One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on November 15, 2014, 03:37:15 PM
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Training day: Which weaknesses must your club address ahead of next year?
Jennifer Phelan
afl.com.au
November 15, 2014
RICHMOND
The obvious one is how they get past being bundled out of the finals at the first hurdle in consecutive years. Damien Hardwick has already indicated the coaches will consult other sporting organisations – nationally and abroad – to discover ways they can help the players move on from how the past two seasons have ended. On the field, a long and hot summer on the training track has been predicted and they'll enter the NAB Challenge with a different philosophy to this year, where most of their blue-chip players were involved in most games. The Tigers' clearance-to-score percentage was ranked 15th in the competition this year, although it has to be noted their No.1 ruckman Ivan Maric only played 14 games. And, they'll want to work their defensive side after a poor showing in that area in the final against Port Adelaide.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-11-15/your-clubs-big-weaknesses
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The weakness is actually getting into the finals in the first place, without having to kill ourselves both physically and mentally. Do that and the rest should take care of itself.
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to many to list, both list wise and the way we play.
we have been bully boys in the main and that is going to change because sides below us are actually addressing needs and weaknesses.
we scrape into finals for a reason and we get bundled out unceremoniously for reasons none of which have been addressed, and wont be because those in charge dont think theres too much wrong
and foolishly thinks things can be fixed from within. or put another way the list we have is capable of top 4 just with simple improvement from within.
cmon we all see the weaknesses. to name a few. the worst tackling side in the comp. the one way running , the pea hearts, the lack of polish the total lack of depth in key areas and the inordinate amount of battlers getting games. im sure others can name plenty more.
then theres the gaping holes in the list.
chronic shortage of decent mids both inside and out. the lack of both a kpf and a tall fwd. the lack of a back up ruckman, no sml fwd of note in fact not even a med fwd of note.
just one tall defender and the total lack of cover in the area. the lack of sml and med def who are well rounded and can provide both defence rebound and dont panic under pressure.
ffs lets not forget exactly where and what we are atm. that is a middling side who can go either way which has lots of weaknesses that have to be addressed..
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stupidity
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Coaching.
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Coaching.
that's what i meant.
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Negative fans.
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Negative fans.
Yep. The difference though they just have opinions. In years gone by those opinions were like a virus which infected the clubs decision making through coteries
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To start with: Lack of Depth; Need leg speed; tagger(hopefully Hunt is the answer) and quality small forward.
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A really calm and good kick out of defense.
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get fitter, run harder both ways and have several 50/50 players cement themselves as 150 game players ie the likes of batchelor, Dea, Griff, Astbury, Grimes
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Tim Clarke
Adding a descent assistant in the mix
Francis Jackson
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Consistency of performance. Turn up to play every quarter of every week like good sides do.
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Consistency of performance. Turn up to play every quarter of every week like good sides do.
Totally agree. I want to see a Richmond team that can lose but still play with hardness and effort.
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then theres the gaping holes in the list.
chronic shortage of decent mids both inside and out. the lack of both a kpf and a tall fwd. the lack of a back up ruckman, no sml fwd of note in fact not even a med fwd of note.
just one tall defender and the total lack of cover in the area. the lack of sml and med def who are well rounded and can provide both defence rebound and dont panic under pressure.
So we dont have Mids, inside or out, Kp forwards, back up ruckman, Small fowards, Med fowards, enough tall backs, capable med backs or small backs.
Looks like we need a list of 60 then to get all these extra players. Im not saying the the quality of all the players is top notch or that we shouldnt look at improving but really claw. There is a difference between how you see this list and how I do. Not every player will be top class player on any list, that's by shear definition. You don't rate anybody hardly and you don't get to the finals without more than half a dozen reasonable players. Going by the list above we only have about half a dozen. Its getting really old.
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MIDs: deledio. Cotchin. Martin. Vlastuin. Miles. Hunt. Sedwards. Ellis. Conca. Donuts. Foley. Donuts. Gordon. Arnot?
