One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on August 31, 2016, 04:09:03 AM
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List analysis: Cloke wrong Pie for Tigers
GARY BUCKENARA
Herald Sun
30 August 2016
THE TIGERS have been a disappointment this year and there’s no doubt internally they’d be disappointed with their performances.
If you go through the history of premiership teams and teams who have been successful, you find they all feature a good combination of A and B-grade players.
You need at least 12-14 of them.
They need to be balanced — you can’t have one A-grader and 14 B’s. There needs to be a mix.
Looking at Richmond, they’ve got five genuine A-grade players in Trent Cotchin, Brett Deledio, Dustin Martin, Jack Riewoldt and Alex Rance.
But the problem with their list is they don’t have any real B-grade players. They’ve got too many guys who are just your soldiers, good honest players who play their role.
Daniel Rioli definitely has the potential to turn into an A or B-grade player, he has shown signs of brilliance and Nick Vlastuin is another who could become a B-grade player. Brandon Ellis plays OK at times but his kicking lets him down.
Then I go through the rest of the list and I don’t see most of the young guys getting out of that C-grade zone — they get a game every week but they’re not going to be stars.
The balance of the list is off — there’s too big a gap between the best and the rest. There are too many similar types like Shaun Grigg, Shane Edwards, Bachar Houli, Kane Lambert, Sam Lloyd, Anthony Miles, Taylor Hunt, Reece Conca and Corey Ellis.
To me, rebound defenders and players in general with good kicking skills need to be brought into the club. I like Connor Menadue, he’s a light body but has good endurance although he does need to work on his kicking, it can let him down at times.
Jayden Short and Jason Castagna are likely types — they should definitely be elevated to the senior list.
I know some have flagged the possibility of the Tigers rebuilding and using the likes of Martin, Deledio and Riewoldt to do it by trading them to get early picks but there’s no way I’d entertain that.
The Tigers do need to invest in the draft but trading away their guns isn’t the way to do it.
We know they’re in for wantaway Sun Dion Prestia. He’s a borderline B to A-grade at the moment who should still improve because he’s young but I’ve got questions over whether he’s really the type of player they need.
Richmond’s pick No.6 is very valuable in this draft but the fact is they won’t get Prestia with their next pick — remember they haven’t got a second-round pick this year after trading it to Gold Coast as part of a complicated plan to satisfy Carlton for Chris Yarran.
If Prestia was in this year’s draft crop he’d probably be around that pick anyway so I’d say that’s a fair trade.
There are rumours about the Tigers looking at Travis Cloke and that coach Damien Hardwick has met with him, which would be a mistake in my opinion. He’d give them a presence, sure, but would it upset Riewoldt who plays his best footy closer to goal?
If the Tigers were to get Cloke, where does that leave their leading goalkicker? Cloke has to play close to goal but Riewoldt is nearly unbeatable when he’s one-on-one inside 50. So where does that leave it? I wouldn’t be going after him if I was at Richmond.
The player they should actually be targeting in a trade from Collingwood is Jarrod Witts. The 209cm ruckman isn’t getting opportunities at the Pies but is dominating at VFL level and he definitely addresses a need because Richmond’s ruck depth is a real problem.
Experienced rucks are hard to get so they’ve got to try and get one and Witts would be a very good fit.
WHAT THEY NEED
There’s no doubt the Tigers need key position players at both ends of the ground to give Riewoldt and Rance a bit more of a chop out. We’ve touched on the need for a ruckman because while Shaun Hampson improved this year, he’s biggest flaw still remains: He’s good with his tap work but aside from that he does nothing around the ground.
What also lets them down is their kicking skills — they haven’t got the elite kicking players coming off halfback, although Yarran will be one of those if he can get himself right. Jake Bachelor isn’t a bad kick but outside speed and endurance with elite ball use is really lacking, it needs to be addressed.
WHO’S UNDER THE PUMP?
It’s interesting what they do with Yarran, do they persevere with him? Obviously he has great skill and he’s what they need but is he committed? Can you have a player who isn’t committed on your list? Andrew Moore came in from Port Adelaide but didn’t have much of an impact and only played five senior games and Steve Morris is a goer but he’s had to undergo a knee reconstruction and you wonder whether that could spell the end for him. He’s just another one of those depth-type players.
