One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Moi on March 11, 2007, 12:41:58 PM
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... we had traded Richo when he had enormous value, not topped up with Brown who won't see a premiership with the Tiges (which I hope I'm wrong), told Gas to get on his bike when he wanted more money?
I'm starting to think that even if we make the finals this year, we may go backwards again once these players retire. Two of them I think will leave a pretty big gap that I don't see "yet" coming up to take their place.
I think we can make the finals this year if things go our way, but I worry about the above scenario happening.
Discuss lol
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And anyone who says, "Oh, we couldn't have traded Richo" I'll throw up lol
It's just a scenario, not the real thing lol
Be cold-hearted for once and think about what might have been.
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... we had traded Richo when he had enormous value, not topped up with Brown who won't see a premiership with the Tiges (which I hope I'm wrong), told Gas to get on his bike when he wanted more money?
I'm starting to think that even if we make the finals this year, we may go backwards again once these players retire. Two of them I think will leave a pretty big gap that I don't see "yet" coming up to take their place.
I think we can make the finals this year if things go our way, but I worry about the above scenario happening.
Discuss lol
Totally agree with you Moi
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Not really a concern as it was always going to happen.
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Not really a concern as it was always going to happen.
Might have been always going to happen, especially with Richo, but needn't have happened IMO
The result is we never saw us playing regular finals with him. Doesn't matter how good a champion player he could have been, if you don't have other talent in your team to be able to deliver to him, he's useless, as has been the case with the useless cattle we've recruited over the last decade.
Smart drafting and trading might have seen us with better depth.
Players like Gas shouldn't hold clubs to ransom. I don't blame him for him staying on, just the useless management we had at the time who didn't use him as good trade bait.
Browny puts a smile on the dial but that's about all we'll get I reckon.
If we can't make the finals this year with these ageing three, what chance over the next 5 as we have to replace them?
I'm glad Terry's with us, but I somehow think the mistakes of the past may mean he is fighting a losing battle for the foreseeable future and will cop the stuff, which he shouldn't IMO.
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Sorry what i meant was that after winning the spoon in 2004 it was always going to be that these older players would be gone before we had
a team good enough to be say a top 4 team. Disappointing but not exactly a major shock or new news.
With that in mind i have generally thought after 2004 it would take at least 5 years before we have a finals team and another 2-3 before a top 4 team..
Thats why i am probably not as disappointed with our efforts so far as other people are given i always thought it would take a long time to get there so the fact we are still a long way off is not a real surprise..
Your other point about not giving up picks for guys like browny was spot on..Never should have happened given the position
we were in and no doubt we would be much better off now had we not done that...
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Actually Terry will have to take the blame for Browny - my bad lol :wallywink
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Oh I get it - if we traded Richo we'd be playing regular finals - is that a joke? How many players were we going to get - 20?
Re Gasper - he was out of contract and Freo had first pick in the pre season draft = nothing for him. He was coming off All Australian (minus one year maybe, can't be sure) so we were basically screwed by Freo and had to pay up. Five years was a stretch but we were in no position to play hard ball.
Next person that says we should've traded Richo means :wallywink
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How many finals games have we played with them, oldtimer?
Can't count many!
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Give me the scenario where we traded Richo and got player(s) who would now be so dominant for us that we'd be playing regular finals.
Name the players, and how we got them - assuming we are talking more than one - or would a "Chris Judd" be the difference himself?
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You don't have to trade for star players, MJS. You could have traded for decent draft picks and a few 50 game plus kids.
Trouble is even if we did do that, the loops that ran the place wouldn't have known what to do with them anyway.
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And you give me a team that has gone on to win a premiership with a couple of star players earning the big bickies with the rest of the team topped up with discards from other clubs, like we've been doing the past 10 years. It hasn't worked too well has it?
Terry says we don't have to bottom out, but you also dont get continued success with drafting players who are 27 or whatever, when we know most players don't play after their 30 these days.
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Fiora before Pavlich says it all.
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We appointed Rodney Eade isntead of Terry Wallace :o :o
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We appointed Rodney Eade isntead of Terry Wallace :o :o
You're catching Jack's disease lol
Terry wasn't even here when we made most of these decisions
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On Richo:
- He's played in one finals series in his entire career. One. 6 seasons ago now.
- Never won a best and fairest at Richmond.
- We've won more games without him in the side than with him as a career ratio.
- Despite a procession of coaches working out how best to utilise him, for years we have been 'Richo-centric' and the laughing stock of the competition. :banghead
I agree with you to a degree Moi, despite my love for the big fella I'm not sure he's been as great for Richmond as is made out.
