One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: unplugged on June 03, 2014, 09:08:47 PM
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Richmond's lack of competitiveness this year under Hardwick is almost mirror like to his predecessors in Wallace and Frawley.
The symptoms haven't changed.
Lack of numbers at contests = huge drop in performance across the board.
Look at the speed of the players against Essendon.
Thomas (Very Slow)
Maric (Very Slow - returning from Injury)
Hampson (Very Slow - carrying knee injury)
Jackson (Very Slow - Groin Injury)
Chaplin (Slow)
Grigg (Slow - carrying injury)
Griffiths (Slow)
Conca (Slow to medium) (workrate?)
Trent Cotchin (Slow to medium - Carrying Ankle Injury)
Deledio Medium (Carrying Achilles) I highlight him because he is normally quick.
You can carry a slow player if his performance in other areas is exceptional.
Tuck was slow around the ground, but was quick at a contest, could read the play, was strong overhead
and gave us first use of the ball. This meant our slow players spent less time chasing. None of the
players above excepting Deledio and Cotchin are exceptional in any areas. Hampson possibly with his ruck work.
You can live with Chapman and Hampson being slow because the majority of the time, they will have slow match ups. You just can't expect to be competitive with that many slow players in one team and especially when so many of them are midfielders.
Why is this such an issue?
Example 1: Cotchin, Conca, Thomas and Jackson go for the ball. Cotchin just gets there, makes a contest,
gets swamped by opposition players and dispossessed. The ball is cleared, then Conca,
Thomas, and Jackson show up (in that order). Too late.
Example 2: The ball moves up the wing. The ball is carried across the ground. Conca, Thomas and Jackson trail distantly behind their opponents. They can't keep up. The opposition run in numbers and have an overlap. Their disposal efficiency goes up due to lack of pressure on the ball carrier and receiver.
Example 3: Next contest, you have Griffiths, Grigg, Deledio and Hampson. Hampson taps to Deledio, Deledio makes a contest,
gets swamped, ball taken away again. Other guys watch on with their hands on their hips.
It doesn't take long for the competitive players in the side, Deledio, Rance, Cotchin, Riewoldt etc. to say to themselves after being
hammered every time they go near the ball. "Stuff this". They stop running as hard, they get rid of the ball as fast as
they can. They look like hacks now as well. The game plan looks ridiculously bad. Ball movement is slow
and hesitant, you don't want to kick the ball because your scared you will never get it back and you will look bad chasing someone elses
opponent. Every option is covered by 2-3 opposition players. Your teammates are still up the other end of the ground, waiting for the rebound.
The fix is simple. Slow players out. Faster players in.
Thomas, Maric, Griffiths, Jackson, Grigg. They all need to go next week. Vlastuin, Miles, Gordon, Helbig and Arnot must come in.
The least our coaching staff should demand is an even number of players at the majority of the contests. If you get beaten by a better team, so be it. If you get beaten by a worse team because your bottom five players can't run, there are no excuses.
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Good stuff
Your actually correct
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yes that sounds very logical.
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Gordon & Banfumbles are our only players that are notably quick. i.e. comparable to White. Darrou deserves to be upgraded moreso than Banfumbles, but pace is what the side desperately needs so the latter should be upgraded after round 11 regardless of his VFL figures. Bloke's played AFL and was pretty good for at least one season before his game went to poo, see how he goes with better players around him again. Nothing to lose now.
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Gordon & Banfumbles are our only players that are notably quick. i.e. comparable to White. Darrou deserves to be upgraded moreso than Banfumbles, but pace is what the side desperately needs so the latter should be upgraded after round 11 regardless of his VFL figures. Bloke's played AFL and was pretty good for at least one season before his game went to poo, see how he goes with better players around him again. Nothing to lose now.
Need to recruit players who are notably quick over the summer period. Agree got nothing to lose. Problem is they have been playing Banfield as a forward not a linking midfielder therefore may not have the tank to go into midfield.. Need someone who can break the lines
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2014 slogan should have been - We're Slower than Treacle.
