One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Stripes on February 27, 2009, 04:34:49 PM
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Goodbye KPF! :'( Goodbye Long Kicks :'( Goodbye the bounce :'( Goodbye KPP :'( Goodbye Football as we know it.... :help
OK a bit dramatic I know and an over simplification of the fact but I really fear this zone will cause the Tigers a huge headache in 2009.
Last nights game showed me a glimpse of what every game will be like for the rest of the season. The Pies played a rolling half ground zone which they employed particularly effectively in their defensive half making entrees into their D50 extremely difficult. Hawthorn had used the zone across the middle of the ground meaning that if you broke through the zone you had free forwards waiting to exploit the defense.
Collingwood used every member of the team for the zone including its forwards which gave it a much bigger zone and made it extremely difficult to break through the zone because it extended further ahead than what had been used before. Even if you broke through 2 lines to have a chance to kick it into your F50 the Pies had a zone employed there too which meant forwards could not lead. If you bombed it in the defenders would have time to move to the drop of the ball and spoil. What this meant was that to get a goal we had to kick on the run or get opportunistic goals.
If there was a turn over the Collingwood forwards would attempt to move back into position but as we saw they were found out on a couple of occasions but otherwise they were still free to lead because we did not use zone in our defence.
I worry about this. The only way through is to slowly go around or try and handball your way through. The Pies used the way around we tries to go through. Going through worked against the Hawks because they still have kept their traditional backline/man-on-man defence but the Pies have carried the zone into that area too. To score you need to spot up almost stantionary targets with small kicks so getting a goal will take a great deal of skillful kicks and a great deal of patience both of which is difficult.
To top it off - it is ugly to watch just like flooding is/was.
Does anyone have a solution here?
Stripes
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The wheel will be re-invented :pray
I would look at something along the lines of playing your line up as close as possible to the original format.
Not letting the Forwards past H/F the H/F no more than wing et al. Yes if a side gets it forward it will be hard to stop a score but any turnover will be almost a certain goal, just must move the ball as quick and long as possible on the rebound.
Just simple under 14 stuff from the old days have a spine with crumbers running from the flanks and use the corridor. KISS man KISS
You could come up with arguments for and against but I genuinely believe it could work and to top it off I think you would get a lot of admirers from the purists from all clubs which would only hep the bottom line.
The rolling zone is frwakin ugly man :banghead
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I think our recruiting focussing on speed will help because it will help our players run through the zone
At the end of the day it's still 18 on 18, there will be free space to move into, it's just a matter of getting there
A few more skillful players in the side would be nice
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I would have been interested to see how we handled that same game conditions at the 'G. I think that with the added space we may have found it easier to move through and find room to run.
How many games are we playing at smaller gound this year and against what opponents? I think it looks like every team will use a zone of some description so the more we play at bigger grounds the better for us IMHO.
Stripes
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I'm not too worried about the zone. Sure it looks ugly and makes football less of a spectacle but from a selfish Richmond perspective I think we are better placed to beat it than most others. Last year we used pace - run and carry - to get through the (somewhat pioneering) zone of the team that won a flag and this year many sides will try to emulate that zoning. Trouble with that is that most other sides aren't as good as Hawthorn and by applying a zone they will set themselves up for a fall. Our team of 5 years ago is a prime example of a team trying to write a 'gameplan cheque' that our skillset couldn't cash. This will bring a number of sides undone this year also. On to us - we already know we can match it and beat it - so far this PRE-season we haven't looked fantastic in doing that but let's consider that:
a. we are deliberately underdone - that is patently obvious,
b. we have played each game with a significant percentage of fringe players and kids, and
c. we have played under rules that are diametrically opposed to the method we employ to get around the zone - the short little chip kicks until we are in a position to run and carry.
Come the ACTUAL season I am very, very confident we will fare better than most in dealing with this new 'beast' and frankly, I look at it as a positive for our team, not a negative, because we will win games others won't due to their inability to counter it. As for a negative for football in general - well that's a different thing entirely.