Other clubs have moved on better players than Matthew when things weren't working, yet until the arrival of TW we've always been loathe to make the tough decisions on players(Knights aside >:() for the betterment of the club.
You may well be right that if we had traded him for a couple of primo draft picks things may well have been different but there is really little value in speculating about all that now.
Again I'll reiterate I'm a huge fan of Madcow but it does amaze me how little team success he has enjoyed considering how good a player he is.
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I luv the old girl to death meself and probably would have been heart broken to see him play with another club. But if they could have done a deal that meant the club would have gone forward instead of backwards by their stop gap measures, I would have sadly said goodbye.
Not as keen on Gas lol, so if a trade could have been made at some stage would have been great. And despite Freo in the waiting had we not signed him, I'm sure he could have been traded elsewhere. At the time, he was flying and wouldn't have taken much to persuade another club - even a West Coast if he wanted to return home - for his services.
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Whats done is done, the question is what are we gonna do now. Whose tradeable, who isnt, who can get us decent picks- sadly i cant see much.
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I think the biggest mistake we made was retaining Gaspar and Holland.
Holland was the big one, we could have got Daniel Wells instead and we would have had more money to get other players who would be still at the club now and giving us a decent service.
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Julz is going to luv you for starting this thread Moi lol
At any other club where they had decent coaches, recruiters and admins then you could be reasonably confident trading Richo or Gas in their prime for a couple of first round picks would have paid off by now. However most our choices with our first round picks during Richo's 15 years with us have been hopeless. No superstars and only Petts and Lids you could argue are decent AFL players so far.
Agree with Bully that arguably the worst non-action as far as offloading a Tiger was not letting Ben Holland go in a straight swap for Sugar.
First round draft picks since Richo joined:
Wayne Hernaman
Justin Murphy
Damien Ryan
Pat Steinfort
Brad Ottens
Aaron Fiora
Kayne Pettifer
Jay Schulz
Lids, Tambo, Meyer, Patto
JON
Jack Riewoldt
Ben Holland (trade) - missed Shane Clayton
Craig Biddiscombe (trade) - missed Jude Bolton
Greg Stafford (trade) - missed James Kelly
Kane Johnson (trade) - gained Schulz, missed Daniel Wells
Nathan Brown (trade) - missed Kepler Bradley, Sam Butler
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Julz may hate me, but I did preface the thread by saying it was a scenario, not the real thing lol. But I've often wondered where we'd be if we had have traded him.
But like you say, MT, our recruitiing has been so substandard we probably would have 20 more Billy Nicholls etc on our list by now. Sorry Billy lol
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We appointed Rodney Eade isntead of Terry Wallace :o :o
Correct, half the price and a better return ;)
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We appointed Rodney Eade isntead of Terry Wallace :o :o
Correct, half the price and a better return ;)
Laurel and Hardy you two lol
Eade inherited a pretty good list, which Terry can take some credit for.
He hasn't won any premierships with them yet, so jury still out.
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We appointed Rodney Eade isntead of Terry Wallace :o :o
Correct, half the price and a better return ;)
Which coach wouldn't make the top 8 with the list Eade has inherited. Rohde might have been a dud matchday coach but he didn't decimate the doggies list like Spud did to us :banghead.
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Knowing both, Eade is lengths ahead of Plough ;)
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Knowing both, Eade is lengths ahead of Plough ;)
Tell that to a Swannies fan ;). Both left their former coaching jobs with the supporters glad to see the back of them.
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Ask the doggies fans what they think of Wallet , sorry wallace.
Its no fluke that Wayne Campbell, Chris Bond and Leon Cameron are coaching at the doggies either.
Oh yeah, we have Gordon casey ::), David King, ::) Jade Rawlings ::) and Craig McCrae
Wallace left the dogs gutted!
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Ask the doggies fans what they think of Wallet , sorry wallace.
That's what I said in my above post :yep.
The thing is Swannies fan thought the same of Eade. Remember he was axed midyear at Sydney.
Roos >>>>>>>> Wallace, Eade. Both the latter have done sweet FA in 10 years of coaching. This is both their last chance.
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Funny thing is that everyone bags Sheedy, Pagan but they are actually great coaches who dont rely on ""tricks""
Matthews likewise.
