now does he. oh thats right the defenders of mediocrity cant see the poor skills they keep kidding themselves.
and yep both scenarios is based on hope ones a known quantity that imo is not good enough the other is one that may be what we need. i know lets not play martin because we are relying on hope never mid that he has the attributes to succeed. for me post or mcguane id take post everyday.
and who wants to match him up against the best ive asked people to match him up against all others. sheesh pears hooker hurley are miles in front of him all young and all from the one side. do the exercise. sheesh schoenmakers who played in the nab cup is how old hes a more rounded player than mcguane already. on it goes.
anyway as i have repeatedly said most are going to disagree with me im happy to just agree to disagree.
just have to finish on this though.this is basically the team ive advocted right thru with the odd variation ie thomson or edwards every team ive picked has not had mcguane. what experience am i ignoring tuck mcguane sheesh we are in rebuild its a transition from old to new what do you want the exact same players who took us to a spoon sheesh.
ive picked sides regularly who have height, size, most importantly SKILLS. AS FEW POOR KICKS AS POSSIBLE. pace, smarts. good structure, a sprinkling of experience, and catered to development along the way.
b/ Farmer - Thursfield - Moore.
hb/ Newman - Post - Tambling
C/ Collins - Cousins - Martin
hf/ Cotchin - Riewoldt - Astbury
f/ Morton - Polak - Nahas
r/ Simmonds - Deledio - Foley
int/ Ruckman - Taylor - Roberts - jackson.
Atm i could possibly live with mcguane in for moore as a tall primary defender. i believe moore has better skills is quicker and provides better run. this yr will determine moores fate. for me mcguane has already been earmarked for gc17.
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for some of us its been a little more than the middle of last yr. ive been calling for a full on youth policy since 02.
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b/ Farmer - Thursfield - Moore.
hb/ Newman - Post - Tambling
C/ Collins - Cousins - Martin
hf/ Cotchin - Riewoldt - Astbury
f/ Morton - Polak - Nahas
r/ Simmonds - Deledio - Foley
int/ Ruckman - Taylor - Roberts - jackson.
You are comparing Mcguane to players who didn't chase enough, work enough or go in hard hard. He's not in that category and he's our most important defender. Sign him up now. Mcguane is a very nice kick of the ball btw. Mcguane would surely get a game ahead of Moore. You don't even have Edwards in the team either. Edwards and Mcguane are definates in our 22
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for some of us its been a little more than the middle of last yr. ive been calling for a full on youth policy since 02.
so what does that have to do with intriducing youth into the senior team in a structured way. yea we needed a full on youth policy in 02 just like we do right now. but one statement does not mean we ave to throw em all into the team at once.
i know i will just go thru your posts and and pluck out sentences willy willy and take en out of context. sheesh some are pathetic.
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Obviously we have different interpretations of "Full On". Sorry
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Obviously we have different interpretations of "Full On". Sorry
the end of 09 was a full on youth policy its about getting lots of youth into your system and turning over as many players as possible especially those who have had adequare time to produce.
when you are trading away top picks on retreads and useing limited nd picks each yr one tends to harp on about full on youth policy not hedging our bets like we have in the frawley wallace yrs.
its logical you first have to get the kids in adequate numbers into your systems you then play them when possible or at every opportunity .
this yr i want to see nason get a game webberley taylor dea astbury roberts griffiths martin but only a few will get significant games they still need to play with experience around them good structure and when they tire they need to be replaced. jayden post has shown he is ready t play so has astbury in fact both these boys are good for structure but if they struggle or lose form send em back to coburg for a little bit to recharge. but the priority must be these kids not blokes who have had their day in the sun and failed.
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Said it before and I will say it again, got a lot of time for this guy, he showed yesterday why he is important in our back line, end of story. Actually this happens all the time, so many posters on this forum bag players like McGuane, Riewoltd, Edwards (me in particular) etc..... then they front up and prove the knockers completely wrong, McGuane has done it again.
FFS I wish we would just embrace these players for a change!!!
Mcguane was great yesterday. He looks a touch bigger. Thursty is starting to look solid now too
was you at yea then. and just where do you think edwards will play he wont play in front of newman, tambling or farmer down back. and i would easily take collins cousins and martin thru the middle. morton nahas and roberts possibly cotchin are all better small forward options.
and on the bench we will play a second ruckman jackson will play as a run with player in front of him taylor or collins teah well he may sneak onto the bench its possible though the will go with another big body like dea or thomson or even tuck hes no walk up start or top 22 but hes in the mix.
