One-Eyed Richmond Forum

Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on March 18, 2013, 01:22:58 AM

Title: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: one-eyed on March 18, 2013, 01:22:58 AM
Richmond Tigers season preview for 2013

    Sam Edmund
    From: Herald Sun
    March 18, 2013


THE rebuilding is done, the list has depth and the finals beckon.

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

But this might just be the year - Damien Hardwick's fourth as coach - that Richmond finally start to shake the underachiever tag.

It can be difficult to judge a side that last year belted grand finallists Hawthorn and Sydney but still couldn't beat Gold Coast.

It was the off-season, however, that has many Tiger fans buzzing like an old fridge. Punt Road turned into the recycling capital of Australia over summer, plucking the likes of Sam Lonergan, Orren Stephenson and Ricky Petterd from the AFL scrap heap.

Aaron Edwards, Troy Chaplin and Chris Knights were also snapped up, bringing to six the number of experienced new faces joining the club.

While some interpreted the strategy as a sign Richmond thought it was close to a flag, the reality is Hardwick knows he had no one to call on when injuries hit in the second half of last year.

The old heads, it's hoped, can also address the panicky late-game mistakes that cost the Tigers at least three wins in 2012, one of which saw Paul Roos accuse them of ``the worst 47 seconds in footy''.

Close games out, get some luck with injury and the 11-year finals draught could finally be over.

PREDICTED FINISH: 8th-9th



FIVE PLAYERS TO WATCH

TRENT COTCHIN
Seemingly the name on everyone's lips when it comes to Brownlow Medal fancies and a superstar of the competition. But how will the burden of captaincy effect his game? Will need off-field support as he takes on extra responsibility.

DUSTIN MARTIN
Let's just say it hasn't been the quietest of off-seasons for the colourful kid from Castlemaine. Not as dominant last year as he was in 2011 and was suspended by the club for two weeks for missing training. But the rugged onballer can influence games like few his age. The expectations are high _ and for good reason.

TY VICKERY
Those who still doubted his importance to this side probably don't any more. After kicking 36 goals in 2011 he was sorely missed in the second half of the year when he went down with a major shoulder injury. Has had a modified pre-season, but should be there come Round 1.

NICK VLASTUIN
Captained Vic Metro last year and won All-Australian honours. Is also one hard unit. Relishes the physical side of the game and just keeps cracking in, regardless of the score or situation. At 187cm and 86kg, he is ready for senior football.

AARON EDWARDS
At his third AFL home after stints and West Coast and North Melbourne. But Edwards has already shown he can be a solid foil for Jack Riewoldt and Vickery inside the Tigers' forward 50m. Has got through the pre-season unscathed and has no injury problems. Leads well, competes hard and should make a scoreboard contribution most weeks.

SUPERCOACH STARS

BRETT DELEDIO

Has been stripped of the valuable dual position status so a lot will overlook him. Don't be one of them. Yes, he is now midfield only, but he averaged 117 last year. There's not many guys posting those sort of numbers that you can call a "unique pick''.

IVAN MARIC

'The Story' of SuperCoach in 2012. Maric was the most improved player in Champion Data's ranking points system in 2012 and averaged 113 despite being hobbled by groin problems late in the year. Had a slow start to pre-season, but that is more precaution than necessity, with the Tigers desperate to ensure he stays fit.


RICHMOND 2012 INSTANT RECALL

2012 SEASON: 12th
BEST & FAIREST: 1. T. Cotchin 2. B. Deledio 3. 1. Maric
GOALS LEADER: Jack Riewoldt (65)
TOP DISPOSALS: Trent Cotchin (606)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/more-news/melbourne-season-preview-for-2013/story-e6frf9jf-1226597594624
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: one-eyed on March 18, 2013, 01:56:50 AM
How they shape up - RICHMOND

IN Damien Hardwick’s fourth year as coach, can Richmond finally break a 12-year September drought? Last year they belted grand finalists Hawthorn and Sydney and lost to Gold Coast. The off-season saw Richmond turn into the recycling capital of Australia as Sam Lonergan, Orren Stephenson, Ricky Petterd, Aaron Edwards, Troy Chaplin and Chris Knights arrived. The old heads may help address the panicky lategame mistakes that cost the Tigers at least three wins in 2012.

