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Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: bluey_21 on June 15, 2007, 10:18:25 PM

Title: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 15, 2007, 10:18:25 PM
Who would you rather.

I'd take Cotchin as there are plenty of good rucks a bit later in the draft
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: mightytiges on June 16, 2007, 06:48:09 PM
I've said a few times that drafting a ruckman with our first pick would make me nervous just for the fact that ruckman take a number of years to develop and there's a risk in that. I know Kreuzer is meant to be a gun and he's in the bests every week for the Northern Knights but IMO you can still find future quality ruckmen later in the draft if you do your homework whereas quality ballwinning onballers  seem to be available moreso early on. Leaving out a stuff like Judd, there's Hodge, Ball (before OP), Wells, Conney, McLean, Murphy. If Cotchin is as good and skillful a ballwinner and user as those at the same age then that's who I'd take. Football games are won in and out of the midfield.

Btw there's a rumour doing the rounds that we may try to offer our PP or pick 18 plus a player to upsize and get another first round pick. Aim to get Cotchin and say McEvoy. There's a early phantom draft on BF which has McEvoy at 17 but most people  seem to think he won't last until then.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: jezza on June 16, 2007, 08:13:47 PM
I'm all for Kreuzer at the moment for the following reasons:

1. The Weaver Prinipal - if you draft a standout ruck with your first pick who is rated pretty much a sure thing, then for the next 5 or 6 drafts you don't have to spend an early pick on a ruck, you can afford to use late picks or rookie spots to try and find your backups. Kreuzer by all reports looks a sure thing and at worst will still be a serviceable first choice ruckman for us.

2. I've read from a few people that Crotchin is similar to Deledio in that he's more of a utility type, not a genuine on-baller, doesn't play that much of his junior footy on the ball. This may be false, but if not then I wouldn't want to spend pick 1 on him. Utility types like that are great if the rest of your team is good, but they are more icing on the cake than building a side around.

But my opinion is certainly open to change as more information comes in, much will depend on who is going to be available for our 2 picks at the start of the second round and who the standouts are at the start of the draft. If there's quality rucks that are still going to be there at 17 then we can afford to not take one early, as long as there's a good enough midfield prospect on offer with our first pick.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 17, 2007, 04:08:35 PM
My chain of though is similar to MT.

Cotchin and McEvoy would be excellent.

And just with Cotchin I can assure he is an onballer.

Possesses some Deledio elements like the ability to burst from packs, but he is a natural INSIDE ball winner.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 17, 2007, 10:17:43 PM
Quote
Trent played in the midfield and displayed a diverse array of skills and an ability to win contested inside possessions. He also utilized his running capabilities to run and carry the football. In the national carnival he averaged 20 possessions of which 10 were contested

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/Season2007/News/NewsArticle/tabid/6301/Default.aspx?newsId=39864 (http://www.richmondfc.com.au/Season2007/News/NewsArticle/tabid/6301/Default.aspx?newsId=39864)

Good background info on Trent, also some good stats
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 17, 2007, 10:19:05 PM
Seeing as there is a write up on Trent, it looks like there is big interest in him
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 17, 2007, 10:42:26 PM
BTW when is the cut off DOB for the draft.

Just noticed that Cotchin's is July 7 1990. Isn't that too young?
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: one-eyed on June 18, 2007, 04:06:49 AM
Cotchin's D.O.B. is the 7th April 1990.

Trent Cotchin
Clubs: Northern Knights/PEGS
D.O.B.: 7th April 1990
Hgt: 184cm
Wgt: 81kg

Natural Foot: Right (but very comfortable on his left)

His fitness testing at the AIS:

Player           Hgt     Wgt   Skin SVJ RVJ 5m   10m   20m Agility Beep
T.Cotchin      183.4  79.6  43.7  71  83  1.12  1.76  2.96   8.37   13.5
Luke Ball       182.8  72.4  30.8  71  90  0.98 1.68   2.85   8.66   14.2
Brock McLean 183.4  85.9  53    58  69  1.05  1.80  3.03   8.61   14.3


Note: Cotchin's testing is at age 16 whilst Ball and McLean's were at 17.

RFC confident his acceleration (5m) and endurance (beep) will be equivalent to Ball and McLean's in October when Cotchin attends the draft camp giving him a very high speed/endurance rating.