Nathan Broad was bought in last year as a mature-age player but only played one senior game so he needs to do more and Daniel Butler has been injured a fair bit in his first two years at the club so where does he sit? He’s an elite athlete in speed and endurance but is a poor kick.
Maboir Chol made his debut in Round 23, he has unbelievable talent but I don’t think he’s really that dedicated, so it’ll be interesting to see what they do with him.
WHO SHOULD GO
Troy Chaplin and youngster Reece McKenzie have already retired and I think Ivan Maric’s time is up. Moore and Broad are line ball but Morris, and this is harsh because of his injury, is probably done as well.
CRYSTAL BALL
Damien Hardwick raised eyebrows when he suggested the Tigers could be back playing finals next year and I don’t disagree with him but there’s an asterisk.
The Tigers need to have a great run with injuries to play finals.
They’ll be in the 6-12 mark but that’s if their five A-graders have outstanding years and none miss with injury. It’s just the depth that gets them found out — it drops off very quickly at Richmond.
Their list will always be competitive because of the quality of the A-graders they’ve got and they have a few good players underneath them but the depth drops off, which is why they struggle.
I don’t think the list they’ve got right now is good enough to win a premiership.
They need to bring in more young talent and develop that rather than going down the path of getting 24-28 year olds, which they’ve done in the past.
Gary Buckenara helped build Hawthorn’s three-peat premiership list and now he runs a rule over club lists in an exclusive column for the Herald Sun. Buckenara was a major part of Hawthorn’s recruiting team between 2004-2015 and was responsible for bringing Lance Franklin, Jarryd Roughead and Jordan Lewis to the Hawks in 2004 when he was the Hawks’ sole full-time recruiter.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/richmond/gary-buckenara-analyses-richmonds-list-after-2016-season/news-story/ad932619a92a4831779af3e9da14080f
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Why don't we offer him the job of list manager?
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Most sane and reasoned thing I have read about our dilemma so far.
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Sensible article
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I actually think we only have one "A" grader and that is Rance.
Cotchin , Jack and Lids despite thier reputations - in reality play at a B grade level.
Dusty can look fantastic at times but he does butcher the ball and has accumulated plenty of cheap stats this year.
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Mat, they are sitting there getting flogged like stuffing Arab donkeys cleaning up the constant dogpiles left by the lesser lights, who, I gotta tell ya, are on a high fibre diet, regular isn't the word. These blokes would be stuff legends in other clubs, here, we are running them down...bloody hell.
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I actually think we only have one "A" grader and that is Rance.
Cotchin , Jack and Lids despite thier reputations - in reality play at a B grade level.
Dusty can look fantastic at times but he does butcher the ball and has accumulated plenty of cheap stats this year.
Agree with this somewhat. Jack and Martin if were more consistent would be A Grade locks. Cotchin is a B Grader. Lids I'd say is a A Grader when he plays.
A Grader wins you games which all of them do probably bar Cotch. But with Lids body nowdays and Jack and Martin incosistencies they are probably B Graders.
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I actually think we only have one "A" grader and that is Rance.
Cotchin , Jack and Lids despite thier reputations - in reality play at a B grade level.
Dusty can look fantastic at times but he does butcher the ball and has accumulated plenty of cheap stats this year.
FMD you go from one end of the spectrum to the other ey
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Superficially an ok piece. Look deeper and it is full of errors. He says we may delist Broad who is still contracted for next year for instance. Says Butler is a poor kick yet he is very skilled just has other issues (consistency). How does he know that Chol isn't dedicated? The guy has worked extremely hard and has put on 10kg. Bunches Corey Ellis in with others and it's far too early to tell what type of player he will be.
So it's easy to be critical but please be more accurate......
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Martin is 'A' ya nutters
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I actually think we only have one "A" grader and that is Rance.
Cotchin , Jack and Lids despite thier reputations - in reality play at a B grade level.
Dusty can look fantastic at times but he does butcher the ball and has accumulated plenty of cheap stats this year.
