One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Stripes on October 29, 2010, 02:49:26 PM
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With Cotchin, Martin, Foley, Jackson, 'Polec', Grigg, Houli, Tuck and even Deledio in the middle next year I'm feeling pretty buoyant about our midfield stocks and how they will potentially match up on the so called better midfields of the competition.
So who do you think is better and why?
Stripes
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Here’s a list of what each team put on the field in game one last season. (Please excuse me if I have thrown in the odd ruckman – I was hurrying ☹ ) Now these list would obviously change after a full year especially ours :o
RICHMOND
Martin Deledio Nason Jackson Cotchin Cousins Connors Thomson
CARLTON
Houlihan Murphy Scotland Gibbs McLean Robinson Walker Yarran
GEELONG
Kelly, Bartel, Corey Ling, Selwood Duncan, Milburn, Wojcinski
ESSENDON
Dyson, Winderlich, Stanton Watson, Welsh Riemers, Zaharakis Howlett
MELBOURNE
Davey, Bruce, Jones Trengrove Dunn, Moloney Spencer, McKenzie, Scully
HAWTHORN
Lewis, Mitchell, Ellis Hodge, Moss Peterson, Shiels,
SYDNEY SWANS
McVeigh, Kirk, Jetta Kennedy, Bolton Jack, Mattner, Richards
ST KILDA
Montagna, Jones, Dal Santo Armitage, Ray Peake, Hayes, Geary
BRISBANE LIONS
Sherman, Rich, Rischitelli Brennan, Black Johnstone, Raines, Staker
WEST COAST
Embley, Priddis, A.Selwood Kerr, Masten Butler, Ebert, McGinnity, Swift
PORT ADELAIDE
Pearce, Cassisi, Davenport Boak, Cornes Trengove, Banner, Stewart
NORTH MELBOURNE
Bastinac, Ziebell, Wright Wells, Harvey Anthony, Swallow
WESTERN BULLDOGS
Cross, Boyd, Hill Cooney, Griffen Johnson, Minson, Picken
Collingwood
Luke Ball, Dane Swan, Ben Johnson Scott Pendlebury, Dale Thomas Shane O'Bree, Sharrod Wellingham, Steele Sidebottom,
FREMANTLE
Morabito, Mundy, McPhee Barlow, Duffield Suban, Hasleby, Crowley
ADELAIDE
Cook, Goodwin, Mackay Griffin, Van Berlo, Thompson Armstrong, Dangerfield, Petrenko, Sloane
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With Cotchin, Martin, Foley, Jackson, 'Polec', Grigg, Houli, Tuck and even Deledio in the middle next year I'm feeling pretty buoyant about our midfield stocks and how they will potentially match up on the so called better midfields of the competition.
So who do you think is better and why?
Stripes
Replace Polec with Gaff and you might be a bit closer Stripes. ;)
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Cotchin and Martin look guns, but are still kids.
Foley is still a big question mark, if he makes it back fully fit, it's a bonus.
Tuck and Jackson are turnover merchants.
Grigg, Houli and ND#6 unknowns.
Deledio does his best work off half back.
Throw Morton in the mix too, if he can get it 25-30 times a game, he's a good user of the ball.
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With Cotchin, Martin, Foley, Jackson, 'Polec', Grigg, Houli, Tuck and even Deledio in the middle next year I'm feeling pretty buoyant about our midfield stocks and how they will potentially match up on the so called better midfields of the competition.
So who do you think is better and why?
Stripes
Replace Polec with Gaff and you might be a bit closer Stripes. ;)
I'll change it too 'quick, left-footer with a raking kick' - covers half the early midfield choices doesn't it? ;D
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You are in a rush Stripes.....no Judd in the Carlton midfield.
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we need more depth, 4 players dont make the midfield. Morton, edwards, grigg, houli and pick 6 (if a midfielder) will all need to become regulars and half decent ones at that, for our midfiel to take the next step. depth of runners will win out over 4 or 5 gun mids, look at th pies, cats they go 12 deep week in week out in terms of rotating runners through the guts
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Cotchin and Martin look guns, but are still kids.
Foley is still a big question mark, if he makes it back fully fit, it's a bonus.
Tuck and Jackson are turnover merchants.
Grigg, Houli and ND#6 unknowns.
Deledio does his best work off half back.