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/Season2007/News/NewsArticle/tabid/6301/Default.aspx?newsId=39864

TAC Cup stats:
http://www.sportingpulse.com/nf/team_info.cgi?player=Trent%20Cotchin&action=PSTATS&pID=143804335&client=1-3020-0-52873-5262046 (http://www.sportingpulse.com/nf/team_info.cgi?player=Trent%20Cotchin&action=PSTATS&pID=143804335&client=1-3020-0-52873-5262046)

Matt Kreuzer
Clubs: Northern Knights/Bundoora
D.O.B.: 13th May 1989
Hgt: 199cm
Wgt: 91kg

TAC Cup stats:
http://www.sportingpulse.com/nf/team_info.cgi?player=Matt%20Kreuzer&action=PSTATS&pID=123051527&client=1-3020-0-52873-5262046 (http://www.sportingpulse.com/nf/team_info.cgi?player=Matt%20Kreuzer&action=PSTATS&pID=123051527&client=1-3020-0-52873-5262046)

http://northernknights.footballvic.com.au/_content/document/00052457-src.htm
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: torch on June 18, 2007, 01:16:40 PM
Trent Cotchin ... we need classy midfielders !!!

there ...

was a mention on "Addam Maric" ...

i believe Maric will be the best small forward in the draft ...

i believe we should try and get both ...

if we are going to pick up a Ruckman ... get them later in the draft !!!
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: Ramps on June 18, 2007, 04:02:27 PM
No to Maric
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 18, 2007, 04:39:32 PM
No to Maric

Is it because he is small, because he is otherwise a very good talent
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 18, 2007, 04:41:58 PM
Cotchin's D.O.B. is the 7th April 1990.

Thanks for that Mr One-eyed  :thumbsup

Was unsure because on the AIS website it has his DOB as July 7  ???

But it didn't look right, thanks for clearing it up
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: Ramps on June 18, 2007, 04:43:54 PM
i have aversions to recruiting forward pockets. he may be excellent in that role, but we need to other types of players. Rucks, Key defenders, Inside Mids. Forward Pockets shouldnt even be on the list.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 18, 2007, 05:01:28 PM
i have aversions to recruiting forward pockets. he may be excellent in that role, but we need to other types of players. Rucks, Key defenders, Inside Mids. Forward Pockets shouldnt even be on the list.

good points, anyways we already have Peterson  :thumbsup
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: wayne on June 18, 2007, 05:03:01 PM
Is their any talent at all in WA or SA this year?

All the prospective top picks seem to be Victorian.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 18, 2007, 05:36:19 PM
Is their any talent at all in WA or SA this year?

All the prospective top picks seem to be Victorian.


There is a bit of talent there, Masten, Gourdis, Meyers.

Also have Mulligan from bananaland and Motlop from NT.

Would prefer to draft Vic boys where possible;
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: mightytiges on June 18, 2007, 07:37:28 PM
Is their any talent at all in WA or SA this year?

All the prospective top picks seem to be Victorian.


There is a bit of talent there, Masten, Gourdis, Meyers.

Also have Mulligan from bananaland and Motlop from NT.

Would prefer to draft Vic boys where possible;
Not top 5 pics but still a few very good types is the news out of SA.

Brad Ebert from Port Magpies. Has played a couple of SANFL senior games already. Ready to go natural footballer - good skills/hands/decision making. Cousin of Brett and obviously nephew of Russ.

Hamish Hartlett (Westies), Tom Holmes (Glenelg) and Tom McNamara (South) are also highly rated.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 18, 2007, 08:52:59 PM
Is their any talent at all in WA or SA this year?

All the prospective top picks seem to be Victorian.


There is a bit of talent there, Masten, Gourdis, Meyers.

Also have Mulligan from bananaland and Motlop from NT.

Would prefer to draft Vic boys where possible;
Not top 5 pics but still a few very good types is the news out of SA.

Brad Ebert from Port Magpies. Has played a couple of SANFL senior games already. Ready to go natural footballer - good skills/hands/decision making. Cousin of Brett and obviously nephew of Russ.

Hamish Hartlett (Westies), Tom Holmes (Glenelg) and Tom McNamara (South) are also highly rated.

Ebert is a good talent, not in our range though.

Holmes would have been drafted last year if not for a knee reco

Hartlett apparently is a stuff, but in next years draft
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: mightytiges on June 18, 2007, 10:28:03 PM
Is their any talent at all in WA or SA this year?

All the prospective top picks seem to be Victorian.


There is a bit of talent there, Masten, Gourdis, Meyers.

Also have Mulligan from bananaland and Motlop from NT.

