One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Tiger Spirit on August 01, 2005, 11:49:01 AM
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I used to think that maybe Cogs was capable of more than what he’s shown this season, but instead he seems destined to follow in the footsteps of others within the team who have played the game at one pace their whole career.
Never mind that he’s built differently. Not sure why he was given such a big engine when he’s happy to stroll around in the same gear all the time. I know we should be grateful that he’s even out there, after what he’s been through, but why were we so looking forward to his come back? We’re crying out for players who can change the course of a game, lift the intensity and tempo of a game and at one stage Cogs looked like he could be such a player. Instead, we seem to be developing yet another player who is happy to stay in his comfort zone his whole career and be Mr. Solid Citizen. Nothing terribly wrong with that, except we’ve had enough ‘solid citizens’ in the past to sink a battle ship; and where has it got us?
It’s not his fault that some of us built him up to be something he’s not and may never be. More fool us for thinking someone might be capable of more than they see in themselves. It doesn’t help that he probably doesn’t have the same confidence and belief in himself that others do. How anyone could hope to improve on that by living in the comfort zone I’m not sure.
But, it’s his career and he’s the one that has to live it and be happy with it.
And if that’s the case then maybe we should just move on to generation next; no use knocking on a door that’s slammed shut.
Of the players that were out there yesterday, the ones who looked the most capable of playing the game at a level that could compete and match it with better opposition were all young and inexperienced players. So at least we have something to look forward to there; as long as they don’t also allow themselves to get into the Richmond comfort zone.
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Cogs was 3rd in the AFL prior to yesterday at winning contested footy so that part of his game is still strong. However he struggles to kick 40m. I didn't take much notice of it before his groin/pelvic problems so not sure if that's the reason but there sure is no penetration in his kicking anymore. When he had that set shot yesterday I was surprised it went straight through. Maybe it just was on the limit of his range.
The A-grade midfielders in the comp have the ability to win the ball in traffic, break free into space at pace and deliver pinpoint passes. Lids has that potential in him. Cogs doesn't have that. Cogs is more your in and under type which you still need. It's our fault we built up Cogs reputation. We were so desperate after 2001 and continually getting smashed in the midfield for guys who could win hard ball gets that finding young Cogs was like a dream come true. We as a club have learn to build up a top team and list; not a side that relies on 2-3 stars to get us over the line each week like we have in the past.
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That’s true MT, but the concern, for me anyway, is that once we have half decent players, do we know how to take them to the next level? I’ve been asking myself this for a number of years, and I don’t know if we’re any better now than before at developing players. Where’s the evidence to suggest we are?
I know it’s a bit unfair, as it’s TW’s first season and I’m sure it wouldn’t help that he’s probably inherited the most introverted list going around, which could make it even harder on any coach to get the results he asks from these players. And it wouldn’t help either that he’s got no depth to call on right now, which probably puts added pressure on players who wouldn’t generally have so much asked of them. But these things happen in footy and you have to be ready for anything.
The simple answer seems to be that we just need to continue to build the list. But this takes time and what does a better list guarantee anyway, if you aren’t able to develop players? You can only judge what the future will be like by the players out there now.
We say the younger players are coming along, but that’s all well and good while there’s minimal pressure on them to perform. We said the same thing about Cogs a couple of years ago. Now people are criticising him left, right and centre. It’s in a couple of years time when we’ll probably get to find out how good our development skills are, by which time it could already be too late.
If Cogs is any indication then should we start worrying? This definitely isn’t meant as a criticism of Cogs, but questioning whether RFC actually does know how to develop players and get something more out of them than just stock standard efforts and results. Up until this year, he’d been allowed to basically do his own thing, but now that he’s gotta take more responsibility and be more accountable, he seems to have lost any sort of spark he may have had. And he’s less likely to use any initiative and play with that devil may care attitude he used to play with that was so inspirational.
Who knows, maybe the impact of last season’s injury has taken it’s toll, or maybe it’s something else, but I’m sure players at other Clubs go through a similar learning curve, but somehow, in the process, we seem to manage to kill off any individual spark and character players have and turn them into robots, which makes us boring as bath water to watch and ten times as frustrating.
I don’t really know, but if Cogs is any indication then is that what we have to look forward to with the other players coming through? You’d like to think things will be different in the future, but it would be more reassuring if you could actually be convinced of anything for once, rather than just live in hope all the time.
I know I go on about this, but I haven’t really seen anything yet that suggests we’re any better than before, in this area.
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It's a fair point TS and after one year of Wallace we can't give a definite answer either way whether we've improved in regards to developing our young cubs to become the players the should become.
Cogs is a difficult example as he's missed virtually all of last year with his "pelvic instability" problem and didn't start full training to later on in the pre-season. How much that has affected his kicking I don't know. He's still has to manage himself carefully so it doesn't flare up again. At least by round 1, 2006 he should have a full preseason behind him which is a big factor these days.
As for the other players coming through (drafts 2000-2002) it's mixed news and not one A-grader.
Hyde - improved out of site although still just average. The head fracture interrupted his year.