Throw Morton in the mix too, if he can get it 25-30 times a game, he's a good user of the ball.
For arguments sake well agree that Tuck was a turnover merchant. You'd have to agree that for most of this year he was pretty good?
It was only near the end he slipped into some of his old ways, which as it turns out was about when his brother went off the rails.
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I'm a big tucki fan.
As prob our most senior player,at least in years served at the club,his on field leadership has to rise.
A more disciplined playing style seems to have been implemented and if he continues to adhere to it,he could be,to some,a surprise packet.
Hw old?
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Tucky will be 29 next season. I don't know about his ability to adhere to a more complicated gameplan. He's a bit... simple.
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For arguments sake well agree that Tuck was a turnover merchant. You'd have to agree that for most of this year he was pretty good?
It was only near the end he slipped into some of his old ways, which as it turns out was about when his brother went off the rails.
Have to say the improvement in Tuckys ball use was amazing this year. At times you could see he wanted to bomb long but he restrained himself and spotted up a short target. Tucky and Gus were the two surprise packets for me this year just past who both played far above what I thought they were capable of, however still think Gus has to lift again.
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unless Tuck is some sort of simpleton that struggles with simple day to day tasks, there is absolutely no argument that he would be unable to adhere to a plan. I am talking acquired brain injury simple or toddler simple. He played great this year, dishing this crap up on him all the time is just feeding the rubbish that he cant play and that's crap.
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Cotchin, Martin, Deledio, Foley, Caddy 8)
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Pick 6, martin, cotchin, deledio, foley, morton, Edwards, Connors,
grigg, houli, tuck, Jackson, Etc.
The middle is better than it was 6 or 7 years ago. An has potential to be very strong
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You are in a rush Stripes.....no Judd in the Carlton midfield.
No issue there mat073. Judd is just a teachers pet. :lol :rollin :lol
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On paper we look great, experience wise we are still a long way behind :( there are plenty of teams way ahead of us in that department.......
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You are in a rush Stripes.....no Judd in the Carlton midfield.
These midfields were from the first game last year when Judd was suspended. We still got our behinds handed to us but with Thompson, underdone Cotchin and an extremely raw Nason and Martin we were bound to get smashed.
Experience wise we are still a ways off but in terms of quality I'm starting to get a little warm and fuzzy when I look at our midfield stocks. Foley would be a huge bonus for us this year.
We played both Deledio and Connors in the middle in the first game but they seem to have settled in the HB line now. While the half back and half forward players often push up into the middle, this does take away a little from the rotations.
If you have to pick 12 players to rotate through the middle in a game who would you put and in what order of importance?
Mine would be -
1. Cotchin (leader, quality, in and out)
2. Jackson (crucial to structures/blocks/tags)
3. Martin (quality/in & out)
4. Foley (quality/in and out)
5.Tuck (size/inside)
6. Edwards (pace/outside)
7. Morton (desposal/outside)
8. Grigg (inside & outside/ may lift up rankings but untried at present)
9. Houli (outside/ goalkicker/ may lift up rankings but untried at present)
10. Deledio (quality ball user/little time in middle reason for low ranking)
11. Connors (quality ball user/little time in middle reason for low ranking)
12. King (additional tagger/goal sneak)
Just my take
Stripes
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Cotchin, Martin, Deledio, Foley, Caddy 8)
That is what I am hoping for- another tough inside midfielder. Geez our midfield will be good in a few years time
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Cotchin, Martin, Deledio, Foley, Caddy 8)
That is what I am hoping for- another tough inside midfielder. Geez our midfield will be good in a few years time
I don't think you would want too many of the same type of player in the team. I think we traded for Grigg to be that extra inside midfielder so we don't necessarily need another inside midfielder in this draft.
I'll have to look up Caddy to see who you are talking about though and I agree with you - our midfield is starting to shape up nicely :thumbsup
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in my humble view I think that most other team's midfields are better than ours - at least all the teams that played in the finals and possibly a few more such as the kangaroos and melbourne
they generally have more depth and have matchwinners in the midfield - IMHO we dont have any pure A grade elite midfielders at the moment
hence why none of our mids get into a Sheahan top 50 for example
cotchin (fingers crossed) with a proper preseason and only slightly modified program has the talent to turn into a pure A grade elite midfielder , but he is not there yet. foley was one and it remains to be seen what he comes back from the injury like, martin is only in his second year and would probably need at least another year to become that A grader,
edwards (break out season) tuck jackson kingy morton etc are all solid foot soldiers but not elite...morton might turn himself into an elite but has only really played a handful of games in the centre after moving away from the fwd line...
note that I dont view lids as a mid - hbf.