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KPF. riewoldt. Mcbean. Griffiths. Vickery. Elton.
Mid-fwd. Lennon. Knights. Lloyd
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Kpd. Rance. Astbury. Grimes. McIntosh. Chaplin.
Small def. Houli. Morris. Dea bachelor. Newman. Pettard
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then theres the gaping holes in the list.
chronic shortage of decent mids both inside and out. the lack of both a kpf and a tall fwd. the lack of a back up ruckman, no sml fwd of note in fact not even a med fwd of note.
just one tall defender and the total lack of cover in the area. the lack of sml and med def who are well rounded and can provide both defence rebound and dont panic under pressure.
So we dont have Mids, inside or out, Kp forwards, back up ruckman, Small fowards, Med fowards, enough tall backs, capable med backs or small backs.
Looks like we need a list of 60 then to get all these extra players. Im not saying the the quality of all the players is top notch or that we shouldnt look at improving but really claw. There is a difference between how you see this list and how I do. Not every player will be top class player on any list, that's by shear definition. You don't rate anybody hardly and you don't get to the finals without more than half a dozen reasonable players. Going by the list above we only have about half a dozen. Its getting really old.
did i say we dont have. no i said we have a chronic shortage in all of the areas i listed.
have a look at the tall fwds we have and we dont have many, we could easily upgrade our kpf stocks with only riewoldt a top level player.
you can say the exact same thing in just about all areas.
take rance out of the backline and what top level tall defender is there. the simple answer is none.
do the rucks as well, we all saw what happened when maric went down. hampson in 8 yrs of footy sure as hell doesnt look like the answer. what we gunna rely on mcbean and vickery and griffiths to take over give me a break. what other top level ruckman do we have.
do i need to go on
what top notch sml fwd do we have. or medium fwd for that matter. we dont have any at all.
i wont go on ive said it all already.
we dont have topnotch players or to define that, and im not after a graders here, all i ask for is good to very good consistent reliable players and we just dont have em apart from the odd one in each area.
we dont need a bigger list we need to manage the numbers allowed better than we do.
ive said this a lot and it seems i have to keep on saying it.
imo the correct list set up is.
talls
4 kpds
2 tall defenders
4 kpfs
2 tall fwds
4 rucks of which 2 should be ruck fwds. thats a total 0f 16 tall players out of 44. and if searching for and developing talls it could be a couple more.
mids
18 mids which comprises inside, outside, and those much sought after mids who do both well.
flankers
well theres 12 spots l;eft on the list to to accomodate our needs here. smlfwds, running defenders, shut down defender etc etc. if your mids can perform well on the flanks you dont even need the 12.
ive said it often in some areas we have adequate numbers but lack the quality needed, for example do we really need 3 200cm below par ruck/fwds. in most areas though we dont even have the numbers.
every yr its the same i argue the lack of depth or quality depth and every yr people argue the point. well what happened this yr when we copped just a few injuries, i tell ya what happened it went to total poo.
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You cannot have AA standard players in each of the 22 positions
with aa standard b team
Unfortunately
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You cannot have AA standard players in each of the 22 positions
with aa standard b team
Unfortunately
oh deary me . its not hard to fathom when i say
we dont have topnotch players or to define that, and im not after a graders here, all i ask for is good to very good consistent reliable players and we just dont have em apart from the odd one in each area.
you know sometimes if you took the time to read what is being said you would not make so many foolish mistakes. now the above is what i said im hardly chasing after 22 a graders just good to very good reliable consistent players to replace the player we do have.
or are the likes of chaplin houli petterd grimes vickery griffiths hampson etc etc etc etc okay.
just for you no one is chasing 22 a graders.
in many ways you reflect exactly our supporters. bnitch moan groan about many players but when push comes to shove defend en all to the hilt.
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Senior team: chronic shortage of senior mids.
Grimes. Astbury. Morris.