Rodan was apparenty like Hyde flying during preseason before doing his knee so still a mystery how he'll go under Wallace. Looked shot under Spud.
Schulz had the D&D/TAC incident before injurying his ankle. Needs to prove a point to the Club.
Pettifer - better than previous years (not hard mind you).
Krakouer - inconsistent week by week. Starring roles mixed with disappearing acts.
Newman - got spanked a couple of times as a back pocket but has rediscovered his run. Up with Bowden as our leading rebounder out of defensive 50.
Moore (rookie 2003-2004; onto senior list in 2005) - played mainly VFL.
2003 - only in their 2nd year:
Tuck - a relevation this year although he's more a late developer like his dad.
Raines, Jackson, Foley (rookie) - yo-yoing at this stage.
Archibald, Gilmour - unseen at AFL. Archibald had OP in his first year.
2004 - too early to judge. Potentially our first A-grader in Deledio but emphasising the word "potentially"
Deledio and Thursfield (rookie) are the ones who have progressed to the AFL the quickest and haven't looked out of place.
I would like another preseason under Wallace before judging if our cub development is where it should be. Another year of 11 skill sessions a week rather than the paltry 3 under Spud and more gym work to build up young bodies.
Remember also that Geischen and especially Spud left a huge mid-age hole in our list. Most of our guys are either 27+ or 21 and under. Pretty hard to develop a young side when you draft so few youngsters in the first place :scream. This is the time when this missing "generation" should of been hitting their peak and making up the main chunk of our playing list. At least with the last two drafts we went for youth and more youth so they won't be in so precious supply that we build up unrealistic expectations on the few we have and we can objectively sort out the good ones and let go of the ones that don't make it. We now need to keep doing this from now on. Thankfully Wallace has said previously no first round picks will be traded away.
It's a fact of life in footy that a number of them won't be around in 2-3 years. IMO picking up 3 long term players (about 1 kid for every 2 draft picks) from each draft should be the pass mark to improve and become/stay a good side and when you have an opportunity like we did last year with 4 first rounders you should obviously do even better than that in terms of numbers and quality. IIRC from 1997-2002 which is 6 drafts and something like 42 picks (including rookies) we have ended up with just 11 long-term players which is 1 in 4 draft picks and that stat is inflated because we've still got 5 players from the 2000 draft alone. So that was 6 blokes from the other 5 drafts - just 1 long-term player for every 6 draft picks :help. So much for development of kids at Tigerland during that time :P.
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about cogs, now he is a worry. from what i know his condition will never get better it just has to be managaed. now i know he is a gutsy hard at it player and can take a strongh contested mark also but his disposal , even in his jdm yr has never been a a satisfactory level and for this reason i believe the tigers should use his as trade bait and get a decent vic back from WA. i know many would think im crazy but his condition wont allow him to play at peak levels for an entire season ever again, his courage is there but skills not and his skill i dont think will improve as its all realted to his kicking action and injuries. i believe in the best interest of the club we should trade him and use his high reputation to get someone who can benefit the club better in the long term. maybe im just crazy but thats how i see it.
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Injury shminjury X. What you say sounds like reasonable logic and I agree that we need to improve our list, but it takes more than better players to build a good club. Apart from anything else, I don’t know that RFC would want to contend with the backlash.
Maybe I’d be wrong on that, but the ‘first we use them and then we chuck ‘em out when they’ve served their purpose’ mentality wouldn’t come across as a good PR move, or say anything good about the culture of our footy club. I know things change with time and that it’s all business now, blah, blah, flippin’ blah, but some of us (i.e. me :P) are naïve enough to think that there’s still a speck of a human element left in this competition. After everything that’s gone on before, such a thing would seem like a huge back flip, by all concerned.
And any credibility RFC may have built up in recent times could easily disappear if they contemplated going down that track, unless something has dramatically changed in recent times. Because what could it possibly say, of any club, when a player, because he performs better than most around him, is then, whether he’s ready for it or not, seen as some sort of saviour in hard times and chosen to promote and be the face of his Club? Then, in the space of 2 seasons he’s shown the door before his value ‘potentially’ diminishes?
I don’t know about you X, but I’d be a bit confused as to what this footy club’s all about, if that were to happen and, despite this being the 21st century, I could have a problem with that sort of treatment, and maybe others might too.
Where do you get these ideas from? :rollin
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It's a fair point TS and after one year of Wallace we can't give a definite answer either way whether we've improved in regards to developing our young cubs to become the players the should become.
Cogs is a difficult example as he's missed virtually all of last year with his "pelvic instability" problem and didn't start full training to later on in the pre-season. How much that has affected his kicking I don't know. He's still has to manage himself carefully so it doesn't flare up again. At least by round 1, 2006 he should have a full preseason behind him which is a big factor these days.
As for the other players coming through (drafts 2000-2002) it's mixed news and not one A-grader.
Hyde - improved out of site although still just average. The head fracture interrupted his year.
Rodan was apparenty like Hyde flying during preseason before doing his knee so still a mystery how he'll go under Wallace. Looked shot under Spud.