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in my humble view I think that most other team's midfields are better than ours - at least all the teams that played in the finals and possibly a few more such as the kangaroos and melbourne
they generally have more depth and have matchwinners in the midfield - IMHO we dont have any pure A grade elite midfielders at the moment
hence why none of our mids get into a Sheahan top 50 for example
cotchin (fingers crossed) with a proper preseason and only slightly modified program has the talent to turn into a pure A grade elite midfielder , but he is not there yet. foley was one and it remains to be seen what he comes back from the injury like, martin is only in his second year and would probably need at least another year to become that A grader,
edwards (break out season) tuck jackson kingy morton etc are all solid foot soldiers but not elite...morton might turn himself into an elite but has only really played a handful of games in the centre after moving away from the fwd line...
note that I dont view lids as a mid - hbf.
You view Connors and Newman in the same manner as Lids as well? What about our new midfielders in Grigg and, probably, Houli?
I think we will surprize many people next year with out midfield talent. We were winning the contested ball and clearances in many games last year but were one of the worst in turnovers. My biggest concern with our midfield is not our depth as I believe that is coming on like a steam train but more our ruckmen who feed the ball out to them. Gus is servicable and Vickery versitile neither are big enough or capable enough at the moment to give us regular first use of the ball. We are continually reliant upon predicting where the opposition ruck will hit it to and winning the ball in congested situations. This is one of our achille's heels.
Lids was being tagged last year for a reason. Teams don't tag anyone if they don't think they need to and Cotch can be extremely damaging to oppositions. Martin was winning a hell of a lot of congested ball for his first year and players like Grigg and Foley (hopefully) will only add to the congested football numbers. Cotchin, Martin and our other better ball users will then be released more to move it forwards. Obtaining Grigg and the return of Foley could make a far greater difference to our midfield and team than many people predict.
The midfield is probably the area we have as our greatest strength and it is through no coincidence that it is also the area we have the greatest competition for spots and greatest depth. Our backline is the next area with the greatest depth so be assured it will become our next most powerful area.
I feel there is alot of upside to our team next year and I can't see many midfields in the competition destroying us through the middle as in previous years. I think at the very worst we will break even and very best embarrass a great deal of teams.
Time will tell of course :santa
Stripes
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Stripes
I do view connors and newman in the same boat as Lids...
I admire your optimism regarding our midfield but I still argue we dont have any genuine A grade elite players there at the moment.
We simply do not have an Ablett (GC), Montagna (Saints), Swan (Pies), Cooney (Doggies), Judd (Blues), Bartel (Cats) at all on our list. I raise these 6 as they are 6 matchwinners at other clubs...and aside from GC who only has Rischitelli and then some great kids - the other teams mentioned have either another A grader or at least some very strong Bplus mids to assist eg hayes is either an A grader or an A minus, Pend is probably an A grader, boyd an A grader, Selwood at the cats is an A grader etc.
Put another way, we do not have ONE midfieder who is a regular matchwinner in his own right, let alone a couple. I dont count Lids a mid and when he played in the middle - he was tagged and found it hard to shake.
As for Grigg I think he will be serviceable without being A grade...he isnt yet but he might surprise and turn out to be a solid B grade mid. Same for Houli, though I think he will be a C to B grader. I think Grigg will be the pick of the 2.
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Stripes
I do view connors and newman in the same boat as Lids...
I admire your optimism regarding our midfield but I still argue we dont have any genuine A grade elite players there at the moment.
We simply do not have an Ablett (GC), Montagna (Saints), Swan (Pies), Cooney (Doggies), Judd (Blues), Bartel (Cats) at all on our list. I raise these 6 as they are 6 matchwinners at other clubs...and aside from GC who only has Rischitelli and then some great kids - the other teams mentioned have either another A grader or at least some very strong Bplus mids to assist eg hayes is either an A grader or an A minus, Pend is probably an A grader, boyd an A grader, Selwood at the cats is an A grader etc.
