One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on March 08, 2007, 02:50:12 AM
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AFL toys with plan to bring back reserves football
Stephen Rielly
The Age
March 8, 2007
THE AFL is exploring the idea of creating a national reserves competition, a league that would replace the various state-based competitions as the second tier of the game and involve a return to the days of "firsts" and "seconds".
The option, one of several being examined as part of a review of the relationship between the AFL and the competitions closest to it, would be expected to increase list sizes to a minimum of 55 players.
It would sever the alignments that have existed, in Victoria for example, between nine of the state's 10 AFL clubs and the VFL since the demise of reserves football a decade ago.
Fourteen of the 16 AFL clubs have been briefed on the national reserves competition proposal and several other alternatives, including the idea of an eastern seaboard reserves competition and a stand-alone Victorian reserves competition that would effectively relegate the Victorian Football League to third-tier status.
The AFL Victoria board was briefed on Tuesday night, with other state bodies, principally the SANFL and WAFL, to whom Adelaide, Port Adelaide, Fremantle and West Coast farm out players not selected for a senior game, to be consulted next.
The impact an AFL reserves competition would have on the profile and quality of the WAFL, SANFL and VFL is expected to produce serious opposition to the idea from all three leagues.
While the consultative process is far from complete — the review is expected to continue through much of this year and is unlikely to have any changes introduced before the 2009 season — it is understood that several AFL clubs have indicated enthusiasm for the creation of a national reserves competition.
But more of the Victorian clubs have expressed interest in a 10-team Victorian league.
Either way, all have endorsed the idea of doing away with the farm system and of reclaiming or, in the cases of the South Australian and West Australian sides, gaining total control over the welfare and development of players from draft day onwards.
David Matthews, the AFL's general manager of national and international development, said the reintroduction of reserves football was being considered as the code looked to how it might satisfy its need to grow and develop.
"It's a second-tier review we're conducting because we're keen to review the structures of football below the AFL competition and how appropriate they are for the development of the game," Matthews said.
"It's a national project, not one concerned with state boundaries, that we hope will serve the game across the country for the next 10 or 20 years at least."
One of the appeals for the AFL of a reserves competition, either national or state based, is the access as many as 200 or more players could get to the elite AFL system, a figure far beyond any other elite sport in this country.
"We promote pretty heavily at the moment that the AFL offers 640 jobs for elite athletes at an average salary of $200,000. So in theory, that would allow us to offer even more opportunities than we do against other sports. That said, the AFL competition still has to be elite," Matthews said.
But the likelihood of change is being sold to the clubs on the grounds that the widening gap — financial and otherwise — between the state leagues and the AFL is starting to fail them both.
"There's a bottom-up perspective, which is how clear and how good is the pathway for a talented young player coming up through the system?" Matthews said. "There is also a top-down perspective, which is from the AFL competition's position, that asks how well are we meeting the needs of AFL clubs who want to develop their listed players and how and in what environment are we going to meet their needs?
"We then need to ask: can we make structural improvements across Australia or do we need to look at different structures to service our future needs?"
1: Present model remains or does so with minor changes.
2: A 10-team Victorian-based AFL reserves competition.
3: A 12-team eastern seaboard AFL reserves competition including Brisbane and Sydney.
4: A 16-team national AFL reserves competition.
http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/realfooty/articles/2007/03/07/1173166799460.html
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I would luv to see a pre-game match happening again, but that would probably send the VFL teams to the scrap heap.
Not sure about it to be honest.
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who cares about teh vfl/vfa teams
bring back the ressies!!!!!!!
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Do what the fans want!! Bring back the ressies NOW!!
:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup
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I support the 10 team reserves concept. 18 game season + final 5 over 4 weeks.
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Nationwide reserves.
The reserves play whover the seniors do - before the actual game.
How good would it be to go to Punt rd oval, watch a game then walk to the G.
Remember those days?
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A mistake to get rid of the reserves in the first place. I think the AFL was promoted as "the people's game" at the time.
If the reserves return, I hope the clubs which have aided an AFL club are looked after.
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I can uderstand why everyone would think let's bring back the ressies but I have just one question...
