One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on June 24, 2007, 03:25:31 AM
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Richmond must say 'no tanks'
24 June 2007 Sunday Herald Sun
Jon Ralph
DRAFT picks are over-rated.
Say that within breathing space of a Tiger fan desperate to rebuild through priority picks, and you are likely to cop a Chris Tarrant uppercut to the chin.
But Richmond's brains trust has some decisions to make, because the supporters can't have it both ways.
The Tigers either tank for a priority pick or come home like a freight train, singing their theme song and missing that extra selection.
The beauty of the AFL's recent changes to the priority pick system means - with only pick 17 up for grabs for underperforming - to tank or not to tank is a question up for debate.
Here is the deal: a side that wins four or fewer games in any given year receives the first pick of the second round of the draft (17), with pick one given only for two consecutive seasons under four wins.
If the Tigers were in this situation last year, their worst move would have been to start winning games to disqualify themselves from that pick.
With only pick 17 on offer, will the Tigers benefit more from a second-round pick or from winning 4-6 of their last 10 games to build some momentum for next year.
One of the furphies surrounding recent draft successes at various clubs is that first and second-round picks always come through.
The situation couldn't be further from the truth.
First-round picks are like gold, but from there it is still very much a mixed bag.
Consider pick 17s from 1998-2006: Peter Street, Ezra Bray, James Davies, James Kelly, Cameron Faulkner, Billy Morrison, Andrew McQualter, Darren Pfeiffer and Shaun Hampson.
Not a lot of stars in there, notwithstanding Kelly's form this year.
Richmond - already guaranteed a top-three pick - simply must build for the future by trying to finish the year as Hawthorn did last year: on a roll.
The Hawks won their last four of 2006, stored away that self-belief, worked their butts off over the preseason and came out firing this season.
Richmond must do the same.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21956749%255E19771,00.html
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If they as a playing group have any pride in themselves they will be trying to win every game. You can't train a winning mindset by losing on purpose. And any coach that coaches in the direction of undermining the winning intention of his players should be sacked.
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Well said Roger.
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If they as a playing group have any pride in themselves they will be trying to win every game. You can't train a winning mindset by losing on purpose. And any coach that coaches in the direction of undermining the winning intention of his players should be sacked.
Totally agree
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If they as a playing group have any pride in themselves they will be trying to win every game. You can't train a winning mindset by losing on purpose. And any coach that coaches in the direction of undermining the winning intention of his players should be sacked.
Totally agree
Ditto.
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If they as a playing group have any pride in themselves they will be trying to win every game. You can't train a winning mindset by losing on purpose. And any coach that coaches in the direction of undermining the winning intention of his players should be sacked.
Totally agree
Ditto.
Ditto again :thumbsup :lol
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I'm willing to give up the priority pick in exchange for another 5 wins.
However, I want Melbourne, Brisbane and Carlton to keep winning so that we at least get pick 2. Our main concern might be gaining the 1st pick in the PSD - that could be crucial re leverage - doing a Simmonds-like trade deal by threat, then following it up with a ruckman at pick 1 in the PSD.
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Personally I want pick 2. there are 2 standout players Cotchin and Kreuzer, and at the end of the day getting either will leave me really rapt. The main reason for this is that I don't mind recruiting either and with pick 2 you get one of those 2 future stars but you don't get the Cotchin or Kreuzer better than the other comparisons.
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If there are 2 games I want to win they are Richo vs Port. And out kids vs the Dawks' kids
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Actually said to MT & bg25 on Friday night (prior to the game) that the only game I really want to win is the one against the Hawks - just to shut people up - I am so tired of hearing about how good the Hawks are :banghead
Facts are they should be with the likes of Mitchell, Hodge etc in that 23-25 bracket starting to fire consistently ::) ::)
On the question of whther to tank or not to tank...
Long term and short term winning is and will be of much greater benefit to our young team than losing. They should want to win ever game - that should be the plan, goal and mindset
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tank tank tank tank tank tank tank tank tank ...
why win matches now ???
if we were 5-7 still a chance ...
4-8 sort of ...
anything less ... tank tank tank tank ...
play young players ...
time to say goodbye to Tivendale, Hyde, Hall, Moore, Kingsley, Hartigan, Knoble
tank tank tank tank tank tank tank tank tank tank tank ...
max wins: 4 ... obviously ...
and YES ...
hopefully Carlton, Melbourne, Brisbane win 5/6 matches
so ... 3 more wins then torch ??? who against then ...
well ... its very ones opinion really ... mine would be these 3 ...