Put another way, we do not have ONE midfieder who is a regular matchwinner in his own right, let alone a couple. I dont count Lids a mid and when he played in the middle - he was tagged and found it hard to shake.
As for Grigg I think he will be serviceable without being A grade...he isnt yet but he might surprise and turn out to be a solid B grade mid. Same for Houli, though I think he will be a C to B grader. I think Grigg will be the pick of the 2.
But it isn't necessarily about having a few A+ graders, its more about not having any B- and C graders. Champions are nice but not necessary to win flags, an even spread of good to very good players will do. And when you have a list of good to very good players the very good have life a lot easier and can look like superstars.
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Stripes
I do view connors and newman in the same boat as Lids...
I admire your optimism regarding our midfield but I still argue we dont have any genuine A grade elite players there at the moment.
We simply do not have an Ablett (GC), Montagna (Saints), Swan (Pies), Cooney (Doggies), Judd (Blues), Bartel (Cats) at all on our list. I raise these 6 as they are 6 matchwinners at other clubs...and aside from GC who only has Rischitelli and then some great kids - the other teams mentioned have either another A grader or at least some very strong Bplus mids to assist eg hayes is either an A grader or an A minus, Pend is probably an A grader, boyd an A grader, Selwood at the cats is an A grader etc.
Put another way, we do not have ONE midfieder who is a regular matchwinner in his own right, let alone a couple. I dont count Lids a mid and when he played in the middle - he was tagged and found it hard to shake.
As for Grigg I think he will be serviceable without being A grade...he isnt yet but he might surprise and turn out to be a solid B grade mid. Same for Houli, though I think he will be a C to B grader. I think Grigg will be the pick of the 2.
But it isn't necessarily about having a few A+ graders, its more about not having any B- and C graders. Champions are nice but not necessary to win flags, an even spread of good to very good players will do. And when you have a list of good to very good players the very good have life a lot easier and can look like superstars.
yep unfortunately we have neither at thispoint in time....
2011 will tell a tale about both our potential elite and also our perceived growing depth..... but right now we have nothing but hope.
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But it isn't necessarily about having a few A+ graders, its more about not having any B- and C graders. Champions are nice but not necessary to win flags, an even spread of good to very good players will do. And when you have a list of good to very good players the very good have life a lot easier and can look like superstars.
I understand your point about very good players looking like superstars cos of others around them...eg Kerr when he had judd and cuz next to him.
but how many premiership teams of the past 20 years did not have at least a couple of A graders in the midfield?
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But it isn't necessarily about having a few A+ graders, its more about not having any B- and C graders. Champions are nice but not necessary to win flags, an even spread of good to very good players will do. And when you have a list of good to very good players the very good have life a lot easier and can look like superstars.
I understand your point about very good players looking like superstars cos of others around them...eg Kerr when he had judd and cuz next to him.
but how many premiership teams of the past 20 years did not have at least a couple of A graders in the midfield?
Hawthorn 2008-
Mitchell B+ or A-
Crawford B (was an A grader but not in his last year)
Sewell B+
Bateman B+
Ladson C+ or B-
Lewis B+
Young B-
Ellis C+ or B-
Just my opinion, thoughts?
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I don't think we are there yet but the quality of the midfielders developing in this area should give us all great optomism about the future. Next year we could see the emergence of not only one potential A graders but a number. Very few clubs have players as young as we do holding up the centre, not just hovering around the clearances or taking the glory on the wings, but genuine young players winning the clearances and working together to thread through traffic and then deep into the forwardline. This job is usually allocated to older, more experienced campaigners such as the players you ahave already mentioned but we have the likes of Cotchin and Martin doing the bulk of it. With Grigg joining the young brigade next year (22 yr old) this makes for a very inexperienced but potentially elite midfield emergence in the next 2-4 years.
I see in 2011 our midfield holding their own, learning each others game and developing the strategies/structures around the packs to exploit their individual talents for the next decade. Foley and Houli will be the icing on the cake with Tuck and Jackson providing some much needed strength; blocks and shepherds, around the packs in the short term. Throw in a good outside wingman with out first pick and it has me salivating. :burgereater
IMHO next year will reveal the start of a powerful midfield unit that will embarrass many teams in the future. :thumbsup
Stripes
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I don't think we are there yet but the quality of the midfielders developing in this area should give us all great optomism about the future. Next year we could see the emergence of not only one potential A graders but a number. Very few clubs have players as young as we do holding up the centre, not just hovering around the clearances or taking the glory on the wings, but genuine young players winning the clearances and working together to thread through traffic and then deep into the forwardline. This job is usually allocated to older, more experienced campaigners such as the players you ahave already mentioned but we have the likes of Cotchin and Martin doing the bulk of it. With Grigg joining the young brigade next year (22 yr old) this makes for a very inexperienced but potentially elite midfield emergence in the next 2-4 years.