Schulz had the D&D/TAC incident before injurying his ankle. Needs to prove a point to the Club.
Pettifer - better than previous years (not hard mind you).
Krakouer - inconsistent week by week. Starring roles mixed with disappearing acts.
Newman - got spanked a couple of times as a back pocket but has rediscovered his run. Up with Bowden as our leading rebounder out of defensive 50.
Moore (rookie 2003-2004; onto senior list in 2005) - played mainly VFL.
2003 - only in their 2nd year:
Tuck - a relevation this year although he's more a late developer like his dad.
Raines, Jackson, Foley (rookie) - yo-yoing at this stage.
Archibald, Gilmour - unseen at AFL. Archibald had OP in his first year.
2004 - too early to judge. Potentially our first A-grader in Deledio but emphasising the word "potentially"
Deledio and Thursfield (rookie) are the ones who have progressed to the AFL the quickest and haven't looked out of place.
I would like another preseason under Wallace before judging if our cub development is where it should be. Another year of 11 skill sessions a week rather than the paltry 3 under Spud and more gym work to build up young bodies.
Remember also that Geischen and especially Spud left a huge mid-age hole in our list. Most of our guys are either 27+ or 21 and under. Pretty hard to develop a young side when you draft so few youngsters in the first place :scream. This is the time when this missing "generation" should of been hitting their peak and making up the main chunk of our playing list. At least with the last two drafts we went for youth and more youth so they won't be in so precious supply that we build up unrealistic expectations on the few we have and we can objectively sort out the good ones and let go of the ones that don't make it. We now need to keep doing this from now on. Thankfully Wallace has said previously no first round picks will be traded away.
It's a fact of life in footy that a number of them won't be around in 2-3 years. IMO picking up 3 long term players (about 1 kid for every 2 draft picks) from each draft should be the pass mark to improve and become/stay a good side and when you have an opportunity like we did last year with 4 first rounders you should obviously do even better than that in terms of numbers and quality. IIRC from 1997-2002 which is 6 drafts and something like 42 picks (including rookies) we have ended up with just 11 long-term players which is 1 in 4 draft picks and that stat is inflated because we've still got 5 players from the 2000 draft alone. So that was 6 blokes from the other 5 drafts - just 1 long-term player for every 6 draft picks :help. So much for development of kids at Tigerland during that time :P.
Well said. Our list is still very poor. And needs a number of rebuilding years yet.
Your sides core is made up the players whom have played 80-200 games and are aged about 23-28. We have the likes of Morrison, Hilton, Tivendale... Our list is like bookends. We have very little in the middle, some class up the top and a few promising kids.
Other the next 3 years you hope our core will develop from: Hall, Tuck, Pettifer, Cogs, Newman, Hyde, Krak, Rodan - aged 25-22 currently.
The likes of Gaspar, Kellaway, Graham, Richo, Stafford, Campbell, are all 29+ and entering their last seasons. It is the leadership group and mature players: Brown, Johnson, Simmonds (sigh), Bowden, Chaffey whom must lead the club in the future.
We have a decent group of 21-18's: Hartigan, Schultz, Roach, Archilbad, Pattison, Foley, Thursfeilds, Jackson, Gilmour, Meyer, Polo, Tambling, Limbach, Mcgaune, Deledio. but they will get us no where unless you have a decent core and leadership group. And then only, maybe half of those will make it as 100+ game AFL players.
Long way to go yet.
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Agree CB. Our list is totally out of whack because of that mid-age gap left by Geischen's and Spud's idiotic recruiting bar one year. It's going to take the whole of Wallace's 5 years just to get our list back into proper balance. Deledio, Tambling, Meyer, Pattison and Thursfield for instance will still just be around 22-23 years of age by then with Cogs, Tuck, Newman, Hyde and co becoming the base of that core group you speak of CB. Yep we've got a long way to go.
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It's a fact of life in footy that a number of them won't be around in 2-3 years. IMO picking up 3 long term players (about 1 kid for every 2 draft picks) from each draft should be the pass mark to improve and become/stay a good side and when you have an opportunity like we did last year with 4 first rounders you should obviously do even better than that in terms of numbers and quality. IIRC from 1997-2002 which is 6 drafts and something like 42 picks (including rookies) we have ended up with just 11 long-term players which is 1 in 4 draft picks and that stat is inflated because we've still got 5 players from the 2000 draft alone. So that was 6 blokes from the other 5 drafts - just 1 long-term player for every 6 draft picks :help. So much for development of kids at Tigerland during that time :P.
Seems your stats support my views MT, to some degree at least. You don’t expect that every player will make it, but you should be able to expect a better return than what your stats tell us.
The ‘missing’ or lack of mid-range players is obviously a concern and it’s unlikely that we can expect any dramatic improvement until that area improves and we have a more balanced list.
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You don’t expect that every player will make it, but you should be able to expect a better return than what your stats tell us.
That's so true TS but not when you waste so many picks on recycled types such as Biddiscombe, Sampson, Hudson, Houlihan, Fleming, Nichols, Blumfield, Fletcher, Weller and Marsh. Then there was also Hilton and Stafford in exchange for our first round picks.