Round 14: Kangaroos (TD) (Home) ... don't lose to the most overrated and poo team ...
Round 16: Port Adelaide (MCG) (Home) ... this is just a match we should have a tick next to ...
Round 21: Essendon (MCG) (Away) ... i hate these idiots ... revenge from Round 9 ... and you don't lose to the 2nd most overrated and "kidding themselves football club" ever !
QUESTION: ...
there are matches where i would like us to win ...
but if we finish with 5/6 wins and on the bottom by % ... we still get 1st pick ... but no priority next year ??? ...
so really ... we aren't going to finish last again next year (hopefully) ... so win the matches that make us MATHEMATICALLY possible to finish LAST ... and get that first pick ...
i see there is no point in just losing matches ... but i want us to finish last for that no.1 and also players will be delisted !!!
if we finish 14th - 11th ... those players on "thin ice" will get another year !!!
so ...
other matches i would like to see Richmond win ???
Round 15 Hawthorn (MCG) (Away) ... i agree with "WilliamPowell" ... beat these idiots and shut them up ... yet i think they are a good team ... just hope we beat them !!!
Round 19 Collingwood (MCG) (Home) ... stuff them up making the final positionings for revenge too in Round 3 ... but i don't hate Collingwood ... i think they are coached really well !!!
so ...
6 wins ...
hmmmmmm
could this be history ??? most wins finishing last ???
back the Blues, Demons and Lions now ... we don't play either of them now !!!
also ... good to see us win against a team (underdone) that had the wood on us for 4 years ...
just get that monkey off our backs !!!
and Brown obviously ... just what we needed !!!
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We can only afford 2 more wins. We should Tank. Get something out of the wasted year. Beat Hawthorn / Collingwood and thats it. Why win now? :banghead
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I reckoned Terry was experimenting straight after half-time on Friday night given we were 10 goals up. Changed the personnel at the centre bounces (had Hyde in there for example). So there are less obvious ways to tank if we wanted to. He then went back to the first half set-ups for the last quarter.
As much as winning over the next 10 weeks will build up confidence and momentum, the stupid system will punish us for it if we go beyond 4 wins :scream. The way the Dees, Blues and Lions performed in their hitout a few late wins could see us finish 13th with no PP. It's one thing to say past pick 17 draftees have been failures but the PP could also be used in combo with a player to trade up for another first round pick.
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looks like we have a conundrum on our hands :help :help :help
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Flip a coin lol
I would say no to tanking... I believe they'll get more out of a winning momentum than tanking and get a PP. That's just my opinoin
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Can tell you all that the 22 players who run out onto the ground try there hardest to win, whether the team that is elected is capable of winning is a different story.
I would think we field our best side possible each week.
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Can tell you all that the 22 players who run out onto the ground try there hardest to win, whether the team that is elected is capable of winning is a different story.
I would think we field our best side possible each week.
I agree Jack, it's just that our best side possible for the first 11 weeks didn't include two of our most important players. If Simmo returns better than expected as well as Browny did on Friday night then the both of them could get us across the line in games that in the first 11 weeks we didn't know how to win.
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Can tell you all that the 22 players who run out onto the ground try there hardest to win, whether the team that is elected is capable of winning is a different story.
I would think we field our best side possible each week.
Yes definitely.
Jack, how do you rate our chances for Sat night?
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flip the coin
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3 top 20 picks should be the aim. We are bad and we deserve the assistance that we require. Tank baby tank! :pray
Bring it home Terry.
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shock to see the number or lack of votes. Surely it is the most important decision of the year for us. :banghead Minus the Election.
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The threads on this topic have been merged.
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Don't we get 2 picks in the top 20 anyway, even if we lose the priority pick?
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They wont tank.
I predict ,with the return of Simmonds and Brown,7/15
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not if carlton and melbourne tank wayne.
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They wont tank.
I predict ,with the return of Simmonds and Brown,7/15
9th again. :banghead
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As bad as 9th is, I would rather rub it in the noses of those who predicted we would finish last eg Roger Merrett for one.
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we would be getting lesser players though Julz. Oakley Nicholls ring a bell.