It is no doubt the stem of all our problems.
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i think it as much mindset as leg speed.
too may playing wanting to run to a position to receive a cheap kick rather getting numbers to the contest.
one incident that stuck in my mind was Ellis running with his opponent towards a one on one. his opponent went straight to contest to create a two on one while Ellis ran forward of the contest. no prizes for guessing the outcome. (Pretty sure the neighbours heard all about that)
Hardwick highlighted a similar incident where three richmond players peeled off rather than getting to the contest, while their Dons counterparts did. again not hard to guess the result.
All the leg speed in the world is useless if the player has no intent of getting to the contest.
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Vlastuin, Miles, Gordon, Helbig and Arnot
Not sure if any of these players are actually very fast especially Arnott and Helbig, but certainly faster than Thomas and co.
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No one could possibly be slower than Thomas.
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i think it as much mindset as leg speed.
too may playing wanting to run to a position to receive a cheap kick rather getting numbers to the contest.
one incident that stuck in my mind was Ellis running with his opponent towards a one on one. his opponent went straight to contest to create a two on one while Ellis ran forward of the contest. no prizes for guessing the outcome. (Pretty sure the neighbours heard all about that)
Hardwick highlighted a similar incident where three richmond players peeled off rather than getting to the contest, while their Dons counterparts did. again not hard to guess the result.
All the leg speed in the world is useless if the player has no intent of getting to the contest.
Add to that, we have only lost 1 fast player from last year's senior side - White who often played as a sub - yet last year we didn't look slow and we certainly didn't play slow. In fact we usually burned teams off with pace so the 'slowness' has to have come from either lack of application, lack of fitness or much more likely, both.
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Agree with the speed 100%. Like you say banfield should be given a crack. A pity about White and in hindsight a poor decision, in fact a shocking decision. Whoever was the mastermind of that one should be castrated.
Another critical issue was highlighted against Essendon. If you are marking someone, MARK THEM. Essendon players stuck to our boys like glue when we had the ball. Conversely we gave our opponents 2-5 metres every time when Ess had possession. Just not good enough.
PLUS please stop bagging Thomas. He is what he is and I think pretty good. Sure he may not be our future but we drafted him and he is 100% genuine. If all our players took their chances like Thomas we would be much more competitive
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Agree with the speed 100%. Like you say banfield should be given a crack. A pity about White and in hindsight a poor decision, in fact a shocking decision. Whoever was the mastermind of that one should be castrated.
Another critical issue was highlighted against Essendon. If you are marking someone, MARK THEM. Essendon players stuck to our boys like glue when we had the ball. Conversely we gave our opponents 2-5 metres every time when Ess had possession. Just not good enough.
PLUS please stop bagging Thomas. He is what he is and I think pretty good. Sure he may not be our future but we drafted him and he is 100% genuine. If all our players took their chances like Thomas we would be much more competitive
Speed is no doubt our Achilles Heel, even when we do mark man on man a flat out foot race has our guys always behind, on top of that a deficiency in football smarts just adds to our inability to win contested ball. When taking this into account it means quite frankly that with the playing group we have and the current speed of the game we are simply not good enough in most cases.
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Not fixable
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We were a quicker team last year (not quick). Tuck gave us first use of the ball. We had a super easy draw. The opposition allowed us a loose man so we were able to play possession football. Our ball movement was quicker because we had loose targets to kick to. Speed issues are much less noticeable when you have possession than when you are chasing.
When the opposition played one on one against us last year, we got smashed. Only have to look at the Carlton final. You can look at a lot of games where we have been dominating only to fall in a hole as soon as the opposition man up. Leg speed isn't our only issue but fixing it in the short term will at least provide us with a contest.
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You would hope long kicking can compensate for lack of leg speed but then we dont' kick long (at least not often enough) either.