Just who's going to pay for it?
I mean we have AFL clubs no who rack up loss after loss even allowing for their AFL handouts - are how they supposed to pay for it?
The option, one of several being examined as part of a review of the relationship between the AFL and the competitions closest to it, would be expected to increase list sizes to a minimum of 55 players.
I read that to mean the rookie list would be out. A list of 55 players from the current 44 (38 + rookies) is an increase of 11 @ $80k-$100k a year = Increase player payments of at least $1 million
Again who's gonna pay for it
I know....
the supporters will pay for it with higher membership prices and admission prices
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But can the Vic clubs afford to pay for the extended list that would be necessary to field two teams? I'm not sure.They're talking about 55 players. It would make some people happy because there'd be more of those "not quite good enough" players on the list, and this would allow people to cry out "get rid of that dud" even more often than they can now!!!!!
I suppose Geelong already field 2 teams, with their top-up players, but they have a unique situation down there because there are no nearby competing AFL or VFL clubs, the closest being Werribee. This gives them greater drawing power for the top-ups.
The relationship with the VFL clubs works reasonably well. I'd like to go back to the "old days", but I'm not sure it is practical.
Edit - you posted while I was writing mine, WP.
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I can uderstand why everyone would think let's bring back the ressies but I have just one question...
Just who's going to pay for it?
I mean we have AFL clubs no who rack up loss after loss even allowing for their AFL handouts - are how they supposed to pay for it?
The option, one of several being examined as part of a review of the relationship between the AFL and the competitions closest to it, would be expected to increase list sizes to a minimum of 55 players.
I read that to mean the rookie list would be out. A list of 55 players from the current 44 (38 + rookies) is an increase of 11 @ $80k-$100k a year = Increase player payments of at least $1 million
Again who's gonna pay for it
I know....
the supporters will pay for it with higher membership prices and admission prices
tv rights
how much money do the afl make and how much have they made with this new deal
they have the money but they will surely put membership prices up sau $50 which will be worth it if it gurarantees we have a reserves team
the afl have enough money to increase afl lists and squads , dont worry about that
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YES YES YES YES YES YES YES ... BRING BACK THE RESERVES !!!
there should be all victorian teams ... 10
and maybe all the interstate teams ... 6
would benefit all clubs if they had a reserves team !
there would be more opportunities for young players to be drafted !
I REALLY HOPE THE AFL BRING BACK THE RESERVES !
play the match before the match ... if its a 2:10pm match play at 10:00 so there plenty of time to prepare !
same length matches too !
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Reserves competition unlikely: AFL
afl.com.au
Matt Burgan
AFL game development general manager Dave Matthews has hosed down speculation that a reserves competition will be introduced into the AFL, saying that a review of second-tier football in Australia will be conducted instead.
Matthews, speaking after The Age flagged the possible return of the 'twos', said the AFL was not "running around canvassing reserves options" to AFL clubs, state leagues or state league clubs.
"Inevitably, alternatives do get debated, but the AFL hasn't at any stage, for instance, said there is going to be any national return to the reserves or that we're seeking to replace state league football," Matthews told afl.com.au.
"Some of those assertions are just false."
"We really need to reassure stakeholders, based on some of the media speculation today (Thursday), that one of the real potential outcomes of this is [a continuation of the] status quo or some minor modifications to current structures," Matthews said.
"They're the more likely outcomes, rather than some of the other more extreme alternatives that are being floated.
Matthews said the AFL had no "preferred position" and hadn't specified any timing on when the findings would be determined.
Full article at: http://www.afl.com.au/Season2007/News/NewsArticle/tabid/208/Default.aspx?newsId=38869
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afl are b a s t a r d s!
A = all
F = f%^&ing
L = losers
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would benefit all clubs if they had a reserves team !
All Clubs - How?
As I said it's all about the cost involved - some Clubs could not afford it
tv rights
how much money do the afl make and how much have they made with this new deal
they have the money but they will surely put membership prices up sau $50 which will be worth it if it gurarantees we have a reserves team
the afl have enough money to increase afl lists and squads , dont worry about that
X the people from the Big House at the Docklands released a paper just before Xmas that listed details of how all the TV money was going to be distributed - I doubt very much they'd cover all the costs involved in this.