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Some of you blokes must be taking some weird Sh*ite. Who would wanna play for Richmond if we used Cogs as trade bait ?
So damn quick to jump off. The bloke couldnt play for a year !
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I used to think that maybe Cogs was capable of more than what he’s shown this season, but instead he seems destined to follow in the footsteps of others within the team who have played the game at one pace their whole career.
Who says? Lay off our young kids - i had a go at someone who was having a go at Tivs earlier in the year, and they were so feral i'm thinking they'd start having a go at Cogs soon. Seems this has started already and very disappointing to hear. I'm pretty sure one day he will live up to your lofty expectations ::)
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Yeah, you’re right Moi, if I’m going to be critical of anyone I should be critical of myself for having such expectations.
I wouldn’t be too worried about me going around bagging Cogs though, if that’s what you’re thinking.
In another post I also went on and said something about the Club’s ability to develop players, which, after thinking about what I had originally posted, was more the point I was trying to get at, rather than wanting to criticise Cogs.
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To have an expectation of someone is a compliment. If that person then gives up on you then that could be more of an issue than having the expectation in the first place. And I reckon that over the years, Richmond supporters have just about given up expecting anything of our players. There have always been those players who have started well, or shown glimpses here and there, but that’s been about it, for the most part. I guess it’s harder in a team that’s lived in the cellar for so long.
Regardless of what stage teams are at in their development though, all coaches would need to have some expectations of their players that they can and will improve. Whether they actually do or not is mostly up to the players themselves, although coaching and other things obviously come into it as well.
Some players seem to come into the AFL already knowing, to some degree, what they are capable of and others need someone to see it in them and help them get that out of them. Expectations can have a negative impact when they are either too low or too high for a player’s capacity and so can depend on their level of self-belief and confidence.
Seeing some of the players drafted in the last year or so, it becomes glaringly obvious that what we have really lacked in past seasons is players with a true competitive edge to them, with expectations of themselves to match their capacity. Over the years, too many of our players have instead appeared too content to stay within their comfort zone and, even worse, been allowed to stay there, regardless of their true capabilities. That’s poor development/recruiting/coaching, you name it, because we’ve had players with understated expectations of themselves, or who have been just plain unmotivated, going around unchecked, season after season.
We’re either in the business of getting the best out of players, who are prepared to learn and make the necessary sacrifices, or we just want to be nice to them and pay them lots of money for the privilege. Recent recruiting suggests that we’re heading in the direction of recruiting players with a competitive edge to them and with some confidence to match. Amen to that.
Hopefully, if recent examples are anything to go by, we may soon have a chance of seeing some players reach the level they’re capable of. Chris Hyde is an example of a player who needed to see what he was capable of, before he could believe it of himself. Unless someone else saw that in him, and encouraged him enough in that direction, he may never have had the courage or the opportunity to test himself and find out what else he is actually capable of. Shane Tuck is probably in a similar category.
That’s the positive side of expectations and seeing something better in a player. Cogs is a player I’ve had high expectations of because of what he’s achieved in such a short time. Unfortunately, injury hasn’t helped him, but despite our track record with developing players, it’s unfair to judge anything about Cogs, based on this season, other than to say it’s a credit to himself that he’s probably even out there.
You don’t need to have any expectations of Deledio, because he’s so competitive that he drives himself. He has the confidence and self-belief that allows him to do that, yet is level headed enough to take it all in his stride.
Tambling, on the other hand, while being just as competitive and driven, seems to have put pressure on himself because he hasn’t done as well as some of the other high draft picks. I don’t know anyone, not even me, who could expect anything more from any first year player, other than to just learn from the experience. Maybe if he let go of any expectations and just went out to learn and enjoy playing the game, instead of being frustrated that he hasn’t been able to control the way the season has turned out so far, things might happen a little easier for him. If he hasn’t already, hopefully he will soon realise that you can’t always control the way things turn out, so you might as well go with the flow and make the most of the situation you’re in.
Like everything else, I guess only time will really tell anything about our ability to develop players. At least it’s encouraging that there seems to be some method to our recruiting now. And if this season is anything to go by then there’s better to look forward to.
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i think we should use cogs as trade bait for a special player, everyone seems to think he is an awesome player so lets palm him off while he is of value , b4 his market value drops and everyone sees that his faults outweigh his talents. yes he has courage, yes he may win a hard ball and a marking contest...but he kicks crap, he has a poor action which he will never change, all he does is poke at th eball and float it without any penetration tyhus his kicks take extra seconds to reach its target thus a spoil and turnover occurs and usually a goal. on the other hand johnos does have pentetrating kicks but he accuracy is damn well disgracefull, he is an average footballer with a huge reputation, and that the problem with richmond, we keep on selecting players based on reputationsS
gaspar is an all australian so he gets selected................but he is a hack most of the time and continues to make wrong decisions.
