One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Jackstar on September 21, 2004, 10:08:36 PM
-
Looking at what players scored votes in the Brownlow last night makes me think of what a mess our list really is and how much we fall in love and over pay ordinary footballers.
We had a total of 7 players who scored votes.Pathetic !
36 Votes in total were scored with Richo and Brown contibuting half of that.Now for those sticking up for Ottens who is massively overpaid should take a closer look and give an opinion from the head and not the heart.
Yep, you guessed it , NO VOTES.
Other Richmond champs who didnt get vote are Rodan, Krakouer, Chaffey, Kellaway,Pettifer, Stafford,Fiora,Hall,Hyde,Newman,Fleming, Zantuck and dont forget Dr Who ( Gaspar)
Now you can see why we are where we are. ;)
Have a good look at the other clubs and who got votes.
-
Great topic Jackstar.
Even though the Brownlow isn't the best gauge for a players worth, there is no denying that we overrate our players and i'm glad that the Brownlow medal votes we recieved backs that up.
In particualr it was telling with Ottens, who for all the good statistics he had, failed to have any impact in turning matches.
Also not surprising to see other overrated players like Krakouer not get a vote.
The worrying thing is that if there were votes for the best ten players on the ground, the players you listed probably still wouldn't have registered a vote!
-
The Ottens situation is very interesting. The media tend to build him up and the public grab hold of it and run with it. His stats in regards to hit-outs are absolute crap as they go to NO advanatage.
How many contested marks did he take this year, my 2yo could tell you that and she can only count to six maybe seven with a bit of prompting.
There lies our first BIG problem
We overate our players, that for sure.
John F, I take on board that the Brownlow mighten be the best guage although over the past 3-5 years, the best player has usually won the award.
And also it is pretty unbiased , unlike the media awards ;)
-
There's no question we overrate our players. The amount we have payed some of them is a clear sign of that. However given we are the wooden spooners who won only 4 games out of 22 then it's not surprising we only had 7 vote getters. Just an obvious outcome IMHO. We had no one who was consistently outstanding in a poor side when you look at Scotty West who got 20 votes in a side that won only one more game than us.
If you look at our games the only ruckman to get votes was Everitt in rounds 6 and 21. Ironically round 6 was probably Otto's best game of the year and IMO he and Everitt came out even. They were both in the best players for each team. Otto was out injured along with Stafford by round 21.
Alternatively the votes to our opposition continually went to their midfielders and key forwards which comes back not surprisingly to our lack of quality and depth in our midfield as well as weakness in key backline posts.
I still have alot of time for Otto as IMO he still has the talent to be a top player. He needs a decent coach who can get the best out of him and won't tolerate below standard efforts (unlike Spud) and that will build (as opposed to Spud who destroyed) the team structures around him to get him there. He also IMO needs to be played in the forward line with only occasional stints in the ruck. Thank you Terry!
-
When you've had someone in control of our list for the last 5 years or whatever who's done what he's done, I'm not surprised we're down the bottom with no Brownlow votes.
I did expect more from some players - but injury and playing with a woeful team has meant their performance degenerates to the same rabble or hardly likely to get a vote even if they played ok.
I can't remember who got our votes - but they were mainly Bowden, Richo, Brown and Johnston - all our older players. That makes it a worse situation IMO.
Makes me think be a long time before we win another medal.
Brownlow Medal voting must have changed a bit though over the years. I remember in years gone past perennial cellar dwellers in the Saints, Dogs, South Melbourne etc players all doing well. Could be wrong, but how could players from eras where a team was on the bottom poll well in the Brownlow.
MT, do you have a list of Brownlow medallists and where their teams finished for the year? I'm thinking of the likes of Skilton, Bedford, Schulz, Murray, Ross Smith. They might have been higher up the ladder and my memory is blurred, but i think that many of the Brownlow medallists came from clubs who were near the bottom of the ladder or close. Just wonder why.
-
I was actually surprised at how many votes we got...considering how pathetic our games were. To be ranked in the top three on field when quite often we were lucky to put in half a games effort was amazing. Credit to Joel Browny and Richo for their efforts.
That said though, I agree that we rate our players too highly. Bring on the trades...