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It's an "out-there" idea but has the AFL ever considered the idea of AFL clubs loaning their players to their VFL affiliate or any club in secondary competition (VFL,SANFl, WAFL) where say the VFL club pays the players wage while he's with them (make it for a season and on a rookie's salary) yet the player is still technically part of the AFL club's list so he doesn't need to be redrafted. A bit like what they have in soccer where one club can loan a player to another club so he gets game time. You might then be able to extend AFL club lists without incurring the considerable cost if you just added on another 11 players to a AFL club's list.
As for reintroducing the ressies, I'd be just as happy if Coburg were allowed to play curtain raisers at Punt Rd Oval or the MCG. I miss the actual early game. There's no point getting to the footy early anymore without them.
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would benefit all clubs if they had a reserves team !
All Clubs - How?
As I said it's all about the cost involved - some Clubs could not afford it
tv rights
how much money do the afl make and how much have they made with this new deal
they have the money but they will surely put membership prices up sau $50 which will be worth it if it gurarantees we have a reserves team
the afl have enough money to increase afl lists and squads , dont worry about that
X the people from the Big House at the Docklands released a paper just before Xmas that listed details of how all the TV money was going to be distributed - I doubt very much they'd cover all the costs involved in this.
thanx wp.
obv the afl does not know how to manage money and maximise profits like scumwood.
scumwood last yr turned over nearly 40 million dollars and only made nearly 2 mil profit! where is all their money going.
if i ran a company that turned over 40million, i would be totally pis sed if all i had to show was 2 mil for it
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obv the afl does not know how to manage money and maximise profits like scumwood.
scumwood last yr turned over nearly 40 million dollars and only made nearly 2 mil profit! where is all their money going.
if i ran a company that turned over 40million, i would be totally pis sed if all i had to show was 2 mil for it
Buying assets like pubs around Melbourne and spending money on junkets to Arizona where the altitude is apparently no higher than Mt Hotham lol.
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obv the afl does not know how to manage money and maximise profits like scumwood.
scumwood last yr turned over nearly 40 million dollars and only made nearly 2 mil profit! where is all their money going.
if i ran a company that turned over 40million, i would be totally pis sed if all i had to show was 2 mil for it
Buying assets like pubs around Melbourne and spending money on junkets to Arizona where the altitude is apparently no higher than Mt Hotham lol.
:ROTFL :ROTFL :ROTFL :ROTFL :jump :invasion :jump :ROTFL
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I just wanna know what has changed since they scrapped the reserves till now.
Wasn't it better for the competition to scrap them?
I want them back, but I don't understand the U-turn.
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I just wanna know what has changed since they scrapped the reserves till now.
Wasn't it better for the competition to scrap them?
I want them back, but I don't understand the U-turn.
Agree Moi it doesn't make any sense. The ressies were scrapped originally because the clubs couldn't afford the large lists and the other overheads of maintaining a second team. Nothing has changed on that front.
Probably another Adrian Anderson urge to change something for the sake of change :scream.
Any change would also effect the Calder Cannons - Coburg - Richmond alignment.
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Any chance this has something to do with the increasing interest in soccer?
Trying to bring footy back to how it used to be for the fans.
Okay, it's a bit of a stretch, but I just can't imagine why the AFL is thinking like this.
Great for us, but financially ruining I would have thought.
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The other thing to consider is ground allocation. Where would they play?
With 5 "tenant" clubs already at the MCG it wouldn't be there because the surface wouldn't handle it. We'd be ok having Punt Rd Oval and a short walk but other clubs would be miles away, so it wouldn't be curtain-raiser matches which is probably the big allure of having reserves.
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Spot on Fish, they wouldn't be playing games on the Telstra Dome surface as well for the same reasons.
I think it's pretty nasty of the AFL to build people's hopes up like this :lol when for that reason alone it can't be done.
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The MCG games would be easy to handle as all ressie games would be played at Punt Rd prior to the seniors (plus perhaps more $$$ to the RFC in the process :pray ). It's games at the Dome that are the problem as you say Moi. They could have played on the concourse but that's banned now lol. The nearest ground to the Dome would be Arden St :-\.