johnson is captain , based on his premierships and reputation, but he cant kick accurately and makes too many clangers and is a pretty hopeless leader on the feild cos he cannot lead by example
tivendale, has a reputaion as a gr8 left foot kick, but we never see him use it to benefit the team
kellaway, has a reutaion as being very couragious , and he is, but he is slow in mind and movement
krak , and yes one of my favs as we know, has a reputaion top create magic, but rarely shows it
ray hall, has a reputation of being a clutz, but he still makes the team!!!
chaffey , hjas a reputation of being a honest hard worker, but lets face it, any one can be a tagger and he should go back to baseball
this is where the tigers have failed in th epassed and i hope terry is onto this. we kep on selecting players based on reputation and not ability.
this is why he have found some winners
besides delediop who is goingh to be the great afl player, and tambling who will be better next yr and is showing maturity bec when he has a down quarter he keeps trying and as v the blues and dockers his second halfs were very good for a 1st yr player.
but
the winners are foley and thursfield, here we have an dold fashioned hard nut who wins his own ball and uses it well, unlike cogs and johnson, and thurfield as a defender with pace and athleticism, and he looks very composed and makes the right decisions.
i really hoep we keep playing the kids and keep losing 4 the rest of the yr, as we need more quality kids in the team and need to get rid of the older and more experienced players who only have reputations . sugar is captain and safe, but the rest should all be let go.
its time the tigers got serious at the selection table, and really assess the players as they should be on their skills not reputations
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Interesting views X. I think you'll find that we keep selecting players because there’s no one else. You’re entitled to your opinion, the same as anyone else, but our list, and skill level, didn’t suddenly change from last week, the week before, or any other week before that. A bit like your criticism and assessment of some of our players really.
It’s no good criticising the fact that certain players are selected week after week. They’re on the list and until someone else either deserves or is ready to get an opportunity ahead of them then I guess they’ll keep getting selected. If you want to be critical of anything then be equally critical of our past recruiting and coaching as you are of the players themselves. After all, they didn’t recruit themselves or let themselves get away with that level of skill.
Even though I agree with some of your criticism of players, I also think that they each must have some redeeming qualities to be on an AFL list in the first place.
If I’ve got this right then, according to you, it seems that as long as a player has skill then that’s all he needs to be an AFL player. If that’s so then I dispute that.
You keep criticising Kane Johnson for his captaincy, even though the club took several weeks to find the best available captain. I think it was acknowledged at the time that we didn’t have someone with all the qualities you might look for in a captain. That shouldn’t diminish the choice made though. Maybe he’s not ideal in your eyes, but he was deemed the best available as far as the coaches and players were concerned. And even if he doesn’t have the sort of influence on a game you think he should have, he no doubt influences and impacts on his teammates in ways we don’t get to see, but which benefits them, otherwise he couldn’t have been selected.
Part of the reason I started this thread was because of some of the criticism levelled at Cogs, which is a bit different to two years ago. Knowing our history with developing players, I was even beginning to wonder myself whether he had stagnated or even gone backwards, but we have to remember that he’s coming back from possibly a career threatening injury, as well as learning a somewhat different role to previous seasons. Maybe there’s no room in your team for anyone with that level of commitment and dedication to make the sort of comeback he has, but I’d be happy with a team of players with that sort of discipline. And if it rubs off on some of the younger players then would that be a bad thing?
And that’s where it’s up to the footy club to make the sort of decisions that help improve the playing list and the players themselves, because they hopefully know better than us who can take us forward and who will hold us back. Like everyone else, I guess you don’t want to see us make the same mistakes as in the past, which is fair enough, but some of the players you continually criticise are helping the development of the younger players, even if you choose not to see that.
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Tambling, on the other hand, while being just as competitive and driven, seems to have put pressure on himself because he hasn’t done as well as some of the other high draft picks. I don’t know anyone, not even me, who could expect anything more from any first year player, other than to just learn from the experience. Maybe if he let go of any expectations and just went out to learn and enjoy playing the game, instead of being frustrated that he hasn’t been able to control the way the season has turned out so far, things might happen a little easier for him. If he hasn’t already, hopefully he will soon realise that you can’t always control the way things turn out, so you might as well go with the flow and make the most of the situation you’re in.
Tambling was surprised he went as No. 4 in the Draft - he thought he'd be No. 2. I guess with Lids and Griffen both playing so well have been a thorn in Tambling's side as well as the injuries he's had.
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It’s good that Richard sets high standards for himself. At the same time though, he probably puts himself under the sort of pressure that even a seasoned campaigner could struggle with. I may be wrong, but it doesn’t seem like anyone needs to criticise him, because he seems to save everyone else the trouble and is harder on himself than anyone else could ever be. Best if he can make the most of and just enjoy and learn from the experiences that generally come along for all players.
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Yeah, you’re right Moi, if I’m going to be critical of anyone I should be critical of myself for having such expectations.
I wouldn’t be too worried about me going around bagging Cogs though, if that’s what you’re thinking.
In another post I also went on and said something about the Club’s ability to develop players, which, after thinking about what I had originally posted, was more the point I was trying to get at, rather than wanting to criticise Cogs.