Vlastuin. Rance. Ellis.
Miles. Deledio. Hunt.
Lennon. Griffiths. Conca.
Riewoldt. McBean. ShaneEdwards.
Maric. Martin. Cotchin.
Foley
Knights
Donuts
Houli.
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You cannot have AA standard players in each of the 22 positions
with aa standard b team
Unfortunately
oh deary me . its not hard to fathom when i say
we dont have topnotch players or to define that, and im not after a graders here, all i ask for is good to very good consistent reliable players and we just dont have em apart from the odd one in each area.
you know sometimes if you took the time to read what is being said you would not make so many foolish mistakes. now the above is what i said im hardly chasing after 22 a graders just good to very good reliable consistent players to replace the player we do have.
or are the likes of chaplin houli petterd grimes vickery griffiths hampson etc etc etc etc okay.
just for you no one is chasing 22 a graders.
in many ways you reflect exactly our supporters. bnitch moan groan about many players but when push comes to shove defend en all to the hilt.
Footballers that are fast, kick, inside/outside ddeficiency don't grow on trees.
Take Geelong. They have built a dynasty in modern times yet have no obvious replacement for Christianson.
In reiwoldt and ranxe the club has quite young a gradebook ends. Ideally we'd have a dozen but that's not realistic.
Grimes vickey Griffith's are promising kpp.
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MIDs: deledio. Cotchin. Martin. Vlastuin. Miles. Hunt. Sedwards. Ellis. Conca. Donuts. Foley. Donuts. Gordon. Arnot?
vlastuin to date is a flanker as is donuts x2, and gordon. shedwards lol, arnot just got delisted, foleys best is behind him it seems and is just average , conca well he could go either way. and ellis is so outside its griggesqe.
of that lot i count 9 mids and even if you included them all as mids theres 4 short.
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KPF. riewoldt. Mcbean. Griffiths. Vickery. Elton.
Mid-fwd. Lennon. Knights. Lloyd
mcbean vickery and griffiths are all 200cm ruck fwds, there is a distinction to be made. elton is being groomed as a kpd and looks like he will either make it there or fail all together.so cross him off the list.
we are short of kpfs just 1 and have an abundance of 200cm ruck fwds of which all 3 to date are not real good either as a ruckman or as a fwd. 2 kpfs 194 - 197cm are needed and at the least 1 tall fwd 190-194 cm.
lennon knights lloyd are all med/sml fwds. you can add petterd, gordon mcdonough and maybe knights to the med/sml fwd list none are yet to show they are top notch or even anything better than a battler.
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What is wrong with riewoldt and a fleet of 200cm talks? Maric Vickery Griff bean
Why do you want them to be short?
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Negative fans.
Yep. The difference though they just have opinions. In years gone by those opinions were like a virus which infected the clubs decision making through coteries
that's a myth peddled by failed coaches and failed administrators to lay blame at the feet of others
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Kpd. Rance. Astbury. Grimes. McIntosh. Chaplin.
Small def. Houli. Morris. Dea bachelor. Newman. Pettard
rance, astbury and chaplin are kpds though chaplin hardly plays the role. elton is a junior kpd and he is struggling.. we need to find a top notch kpd to partner rance as the others look ordinary.
with elton the numbers are fine but the quality or standard of player is just not good enough.
grimes is a third tall and imo a poor one at that, mcintosh is also a third tall more a running defender. we have two third tall def on the list the number is adequate byt again wheres the quality.
sml/med defenders
we have newman should have been cut, houli sheesh people dont see it but hes a big part of our problems, vlastuin should be a top notch player but hes a fair way off it yet.dea, batchelor have both had an inordinate amount of time and produced nothing. lastly theres morris while we have no one else capable of playing on those pesky sml fwds that carve us up we have to keep him.
just one potential top notch player the rest are replaceable.
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It doesn't matter what vlastuin is currently it matters what he can be.
