One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: WA Tiger on October 27, 2009, 01:16:01 AM
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Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
Mark Stevens From: Herald Sun Tue Oct 27
ESSENDON is yet to re-sign experienced leaders Andrew Welsh and Adam McPhee a month after losing skipper Matthew Lloyd to retirement.
Both Welsh and McPhee are known to be disappointed at the length of the contracts put to them by the club.
Essendon has offered two-year deals, but Welsh and McPhee view the negotiations as the most important of their careers and have been pushing for three years.
The Bombers were prepared to offer a three-year contract to Mark Williams to lure him from Hawthorn during the trade period.
Collingwood has shown interest in Welsh, who like McPhee has the option of nominating for the national or pre-season drafts if a deal can not be struck.
Welsh, 26, will return from Bali later this week for discussions with his management as a deadline on a decision approaches.
Collingwood remains keen on adding Luke Ball to its list despite missing out on him on the final day of trade week.
But if Ball decides to remain at St Kilda, or agrees to cross to Melbourne as pick No. 1 in the pre-season draft, Welsh is believed to be appealing to the Magpies as a potential Plan B.
Collingwood has had preliminary talks with Welsh's management. His manager Dan Richardson, of Elite Sports Properties, remained tight-lipped yesterday.
"All I can say is he is yet to re-sign," Richardson said.
Welsh and McPhee are members of Essendon's leadership group.
The Bombers can ill-afford to lose players of their experience so soon after farewelling Lloyd and another popular veteran, Scott Lucas.
McPhee's manager Paul Connors has been away on holidays and talks are expected to resume soon.
At 27, McPhee is looking to shore up his future. This will be his last opportunity for a long-term contract.
It is understood there were some raised eyebrows at Windy Hill when the Bombers decided to reward Williams with a three-year deal given that at 26 he is in the same age bracket as Welsh and McPhee.
While other names such as Daniel Bradshaw and Luke Ball have dominated talk as the pool of experienced players up for grabs grows before the national and pre-season drafts, Welsh's name has slipped through the cracks.
If they decide to move, Welsh and McPhee have until November 10 to nominate for the national draft or December 1 to put their name into the pre-season draft pool.
McPhee was an All-Australian and best-and-fairest winner in 2004 and recaptured some of that form this year, finishing ninth in the club champion award.
He has played 167 games for the Bombers and Fremantle.
Welsh bravely returned from a broken leg suffered in a pre-season practice game this season and managed 11 games.
He has played 145 games with the club since he was drafted in 2001 and in 2008 emerged as one of the best run-with players in the competition.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/andrew-welsh-adam-mcphee-may-roll-dice-in-draft/story-e6frf9jf-1225791493766
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Not that we want or need to be but isn't it funny how we have not been linked to anyone in the PSD, even though we have pick 2??????? I mean Ball, really if he is available we should look at him IMO and McPhee wouldn't be bad either. Just goes to show the wheeling and dealing that clubs must do, like how does Bradshaw just pick the Swans and expect to get there?? Stevens wanted to go to the Pies years ago and the Blues said they would take him if he entered the draft and look what happened. Even if the player nominates for the national draft they could still be picked up before they get to the club they have elected.
I don't get it sometimes.
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Sydney can't afford to bottom out. The AFL needs them to keep topping up to stay competitive and keep interest up there. With pick 5 in the PSD they just need the bottom 4 clubs who are all rebuilding via youth to bypass a 30 year old Bradshaw. As good as done. Bradshaw's family is from Wodonga IIRC so Sydney isn't too far away.
It's going to be interesting times at Bomberland next year by the look it. Is this a sign of the rumours saying there are differences between coach and certain senior players or perhaps just a sign that players are getting ahead of themselves after one flukey year (making finals with just 10 wins) and then demanding 3 year contracts. The AFL seem to be doing the Bombers no favours with next year's draw.
ps. Please Richmond do not go anywhere near McPhee. We have enough guys who have brain implosions on a footy field.
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Welsh could be tempting. Who knows, we might even use 2 PSD picks.
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Mcphee=Dingley Tip
Welsh=Commericial Road
ill pass on both, thanks
WAT would be so excited at the thought right.
2 more hacks, i mean players to possibly be available in the upcoming draft that we should go for
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Mcphee=Dingley Tip
Welsh=Commericial Road
ill pass on both, thanks
WAT would be so excited at the thought right.
2 more hacks, i mean players to possibly be available in the upcoming draft that we should go for
why would I be excited pecker head?? Just posting the story. Nice of you to pipe up, potty you still have no news on Richo. Looks like the media beat you again.... :whistle
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McPhee is all show and no substance. Will kick a miracle goal but have 4 stats in the same game. Have 25 stats and take 2 or 3 speckies against a side like Melbourne or Freo at the Dome and have less than 5 touches and look terrible against a Geelong St Kilda or Hawthorn. Very very overated. A list clogger and maybe Essendon realise that he has been in the system for 9 seasons.