Five to watch: Trent Cotchin, Dustin Martin, Ty Vickery, Nick Vlastuin: Aaron Edwards.

SuperCoach stars Brett Deledio (midfielder, $624,100): Stripped of dual position status so plenty will overlook. Don’t be one of them, he averaged 117 last year. Ivan Maric (ruck, $606,900): The most improved player in Champion Data’s ranking points system in 2012 and averaged 113 despite being hobbled by groin problems.
- Sam Edmund


Herald-Sun's crystal ball:

Mark Robinson       miss finals
Daryl Timms             6th
Scott Gullan             7th
Shane Crawford      8th                    Cotchin to win the Brownlow
Mike Sheahan        miss finals
Paul Roos               miss finals
Jon Anderson         miss finals
Sam Edmund          miss finals           Cotchin to win the Brownlow
Jon Ralph               miss finals
Glenn McFarlane    miss finals
Warwick Green      miss finals
David King                6th                   Cotchin to win the Brownlow
Matt Windley         miss finals
Mark Hayes              6th
Michael Warner        8th                   Cotchin to win the Brownlow
Bruce Matthews    miss finals
Jay Clark               miss finals
Eliza Sewell          miss finals           MID-SEASON There's every chance I'll be regretting leaving Richmond out of the eight.
Gerard Whateley     8th                  Cotchin to win the Brownlow


POLL LEADERS

PREMIER
Hawthorn 6
West Coast 6
Collingwood 6
Sydney 1

FINALS
Collingwood   19 (All)
Hawthorn       19 (All)
Sydney           19 (All)
West Coast   19 (All)
Carlton          18
Geelong         16
Fremantle      15
Adelaide        12
Richmond        7
North Melb.     4
Essendon       2
Brisbane         1
St Kilda           1

BROWNLOW
Trent Cotchin 5
Patrick Dangerfield 4
Nathan Fyfe 3
Dane Swan 2
Sam Mitchell 2
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Phil Mrakov on March 18, 2013, 09:49:14 AM
lolllll Robbo
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: tony_montana on March 18, 2013, 10:02:42 AM
lolllll Robbo

Why lol robbo? what did he say?
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Phil Mrakov on March 18, 2013, 10:05:23 AM
lolllll Robbo

Why lol robbo? what did he say?

It's what I don't expect him to say
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Tigeritis™©® on March 18, 2013, 10:20:11 AM
"It was the off-season, however, that has many Tiger fans buzzing like an old fridge" :lol. Like it  :thumbsup

AARON EDWARDS
At his third AFL home after stints and West Coast and North Melbourne. But Edwards has already shown he can be a solid foil for Jack Riewoldt and Vickery inside the Tigers' forward 50m. Has got through the pre-season unscathed and has no injury problems. Leads well, competes hard and should make a scoreboard contribution most weeks.

 :ROTFL :ROTFL :ROTFL
Did this guy watch any preseason games?
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: gerkin greg on March 18, 2013, 11:38:01 AM

Herald-Sun's crystal ball:

Mark Robinson       miss finals
Daryl Timms             6th
Scott Gullan             7th
Shane Crawford      8th                    Cotchin to win the Brownlow
Mike Sheahan        miss finals
Paul Roos               miss finals
Jon Anderson         miss finals
Sam Edmund          miss finals           Cotchin to win the Brownlow
Jon Ralph               miss finals
Glenn McFarlane    miss finals
Warwick Green      miss finals
David King                6th                   Cotchin to win the Brownlow
Matt Windley         miss finals
Mark Hayes              6th
Michael Warner        8th                   Cotchin to win the Brownlow
Bruce Matthews    miss finals
Jay Clark               miss finals
Eliza Sewell          miss finals           MID-SEASON There's every chance I'll be regretting leaving Richmond out of the eight.
Gerard Whateley     8th                  Cotchin to win the Brownlow