Would prefer to draft Vic boys where possible;
Not top 5 pics but still a few very good types is the news out of SA.

Brad Ebert from Port Magpies. Has played a couple of SANFL senior games already. Ready to go natural footballer - good skills/hands/decision making. Cousin of Brett and obviously nephew of Russ.

Hamish Hartlett (Westies), Tom Holmes (Glenelg) and Tom McNamara (South) are also highly rated.

Ebert is a good talent, not in our range though.

Holmes would have been drafted last year if not for a knee reco

Hartlett apparently is a stuff, but in next years draft
You're right bluey about Hartlett. D.O.B. 14/8/90. Made the U15 Australian cricket team as well.

We could always try to trade into Ebert's range. (2/4/90, 187cm, 86kg)

Tom Holmes at 174cm, 73kg isn't what we need.

Tom McNamara numbers are (29/4/90, 189cm, 84kg).

Btw in Cotchin's AIS profile he wants to be like Judd and Lids.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 18, 2007, 10:32:08 PM
Nah, Ebert looks like a late top 10 pick, no one with a top ten pick will trade it
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 18, 2007, 10:44:58 PM
anticipating Carlton win another game and Melbourne don't get a PP. we end up with pick 1, 17 and 18 in the top 20.

I'd say get
1. Cotchin - top flight inside midfielder who IMO will slot straight into the team. Provides more grunt to the midfield
17. McEvoy - Extremely talented ruckman. Great mobility, versatility and skills. Will be a gun and hope he sneaks through to out PP
18. Best available. Grimes, Motlop and Henderson are all options that could fall and would snap up any one of them. Grimes more midfield grunt, Motlop is a magician, Henderson is a big, athletic and aggressive KPP
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: mightytiges on June 18, 2007, 11:25:16 PM
Nah, Ebert looks like a late top 10 pick, no one with a top ten pick will trade it

Not necessarily need them to give the pick up totally but aim to swap our PP for it + chucking in a player or part of a 3-way trade chucking in a 40ish pick. If the draftees around that 10-17 range are rated fairly similarly (like we did with picks 8-13 last year) then we might be able to persuade them. It's a hard ask but someone like McEvoy may not last until our second pick.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: Mr Magic on June 19, 2007, 12:58:34 PM
I've said a few times that drafting a ruckman with our first pick would make me nervous just for the fact that ruckman take a number of years to develop and there's a risk in that. I know Kreuzer is meant to be a gun and he's in the bests every week for the Northern Knights but IMO you can still find future quality ruckmen later in the draft if you do your homework whereas quality ballwinning onballers  seem to be available moreso early on.

Totally agree MT.
Definitely go the quality mid with the first pick
Our midfield needs quality desperately.

Cotchin for me at this point.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 20, 2007, 03:51:31 PM
Nah, Ebert looks like a late top 10 pick, no one with a top ten pick will trade it

Not necessarily need them to give the pick up totally but aim to swap our PP for it + chucking in a player or part of a 3-way trade chucking in a 40ish pick. If the draftees around that 10-17 range are rated fairly similarly (like we did with picks 8-13 last year) then we might be able to persuade them. It's a hard ask but someone like McEvoy may not last until our second pick.

True, but who do we have to lure such a deal. Meyer and Schulz maybe?
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: mightytiges on June 20, 2007, 05:50:16 PM
Nah, Ebert looks like a late top 10 pick, no one with a top ten pick will trade it

Not necessarily need them to give the pick up totally but aim to swap our PP for it + chucking in a player or part of a 3-way trade chucking in a 40ish pick. If the draftees around that 10-17 range are rated fairly similarly (like we did with picks 8-13 last year) then we might be able to persuade them. It's a hard ask but someone like McEvoy may not last until our second pick.

True, but who do we have to lure such a deal. Meyer and Schulz maybe?
Not Meyer as he's a small with no trade value. Schulz maybe as a KPP. Might get a side who thinks the idea of picking up a youngish KPP as well as still a mid at 17 attractive. We may offer a midrange pick instead that we picked up in a trade. Who knows.  St Kilda gave up their first pick for Fergus Watts who has done nothing.
Title: Matt Kreuzer article (Herald-Sun)
Post by: one-eyed on June 22, 2007, 03:17:48 AM
Tonight's loser may find white Knight
22 June 2007   Herald-Sun
Jon Anderson

(http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,5535634,00.jpg)
Next big thing: Matt Kreuzer is one youngster on the rise. Picture: Norm Oorloff

TONIGHT'S MCG clash between cellar dwellers Richmond and Melbourne may provide the loser with one of the most accomplished young footballers of the past decade.