Agree with this somewhat. Jack and Martin if were more consistent would be A Grade locks. Cotchin is a B Grader. Lids I'd say is a A Grader when he plays.
A Grader wins you games which all of them do probably bar Cotch. But with Lids body nowdays and Jack and Martin incosistencies they are probably B Graders.
Cotchin's won more games for us then all of them over the years.......geez....you flogs just re-write history carry on like he's another Tambling....
I actually think we only have one "A" grader and that is Rance.
Cotchin , Jack and Lids despite thier reputations - in reality play at a B grade level.
Dusty can look fantastic at times but he does butcher the ball and has accumulated plenty of cheap stats this year.
FMD you go from one end of the spectrum to the other ey
Bi-polar?
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Emo-trendy to call cotchin rubbish all the time
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lol at the bloke who finished third in the coaches awards and averaged over 30 possessions for the year being regarded as inconsistent and not A grade
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Yeah Dusty is A Grade
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Laughable that would even need to be reiterated...
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I'd argue Jack is a deadset A grader who played a few poor games at the end of the year.
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I actually think we only have one "A" grader and that is Rance.
Cotchin , Jack and Lids despite thier reputations - in reality play at a B grade level.
Dusty can look fantastic at times but he does butcher the ball and has accumulated plenty of cheap stats this year.
Agree with this somewhat. Jack and Martin if were more consistent would be A Grade locks. Cotchin is a B Grader. Lids I'd say is a A Grader when he plays.
A Grader wins you games which all of them do probably bar Cotch. But with Lids body nowdays and Jack and Martin incosistencies they are probably B Graders.
Cotchin's won more games for us then all of them over the years.......geez....you flogs just re-write history carry on like he's another Tambling....
I actually think we only have one "A" grader and that is Rance.
Cotchin , Jack and Lids despite thier reputations - in reality play at a B grade level.
Dusty can look fantastic at times but he does butcher the ball and has accumulated plenty of cheap stats this year.
FMD you go from one end of the spectrum to the other ey
Bi-polar?
Was thinking more the autism one
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We could do a lot worse than Buckenara as our list manager
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We could do a lot worse than Buckenara as our list manager
Jackson....? :lol
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Jack kicked 48 goals this year , his worse return since 2009 . Missing easy shots is creeping into his game . Did not kick a bag of 5 in 2016 .
Dusty has usually been good for 25-30 goals the last 5 seasons - this year he has kicked 9 . Sure his stats look good this year and he will poll well in the brownlow - but I would rather see him hurt the opposition on the scoreboard than accumulate cheap meaningless possessions on the backline.
Lets face it , we have been waiting for Cotchin to return to the dynamic level he was playing at in 2012 for years now .We get a glimpse of it every now and again - like against Collingwood and Sydney in 2015 ....but overall he's become so vanilla .
Lids body has become so fragile these days lately he's becoming irrelevant.
The public perception is that Richmond has 5 "A" graders but I'm not sure if that is the reality. If it was true surely we would of won more than 8 games this year.
I think in Reality its something like this .....
Rance A+ ( Elite )
Martin A
Jack B+
Lids B
Cotch B
I do think under another coach things could be a lot different and definitely for the better.
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Define A Grade. For mine, A Grade is All Australian or at worst in top 40 list. As in best team in comp. Or best half dozen in position.
Who has made the top 40 players this year in AFL?
Rance and Dusty.
Have a lie down u idiots. Cotchin is not an A Grader. If you have a weaker opinion on what A Grade means, by all means classify him as one. Who cares.
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So only the top 5% ("at worst") in the AFL are A-graders? Where do the rest fit? Does your scale go down to z?
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Buckenara is saying nothing that has not been said for yrs on end.
As for rating the list.
A grade = Elite.
B grade = Very good.
C grade = good.
D grade = Footsoldier.
E grade - Below ave
F grade = Development.
The vast majority of players falls into the last three categories.
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Define A Grade. For mine, A Grade is All Australian or at worst in top 40 list. As in best team in comp. Or best half dozen in position.
Who has made the top 40 players this year in AFL?
Rance and Dusty.