FINALS
Collingwood   19 (All)
Hawthorn       19 (All)
Sydney           19 (All)
West Coast   19 (All)
Carlton          18
Geelong         16
Fremantle      15
Adelaide        12
Richmond        7
North Melb.     4
Essendon       2
Brisbane         1
St Kilda           1


So there it is. ZERO expectation from the media. Can hardly turn around now and say we've failed to live up to expectations if we miss the finals can they...  ::)

Also, is Nat Fyfe the most overrated footballer in the comp. sheesh.
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: tony_montana on March 18, 2013, 11:47:43 AM
Agree about nat Fyfe, yeah very good young player but stuff me they talk him up. I cant stand when media have a love in with particular players. They kick it 30 metres and they rave, they kick a goal they rave, theyhandball they rave Didak used to kick one from the boundary and it was OOOHHHHH WOWWEEEEEEEE, hes done it again, nevermind that each week your average joe does the same
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Stripes on March 18, 2013, 01:20:48 PM
Lets hope Dusty regains the head of the class title again this year hey!  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: smasha on March 18, 2013, 02:49:22 PM
Roos Blues supporter as a kid.No wonder he trolls us.
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Eat_em_Alive on March 18, 2013, 06:48:05 PM
Agree about nat Fyfe, yeah very good young player but stuff me they talk him up. I cant stand when media have a love in with particular players. They kick it 30 metres and they rave, they kick a goal they rave, theyhandball they rave Didak used to kick one from the boundary and it was OOOHHHHH WOWWEEEEEEEE, hes done it again, nevermind that each week your average joe does the same

Yep exactly, Luke mcguane has been averaging a couple of goals a game and playing his role. But its not like they dip him in honey and let the lesbians lick him to death now is it?  ::)
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: dwaino on March 18, 2013, 07:30:02 PM
Agree about nat Fyfe, yeah very good young player but stuff me they talk him up. I cant stand when media have a love in with particular players. They kick it 30 metres and they rave, they kick a goal they rave, theyhandball they rave Didak used to kick one from the boundary and it was OOOHHHHH WOWWEEEEEEEE, hes done it again, nevermind that each week your average joe does the same

Yep exactly, Luke mcguane has been averaging a couple of goals a game and playing his role. But its not like they dip him in honey and let the lesbians lick him to death now is it?  ::)

(http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj489/dwwaino/46D20CB7-86A4-445D-950F-E54BE64A649D-13007-000015C63EE7802A_zps07b09471.jpg)
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: tony_montana on March 18, 2013, 09:08:32 PM
Agree about nat Fyfe, yeah very good young player but stuff me they talk him up. I cant stand when media have a love in with particular players. They kick it 30 metres and they rave, they kick a goal they rave, theyhandball they rave Didak used to kick one from the boundary and it was OOOHHHHH WOWWEEEEEEEE, hes done it again, nevermind that each week your average joe does the same

Yep exactly, Luke mcguane has been averaging a couple of goals a game and playing his role. But its not like they dip him in honey and let the lesbians lick him to death now is it?  ::)

 Not sure if you're being a smartarse or not with that post.. mcguanes a dud and cant dribble them from the boundary or execute a lot of basic skills like most average afl standard players can. If stars kick 5 for the game or have 30+ touches them give them their accolades, but when you hear commentators batting off bc Fyfe or Heppell hit a target 30 metres away or they took a contested mark, or Didak dribbles one from the boundary (skills competent afl players execute each game), it just gets a bit rich.
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Hellenic Tiger on March 18, 2013, 09:23:47 PM
Agree about nat Fyfe, yeah very good young player but stuff me they talk him up. I cant stand when media have a love in with particular players. They kick it 30 metres and they rave, they kick a goal they rave, theyhandball they rave Didak used to kick one from the boundary and it was OOOHHHHH WOWWEEEEEEEE, hes done it again, nevermind that each week your average joe does the same