I don't think it's wrong for us to have expectations of our players. How high we set the bar is up to each individual. We watch them come through see something we like and hope that the can build on it and improve. To me at least that's how the expectation side of things works.
I also don't think it's wrong to have high expectation of our players. I
I suppose what I've been guilty of is having a different set of expectations for different players. I know I do it and I reckon other do as well. I have no doubt we cut certain players a bit more slack compared to others, while expecting more of others. Perhaps personally that's where I need to try and balance out things a bit better.
I guess it's human nature to a degree.
Joel Bowden over the years has been the best example; so many people have been critical of him over the years because we all see this naturally gifted player who seemed to be going through the motions that it frustrated the hell out of people. Personally I know that I expected more from Joel Bowden than say Ray Hall because Joel is the more natural footballer. In hindsight it probably wasn't fair.
Cogs is another that falls in the category for me at least where the expectations are rightly or wrongly much higher. As TS mentioned he achieved so much so quickly (B&F, standing out as young player in really bad side) and as a result we as Tiger supporters were talking him up as future captain, leader etc. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not; but I do know I have been critical of him even allowing for the injury he has had. I've been frustrated with him because he just doesn't appear to be doing some of the stuff he did back in 2003 when he won the B&F. Is that because of the injury and the managment of it or because he isn't being challenged enough to make further improvements to his game? Am I being too harsh? I honestly don't know - just trying to be honest :thumbsup
By my reading I think this is the sort of player development TS may be talking about (please correct me if I am wrong here).
Isn't the challenge of developing players about improving them all the time? We don't seem to have done this very well over the last few years - some players seem to be exactly where they were 2 years ago. My hope is that over the next 4-5 years we will be saying more often that not "gee player X has improved again this year"
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It's hard to be objective about players when you're emotional about your expectations of them. I have no doubt that some of the next generation will cop unfair criticism for that reason.
Hopefully they won't have to cop as much what Joel Bowden has.
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Well, i get annoyed at players being marked when they've come back from chronic injuries and are expected to get right back up to where they were before their injuries. Case in point Gaspar, now Mark. Give them time to heal, and in a few year time with Cogs and his form is not up to scratch, by all means, have a go and question where he's going. But to make generalisations about someone not living up to your expectations and following the form of other RFC players in the past, when you wouldn't have a clue what he might be carrying or trying to get over just really isn't on. He is still a kid - give him a break. And as for trading him, anyone who suggests that has got rocks in their head.
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Well, i get annoyed at players being marked when they've come back from chronic injuries and are expected to get right back up to where they were before their injuries. Case in point Gaspar, now Mark. Give them time to heal, and in a few year time with Cogs and his form is not up to scratch, by all means, have a go and question where he's going.
Fair call Moi
But to make generalisations about someone not living up to your expectations and following the form of other RFC players in the past, when you wouldn't have a clue what he might be carrying or trying to get over just really isn't on.
Fair point as well but we kept getting told everything is OK so the assumptions are based on that. If he isn't right then why is he playing?
I suppose the point I was trying to make and perhaps I didn't make it at all ( :help) was I don't just want the kid to come back as good as he was I want him to be better and see him improve because prior to injury it appeared he had a lot of improvement in him. I suppose I am wondering if that's possible because of where he is coming back from it was a terrible injury. Coupled with that our recent history show that we as a club develop players to a point and then that's it - I suppose I am just wondering if we as a club we can get better at it.
Maybe it was wrong of me to single out players - but I was just trying to put up an example from my perspective of this player development thing
Also, what's wrong with supporters having expectations of their teams players? There have been a number of players that have copped a fair amount of criticism eg. Tivendale, Johnson, Simmonds this season. Haven't they copped it because the are not delivering what we as supporters expect from them?
It's hard to be objective about players when you're emotional about your expectations of them. I have no doubt that some of the next generation will cop unfair criticism for that reason.
Hopefully they won't have to cop as much what Joel Bowden has.
Maybe that's part of the puzzle FF - the emotional side of footy. There doesn't appear to be anyway to escape it and from a personal view point I wouldn't want too. If I didn't want the emotional rollercoaster way I'd follow Freo :rollin
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It's hard to be objective about players when you're emotional about your expectations of them. I have no doubt that some of the next generation will cop unfair criticism for that reason.
If the next generation of players cop criticism then the criticism will aimed in the wrong direction. Players generally do as much as is expected of them and only get away with as much as they are allowed to get away with, if they want to stay on the list. Sure players have to take some of the responsibility, but our footy club hasn’t exactly been a trend setter in on-field excellence over the years, partly because we never demanded enough of players and instead allowed mediocre efforts.
If RFC don’t know that by now then it shouldn’t be the players who cop the criticism in the future, as some have to now.
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I'm not saying we shouldn't have an opinion of our own players or shouldn't be entitled to one, but the point I was trying to make is if you want an objective opinion on a player you are unlikely to get it from a passionate supporter of the team he plays for. The same for supporters of all teams, not just ours. That goes for over-inflating a player's ability as well as being overly critical.