Gordon plays hff / wing is midfield given flooding and zones.
Mcdonuts will go thou the guts at stages
Shane edwards has excellent inside mid stats.
Foley best is ahead of him given his injury history, he isnt playing on a leg with no muscle.
Conca is serviceable
Ellis is outside but very good at what he does.
There seems to be speculation arnot will be on the list next season
A grade: martin deledio cotchin
Future: a grade: miles. Vlastuin
Could always use a dangerfield but it's not as bad as you cry
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Foley best is ahead of him given his injury history, he isnt playing on a leg with no muscle.
So you think we'll see a 30 year-old Foley, after years of injuries, deliver performances even better than his efforts of 2007-8?
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It doesn't matter what vlastuin is currently it matters what he can be.
Gordon plays hff / wing is midfield given flooding and zones.
Mcdonuts will go thou the guts at stages
Shane edwards has excellent inside mid stats.
Foley best is ahead of him given his injury history, he isnt playing on a leg with no muscle.
Conca is serviceable
Ellis is outside but very good at what he does.
There seems to be speculation arnot will be on the list next season
A grade: martin deledio cotchin
Future: a grade: miles. Vlastuin
Could always use a dangerfield but it's not as bad as you cry
Senior team: chronic shortage of senior mids.
Grimes. Astbury. Morris.
Vlastuin. Rance. Ellis.
Miles. Deledio. Hunt.
Lennon. Griffiths. Conca.
Riewoldt. McBean. ShaneEdwards.
Maric. Martin. Cotchin.
Foley
Knights
Donuts
Houli.
lots of flankers there but hey if you can force the square peg in the round hole it must be the right fit eh.
now do a seconds team the team is supposed to mirror what we want in the seniors. it supposed to full of juniors and development players. theres just two outright mids available for the seconds
best 22 you wont like it because its not based on what players may become, blind faith and a wing and a prayer doesnt cut it with me. its picked on PERFORMANCE.Mids are those with a #.
flankers who can rotate thru the middle but are primarily flankers are those with a **. once again there is a ditinction to be made when talking about mid numbers. when i say we need 18 mids i mean proven out and out mids. if some can play on the flanks even better.
FB/ MORRIS - ASTBURY - CHAPLIN.
HB/ HOULI - RANCE - VLASTUIN.**
R/ MARIC - COTCHIN# - MILES#
C/ ELLIS # - MARTIN# - GRIGG#
HF/ PETTERD - VICKERY - EDWARDS**.
FF/ GRIFFITHS - RIEWOLDT - DELEDIO#
INT. HUNT# - KNIGHTS ** - THOMAS# - FOLEY#. Theres 9 out and out mids in the team.
MAGOOS
FB/ GRIMES - XXXXX - DEA. WHERES THE DEVELOPING F/B. WHERES THE SHUT DOWN SML/MED DEF.
HB/ MCINTOSH- ELTON - BATCHELOR.
R/ HAMPSON - CONCA# - ARNOT#
C/ GORDON** - XXXXX - XXXXX.
HF/ LENNON** - XXXXX - MCDONOUGH**
FF/ LLOYD - XXXXX - MCBEAN.
INT/ XXXXX - XXXXX - XXXXX - XXXXX. INTERCHANGE HOULD HAVE AT LEAST 3 MIDS
NOW LOOK AT THOSE TEAMS AND TELL ME IN ALL HONESTY THAT WE DONT LACK IN THE AREAS I HAVE MENTIONED.
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Foley best is ahead of him given his injury history, he isnt playing on a leg with no muscle.
So you think we'll see a 30 year-old Foley, after years of injuries, deliver performances even better than his efforts of 2007-8?
Not as good as when he was rippin on state of origin games.
But better than last few years if his body canbhold upxould be excellent foil
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And yet common snse says a 29yo veteran who has had so much wear and tear and injury during the course of his career the only way is down.
id hope they plan for this rather than him regaining form he has not got back to for what 5 6 7yrs.
hes a depth player now and we should have a succession plan in place for when hes gone. but we dont.