Yep exactly, Luke mcguane has been averaging a couple of goals a game and playing his role. But its not like they dip him in honey and let the lesbians lick him to death now is it?  ::)

 mcguanes a dud and cant dribble them from the boundary like most average afl standard players can

Come to think of it he can stuff up set shots too and his snap success ratio is low too.
At best an honest battler.
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: bojangles17 on March 18, 2013, 09:50:47 PM
Agree about nat Fyfe, yeah very good young player but stuff me they talk him up. I cant stand when media have a love in with particular players. They kick it 30 metres and they rave, they kick a goal they rave, theyhandball they rave Didak used to kick one from the boundary and it was OOOHHHHH WOWWEEEEEEEE, hes done it again, nevermind that each week your average joe does the same
Lol, ive never seen this fascination in nat fyfe...how many BoG has he chalked up.. :lol
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: tony_montana on March 18, 2013, 10:07:39 PM
Mcguanecwas nothing more than an example, would you prefervibuse the tripod as an example? He can hadly stay on all 3, or lockup? Tyrone a
Has 3 kicks to his name this preseason, sheesh Mcguane is holding thebfort together  :shh :lol

An example of what? I have no idea what point you are trying to make
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: one-eyed on March 19, 2013, 10:33:33 AM
Only two other AFL club captains are tipping up to make the Eight.


Which seven other clubs do you think can make this year's top eight? (18 times seven selections. In 2012, the captains correctly nominated Sydney, Hawthorn, the Adelaide Crows, Collingwood, Fremantle, West Coast and Geelong to play finals, but missed North Melbourne)
Sydney Swans (17), Collingwood (16), Hawthorn (16), West Coast (16), Fremantle (15), Geelong (15), Adelaide Crows (14), Carlton (11), Essendon (2), North Melbourne (2), Richmond (2).

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-03-19/cotchin-the-star-say-skippers
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Eat_em_Alive on March 19, 2013, 10:44:37 AM
Mcguanecwas nothing more than an example, would you prefervibuse the tripod as an example? He can hadly stay on all 3, or lockup? Tyrone a
Has 3 kicks to his name this preseason, sheesh Mcguane is holding thebfort together  :shh :lol

An example of what? I have no idea what point you are trying to make

Tony apologies for my incoherent response full of grammar bombs, I was dosing in and out of sleep on the couch with the tab on my lap waiting for the bloody footy classified to start. And yes I missed the lot  :rollin
The example I was making was in reply to your nat fyfe comment about the average joe doing the same week in and week out. Although I picked Luke Mcguane and some raised eyebrows as I chose him it was an example and partially in jest  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: tony_montana on March 19, 2013, 12:50:02 PM
Mcguanecwas nothing more than an example, would you prefervibuse the tripod as an example? He can hadly stay on all 3, or lockup? Tyrone a
Has 3 kicks to his name this preseason, sheesh Mcguane is holding thebfort together  :shh :lol

An example of what? I have no idea what point you are trying to make

Tony apologies for my incoherent response full of grammar bombs, I was dosing in and out of sleep on the couch with the tab on my lap waiting for the bloody footy classified to start. And yes I missed the lot  :rollin
The example I was making was in reply to your nat fyfe comment about the average joe doing the same week in and week out. Although I picked Luke Mcguane and some raised eyebrows as I chose him it was an example and partially in jest  :thumbsup

All good EeA  :thumbsup I didn't explain myself properly in my initial post
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: one-eyed on March 23, 2013, 03:32:50 AM
WHO WILL JUMP?