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Tank is weapon of choice in basement battle
Grant Thomas | July 8, 2007 | The Age
IT'S around this time of year that the key decision-makers within football clubs work out their strategies for the rest of the season. They have two options to consider. The attraction of each is proportionately lucrative, the rewards potentially defining. One is the quest for the AFL premiership cup and the other is the quest for the AFL draft cup.
The latter has come a long way extremely quickly. It has been more traditionally referred to, in somewhat derogatory fashion, as the "wooden spoon".
How times have changed. Where once teams had been highly motivated to avoid the ignominy of the wooden spoon, now we have a system that makes it a tantalising object of desire.
At the start of every AFL season, all 16 clubs have high expectation of playing finals football.
The previous season's cellar-dwellers make plans and adjustments that, if all goes well, will put them in the final eight. The sides that just miss out anticipate they will eke out some improvement that will allow them to take the next step. The finalists are looking to consolidate and ensure they make the necessary adjustments to take the next vital step. The premiership team is looking to put the silverware behind it and build on the intimidation factor it has earned.
In essence, if you stay the same, you go backwards. Commensurate improvement maintains the status quo, but probably doesn't get you there. Significant organic improvement, with astute development and recruitment and dramatically sharpened processes — that is the key. On top of all that, a little help from lady luck can make all your dreams come to fruition.
Once you have taken care of all of the controllable issues, you sit and hope like hell that the uncontrollable things, such as the vagaries of the draw and injuries to your players and to the opposition, fall in your favour.
There are many uncontrollable aspects to an AFL season that will take too long to outline, but you get my point.
By the mid-season break, the 16 teams that start the season full of anticipation and excitement become more like 10 to 12 that still have finals hopes.
Four to six teams already have made a decision they cannot make the finals, so are duty bound to look after the best interests of their club. They effectively have "put the flag up". That can only mean the draft for the following season and this is where a problem is emerging.
Clubs are tanking the season.
In the past, irrespective of circumstances, the embarrassment and dishonour of finishing down the bottom of the ladder carried with it a stigma that everyone in football detested and avoided at all costs. Confidence was down across the club, and you busted your butt to gain respect and dignity. You did not want to be associated with an embarrassing era of your club's history.
If the truth be known, that's why I invested the time and effort at St Kilda that I did. It wasn't an overnight revelation — it was the disgust and abhorrence of having been involved and responsible for one of the darkest eras in the club's predominantly dark history.
Now this is a revelation. Things have changed. You no longer are castigated and admonished for finishing down the bottom of the ladder.
You are called courageous and brave — akin to taking the bullet for the betterment of the club. You were prepared to make the selfless decisions to ensure the club gained the best advantage at the draft table. Do it for a couple of seasons and you get the Purple Heart of valour.
That's right — for orchestrating pee-poor performance! It is now called genius and a smart ploy.
I do not for a minute say that players tank games. Most of what I am talking about revolves around the club's decision-makers.
Players are assessed at the halfway mark and are suddenly out for the year with surgery to prepare them for the following pre-season. Young players are given more games and more game time to stuff their development. Or is it to cloud the real motive?
Older players who are at their competitive and aggressive best in the twilight of their careers, and possibly in their final year, are either retired, told they will not be played or just ignored.
Puzzling interchanges and even more baffling match-ups seem to arise during the latter half of the season. It will be interesting to see the Melbourne and Carlton match today.
What is the effect of all this? Well, that is what cannot be accurately defined at this time.
We can pontificate and debate the virtues of not having to play any of the teams that have raised the "white flag" in the last half of the season, but at the end of the day, the best team has to win the last game of the year and that is the grand final.
http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/tank-is-weapon-of-choice-in-basement-battle/2007/07/07/1183351518297.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
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A Herald-Sun hypothetical...
Tanks a lot, Chris
03 October 2007 Herald Sun
Mark Stevens
We didn't know it at the time, but Carlton was playing for the Judd Jug. With picks No. 1 and No. 3 in the bag, Carlton has the goodies to satisfy West Coast.
Richmond looms as an improving team next year, but for a moment imagine if the Tigers are stuck on four wins, a month out from the end of next season.
Knowing what the Blues have been able to achieve by being stranded on less than 20 points two years in a row, Tigers fans will be as spirited as ever -- only this time they will be barracking against their own team.
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,22522310%255E19742,00.html