-
Here you go froars :cheers
Skilton (Sth Melb)
1959 - 9th
1963 - 11th
1968 - 9th
Bedford (Sth Melb) 1970 - 4th
Schulz (Foots) 1960 - 10th
Murray (Fitz) 1969 - 10th
Ross Smith (St K) 1967 - 5th
All the above were in a 12 team comp.
In the last 9 years only Crawford (99) won the medal playing for a side that didn't make the finals and the Hawks finished 9th that year out of 16 teams.
Source: AFL 2004
-
Thanks MT - have you got a link for that pls?
-
I got that info from the AFL history/stats book (AFL 2004) that was available preseason.
A link to the brownlow winners is:
http://stats.rleague.com/afl/brownlow/brownlow_idx.html
froars you should be able to find where each club finished on the ladder on that website as well.
-
Mucho :)
-
Good players are good players. Guys like West and Ricciutto would poll votes even if they played for Richmond. Guys like Ottens won't poll votes anywhere becuase he is OVERRATED!
-
And that is why when the trade deal is done with Ottens, we mighten think we get much back in return eg Saddington.
Unfortunately the truth hurts.
At least this will allow us to attract the best uncontracted player now.
On Scott West, he is a very good example of a player who performs every week and is worth every cent. Unlike ,most players on our list !
-
Aint that the truth......We kept guys on our list for being good clubmen. Re: Nathan Bower spending how many years on our list.
We do become too attached....instead of hammering players we embrace them and fail to see the fact that (for example) a guy like Otto cant win one hitout.....or a guy like Ray Hall struggles to take contested marks and is key-position....or a guy like Fleming cant hit a target.
We find an excuse everytime......good bloke, hes injured, but he tries hard, no support...and the list goes on.
Top thread!!!
-
(for example) a guy like Otto cant win one hitout.....
We find an excuse everytime......good bloke, hes injured, but he tries hard, no support...and the list goes on.
Top thread!!!
nah your wrong there!! ;D
Otto wins plenty of hitouts but not one of them hit our midfielders or are placed to our midfielders advantage. When was the last time we saw Otto thump a centre bounce 20 meters in our favour?
Nottens the limp wristed w@nker
-
Sorry to drag old topics back up to the top, but I have been away and have some catch up to do lol. This topic heading is one of my BIGGEST faults. I constantly fall in,love with the hero of the day, and hold on to the hope that they did it once/ twice, they can do it again...cant they?????
Then again, I'm not the one who hires and fires thank god (or we'd have a team full of the best looking duds in the AFL lol) ::)
-
And thats the reason we are on the bottom 2JD
-
You mean it's my fault!!!! :o
-
Yep, all your fault 2JD lol
Nothing to do with recruiting hacks and appointing pathetic coaches - it's all YOUR FAULT lol ;)
-
"We overate and fall in love with players" .... and then we find out they are still going out with the same sheila from years past ... you'd think some people would learn :banghead
-
lol Julz, as long as she sticks with him when he's old and riddled with arthritis and complaining non stop about the pain. Best to stick with the fantasy, age can be a cruel thing. I mean, look at David Soul (Hutch) I'm so glad I didnt marry him when I was in love with him lol
-
Great topic Jackstar.
Even though the Brownlow isn't the best gauge for a players worth, there is no denying that we overrate our players and i'm glad that the Brownlow medal votes we recieved backs that up.
In particualr it was telling with Ottens, who for all the good statistics he had, failed to have any impact in turning matches.
Also not surprising to see other overrated players like Krakouer not get a vote.
The worrying thing is that if there were votes for the best ten players on the ground, the players you listed probably still wouldn't have registered a vote!
The brownlow is not the best gauge, but it is a much better measure of an AFL footballer than a club's internal B&F. How many brownlow's did campbell win again?
-
Fair point 1980 but in those years Campbell won it, not many others deserved it. In sayin that I agree with you but Im just a Campbell mark so I kinda get offended when guys hammer him yet we allow guys like Bowden to win B&Fs yet get congratulated.
A team is good when you have the majority of players beating their direct opponent......for me Richo did that consistently all year yet Bowden wins it.
Thats how I try to look at things....how consistently beat their opponent. Sadly, not many.
-
Great topic Jackstar.
Even though the Brownlow isn't the best gauge for a players worth, there is no denying that we overrate our players and i'm glad that the Brownlow medal votes we recieved backs that up.
In particualr it was telling with Ottens, who for all the good statistics he had, failed to have any impact in turning matches.