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not much point in kicking long if the opposition are set up to defend it.
thats why good sides will chip the ball in an attempt to switch the play to find space and move the ball to where the opposition isnt, or find the overlap
this relies on two things. good skills and more importantly work rate to create the options. Mostly what we have seen this year when we switch the play in the back half is the opposition working harder than us to get into the space. the poor bugger with the ball looks up and sees nothing so has to go short again, and the whole process repeats itself with everyone going bat crap and screaming about why we chip it around.
we have become a lazy side, not a slower side. as smokey pointed out, the only speed we have lost from last year is white, and he hardly played a full game.
Our workrate is deplorable. we dont work hard enough to get numbers to the contest, to set up our defensive structures correctly or hard enough to get into space to create options. That is the crux of the our problem and is the major difference from last year.
The side is lazy, not slow.
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:yep
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I thought we lacked pace overall when White was still on our books and needed to bring in more.
Still generally advantageous for a side have good leg speed, not just when you have the ball but also when you don't. Especially when you play a gamestyle like ours that leaves you more open to the quick counter attack.
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I thought we lacked pace overall when White was still on our books and needed to bring in more.
Still generally advantageous for a side have good leg speed, not just when you have the ball but also when you don't. Especially when you play a gamestyle like ours that leaves you more open to the quick counter attack.
Exactly! :clapping :clapping :clapping
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I thought we lacked pace overall when White was still on our books and needed to bring in more.
Still generally advantageous for a side have good leg speed, not just when you have the ball but also when you don't. Especially when you play a gamestyle like ours that leaves you more open to the quick counter attack.
Fair call. We have not for a long time been a particularly quick side.
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Good thread.
Agree with Al about the peeling off thing. It looks good and wins you games if your engine room is firing, but ours isn't, so everyone needs to pitch in.
In fact we usually burned teams off with pace so the 'slowness' has to have come from either lack of application, lack of fitness or much more likely, both.
Yep agree these are the 2 main issues. The mental application is just not there and as a result the chemistry is shot. Fitness I think a bit less so, but it sure looks like we've been caught short this year. Things were wrong from the start with the delayed Maric op and now we have our captain playing through an ankle which is minimum 2 but usually 3. Fitness staff have a lot to answer for.
Now going back to the issue of speed, I know it does not need to be said yet again but I can't help it. Losing Matty White for no compo was a disgraceful decision by the club. His contract was so low that he was deemed not to be worthy of compensation by Papa Demetriou! And we still couldn't sign him! Unbelievable.
I thought we lacked pace overall when White was still on our books and needed to bring in more.
We did but there wasn't much on offer, which is why Port couldn't believe their luck on such a cheap signing.
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At the end of the day. Due to the way the game has developed into a running festival with rubgy overtones
If you are slow you gotta be really good. Sam Mitchell / Greg williams
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Unplugged, I thought our issue under Wallace was that we had a lot of fast players that used to get pushed around too easily, couldn't win their own ball and the crying back in those days was, 'we are too soft', too many flankers, too many skinny kids lol
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Unplugged, I thought our issue under Wallace was that we had a lot of fast players that used to get pushed around too easily, couldn't win their own ball and the crying back in those days was, 'we are too soft', too many flankers, too many skinny kids lol
Listening to Richo the other day it seems like Wallace changed the game plan so often the players couldn't perfect anything.....
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i think it as much mindset as leg speed.
too may playing wanting to run to a position to receive a cheap kick rather getting numbers to the contest.
one incident that stuck in my mind was Ellis running with his opponent towards a one on one. his opponent went straight to contest to create a two on one while Ellis ran forward of the contest. no prizes for guessing the outcome. (Pretty sure the neighbours heard all about that)
Hardwick highlighted a similar incident where three richmond players peeled off rather than getting to the contest, while their Dons counterparts did. again not hard to guess the result.
All the leg speed in the world is useless if the player has no intent of getting to the contest.