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Hope you're right Smokey! I'm currently watching the Essendon v Lions game on the TV and haven't seen the zone employed to the same extent as last nights game which I see as a positive. Has anyone else seen whether either team are using it?
I agree regarding the NAB cup rules and our method to beat the zone. We did use short kicks to cut our way through the zone plus backwards kicks in our defence to 'lure' Hawthorns forwards out of position and create space. Both these methods can not be used at the moment.
Just hope with a full strength team, H&A rules and more games on bigger games we will find going a bit easier verus the 'Ugly Monster'.
Stripes
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The Essendon-Lions game was a shocker from the bits I saw. It made our skill level on Thursday night look good.
The handball stats have gone through the roof this preseason. It's ridiculous. The only time sides have switched back to more kicking than handballing is when the opposition stops applying any real pressure. If there's pressure then the sideways handball becomes chronic. I blame the silly new rules. The 20m kick means it is riskier to kick so handball becomes a safer option. Also the rushed behind rule means teams have to handball their way out of defence which requires more numbers in the back half. With the old rule you could knock it through then get a quick kick-in that would travel 40-50m. With Geelong since 2007 we started to get a good brand of footy being played again but now we are seeing this rubbish over-handball again. I'm hoping it's only preseason garbage and things settle back down again once the real stuff starts and clubs start showing their hands as far as tactics and playing their best sides and players.
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Gee, maybe Ratten had a point.
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What the zones do mean is elite footskills are required. Anyone who is a dodgy kick will be found out quickly. We may see this in future drafting decisions.
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What the zones do mean is elite footskills are required. Anyone who is a dodgy kick will be found out quickly. We may see this in future drafting decisions.
Kicking, handball and decision making are vital in today's game.
The most interesting aspect of the rolling zone is that beating it requires brain and skill.
Do you kick your way around it or try and run through it with handball?
Mick McGuane on SEN made an interesting observation about kicking outside the zone via the boundary line - this requires elite kicking skills.
The major downside is that this development is another excuse to avoid the contest - marking or otherwise.
Through luck or design, we are filled with players who should be able to work through the zone.
Our list has the speed and tactical coaching ability to overcome it but do we have the skill and on field decision making execution to deliver?
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Zone?
Rolling Zone?
What are they seriously?
does the 'Zones' occur when we kick a point and try to keep it in our Forward 50?
and when the ball is in our Forward 50, we apply the 'Zone'?
i believe they way you beat the 'Zone' is if players like Jayden Post can take marks in the Forward 50!
stuff SHORT KICKS, AND KICK LONG TO TALL TALENTED PLAYERS WHO CAN TAKE MARKS LIKE JAYDEN POST!
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What the zones do mean is elite footskills are required. Anyone who is a dodgy kick will be found out quickly. We may see this in future drafting decisions.
What are you talking about MT. We may see it in future drafting?
We should be seeing that now FFS. The problem with our club and has always been the problem is our foot skills.
I remember reading an article by Al Clarkson a few years back and it read "If you can't kick or tackle then you wont be at our Football club"
Surprise surprise they are 2 areas which we continually fail year in year out
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The thing about being a quality kick is that a player needs to get his hands on it FIRST.
That the downfall of list cloggers like Meyer, they do not run to the right position or within the hot zones to attract the pill as a viable option.
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Football is abit crap these days, sadly.
This handball sideways/backwards crap, don't kick to contest, netball, running bollocks game is ugly to watch.
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Clubs to adopt Hawks' zone tactics
Mark Stevens | March 02, 2009
BRACE yourself for Punt Rd style football.
The traffic jam between the 50m arcs might just match the 5pm crawl past the Cricketer's Arms. The teams skilful enough to safely weave their way through the congestion will thrive.
Those who can't will wilt and end up a candidate for road rage.
Melbourne coach Dean Bailey is preparing himself for unprecedented numbers through the middle of the ground.