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Yep, Sheeds has never had anything to do with "tricks". :lol
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Yep, Sheeds has never had anything to do with "tricks". :lol
:rollin
"Possibly one of his [Walls] weaknesses was that he only wanted to coach the team, not build the organisation" - Sheeds
Wave your bomber jackets everyone ;).
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Yep, Sheeds has never had anything to do with "tricks". :lol
Not on the field he hasnt, off the field ,yes
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I watched him play for years. He had plenty of tricks and was especially good at upsetting Carlton opponents.
Maybe you mean on field as a coach? Throat slitting gesture ring any bells?
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To be honest - I really don't know.
Sure we could have traded the big bloke but IMO that wouldn't have been enough. Granted it would have given us the oppotunity for some high draft picks but how would we have used them? The problems we've had over the last 15 years have been all over the ground.
As for the Gas situation back at the end of 2001 - well perhaps we could played that one a bit differently but I agree the one we stuffed up on was Holland and that was a major one. MAJOR
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Yep, Sheeds has never had anything to do with "tricks". :lol
Not on the field he hasnt, off the field ,yes
Marshmellows anyone ::)
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Matthews -"if it bleeds will can kill it"
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Dont know how we drfted here, but while were at it ...
The Earth is slow but the Ox is patient. One of my favs
And if he was a Richmond ox he would have to be very patient ... or for RFC
The Earth is slow but the Ox is on Xanax ..... lol
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Yep, Sheeds has never had anything to do with "tricks". :lol
Not on the field he hasnt, off the field ,yes
Marshmellows anyone ::)
Marshmellows have nothing to do if a team plays an 8 man defense etc etc.
I meant to say on field strategys, he has no tricks, unlike, Eade and Wallace
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4 things:
1. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
2. The draft picks we may have got in exchange for Richo may have ended up mediocre or worse.
3. Sheedy has always been full of tricks,ploys and sly moves,in all aspects of footy.
4. Don't waste time on "what if's" (hang on, I should apply that to my private life!)
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I meant to say on field strategys, he has no tricks, unlike, Eade and Wallace
That's fair enough. :)
He doesn't mess much with on field structure. That could be seen as a flaw when you look at what Pagan did with team structure at North where he was lucky enough to have Carey.
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I meant to say on field strategys, he has no tricks, unlike, Eade and Wallace
That's fair enough. :)
He doesn't mess much with on field structure. That could be seen as a flaw when you look at what Pagan did with team structure at North where he was lucky enough to have Carey.
Sheeds made his name as coach by throwing his side around at 3/4 time in the 84 grand final. Threw the Essendon backline forward and they kicked 9 goals to come from 4 goals down to win.
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For me the Ben Holland deal sticks out more than any other in recent years.
Overpaid him to keep him at Punt Rd does his knee in Rd 4 2001 against Freo
we trade Torney for Johnson. Hindsight is a wonderful thing we could have kept Torney and
had Johnson. Then he kicks 4 against us in Rd 2 2004 when he is at Melbourne and on top
of that we are still paying the bulk of his salary :banghead
As for Gaspar he was coming off an all Australian season
and he was 25 yrs old at the time so he did technically have the best years of his career ahead of him
but as I said hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Danny Frawley has set this club back 10 years.
I remember in 2003 after rd 1 v the Pies when Greg Miller said there will be 4 more years of pain
before the Tigers can legitimately play for finals well that time has come and judging from our form
so far to date we still may be a while off.
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I remember in 2003 after rd 1 v the Pies when Greg Miller said there will be 4 more years of pain before the Tigers can legitimately play for finals well that time has come and judging from our form so far to date we still may be a while off.
The 2003 draft put us back a further year at least. Only Rainsey plus Browny to show for it in terms of classy players. Tucky will probably survive another year or two. Jacko and Harts on last chance (most likely gone end of this year). Gilmour, Roach, Morrison, Fletcher and Archibald already gone.
Ordinary draft that year to be fair after first 20. Lions did well getting Adcock and Rischitelli late.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_AFL_Draft
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Ordinary draft that year to be fair after first 20. Lions did well getting Adcock and Rischitelli late.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_AFL_Draft
You're right, MT. Very few high-performing players from that group, so far at least. Sam Fisher at 55 was good value. Raines was the best value pick in that entire draft.
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Would we have been playing regular finals now if ...
We hadn't Chosen Frawley & Beck over Laurel & Hardy :banghead :banghead
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6325/bild4smso6.jpg)
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Then he kicks 4 against us in Rd 2 2004 when he is at Melbourne and on top
of that we are still paying the bulk of his salary :banghead
Are no we are not - that deal has long passed