Add to that, we have only lost 1 fast player from last year's senior side - White who often played as a sub - yet last year we didn't look slow and we certainly didn't play slow. In fact we usually burned teams off with pace so the 'slowness' has to have come from either lack of application, lack of fitness or much more likely, both.
I think you are right here Smokey - we were not a slow team last year yet with minimal changes this year we suddenly look slow. Realistically I believe it has more to do with the opposition denying us space and time. We have been forced to play more accountable, man-on-man football which some of our players are not suited for. Our normal stoppage structure has been broken down by our opposition and we no longer have the outlet players free to then kick it wide to players like Ellis and Grigg. Realistically Cotchin is well down on his 2013 output because he is being tagged mercilessly with Lids effectiveness down on last year due to his injury.
Maric's absence has also hurt. He would always create space around contests and is unpredictable with his tap work. Hampson tends to tap to the same spots and same people which is easy to defend whereas Maric would often target the players like Conca, Jackson and Edwards who would then move it on quickly to a sprinting Cotchin. This was hard to combat.
Thomas and Hampson are slow inclusions and do not run and spread from stoppages. For all the statistical benefits these guys bring they are missing the intangibles or footy smarts to create the run we need.
Injuries to key players are still hurting too
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Perhaps if get players get hurt they should be rested instead of be played with injury for the long term good :whistle
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Perhaps if get players get hurt they should be rested instead of be played with injury for the long term good :whistle
That's sometimes harder than you think when their replacement is a long way behind. Sometimes a injured quality player is still better than an average bit player.
I agree with you though at this stage of the season. The season is shot so might as well start looking to next year and the future and periodically resting players like Lids, Cotch, Jackson, Hampson etc to get over their injuries and at the same time giving those VFL players that deserve it a chance. We've finally brought in Miles and I hope they give Helbig and some of the other players that have been on the list for a while a shot too. Time to see if they will make it or not.
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Perhaps if get players get hurt they should be rested instead of be played with injury for the long term good :whistle
That's sometimes harder than you think when their replacement is a long way behind. Sometimes a injured quality player is still better than an average bit player.
I agree with you though at this stage of the season. The season is shot so might as well start looking to next year and the future and periodically resting players like Lids, Cotch, Jackson, Hampson etc to get over their injuries and at the same time giving those VFL players that deserve it a chance. We've finally brought in Miles and I hope they give Helbig and some of the other players that have been on the list for a while a shot too. Time to see if they will make it or not.
And injuryed good player is often better than. A fit poor player yes.
But playing the good player with injury perhaps means you are to stuff up the body of said good injured yet playing footballer.
Long term a poor option
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Perhaps if get players get hurt they should be rested instead of be played with injury for the long term good :whistle
That's sometimes harder than you think when their replacement is a long way behind. Sometimes a injured quality player is still better than an average bit player.
I agree with you though at this stage of the season. The season is shot so might as well start looking to next year and the future and periodically resting players like Lids, Cotch, Jackson, Hampson etc to get over their injuries and at the same time giving those VFL players that deserve it a chance. We've finally brought in Miles and I hope they give Helbig and some of the other players that have been on the list for a while a shot too. Time to see if they will make it or not.
And injuryed good player is often better than. A fit poor player yes.
But playing the good player with injury perhaps means you are to stuff up the body of said good injured yet playing footballer.
Long term a poor option
No doubt but with players with injuries that just need to be managed and are unlikely to get any worse by playing them such as Lids or Maric then that's where the question on selection comes into it.
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Perhaps if get players get hurt they should be rested instead of be played with injury for the long term good :whistle
That's sometimes harder than you think when their replacement is a long way behind. Sometimes a injured quality player is still better than an average bit player.
I agree with you though at this stage of the season. The season is shot so might as well start looking to next year and the future and periodically resting players like Lids, Cotch, Jackson, Hampson etc to get over their injuries and at the same time giving those VFL players that deserve it a chance. We've finally brought in Miles and I hope they give Helbig and some of the other players that have been on the list for a while a shot too. Time to see if they will make it or not.