"There's going to be a lot of play between the arcs. There's going to be a lot of counter-attacks and a lot of turnover between the arcs," Bailey told the Herald Sun.
"That's the most congested area."
The opening games of the pre-season have highlighted the "follow the leader" push to adopt the rolling zone perfected by Hawthorn.
And, for the most part, it hasn't been pretty.
Inside-50 entries and goals are obviously a massive part of the AFL's entertainment package.
The evidence so far suggests both of those sexy elements of the game will be significantly down as teams get better at building walls between the arcs to defend.
Teams are being forced to over-possess the ball to try to find a way through the traffic.
Handballs have gone up considerably. Total disposals are up, too. But contested possession is down.
So the problem is obvious: More meaningless ball use between the arcs for less inside-50 entries.
More junk footy. More for the traditionalists who love long, direct footy to bleat about.
Matthew Knights has spoken out about the threat of a rash of low-scoring footy. Other coaches are concerned about the direction the game is headed, but have thus far kept their views private.
It has become a talking point in the industry in recent weeks.
The Bulldogs, renowned as free-wheeling entertainers, could manage only five goals against St Kilda in a practice match on Friday.
The Dogs were forced to overuse handball and when they kicked it, committed 31 clangers. Most of the errors came in that congested area Bailey points to.
Asked about the game not being pretty, Lyon said: "I think it's where footy's gone a bit.
"I watched a bit of Richmond-Collingwood. Everyone's pressing more, there's more zone football and it's forcing more possession.
"Everyone's still trying to crack the code."
Players have never been fitter. Interchange rotations have never been higher.
That means more fresh players capable of getting to contests and plugging gaps.
At times, it looks like there are too many players on the field. It is extreme, yes, but should we trial the old VFA rule of 16-a-side and drop the wingers?
At least there would be more space for intuitive, direct football.
Bailey believes it will be easier to score once teams get inside 50. The hard part will be getting it past the paint.
"The clubs that can dissect between the arcs the best will, No.1, go inside 50 more often, and No.2, therefore score more often. There's no doubt about that," Bailey said.
"Teams when they go inside are probably scoring more efficiently."
But the lack of entries means a lack of action on the scoreboard.
Eight teams played in practice games on the weekend. Only three could kick more than nine goals.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,25124292-19742,00.html
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Zone?
Rolling Zone?
What are they seriously?
does the 'Zones' occur when we kick a point and try to keep it in our Forward 50?
and when the ball is in our Forward 50, we apply the 'Zone'?
The Clarkson cluster is having a 15-man zone that clogs up the midfield especially when the opposition are trying to come out of their backline.
Defensive 50: X X X
Between arcs: X X X X
X X X X
X X X X
X X X
Forward 50: -
So the Hawks are quite happy for you to have the ball in your backline as your only choice is to either risk going through it where you are outnumbered or you switch to the other opposite stuff trying to outflank the zone to which the whole 15-man zone just moves across preventing you from bypassing it anyway.
To get through the zone you either need precise footskills trying to pinpoint teammates in the gaps (very risky) or you try to run and carry and handball with numbers running and supporting from behind. If you have long kicks in your side some players try to torpedo their way over the top of the zone (Newy with his kick-ins). We combined the latter two strategies successfully against Hawthorn in round 20 last year plus it was one of our better footskill days which helped as we didn't make too many turnovers to hurt us the other way.
What's been worse about this preseason series is this zone has been pushed back into the defensive 80 so it's almost like the old flooding of the Swans 3-4 years ago. So teams are creating turnovers in their back-half but then have no one to kick to up forward so they rely heavily on a mass of handball to work the ball forward until they can get some numbers inside their forward 50. It's almost soccer/rugby/basketball with handball. It's only when a team gets a stuff can they move the ball by foot and score easily before the opposition cluster zone is set.
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Interesting comments by Healy in the today's Herald-Sun. He mentions the importance of Richo.
Copy Cats to counter cluster
Jon Anderson | March 03, 2009
AFL coaching staff should look beyond last year's Grand Final scoreboard in an effort to counter the ugly brand of football that's been served up in the NAB Cup.