I find it hard to know where any criticism should be aimed TS, but I doubt there are many players who only do as much as they can get away with. I also think that a lot of players who are criticised were never going to reach the lofty heights that their critics expected of them rather than just hoped for. I'm not a believer of 110%, if you get 100% out of yourself then you've done your best and there isn't any more. I don't criticise because I can't judge that.
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I suppose what I've been guilty of is having a different set of expectations for different players. I know I do it and I reckon other do as well. I have no doubt we cut certain players a bit more slack compared to others, while expecting more of others. Perhaps personally that's where I need to try and balance out things a bit better.
I guess it's human nature to a degree.
I agree WP. IMO we all at times have been guilty of having different expectations for different players but your right WP that's just human nature. The underdog who has had to work hard to achieve where he/she is at will get more slaps on the back than a naturally gifted person who reaches the exact same level or even higher. For example Hyde and even Pettifer have improved significantly this year compared to 2004 and we think that because in the past we had them as delistings candidates that they've done well and we are no longer critical of them. Compare that to Cogs who contributes more to the team than both of them yet cops criticism because we expect far more from a B&F winner in his first full year of AFL.
That's why we can't get too far ahead with Lids. He of course has heaps of talent and the potential to be anything but potential is a dirty word in footy. He is where he is at now and that's all at this stage.
Isn't the challenge of developing players about improving them all the time? We don't seem to have done this very well over the last few years - some players seem to be exactly where they were 2 years ago. My hope is that over the next 4-5 years we will be saying more often that not "gee player X has improved again this year"
Totally agree WP.
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Well, i get annoyed at players being marked when they've come back from chronic injuries and are expected to get right back up to where they were before their injuries. Case in point Gaspar, now Mark. Give them time to heal, and in a few year time with Cogs and his form is not up to scratch, by all means, have a go and question where he's going. But to make generalisations about someone not living up to your expectations and following the form of other RFC players in the past, when you wouldn't have a clue what he might be carrying or trying to get over just really isn't on. He is still a kid - give him a break. And as for trading him, anyone who suggests that has got rocks in their head.
You make some valid points Moi. When I started this thread, I was feeling a bit disheartened and didn’t really know what or how I should think about things. As this is a forum where we can discuss all matters Richmond, I just put my views up to see what others felt, because the reason we discuss things is so that we can see other points of view and gain a different understanding of things.
And mainly, I just needed a different perspective on the matter. Because, as Fishfinger said:
It's hard to be objective about players when you're emotional about your expectations of them.
At the time, I couldn’t tell if I was being objective or just plain unreasonable and, looking at it now, I guess I just let my emotions get in the way of reality.
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I'm not saying we shouldn't have an opinion of our own players or shouldn't be entitled to one, but the point I was trying to make is if you want an objective opinion on a player you are unlikely to get it from a passionate supporter of the team he plays for.
You don’t have to tell me FF, I think I’m now living proof of that. :P
I find it hard to know where any criticism should be aimed TS, but I doubt there are many players who only do as much as they can get away with. I also think that a lot of players who are criticised were never going to reach the lofty heights that their critics expected of them rather than just hoped for. I'm not a believer of 110%, if you get 100% out of yourself then you've done your best and there isn't any more. I don't criticise because I can't judge that.
That’s one of the hardest things I find as well. But the reason I say the criticism should in future be mostly directed at the Club is because they’re the ones who run the show. If players either aren’t up to it or just don’t perform to the required level then it’s their responsibility to take action on that. If they allow things to just drift along, and we don't see any improvement over time, as has happened in the past, for whatever reason, then we can no longer blame the players if the people in charge aren’t doing their job properly.
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Joel Bowden over the years has been the best example; so many people have been critical of him over the years because we all see this naturally gifted player who seemed to be going through the motions that it frustrated the hell out of people. Personally I know that I expected more from Joel Bowden than say Ray Hall because Joel is the more natural footballer. In hindsight it probably wasn't fair.
I suppose part of that comes back to what Joel, or any player, expects of himself. If no one around him can see better in him than he sees in himself, and he’s therefore not challenged to do what he’s capable of, then that’s where the frustration can set in. If players (and anyone really) can only do what they believe they are capable of then we wouldn’t need coaches and mentors (the ones who believe in you when no one else does, not even yourself) to help draw out any hidden ability.
Cogs is another that falls in the category for me at least where the expectations are rightly or wrongly much higher. As TS mentioned he achieved so much so quickly (B&F, standing out as young player in really bad side) and as a result we as Tiger supporters were talking him up as future captain, leader etc. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not; but I do know I have been critical of him even allowing for the injury he has had. I've been frustrated with him because he just doesn't appear to be doing some of the stuff he did back in 2003 when he won the B&F. Is that because of the injury and the managment of it or because he isn't being challenged enough to make further improvements to his game? Am I being too harsh? I honestly don't know - just trying to be honest :thumbsup
By my reading I think this is the sort of player development TS may be talking about (please correct me if I am wrong here).