I see in 2011 our midfield holding their own, learning each others game and developing the strategies/structures around the packs to exploit their individual talents for the next decade. Foley and Houli will be the icing on the cake with Tuck and Jackson providing some much needed strength; blocks and shepherds, around the packs in the short term. Throw in a good outside wingman with out first pick and it has me salivating. :burgereater
IMHO next year will reveal the start of a powerful midfield unit that will embarrass many teams in the future. :thumbsup
Stripes
Great post Stripes...I agree our mids are some of the youngest and we have true hope for optimism. I think it will be 2012 and not 2011 unfortuantely.
If it werent for the GC concessions this year we would be getting another elite mid at #2. I hope foley returns to the form he had earlier in his careet and that you are right about Houli...as I said earlier, I think that Grigg will be the pick of the 2.
Most players (bling and post being the exceptions (i dont count mcmahon)) all went forward in their development last year. Another year's development like that and our mids and in fact our whole team will be a competitive unit. somewhere between 9th and 12th on the ladder.
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tier 1
Tuck. Newman. Foley. Martin. Cotchin. Deledio.
2
Morton. Edwards. Connors. Jackson. King.
3
white. Grigg. Houli. Orielly. Webberly. Taylor. Farmer. Contin. Dea. Hicks. Hislop. Nahas. Nason
You are in a rush Stripes.....no Judd in the Carlton midfield.
These midfields were from the first game last year when Judd was suspended. We still got our behinds handed to us but with Thompson, underdone Cotchin and an extremely raw Nason and Martin we were bound to get smashed.
Experience wise we are still a ways off but in terms of quality I'm starting to get a little warm and fuzzy when I look at our midfield stocks. Foley would be a huge bonus for us this year.
We played both Deledio and Connors in the middle in the first game but they seem to have settled in the HB line now. While the half back and half forward players often push up into the middle, this does take away a little from the rotations.
If you have to pick 12 players to rotate through the middle in a game who would you put and in what order of importance?
Mine would be -
1. Cotchin (leader, quality, in and out)
2. Jackson (crucial to structures/blocks/tags)
3. Martin (quality/in & out)
4. Foley (quality/in and out)
5.Tuck (size/inside)
6. Edwards (pace/outside)
7. Morton (desposal/outside)
8. Grigg (inside & outside/ may lift up rankings but untried at present)
9. Houli (outside/ goalkicker/ may lift up rankings but untried at present)
10. Deledio (quality ball user/little time in middle reason for low ranking)
11. Connors (quality ball user/little time in middle reason for low ranking)
12. King (additional tagger/goal sneak)
Just my take
Stripes
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tier 1
Tuck. Newman. Foley. Martin. Cotchin. Deledio.
2
Morton. Edwards. Connors. Jackson. King.
3
white. Grigg. Houli. Orielly. Webberly. Taylor. Farmer. Contin. Dea. Hicks. Hislop. Nahas. Nason
Would you put Newman, Connors and Deledio into the midfield bracket? They played off the half backline all year afterall but I guess in that position they are constantly moving up the ground... :-\ King has played more in the forwardline lately but, like the other three, is frequently moving into the midfield so perhaps your a summary is fairly spot on.
I would suggest that jackson should be int he first tier given his importance to the midfield structure. He does a huge amount of work off the ball which allows the better users of the ball the space and time to use it.
Grigg and Houli could quickly fit into the 2nd or even :pray first tier if things fall our way. Looking at our second and third tier we fall away very quickly. If Morton, Edwards and one of White, Webberly, Contin or Hicks can step up next year it would make all the difference. Our new lot of midfielders may also burst out of the blocks... but there is a lot of 'if's' there isn't there :'(
I guess we just have to hope for more players to lift, develop and strengthen like we have for years. Despite all this I still remain optimistic about this years midfields performance - we will trouble most teams but we can't afford injuries.
Stripes