That's the view of 1988 Brownlow medallist Gerard Healy, who says the 2009 trend of copying Hawthorn's rolling zone is a "sheep mentality".
"Many of the coaches and their assistants are desperate to replicate the rolling zone, but from where I sat Geelong broke Hawthorn's cluster in last year's Grand Final," said AFL Hall of Fame member Healy.
"How many times did the Cats get the ball inside 50m?
"Sixty three, which would suggest to me they smashed the rolling zone, but stuffed up because they couldn't kick straight.
Healy sees the game as changing in the sense that entries inside the forward 50m are no longer as crucial, rather possession once in that zone.
To that end he believes we may see sides such as Geelong employ some of their A-grade midfielders in the forward 50m.
"West Coast did it successfully with Ben Cousins and Geelong has players such as Gary Ablett and Jimmy Bartel, who could do the same," Healy said.
"The other alternative for teams trying to counter a rolling zone is to kick into forward space and rely on a player such as Matthew Richardson to run onto the ball."
Full article at:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,25130028-19742,00.html
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What's been worse about this preseason series is this zone has been pushed back into the defensive 80 so it's almost like the old flooding of the Swans 3-4 years ago. So teams are creating turnovers in their back-half but then have no one to kick to up forward so they rely heavily on a mass of handball to work the ball forward until they can get some numbers inside their forward 50.
Yeah it was funny vs the Pies when on two occasions their player broke free of our players and was closest to goal the only problem being that he was about 80 metres out with no one to pass it to. I forget the players name but on one occasion he just booted it to no one and Thursty cleaned it up
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What's been worse about this preseason series is this zone has been pushed back into the defensive 80 so it's almost like the old flooding of the Swans 3-4 years ago. So teams are creating turnovers in their back-half but then have no one to kick to up forward so they rely heavily on a mass of handball to work the ball forward until they can get some numbers inside their forward 50.
Yeah it was funny vs the Pies when on two occasions their player broke free of our players and was closest to goal the only problem being that he was about 80 metres out with no one to pass it to. I forget the players name but on one occasion he just booted it to no one and Thursty cleaned it up
Dayne Beams.
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O'Bree also did it IIRC. He was all by himself in the middle of the ground and there were no Pies ahead of him so he just said stuff this and just kicked the ball as far as he could to about 4 Tigers waiting :wallywink.
Paul Hamilton in today's Age is right. Sure it's horrible to watch all this handball but it's only preseason and it'll sort itself out once the real stuff starts and we play under the normal proper rules.
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The Dome's dimensions enable it to appear very congested at times.
I think once we get back to the "G" these things will sort themselves out.
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What's been worse about this preseason series is this zone has been pushed back into the defensive 80 so it's almost like the old flooding of the Swans 3-4 years ago. So teams are creating turnovers in their back-half but then have no one to kick to up forward so they rely heavily on a mass of handball to work the ball forward until they can get some numbers inside their forward 50.
Yeah it was funny vs the Pies when on two occasions their player broke free of our players and was closest to goal the only problem being that he was about 80 metres out with no one to pass it to. I forget the players name but on one occasion he just booted it to no one and Thursty cleaned it up
Dayne Beams.
pity he plays for those scums because he will be a gun this kid
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The Dome's dimensions enable it to appear very congested at times.
I think once we get back to the "G" these things will sort themselves out.
Except when we go to the SCG, man I hate that ground (not as much as the Swans supporters or team though ;D)
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The Dome's dimensions enable it to appear very congested at times.
I think once we get back to the "G" these things will sort themselves out.
Except when we go to the SCG, man I hate that ground (not as much as the Swans supporters or team though ;D)
Why do you hate that ground? Because we get smacked every time we play there?
What i would like to see this year is for us to get within 6 goals of the swans, instead of putting up the usual insipid performances every time we travel to the SCG.
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Why do you hate that ground? Because we get smacked every time we play there?