Have a lie down u idiots. Cotchin is not an A Grader. If you have a weaker opinion on what A Grade means, by all means classify him as one. Who cares.
So we're just basing it on this season?
Jasper Pittard Port's only A-Grader is he?
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We could do a lot worse than Buckenara as our list manager
Jackson....? :lol
Well, that's probably pretty self evident.
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Cotchin and Jack and Lids are also top players if they could get some help they would be superstars. If they were playing for the Dorks, Jack would be looking at another Coleman rather than being used as a utility donkey. Cotchin wouldn't have to be working like a cheap in and under battering ram and so on. They wouldn't be receiving hospital hand passes from 3 feet away by someone with no pressure on them when they are surrounded by three opposition players.
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Cotchin and Jack and Lids are also top players if they could get some help they would be superstars. If they were playing for the Dorks, Jack would be looking at another Coleman rather than being used as a utility donkey. Cotchin wouldn't have to be working like a cheap in and under battering ram and so on. They wouldn't be receiving hospital hand passes from 3 feet away by someone with no pressure on them when they are surrounded by three opposition players.
:lol Oh so accurate...
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Martin is without a doubt an A grader. He always goes for kicks with a fairly high degree of difficulty and usually has no one running and spreading for him so usually has to either take someone on or release the ball under great pressure which effects his Disposal Efficiency. If the Tigers actually had decent run and spread Martin's kicking efficiency would go through the roof.
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Buckenara is a good footy judge. Our best recruiting path would be to get him if he is interested. Notably he didn't mention Griff or TV. What would he do if he's not going after Cloke in the kpp dept for next year? TV is probably gone, use pick 6 on a half forward?
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Define A Grade. For mine, A Grade is All Australian or at worst in top 40 list. As in best team in comp. Or best half dozen in position.
Who has made the top 40 players this year in AFL?
Rance and Dusty.
Have a lie down u idiots. Cotchin is not an A Grader. If you have a weaker opinion on what A Grade means, by all means classify him as one. Who cares.
So we're just basing it on this season?
Jasper Pittard Port's only A-Grader is he?
What seasons are we basing this on if not this season? lol
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So only the top 5% ("at worst") in the AFL are A-graders? Where do the rest fit? Does your scale go down to z?
A Grade are elite players so whether its 5% or 10% that would be about right yeah.
A Grade 0-5%
B Grade 5-25%
C Grade 25-50%
D Grade 50-75%
The rest would be kids or Richmond depth players.
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Laughable that would even need to be reiterated...
Dusty is A grade
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Harharhar
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If we want to make inroads and improve quicker, we need to find a way of getting Prestia AND keeping pick 6. To me it doesnt seem that hard, we have a number of players who are expendable and would net us something - players like lennon and Ellis would get us a op 20 pick. Vickery compensation looks like it will be a 2nd rounder - apparently there are 6-7 players in this years draft that could all make a claim for being the number 1 pick, so lets keep this pick.
Also next years draft is ladden with KPP's, do not trade away next years first rounder
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yep all fits into a neat little curve made up of 5% chunks.
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If we want to make inroads and improve quicker, we need to find a way of getting Prestia AND keeping pick 6. To me it doesnt seem that hard, we have a number of players who are expendable and would net us something - players like lennon and Ellis would get us a op 20 pick. Vickery compensation looks like it will be a 2nd rounder - apparently there are 6-7 players in this years draft that could all make a claim for being the number 1 pick, so lets keep this pick.
Also next years draft is ladden with KPP's, do not trade away next years first rounder
Especially when they say the want players not picks. It's unreal pick 6 is even speculated
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If we want to make inroads and improve quicker, we need to find a way of getting Prestia AND keeping pick 6. To me it doesnt seem that hard, we have a number of players who are expendable and would net us something - players like lennon and Ellis would get us a op 20 pick. Vickery compensation looks like it will be a 2nd rounder - apparently there are 6-7 players in this years draft that could all make a claim for being the number 1 pick, so lets keep this pick.
Also next years draft is ladden with KPP's, do not trade away next years first rounder
Agreed, I think Vickery's compo and Lennon would just about do it.
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if they want Lennon, and if lennon even wants to go there.