Also not surprising to see other overrated players like Krakouer not get a vote.
The worrying thing is that if there were votes for the best ten players on the ground, the players you listed probably still wouldn't have registered a vote!
The brownlow is not the best gauge, but it is a much better measure of an AFL footballer than a club's internal B&F. How many brownlow's did campbell win again?
Come off it 1980! He has won as many Brownlows as Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey and Gary Ablett combined!
Now when you have an award where players like Shane Woewodin, Shane Crawford, Scott Wynd are recipients and the game's best go home empty handed, you know its not the best guage of a player's worth!
I've said this before and i'll say it again, look how many votes Shane Woewodin has recieved in comparison to say someone like Paul Licuria. Woewodin would have double the votes at least. And yet he's not half the player Licuria is!
Or to take an example closer to home, lol, look how many votes in the Brownlow Matthew Knights got compared to Campbell, and WE ALL KNOW who the better player is.
Notwhithstanding this argument, the original point stands, we overrate and fall in love with players after pulling off a few good performances. In Brad's case, the Brownlow votes he got coincided with what he is really worth.
-
Oh and another thing, the reason I think Best and Fairests are a better gauge of a players worth than the Brownlow is that:
1. Umpies are fuched in the head
2. How can umpires decide who's been the best on ground when their job is to officiate and concentrate on not making wrong decisions?
3. You can be 4th or 5th best on ground 20 times a year and it won't show up in the brownlow count
4. Coaches track what their players do much better than what umpires can
5. Coaches are more adept at judging who done what was best for the team, whereas umpires are on the look out for who is the most flashy or individually brilliant
6. B&F's reward consistency not just a few good efforts that stand out - you could play 7 or 8 good games for the year and win the brownlow despite not doing anything else in the other games, you couldn't do that and win a B&F count.
-
Oh and another thing, the reason I think Best and Fairests are a better gauge of a players worth than the Brownlow is that:
1. Umpies are fuched in the head
2. How can umpires decide who's been the best on ground when their job is to officiate and concentrate on not making wrong decisions?
3. You can be 4th or 5th best on ground 20 times a year and it won't show up in the brownlow count
4. Coaches track what their players do much better than what umpires can
5. Coaches are more adept at judging who done what was best for the team, whereas umpires are on the look out for who is the most flashy or individually brilliant
6. B&F's reward consistency not just a few good efforts that stand out - you could play 7 or 8 good games for the year and win the brownlow despite not doing anything else in the other games, you couldn't do that and win a B&F count.
Very true JF. You look at every club's B & F and you'll find their best player for the year wins it...regardless of what OM21 says about Joel.
You could actually poll 1 vote in every round which would give you 22 votes and yet most years 22 votes won't win you the medal. So the umpires can deem you one of the best three players every week and you don't win....how fair's that?
-
Great topic Jackstar.
Even though the Brownlow isn't the best gauge for a players worth, there is no denying that we overrate our players and i'm glad that the Brownlow medal votes we recieved backs that up.
In particualr it was telling with Ottens, who for all the good statistics he had, failed to have any impact in turning matches.
Also not surprising to see other overrated players like Krakouer not get a vote.
The worrying thing is that if there were votes for the best ten players on the ground, the players you listed probably still wouldn't have registered a vote!
The brownlow is not the best gauge, but it is a much better measure of an AFL footballer than a club's internal B&F. How many brownlow's did campbell win again?
Come off it 1980! He has won as many Brownlows as Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey and Gary Ablett combined!
You cant compare Wayne Campbell to Matthews, Ablett or Carey. For one thing, they could never win a brownlow because they were always suspended. Campbell never gets suspended for no other reason than he's never gone in for a hard ball in his entire career.
Anyway, I just posted this cos I luv it when you get all worked up about him.
-
Very true JF. You look at every club's B & F and you'll find their best player for the year wins it...regardless of what OM21 says about Joel.
If Bowden was better than Richo, Ill go hee.....I dont think Richo got beaten more than twice all year.
-
It was difficult to tell if Richo bet his opponent since it was hard to tell which of the six opponents on him all at once at most times were his direct one ;D :-\.
-
It was difficult to tell if Richo bet his opponent since it was hard to tell which of the six opponents on him all at once at most times were his direct one ;D :-\.