In the old U19s they use to reverse the fixtures. If Richmond were playing Essendon at the 'G then the U19's would play at Windy Hill.
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Venues would be a massive problem - smart thinking :clapping
I just wanna know what has changed since they scrapped the reserves till now.
Wasn't it better for the competition to scrap them?
I want them back, but I don't understand the U-turn.
Exactly
As I said yesterday alot of the clubs could not afford it.
And as for Rohan Connolly's opinion piece this morning - what can you say ... I would say he has no idea :chuck :chuck ;D Perhaps Rohan can cover all the costs
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F*** you AFL ... bring back AFL Reserves !
we should have the national competition !
Seniors and Reserves ...
am i pushing it buy saying bring the under 18's ??? each club has an Under 18's team ...
but that would end the TAC Cup !!!
i don't care ... it would be good to have the 1st,2nd's and 3rd's !
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League may resurrect reserves
Stephen Rielly | May 24, 2007 | The Age
AFL reserves football seems certain to return to Victoria in 2009, and with it, many of the suburban grounds that continue to serve as spiritual homes for the 10 Victorian-based AFL clubs.
Changes that are expected to be introduced by the AFL next year will make it easier and more appealing for the AFL clubs in the state to field their own reserves sides, as Geelong alone currently does, in an expanded VFL competition from 2009.
All clubs have the right to field a stand-alone reserves team but the problems of financing a second side and of sourcing players have put all but one off the idea.
The AFL, as part of a continuing review of the relationship between the state-based competitions and the elite national competition, is understood to have concluded that the current alignment system in Victoria, where surplus AFL-listed players are farmed out to a VFL affiliate, is failing both parties and putting Victorian AFL clubs at a disadvantage to their rivals in South Australia and Western Australia.
While the review has explored the possibility of establishing a national reserves competition or a stand-alone Victorian competition separate to the VFL, the consequences for the VFL clubs should they be relegated to third-tier status has produced the idea of a remodelled state competition that will combine AFL reserves sides and those VFL sides who can compete on their own.
The size of AFL lists is unlikely to increase, because the teams in other states would also need increases, but thought is being given to a return to the system which preceded the AFL/VFL alignments, of having top-up players and access to the TAC Cup teams.
While the idea of the reserves sides playing curtain-raisers at Telstra Dome or the MCG has been dismissed, an expanded VFL competition will bring regular football back to the likes of Whitten Oval, Windy Hill, Princes Park, Junction Oval and others.
The AFL's development manager David Matthews said yesterday that, with the second-tier review under way, no final decisions had been reached.
"However, it's clear at this point that the arrangements in South Australia and Western Australia don't present the tensions or issues that are apparent at times in the VFL," Matthews said.
"Tensions between VFL clubs and AFL clubs exist because the VFL clubs exist to win and the AFL clubs essentially want to develop their players. The question is, can those competing interests, which have been managed in the past, continue to be managed or is change required?"
The AFL/VFL alignments have become increasingly problematic, to the point that one club official said yesterday: "AFL clubs are spending more and more money and time on development but where it counts most, on match day, we lose control of that. Increasingly, we don't help them and they don't help us."
Said Matthews: "We're very conscious of the fact that there is a lot of history and identity and a lot of time and effort involved with the VFL clubs and an important consideration in all of this is how they are preserved and can flourish. But the AFL clubs are in a position at the moment to determine their own destiny. It's whether we consider changing the conditions under which they could do so."
It is not only the AFL clubs that are increasingly unhappy. It is also apparent that the success of the VFL teams has become largely dependent upon the injury lists of their AFL partners.
When alignments were first created it was envisaged that AFL lists would come down to 35. But list sizes haven't decreased and there have been examples of VFL sides fielding shadow AFL combinations and few of their own players.
http://realfooty.com.au/news/news/league-may-resurrect-reserves/2007/05/23/1179601488742.html
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This will be a fantastic revenue opportunity for Richmond to play reserves games at Punt Road prior to senior AFL games on the MCG.