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Said it before and I will say it again, got a lot of time for this guy, he showed yesterday why he is important in our back line, end of story. Actually this happens all the time, so many posters on this forum bag players like McGuane, Riewoltd, Edwards (me in particular) etc..... then they front up and prove the knockers completely wrong, McGuane has done it again.
FFS I wish we would just embrace these players for a change!!!
Mcguane was great yesterday. He looks a touch bigger. Thursty is starting to look solid now too
was you at yea then. and just where do you think edwards will play he wont play in front of newman, tambling or farmer down back. and i would easily take collins cousins and martin thru the middle. morton nahas and roberts possibly cotchin are all better small forward options.
and on the bench we will play a second ruckman jackson will play as a run with player in front of him taylor or collins teah well he may sneak onto the bench its possible though the will go with another big body like dea or thomson or even tuck hes no walk up start or top 22 but hes in the mix.
Edwards has been our most improved player since mid last year. He'd be one of the first players picked in defence or a wing. He'll definately get a game ahead of farmer and collins, but I'd have all 3 in the team. I can't see Dea, Taylor or Roberts playing round 1. They aren't ready. I was there yesterday and expect Post, Astbury, Graham to come back in
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Said it before and I will say it again, got a lot of time for this guy, he showed yesterday why he is important in our back line, end of story. Actually this happens all the time, so many posters on this forum bag players like McGuane, Riewoltd, Edwards (me in particular) etc..... then they front up and prove the knockers completely wrong, McGuane has done it again.
FFS I wish we would just embrace these players for a change!!!
Mcguane was great yesterday. He looks a touch bigger. Thursty is starting to look solid now too
was you at yea then. and just where do you think edwards will play he wont play in front of newman, tambling or farmer down back. and i would easily take collins cousins and martin thru the middle. morton nahas and roberts possibly cotchin are all better small forward options.
and on the bench we will play a second ruckman jackson will play as a run with player in front of him taylor or collins teah well he may sneak onto the bench its possible though the will go with another big body like dea or thomson or even tuck hes no walk up start or top 22 but hes in the mix.
Edwards has been our most improved player since mid last year. He'd be one of the first players picked in defence or a wing. He'll definately get a game ahead of farmer and collins, but I'd have all 3 in the team. I can't see Dea, Taylor or Roberts playing round 1. They aren't ready. I was there yesterday and expect Post, Astbury, Graham to come back in
from what i can gather both roberts and dea will push for a spot rnd 1. only a glorified praccie game but both these boys have had some pretty glowing reports on most forums ive gone to.
sorry madone but edwards cannot play in defence i agree he could stake a spot on the wing. unlike you if it came down to a choice between him and collins id take collins.
and for once i agree with you. edwards did improve in the second half of last yr. he was so poor before that in particular his kicking i had written him of. i dont know if half a season gives him automatic selection into the first 22 and i am not conviced with his footskills. leopards do not change their spots.
his size while marginally improved is still not good enough but he did enough in the second half of the season to suggest we should persevere he did enough to be considered if not in the top 22 in the top 25 30 or so and in the mix.
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Mcguane was great yesterday. He looks a touch bigger. Thursty is starting to look solid now too
Luke continues to stick it up his doubters.
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and for once i agree with you. edwards did improve in the second half of last yr. he was so poor before that in particular his kicking i had written him of. i dont know if half a season gives him automatic selection into the first 22 and i am not conviced with his footskills. leopards do not change their spots.
his size while marginally improved is still not good enough but he did enough in the second half of the season to suggest we should persevere he did enough to be considered if not in the top 22 in the top 25 30 or so and in the mix.
And yet you give McGuane no quarter. It's almost like you have something against him personally.
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Mcguane was great yesterday. He looks a touch bigger. Thursty is starting to look solid now too
Luke continues to stick it up his doubters.
did he magic i suppose you also saw him in a glorified practice match.
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did he magic i suppose you also saw him in a glorified practice match.
No I didn't see him. Just basing my opinions on what others have said here and what I have seen previously.
Luke's come a long way from his beginnings where some were so quick to write him off and not sure the journey is over yet.
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yep hes come a long way bout as far hes gunna go and the journey has at least this season to go.in fact if the rfc run true to form he will last another 2 or 3 yrs.
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yep hes come a long way bout as far hes gunna go and the journey has at least this season to go.in fact if the rfc run true to form he will last another 2 or 3 yrs.
What, you're a psychic now? ::)
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Mcguane was great yesterday. He looks a touch bigger. Thursty is starting to look solid now too
Luke continues to stick it up his doubters.
:clapping :clapping