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lots of flankers there but hey if you can force the square peg in the round hole it must be the right fit eh.
This is a bit of a different philosophical discussion. Given the trend of the game tactically. almost all non kpp are mids or at least should have the ability to go into the middle as a rotation. look at hawthorns best players and they go back/mid/fwd burgoye / hodge etc. is deledio a square peg?
now do a seconds team the team is supposed to mirror what we want in the seniors. it supposed to full of juniors and development players. theres just two outright mids available for the seconds
indeed
i am getting to this i am just eager to clarify your view on the senior team initially
one could argue
x3 Martin Deledio Cotchin
x1 Maric
x2 Miles Vlastuin
is 6/10 'A Grade' or there about, or potentially so
riewoldt and rance; the bookends are also fairly highly regarded in the wider afl community
- [morris]
- rance
miles - cotchin - vlastuin
- [hunt]
- reiwoldt
maric - deledio - martin
8/ the starting 18 in the higher of the talent brackets. given the age and upside this seems a strong core
McBean
Griffiths/Vickery
Grimes
Astbury
young kpp. no doubt the long term view should be to improve on every position. but they are young, high draft picks. they require time,
astbury - grimes - [morris]
- rance
miles - cotchin - vlastuin
- griffiths - [hunt]
mcbean - reiwoldt
maric - deledio - martin
for the remaining you fill in the positions with 'smalls' , mids / 'flankers' you rate highly, and probable Morris and hunt as specialist position players small back and tagger respectively
chronic shortage of decent mids both inside and out.
if you consider the options there are many for the remaining spots
for the senior side assuming the list is fully fit - your statement is not accurate imo
no doubt some of the b and c graders need to kick on you lol'ing at the like of shane edwards for having excellent inside midfield statistics inst helping the cause
KPF. riewoldt. Mcbean. Griffiths. Vickery. Elton.
Mid-fwd. Lennon. Knights. Lloyd
mcbean vickery and griffiths are all 200cm ruck fwds, there is a distinction to be made. elton is being groomed as a kpd and looks like he will either make it there or fail all together.so cross him off the list.
we are short of kpfs just 1 and have an abundance of 200cm ruck fwds of which all 3 to date are not real good either as a ruckman or as a fwd. 2 kpfs 194 - 197cm are needed and at the least 1 tall fwd 190-194 cm.
lennon knights lloyd are all med/sml fwds. you can add petterd, gordon mcdonough and maybe knights to the med/sml fwd list none are yet to show they are top notch or even anything better than a battler.
What is wrong with riewoldt and a fleet of 200cm talks? Maric Vickery Griff bean
Why do you want them to be short?
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you dont think riewoldt + a plethora of 200cm fwds + martin/lennon/deledio/cotchin types would be a difficult match up for a backline ?
as a defender you would rather them smaller i think...
in many ways you reflect exactly our supporters. bnitch moan groan about many players but when push comes to shove defend en all to the hilt.
The problem is you view is extremists
failing to acknowledge shane edwards has been decent. cracking it for out key position forwards for being too tall
And yet common snse says a 29yo veteran who has had so much wear and tear and injury during the course of his career the only way is down.
id hope they plan for this rather than him regaining form he has not got back to for what 5 6 7yrs.
hes a depth player now and we should have a succession plan in place for when hes gone. but we dont.
Foley is not your average case. His best was a life time ago. His body has been shot forever. Once again, he finally seems to be coming good. I would give him another season before putting a bullet in him. I am not saying hes going to be a star but he might be best 22 and he may be serviceable when miles and co. are getting attention. if you looked at the state of his leg as he playing you would want to give him more time i would think.
arnot and or helbig was ideal replacement / cover / upgrade i thought lol
unfortunate you cant have a graders everywhere, and cover them with a graders
and unfortunate the powers to be have a fetish for newman grigg thomas types
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best 22 you wont like it because its not based on what players may become, blind faith
its not all blind faith. practicality too
given the salary cap, drafting, inability to buy new players, only so many spots on the list etc. you have to have hope high draft picks ala vlastuin / lennon will come good, and play them for the long term
and a wing and a prayer doesnt cut it with me.
maybe so but the wing is midfield hence ellis is a midfielder even if an outside one
FB/ MORRIS - ASTBURY - CHAPLIN.