The punt Road redevelopment will be completed in 2009, what a fantastic opportunity to show off our new facilities.
Go Tigers!
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The size of AFL lists is unlikely to increase, because the teams in other states would also need increases, but thought is being given to a return to the system which preceded the AFL/VFL alignments, of having top-up players and access to the TAC Cup teams.
But who pays for this? The reason this was abolished in the first place was because of the added cost.
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The AFL/VFL alignments have become increasingly problematic, to the point that one club official said yesterday: "AFL clubs are spending more and more money and time on development but where it counts most, on match day, we lose control of that. Increasingly, we don't help them and they don't help us."
Would love to know which Club official said that ::)
Would think you shouldn't tar all the AFL/VFL alignments with the same brush :banghead
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Sounds like either a Pie or Blue official WP. Going by today's article in the Herald-Sun only us, Melbourne and Hawthorn are completely happy with their VFL affiliate.
Pies, Blues may force VFL to expand
25 May 2007 Herald-Sun
Jon Anderson
A 16-TEAM VFL competition with more top-up players from the TAC Cup under-18 competition is considered likely next season.
Carlton and Collingwood are expected to field their own teams, breaking existing alliances (which began in 2000) with the Northern Bullants and Williamstown.
Williamstown is financially strong enough to stand alone, but the Northern Bullants would struggle, something AFL Victoria chief executive officer Peter Schwab is desperate to avoid.
"AFL clubs want to control the development of their players and are frustrated when those players are not selected in a VFL team or played out of position," said Schwab, who coached Hawthorn from 2000-2004 with the Hawks aligned with Box Hill.
"I fully understand those concerns, but I don't think the answer is to take away the whole VFL competition to satisfy those concerns.
"We want to save all VFL clubs. I understand there will be AFL clubs who want to put their own teams in, so the number of teams would increase (from 13 to 16).
"Sixteen is a good number because it would fit into the AFL fixture, and history shows byes don't work."
The determination of Collingwood and Carlton to go it alone will bring the proposed restructure forward from 2008 to next year. A bone of contention will be the number of under-18 top-up players allowed.
That number is restricted to two a team, but will come under pressure to be increased to as many as six so AFL clubs get the chance to view teenagers playing against men.
Paddy Ryder, Lance Franklin and Bryce Gibbs are recent examples of under-18 players to benefit from a year in the WAFL or SANFL before being eligible for the national draft.
The trio were allowed to develop in positions, something that is not always the case with VFL-aligned teams.
Take Carlton's Adam Hartlett as an example, taken with pick No. 25 in the 2004 national draft. Hartlett, making his senior debut tomorrow at Telstra Dome, is seen as a budding centre half-forward.
But when the game gets tight and the Northern Bullants are trying to win, who is the better centre half-forward - Hartlett or Digby Morrell?
With Carlton willing and able to become a sole entity, where does it leave the Northern Bullants? While there is no cause to doubt Schwab's desire to retain all existing VFL clubs, some will come under severe financial pressure.
They include the Bullants, Casey Scorpions, Werribee and Coburg Tigers. Richmond is thought to be happy with the Coburg arrangement, but the Western Bulldogs improved situation may see them go solo.
Casey Scorpions and St Kilda have not jelled yet to the degree of Melbourne and Sandringham or Hawthorn and the Box Hill Hawks, and the Scorpions as a fledgling outfit would struggle financially.
But given their geographical demographic and the AFL/VFL's desire to promote the code in that area, it is highly unlikely they will be absent next season.
Geelong will clearly remain, with its model being looked upon as the preferred option by some other AFL clubs.
In 2002 the Cats won the VFL premiership with a side containing Gary Ablett, Jimmy Bartel, Paul Chapman, David and Steve Johnson, James Kelly and Max Rooke.
The Kangaroos have some players at North Ballarat and others with Tasmania. In an ideal world where money was not a problem, they would go it alone.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21790105%255E19895,00.html
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Looks like the AFL ressies idea is a no goer according to Inside Football/SEN. Most likely next year there'll be a expanded VFL with 4 AFL clubs going alone with their own VFL team. They are just waiting for the hand down of the report into the VFL.