Standing 199cm, Matthew Kreuzer is already seen as the jewel in this year's national draft crown even before division one of the national under-18 championships begins at Subiaco Oval tomorrow week.

The 18-year-old from the Northern Knights is capable of playing ruck or key forward, making him the most sought-after young player in the land.

This week Kreuzer, and his family, appointed Elite Sports to manage his affairs.

"I was getting heaps of phone calls so we thought we should make a decision," said Kreuzer, who barracks for Collingwood and lists Dean Cox and Josh Fraser as his idols.

Many experienced recruiting and under-18 managers compare him to a young Fraser, the Magpies' 1999 No. 1 draft pick.

Take Essendon's respected list manager Adrian Dodoro, who knows with seven wins already that his club is going to be out of the race.

"Matthew is a rare talent with an ability to influence games like few others who have come through the system. A really exciting young player," Dodoro.

Or Geelong Falcons regional manager Michael Turner, who in the past 12 years has overseen players such as Jonathan Brown, Matthew Scarlett and Gary Ablett Jr.

"I should qualify my assessment by admitting I've only seen Matthew Kreuzer play once, on a wet day in Colac earlier this year," Turner said.

"In that game he produced one of the most outstanding under-18 performances I've seen. He has the speed of a wingman and agility of a ruck-rover and also showed a lot of grit on a wet day."

Western Bulldogs recruiting manager Scott Clayton knows that Kreuzer will be long gone before the Bulldogs have a pick in the draft but he likes what he's seen.

"He finds the ball easier than most ruckmen I've seen and accumulates a lot of possession.," Clayton said.

Kreuzer has agility, can run 20m in 3.06sec and has recorded a beep test of 14.5, but he finds the increasing attention embarrassing..

"All I want to do is play footy. Footy is my life and I love everything about it. I can't wait for the championships to start," he said.

Joining Kreuzer at the titles, which are spread this year between Perth, Adelaide, Geelong and Princes Park, are Northern Knights teammates Trent Cotchin and Jack Grimes.

Both are highly rated onballers, with Cotchin tipped to be not far behind Kreuzer in the November draft.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21947288%255E19771,00.html
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: bluey_21 on June 23, 2007, 10:02:42 AM
Going by the hitout and clearance stats and the end score, I am starting to wonder if we must get a top ruckman.

IMO, getting a gun ruckman is desirable but not mandatory
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: mightytiges on June 23, 2007, 06:52:06 PM
We've seen two games this weekend where the team that has dominated the hitouts get its pants pulled down in the clearances. A good ruckman is still very  important as we this year and Grant Thomas and the Saints learnt the hard way but it's the classy ballwinning midfielders who clear the footy more often than not and hit forward targets lace out.
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: one-eyed on January 22, 2009, 06:05:22 PM
Well one of the benefits of ending up with pick 2 in the 2007 draft is we can thankfully leave it to some bluebaggers to worry for the next 10+ years about missing out on Cotchin  ;).

Quote
I know this has been done ad nauseum, but I am so sick of hearing about Cotchin in the media I just wanted to bring it up once more.

I just can't help but wonder which way we should have gone. I appreciate what we have in Kreuzer and we are not going to see his best for a few years yet, but every time ( and I mean EVERY SINGLE TIME) the name Cotchin is mentioned, it is is always in reference to him being close to if not the best youngster in the land. Did we pass up on Chris Judd? Is he going to be the one that got away?

I know only time will tell, but at times I just can't help but feel that we have passed on an out and out match winning superstar for a bloke who has a great attitude and will be a very good solid contributor..........

are the media warping my thoughts?

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23784&sid=24c53c16b7f6b3679a2f47e830631afc (http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23784&sid=24c53c16b7f6b3679a2f47e830631afc)
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: Stripes on January 22, 2009, 09:31:59 PM
Thanks OE. I love hearing Carlton fans doubting their decision and discussing the one that got away....a bit like a Hawthorn supporter and...well let's just focus on our man Cotch. Hope he grows out of these achilles problems.

Stripes
Title: Re: Kreuzer or Cotchin?
Post by: Francois Jackson on January 22, 2009, 09:41:21 PM
I dont care who is better now i care who is better at the end of the careers

i would prefer not to hear, see or read no hype on this kid.

He is a gem but still has to prove it