So true. Surely he must get the award for having the most opponents against him at one time.
-
You cant compare Wayne Campbell to Matthews, Ablett or Carey. For one thing, they could never win a brownlow because they were always suspended. Campbell never gets suspended for no other reason than he's never gone in for a hard ball in his entire career.
Anyway, I just posted this cos I luv it when you get all worked up about him.
LOL, I can never resist....
True, Campbell isn't in the same stratosphere as Matthews, Ablett or Carey and he'll never get close to winning a Brownlow, but he is still a very good-borderline-great player and to say he doesn't go in for the hard ball is crap! Have a look at the amount of clearances he used to get despite being the number one player tagged, especially from around '97 to '02.
I put Campbell in the same category of players such as Darryn Creswell, Adam Simpson and Cameron Ling. Solid players who do the job every week without much fanfare, but who are highly regarded and respected within the club they play(ed) for. These guys will never win a Brownlow, or come close to it, but they are all extremely good players at the very least.
-
How much pee taking is in that post?
-
You cant compare Wayne Campbell to Matthews, Ablett or Carey. For one thing, they could never win a brownlow because they were always suspended. Campbell never gets suspended for no other reason than he's never gone in for a hard ball in his entire career.
Anyway, I just posted this cos I luv it when you get all worked up about him.
I put Campbell in the same category of players such as Darryn Creswell, Adam Simpson and Cameron Ling. Solid players who do the job every week without much fanfare, but who are highly regarded and respected within the club they play(ed) for.
Mate, the topic of this thread is that we ovverate our players. For me, Campbell is maybe not the best, but certainly a good example of how we overrate our players. He wouldnt be in the top 10 players of any of the top 4 sides.
Clearances? Dont make me laugh. Kicks straight up in the air. Inventor of the quick throw of the ball on the boot, because he's always been poo scared of being tackled. If he was Sri Lankan, he's be called a chucker.
-
The only recent player that wasn't overated was Knights - a true champion ;D
-
Clearances? Dont make me laugh. Kicks straight up in the air. Inventor of the quick throw of the ball on the boot, because he's always been poo scared of being tackled. If he was Sri Lankan, he's be called a chucker.
Mutiah Campbellitharan :rollin
-
Mate, the topic of this thread is that we ovverate our players. For me, Campbell is maybe not the best, but certainly a good example of how we overrate our players. He wouldnt be in the top 10 players of any of the top 4 sides.
Clearances? Dont make me laugh. Kicks straight up in the air. Inventor of the quick throw of the ball on the boot, because he's always been poo scared of being tackled. If he was Sri Lankan, he's be called a chucker.
Campbell in his prime would easily make the top ten if not top 5 players of any top 4 side. Didn't Matthews rate him as the best onballer in the comp about a decade ago? (That's what I call overrating!) Look at his credentials outside of the Richmond team, he has got 2 All-Australian guernseys, has played the cross-breed game with the Irish on numerous occasions and has represented Victoria. Looks like Richmond aren't the only ones that rate him.
Not to mention that he is one of the top 5 posession winners over the last decade!!! And before you say his disposals are all crap, go take a look at some stats on the amount of clangers he has. Lower than the likes of Buckley, Hird, Voss, Ricciuto etc.
As to your point about the clearances, it always makes me laugh when people talk about Campbell's quick kicks out of the packs in a derogative way. You should be praising him on having the reflexes to clear the ball so quickly!!! If you've ever cared to notice, pack situations aren't exactly the places where you are free to take your time. Moving the ball forward in any way possible is a victory.
If you want to talk about overrating, go and have a look at some of the money the players at our club have earned and the results they have brought. Campbell for nearly a decade has finished inside the top 3 at the Richmond B&F. For results like that he should be getting paid twice what the likes of Richo, Nottens, Knights, Daffy are/were.
-
:bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow
The 2004 Post of the Year goes to JohnF...............stuffen brilliant.
-
Campbell has always been a maligned player.
He played with serious injuries all year and you didnt here any excuses from him
-
:bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow
The 2004 Post of the Year goes to JohnF...............effen brilliant.
At least I'm preaching to one of the devout :thumbsup
-
I luv a Weenie bashing session where John always comes to his rescue lol
-
:bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow :bow
The 2004 Post of the Year goes to JohnF...............effen brilliant.
Ditto! :thumbsup