So it looks like the Richmond-Coburg alignment will remain :thumbsup.
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Looks like the AFL ressies idea is a no goer according to Inside Football/SEN. Most likely next year there'll be a expanded VFL with 4 AFL clubs going alone with their own VFL team. They are just waiting for the hand down of the report into the VFL.
So it looks like the Richmond-Coburg alignment will remain :thumbsup.
Correct :thumbsup
Have to say it is has been a very big talking point at VFL games over the past few weeks.
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National reserves league ruled out
13 July 2007 Herald Sun
Daryl Timms
AN AFL review into the second-tier competition in Victoria has ruled out the need for a national reserves league.
AFL game development general manager David Matthews said yesterday the league should complete its review in a couple of weeks.
"At this stage we are starting to formulate some ideas and the ideas are based around the fact that the competition can continue to evolve," Matthews said.
"And it doesn't need anything as dramatic as a national reserves competition.
"We are still putting some finishing touches on things."
"We have seen some examples where alignments do work, so I think the competition itself has a future. The configuration is something we still need to work on," he said.
Full article at: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,22065498%255E19742,00.html
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It appears the Calder -> Coburg -> Richmond may be set in concrete as a three-tier affiliation.
Clubs urged to maintain VFL links
27 July 2007 Herald Sun
Damian Barrett
VICTORIAN AFL clubs will be urged to retain their alignments with VFL clubs instead of going it alone in the state's second-tier competition.
While some clubs, including Carlton and Collingwood, intend fielding their own teams in the VFL in the future, the AFL would prefer current affiliations were kept.
The AFL recommendation was revealed to club chief executives at a two-day meeting in Melbourne that concluded yesterday.
The AFL is yet to finalise its ideal format for the second-tier competition, but it is known consideration is being given to also align under-18 teams competing in the TAC Cup with VFL clubs.
Such an initiative would introduce a pathway for draft hopefuls to play against men, as is the case in other states.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,22141606%255E19742,00.html
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Calder --- Coburg --- Richmond ...
do you know how good Calder are ???
if this is allowed i will be rapt !!!
Calder Cannons are the Best Under 18's team in the competition !!!
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Calder --- Coburg --- Richmond ...
do you know how good Calder are ???
if this is allowed i will be rapt !!!
Calder Cannons are the Best Under 18's team in the competition !!!
:clapping :clapping :clapping :cheers :thumbsup
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VFL links set to continue
Chris Walker | August 4, 2007
MOST Victorian-based AFL clubs are expected to retain their affiliation with the VFL, AFL Victoria chief executive Peter Schwab said yesterday.
After meetings with key stakeholders, including Victorian-based AFL clubs, VFL clubs, the AFL Commission and AFL Victoria, the AFL second-tier review committee provided recommendations on the direction of the VFL that were agreed to in principle by the AFL.
The AFL Commission's support of the review committee's findings will be finalised next month, with its recommendations forming the basis for continued investigation and discussion expected to be complete by mid-2008.
The primary recommendation was that alignment between AFL and VFL clubs would continue to play a big role in elite Victorian football.
It was agreed that the VFL and under-18 competition be integrated to form one regionally-based talent entity, providing pathways for young footballers.
The recommendations do not rule out AFL clubs fielding stand-alone teams in the VFL. Carlton and Collingwood are undecided about whether to retain their connections with their respective VFL affiliates, the Northern Bullants and Williamstown, or field an AFL reserves side within the VFL competition as Geelong currently does.
"The stuff (from AFL clubs) in response to the recommendations has been on the whole supportive. However, there are still some AFL clubs who have not finalised their position for 2008, and they may choose to stand alone," Schwab said. "We would encourage them not to. Ideally, we would like all the affiliations to stay.
"Our preference is for no changes to the VFL in 2008 and we still strongly support all current VFL clubs continuing."
Yesterday's decision effectively has ended hopes for a Victorian or national reserves competition, or a proposed 12-team eastern seaboard competition that would include Sydney and the Brisbane Lions, with costs and lack of resources big drawbacks.
Full article at: http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/vfl-links-set-to-continue/2007/08/03/1185648149062.html