Paul Roos
Herald-Sun
Saturday, 23 March 2013


THERE always appears to be a team that jumps up out of nowhere and last year it was the Adelaide Crows. I don't have them in my top four and think they may drop down the ladder.

The loss of Tippet is a big one, and time will tell as to whether they played at their absolutely optimum last season.

That brings us to the next debate as to who may jump up in 2013.

I believe the two most likely teams, despite the Brisbane Lions' outstanding pre-season, are Richmond and Essendon.

The only reason I don't have them in the eight is because I can't make a case for other teams to drop out.

Richmond's biggest problem last season was losing close games and there is no doubt that would have been a huge focus in their off-season.

Role-playing at training and placing players in game like situations would have happened on a regular basis. If they can arrest that worrying trend and win the close games, finals are a genuine consideration.

The Bombers' best 22 looks competitive. Last year they were cruelled by injury and also struggled to match the top teams run.

They looked to have had a much harder pre-season and will start 2013 a lot more confident with their running capacity.

Zaharakis is extremely important to them as he will give them another hard-running midfielder, something they lacked last year.

If they can put the turmoil of the off-season out of their minds, they like Richmond, will genuinely challenge for a spot in the eight.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/stuff-1226603699842
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Eat_em_Alive on March 23, 2013, 06:24:06 AM
Many things are possible however the games between tigers, blues and bombers will be the crucial ones. We will need to look to win all four if we want to play finals. These are what they call 8pt games?

How did the bombers look I fell asleep at halftime and awoke when they were singing the song, overdose on vitamins? :shh
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Phil Mrakov on March 23, 2013, 07:42:14 AM
Many things are possible however the games between tigers, blues and bombers will be the crucial ones. We will need to look to win all four if we want to play finals. These are what they call 8pt games?

How did the bombers look I fell asleep at halftime and awoke when they were singing the song, overdose on vitamins? :shh

It's not that the bombers were good, it's that Adelaide were crap
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Owl on March 23, 2013, 08:30:07 AM
the dopers beat the manipulators
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Smokey on March 23, 2013, 08:37:27 AM
Many things are possible however the games between tigers, blues and bombers will be the crucial ones. We will need to look to win all four if we want to play finals. These are what they call 8pt games?

How did the bombers look I fell asleep at halftime and awoke when they were singing the song, overdose on vitamins? :shh

It's not that the bombers were good, it's that Adelaide were crap

x 2

It was a terrible game to watch with poor skills from both sides, not helped by the rain early on.  Adelaide's intensity was poo.
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: tony_montana on March 23, 2013, 11:01:47 AM
What do you guys think of the new rules? ie the new below the knees contact rule and last years frontal head high contact one?

I can honestly say for the first time I noticed a big difference in the way the game was played, ...and not for the better... I saw hesitation from players trying to tackle front on simply bc the guy with the ball now just drops his head and rams it into the body of the would be tackler = instant free kick, and the incidental contact below knees is rubbish. Players wont have that manic intensity for the contest, its tamed the game considerably.

Last season rnd 1 against the blues, in the 3rd qtr we looked gone, then steven Morris in his first game threw himself at the ball and opponents feet to smother it in the centre of the ground, which resulted in a goal and a momentum swing which saw us then take the lead early in the last. It was stirring stuff, I cant believe that is gone from the game.
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Loui Tufga on March 23, 2013, 11:15:55 AM
Your still allowed to attempt to smother the ball by diving at the it even if it takes out the players Legs In the process! don't forget that that 99% of the time when attempting a smother the ball is either in or leaving the opponents hands not on the ground.
 
Personally I like the new rule, sliding in and diving on the ball on the ground has been a blight in the game for some time now, the rule encourages players  to run at the ball and keep there feet without the fear of having here legs chopped out from underneath them. By mid season we won't even realize the rule exists  ;)
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: tony_montana on March 23, 2013, 11:21:03 AM
Your still allowed to attempt to smother the ball by diving at the it even if it takes out the players Legs In the process! don't forget that that 99% of the time when attempting a smother the ball is either in or leaving the opponents hands not on the ground.
 