Yes partly that, as I live in Sydney I only see one game a year live and it is really crappy coming out of there after getting belted every year.
But also because the size and shape of the ground suits a slower heavier bodied side. IMO it allowed the Swans to gain advantage over other sides not because of skill or class but because they utilised the flood on a ground that suited their recruitment of certain types of footballers.
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Rolling zone stumps AFL Laws of the Game panel
Michelangelo Rucci | March 04, 2009
THE AFL is fighting a losing battle to remove the ugly spectacle of rolling zones from the competition, a key lawmaker admitted.
After being forced to make constant rule changes in the past decade to stop tactics such as flooding ruining the look of football, AFL Laws of the Game committee member Andrew McKay yesterday conceded "zone football" had his panel stumped.
"We've been thinking about that for a year, 18 months," McKay said.
"And it's a tricky one.
"We've tried. We've put our heads together, but we're not exactly sure (how to beat the zone).
"We hope the game sorts it out rather than by making changes to the rules."
Rolling zones or clusters are where coaches take players out of their traditional positions to crowd the area around the ball, making it difficult for the opposition to penetrate its attack.
Hawthorn had great success with the tactic last season.
And the Hawks' ability to frustrate the league's highest-scoring team Geelong with the ploy in last year's Grand Final has made rolling zones a favoured tactic of AFL coaches.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,25135626-19742,00.html
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Rules tinkering is backfiring: Roos
Michael Cowley, Sydney | March 4, 2009
SYDNEY coach Paul Roos says the AFL's desire to speed up the game by continually tinkering with rules each season has backfired and been the catalyst behind what critics are calling ugly, defence-based, football.
After the rolling-zone defence proved successful for Hawthorn in last year's grand final win over Geelong, many teams have adopted a similar strategy in the pre-season.
It was only four years ago that Roos's team was being tagged with a similar moniker by chief executive Andrew Demetriou but then because they played hard, man-on-man, defensive-style football.
"It is good for a change that we're not being called ugly," Roos said jokingly. "The ironic thing is that the two grand finals that were the most one-on-one contests and the most physical, and with no flooding and no zones, were the '05 and '06 ones and we were criticised in 2005 for ugly footy.
"My concern is some of the rule changes are starting to catch up with us a little bit. In a sense, the lawmakers have got what they want, but that was my point all along, you had better be careful what you wish for because this is what you're going to get. A lot of the rule changes have contributed to what we are starting to see now.
"With all the rule changes it has lent itself to zoning and flooding, and that's probably the disappointing thing, and now people are talking about changing more rules to stop what's going on now. A number of people have said all along, let the game evolve, but unfortunately they have tampered with the rules, which has now meant there is greater incentive for zoning and that's the frustrating thing.
"Blokes now have less time with the footy. Three or four years you could have 20 seconds to make a decision then they brought it down to 15 seconds, then to 10 seconds. You just haven't got time now. You haven't got time to go back and take your kick and hit a target. Basically, the ball is in motion so often because the umpires are calling play on so quickly.
"And the kicking backwards (which is now play on) is a disaster and falls right into the trap of the zoning teams all the time. Then you have the rushed behind rule (a free kick is now awarded for intentionally rushed behinds), you can't rush it through, so what are teams going to do? If you could rush it through, teams are more likely to go man on man, but you can't rush it through so they just set up in their zone and let you kick it back in.
"If you ask me I'd wind the clock back and change all the rules back to what they were, but they are not going to do that, so I think you've got to weather the storm and see what happens."
Roos says his side will not use the tactic, because they are "not set up for it as a team".
He agreed with Collingwood's Mick Malthouse and Essendon mentor Matthew Knights that "you can't change a style based on what someone else does if you can't deliver the style".
"Some clubs will do it I suspect it will be about 50-50, eight teams will zone and eight teams won't but what every club will do is try to find a way through it and we've been working really hard to find a way through it," Roos said.
http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/rules-tinkering-is-backfiring-roos/2009/03/03/1235842411657.html