HB/ HOULI - RANCE - VLASTUIN.**
R/ MARIC - COTCHIN# - MILES#
C/ ELLIS # - MARTIN# - GRIGG#
HF/ PETTERD - VICKERY - EDWARDS**.
FF/ GRIFFITHS - RIEWOLDT - DELEDIO#
INT. HUNT# - KNIGHTS ** - THOMAS# - FOLEY#.
a secondary downside of houli, grigg, petterd, thomas as well as being low on ability is they are also inflexible
morris you can excuse, imo
then theres the gaping holes in the list.
chronic shortage of decent mids both inside and out. the lack of both a kpf and a tall fwd. the lack of a back up ruckman, no sml fwd of note in fact not even a med fwd of note.
just one tall defender and the total lack of cover in the area. the lack of sml and med def who are well rounded and can provide both defence rebound and dont panic under pressure.
So we dont have Mids, inside or out, Kp forwards, back up ruckman, Small fowards, Med fowards, enough tall backs, capable med backs or small backs.
Looks like we need a list of 60 then to get all these extra players. Im not saying the the quality of all the players is top notch or that we shouldnt look at improving but really claw. There is a difference between how you see this list and how I do. Not every player will be top class player on any list, that's by shear definition. You don't rate anybody hardly and you don't get to the finals without more than half a dozen reasonable players. Going by the list above we only have about half a dozen. Its getting really old.
did i say we dont have. no i said we have a chronic shortage in all of the areas i listed.
have a look at the tall fwds we have and we dont have many, we could easily upgrade our kpf stocks with only riewoldt a top level player.
how ?
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sorry judge i know you made an effort there. but i cant keep on doing this.you do my head in.
while there are some things i agree with, the fact is we are miles away , how to say it oh yeah philisophically we disagree.
i have to admit i cant work you out or your logic. there is no consistency and there is a deep bias against players who may be poor but actually out perform younger players.
you consistently rate unproven players and those kids that have performed to an acdeptable level are all potential a graders . yet mature players who consistenly give more than the kids on game day are lambasted probably rightly so.
me i think we havs a real lack of depth in most areas a lack of quality to go with it and i dont buy into this play the kids rhetoric.if they cant out perform players who are hacks and force em out, how can you then say hey this kid is going to be an a grader. most likely that kid will be delisted in good richmond style that is after 6 or 7 yrs.
sorry mate we do disagree and are miles apart and i just cant be bothered going around in circles with you. so we will just have to agree to disagree.
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We dont have to agree what a flanker and a midfielder that's OK.
My logic is simply I don't think things are as bad as what you allude to, specifically byhr quote of yours flullytiger quoted.
There is no bias - I agree often the list blockers out perform the kids. I simply think the kids should be getting a game based on upside as opposed to peoplewho will likely not improve.
I've only claimed miles and vlastuin are potential a grade .
Of course there is a lack of quality and depth . no thinks thongs are perfect. Just cause you have an ultra pessimistic view doesn't mean you are correct
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Good luck to whoever reads this page
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Good luck to whoever reads this page
I have given up. How can you argue when quality and quantity are mixed. Were you can't include players because they are likely to fail. Were a tall I foward is not because he can help out rucking. We're we are short on this number of a type of players on some self declared perfect list structure. We're we compare a structure of 44 players with a current list of 36 ( I think, not totally sure). Were players are pigeonholed in to types that are impossible to cross. Were negatively is the norm. Not going to bother any more.