Personally I like the new rule, sliding in and diving on the ball on the ground has been a blight in the game for some time now, the rule encourages players  to run at the ball and keep there feet without the fear of having here legs chopped out from underneath them. By mid season we won't even realize the rule exists  ;)

Are you sure about that TFT? From what I saw in the nob cup, anytime there was any contact below the knees period, it was a stuff. what if your diving low to smother as the opposition player tries to kick it off the ground? Sliding in feet first like Goodes did, is a massive no no, but from young we were always taught get in lower than your opponent, if both go in low no legs are swept
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Loui Tufga on March 23, 2013, 12:00:07 PM
Your still allowed to attempt to smother the ball by diving at the it even if it takes out the players Legs In the process! don't forget that that 99% of the time when attempting a smother the ball is either in or leaving the opponents hands not on the ground.
 
Personally I like the new rule, sliding in and diving on the ball on the ground has been a blight in the game for some time now, the rule encourages players  to run at the ball and keep there feet without the fear of having here legs chopped out from underneath them. By mid season we won't even realize the rule exists  ;)

Are you sure about that TFT? From what I saw in the nob cup, anytime there was any contact below the knees period, it was a stuff. what if your diving low to smother as the opposition player tries to kick it off the ground? Sliding in feet first like Goodes did, is a massive no no, but from young we were always taught get in lower than your opponent, if both go in low no legs are swept

Just going off what K.B said on SEN he says that a ligitamate  attempts to smother the ball will not be penalised under the new rule. I think it's a bit different if a player is going to soccer the ball off the ground then he doesn't have possession if a player attempts to dive on it and takes out the other players legs then yes IMO he should be penalised.

The Goodes thing is different again where it is now a reportable of fence to go in legs first like that.

Out of the three below the knees free's paid last night probably the one against Davey was the worst and was defiantly there (even though his dive made it look worse than it actually was)  theother two were a little soft but in the context of the rule they were there.
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: tony_montana on March 23, 2013, 01:35:51 PM
I don't like the rule, I think it will drastically change the way the game is played and like the head high contact rule, players will use it to their advantage by trying to con the umps. Just like players now lead with their head and search for contact by ramming their head at the closest opponent, players will start to run to the ball at the same time as opponents jump on it to get below the knees contact.
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: Loui Tufga on March 23, 2013, 02:00:44 PM
I don't like the rule, I think it will drastically change the way the game is played and like the head high contact rule, players will use it to their advantage by trying to con the umps. Just like players now lead with their head and search for contact by ramming their head at the closest opponent, players will start to run to the ball at the same time as opponents jump on it to get below the knees contact.

The easy fix there is "don't jump on the ball" keep your feet and pick it up, can't be that hard to get used to? Diving on the ball has only really crept into the game in the last 10 years anyway as a tactic to create stoppages......
Title: Re: Richmond season preview for 2013 (Herald-Sun)
Post by: tony_montana on March 23, 2013, 03:05:06 PM
I don't like the rule, I think it will drastically change the way the game is played and like the head high contact rule, players will use it to their advantage by trying to con the umps. Just like players now lead with their head and search for contact by ramming their head at the closest opponent, players will start to run to the ball at the same time as opponents jump on it to get below the knees contact.

The easy fix there is "don't jump on the ball" keep your feet and pick it up, can't be that hard to get used to? Diving on the ball has only really crept into the game in the last 10 years anyway as a tactic to create stoppages......

Personally, I noticed a big difference in the game and the way players went for the ball.
Keep your feet and pick it up - I wonder how many head clashes we're going to see? Don't have a problem with forceful contact, its dangerous and should be adjudicated as such, and should have been for years, the rule was already there... but incidental tiggy touchwood contact..