You’re absolutely spot on WP, that’s what I do mean, and there’s nothing wrong with being honest. My main concern was that we could be going down the same track with Cogs as other players before him, who reach a certain level and then inexplicably stagnate or just go backwards. I guess Cogs wasn’t a good example for me to use right now. But that is what I mean about player development.
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I didn't mean to attack you TS - just when i see a player targeted when the whole team has been down, i find it hard to fathom how one individual, especially when they've had a run of bad luck with injury, can be highlighted when, to me, the failures have been a team effort.
I also know it comes after a loss to Carlton and where the negativity was coming from. While the players take it one week at a time - i reckon supporters should take the opposite view, and look at a season in perspective. If we did that and take an overall view of how a player's performed, might be a bit more objective than after a miserable loss where a scapegoat is there for the sinking the boot in.
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I also know it comes after a loss to Carlton and where the negativity was coming from.
That might be it Moi - a loss to Carlton has to be the pits whether they're on top of the ladder or on the bottom. Although I reckon it's worse when they're on the bottom :'( :'(
While the players take it one week at a time - i reckon supporters should take the opposite view, and look at a season in perspective. If we did that and take an overall view of how a player's performed, might be a bit more objective than after a miserable loss where a scapegoat is there for the sinking the boot in.
MAybe that's part of my problem I just don't know what to make of this season at the moment. It's all gone a bit "skewif" :help
I find it hard to know where any criticism should be aimed TS, but I doubt there are many players who only do as much as they can get away with. I also think that a lot of players who are criticised were never going to reach the lofty heights that their critics expected of them rather than just hoped for. I'm not a believer of 110%, if you get 100% out of yourself then you've done your best and there isn't any more. I don't criticise because I can't judge that.
I know I've been guilty of that way of thinking.
I sometimes think we get so excited when a player early on has a great game because we've been so terrible for so long that we ultimately expect them to be superstars based on one great game (eg Marty McGarth)
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I didn't mean to attack you TS - just when i see a player targeted when the whole team has been down, i find it hard to fathom how one individual, especially when they've had a run of bad luck with injury, can be highlighted when, to me, the failures have been a team effort.
I also know it comes after a loss to Carlton and where the negativity was coming from. While the players take it one week at a time - i reckon supporters should take the opposite view, and look at a season in perspective. If we did that and take an overall view of how a player's performed, might be a bit more objective than after a miserable loss where a scapegoat is there for the sinking the boot in.
No harm done Moi. Except that I feel like I’m at confession or something. :rollin So, forgive me Moi for I have sinned…
I know where our list is at and, except for the odd game here and there, haven’t been as upset over losses this season as I have in the past, because you can’t get blood out of stone. Apart from that, I’m the last person to blame one person when we lose and if I ever did go down that track, Cogs would be the last person I’d blame.
Some may have seen it that I was attacking Cogs, which was honestly the furthest thing from my mind. I saw the way he played in 2002 and 2003 and saw how he was playing this season. I put two and two together and came up with eleventy ten. That’s all. I hope that clears things up.
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What must be appreciated by all is that Cogs this year is like Browny was last year, hit with everything but the goal post and showing the effects of the attention that he has received.
Having come off the physical and mental torment of his injury problems and the shortened pre-season forced upon him would be feeling pretty well stuffed by now.
Next year he will be a little older, a lot more developed and conditioned, and in my humble opinion he will make you all eat your words.
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i think we should use cogs as trade bait for a special player, everyone seems to think he is an awesome player so lets palm him off while he is of value , b4 his market value drops and everyone sees that his faults outweigh his talents. yes he has courage, yes he may win a hard ball and a marking contest...but he kicks crap, he has a poor action which he will never change, all he does is poke at th eball and float it without any penetration tyhus his kicks take extra seconds to reach its target thus a spoil and turnover occurs and usually a goal. on the other hand johnos does have pentetrating kicks but he accuracy is damn well disgracefull, he is an average footballer with a huge reputation, and that the problem with richmond, we keep on selecting players based on reputationsS
Kicking isnt all that important for a inside player of Cogs type.
Remember, this bloke is in his first season back from OP:
2005 League Total Tackles Leaders (Minimum 5 Games Played)
Rank Player Team Games Tackles for Last Game Total
1 Brett Kirk Sydney 19 8 v Essendon, Round 19 102
2 Luke Ball St Kilda 19 2 v Geelong, Round 19 92
3 Mark Coughlan Richmond 19 2 v Fremantle, Round 19 84
4 Martin Mattner Adelaide 19 3 v Melbourne, Round 19 84
5 Jason Akermanis Brisbane 18 2 v Hawthorn, Round 19 84
Contested ball gets 2005 (average is 2nd number)
1 S Tuck RIC 77 5
2 S Mitchell HAW 72 5
3 M Coughlan RIC 66 4
4 L Ball STK 66 4
5 C Judd WCE 65 4
Cogs is not overrated whatsoever. He is rated outside Richmond so highly because he is class.
A pure elite footballer.
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Or you can look at it this way -
Cogs
- 3rd most contested ball in the AFL
- 3rd total tackles
- 4th total handballs
And he is average because he doesnt have a penitrating kick?
Get a clue.