And injuryed good player is often better than. A fit poor player yes.
But playing the good player with injury perhaps means you are to stuff up the body of said good injured yet playing footballer.
Long term a poor option
No doubt but with players with injuries that just need to be managed and are unlikely to get any worse by playing them such as Lids or Maric then that's where the question on selection comes into it.
They may not get worse but they definitely won't get better.
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Perhaps if get players get hurt they should be rested instead of be played with injury for the long term good :whistle
That's sometimes harder than you think when their replacement is a long way behind. Sometimes a injured quality player is still better than an average bit player.
I agree with you though at this stage of the season. The season is shot so might as well start looking to next year and the future and periodically resting players like Lids, Cotch, Jackson, Hampson etc to get over their injuries and at the same time giving those VFL players that deserve it a chance. We've finally brought in Miles and I hope they give Helbig and some of the other players that have been on the list for a while a shot too. Time to see if they will make it or not.
And injuryed good player is often better than. A fit poor player yes.
But playing the good player with injury perhaps means you are to stuff up the body of said good injured yet playing footballer.
Long term a poor option
No doubt but with players with injuries that just need to be managed and are unlikely to get any worse by playing them such as Lids or Maric then that's where the question on selection comes into it.
They may not get worse but they definitely won't get better.
This is true :yep Then you have to get into the discussion about whether we are playing for the present or the future. Seasons shot so I say rest the injured players so they can heal but it all depends on where Dimma sees our chances this year.Given the amount of outs this week I think he has accepted the truth of the season.
I just hope he now experiments with different players, different structures and a different game plan for the rest of the year.
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im not convinced the game plan is the problem,as when they are on song, they play a game that is good to watch and conductive to high scoring. We have seen that they can can match it with the best and score very quickly
The problem seems to be the implementation of the game plan, for whatever reason.
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They are "on song" when, al? Against GWS? Get your hand off it. Clearly changes to need to be made.
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what changes would you make to the game plan phil?
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They are "on song" when, al? Against GWS? Get your hand off it. Clearly changes to need to be made.
There have been moments during the games we have lost that have had our best footy on display. E.g. Geelong, bulldogs. Aside from that, our losses have looked bereft of direction.
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How was Dea's chase on Pavlich on the weekend. How does "the fastest player at Richmond" according to the commentators not make ground on an ancient guy bouncing the ball all the way up the wing. Pavlich had time to slow down and kick the goal, such was the gap he put on Dea.
Under previous coaches, the biggest problem with our speed has been a desire to play too many slow talls. Now we still do that, but our overall list is devoid of pace. It was embarrassing to watch Ballantyne run away time and time again and not have anyone who could go with him. That push on Edwards under the feet of the umpire summed up our game and what I think of Edwards as a player.. Soft.
Why is Morris still playing with that injured shoulder when it is so painfully obvious he can't lay a tackle with it.
queue - X-Files music...... Aliens have taken over punt road.
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How was Dea's chase on Pavlich on the weekend. How does "the fastest player at Richmond" according to the commentators not make ground on an ancient guy bouncing the ball all the way up the wing. Pavlich had time to slow down and kick the goal, such was the gap he put on Dea.
Under previous coaches, the biggest problem with our speed has been a desire to play too many slow talls. Now we still do that, but our overall list is devoid of pace. It was embarrassing to watch Ballantyne run away time and time again and not have anyone who could go with him. That push on Edwards under the feet of the umpire summed up our game and what I think of Edwards as a player.. Soft.
Why is Morris still playing with that injured shoulder when it is so painfully obvious he can't lay a tackle with it.
queue - X-Files music...... Aliens have taken over punt road.
l have said this for several years & only mentioned it last month ;D
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Who on Earth said Dea was our fastest player :gobdrop