Welsh well he is a bit of Commercial Road as you say Daniel, and a bit of Chapel St and Greville St as well , but I actually do not think he is a bad player. Very solid footballer with good skills and if he comes free in the PSD well I won't be too disappointed.
I tend to think that these boys will get their contracts at Essendon and are merely using the media to their advantage. As a best/worse case scenario whichever way you look at things will be one willstay and one will go. McPhee will be a PSD waste if he nominates for it and we pick him up. Would rather we passed.
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McPhee is all show and no substance. Will kick a miracle goal but have 4 stats in the same game. Have 25 stats and take 2 or 3 speckies against a side like Melbourne or Freo at the Dome and have less than 5 touches and look terrible against a Geelong St Kilda or Hawthorn. Very very overated. A list clogger and maybe Essendon realise that he has been in the system for 9 seasons.
Welsh well he is a bit of Commercial Road as you say Daniel, and a bit of Chapel St and Greville St as well , but I actually do not think he is a bad player. Very solid footballer with good skills and if he comes free in the PSD well I won't be too disappointed.
I tend to think that these boys will get their contracts at Essendon and are merely using the media to their advantage. As a best/worse case scenario whichever way you look at things will be one willstay and one will go. McPhee will be a PSD waste if he nominates for it and we pick him up. Would rather we passed.
Pass on Welsh, spends way too much time at Fog Bar and Boutique Nightclub in Greville Street ::) :cheers
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McPhee is all show and no substance. Will kick a miracle goal but have 4 stats in the same game. Have 25 stats and take 2 or 3 speckies against a side like Melbourne or Freo at the Dome and have less than 5 touches and look terrible against a Geelong St Kilda or Hawthorn. Very very overated. A list clogger and maybe Essendon realise that he has been in the system for 9 seasons.
Welsh well he is a bit of Commercial Road as you say Daniel, and a bit of Chapel St and Greville St as well , but I actually do not think he is a bad player. Very solid footballer with good skills and if he comes free in the PSD well I won't be too disappointed.
I tend to think that these boys will get their contracts at Essendon and are merely using the media to their advantage. As a best/worse case scenario whichever way you look at things will be one willstay and one will go. McPhee will be a PSD waste if he nominates for it and we pick him up. Would rather we passed.
Pass on Welsh, spends way too much time at Fog Bar and Boutique Nightclub in Greville Street ::) :cheers
and McPhee?
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McPhee has settled down abit.
Not a bad bloke actually out of football
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McPhee has settled down abit.
Not a bad bloke actually out of football
He still can't kick
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McPhee has settled down abit.
Not a bad bloke actually out of football
He still can't kick
And as Tucker said - he's a list clogger and basically crap.
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Bleating poofs. Pass.
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Still reckon McPhee could offer something for a couple of years, he was flying before his injury and he has played great footy since crossing from the Bombers. His second half or part of the season was also very good after the same injury mentioned above.
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Still reckon McPhee could offer something for a couple of years, he was flying before his injury and he has played great footy since crossing from the Bombers. His second half or part of the season was also very good after the same injury mentioned above.
What the ???
Did you watch one of his games in 04 and bought the album for the single ??
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Still reckon McPhee could offer something for a couple of years, he was flying before his injury and he has played great footy since crossing from the Bombers. His second half or part of the season was also very good after the same injury mentioned above.
What the ???
Did you watch one of his games in 04 and bought the album for the single ??
No, just been watching most of his footy actually, 04, rubbish, he has been very good since crossing from Freo (excluding his injury carrying games). Anyway thats my opinion and we won't take him so don't get too bent out of shape.. :thumbsup
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Still reckon McPhee could offer something for a couple of years, he was flying before his injury and he has played great footy since crossing from the Bombers. His second half or part of the season was also very good after the same injury mentioned above.
What the ???
Did you watch one of his games in 04 and bought the album for the single ??
No, just been watching most of his footy actually, 04, rubbish, he has been very good since crossing from Freo (excluding his injury carrying games). Anyway thats my opinion and we won't take him so don't get too bent out of shape.. :thumbsup
Yes sage
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Still reckon McPhee could offer something for a couple of years, he was flying before his injury and he has played great footy since crossing from the Bombers. His second half or part of the season was also very good after the same injury mentioned above.
What the ???
Did you watch one of his games in 04 and bought the album for the single ??
No, just been watching most of his footy actually, 04, rubbish, he has been very good since crossing from Freo (excluding his injury carrying games). Anyway thats my opinion and we won't take him so don't get too bent out of shape.. :thumbsup
Yes sage
What the??????
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McPhee is 27 and Welsh turns 27 in Feb. Not the age we'd be looking at to add to our list you would think.
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McPhee is 27 and Welsh turns 27 in Feb. Not the age we'd be looking at to add to our list you would think.
I don't think anyone on this site wants any player under the age 22 or under the age of 18 by the sounds of it, very hard to find ready made champions at that age with all the skills to take us to finals ... ::), but thats fine a few 150+ point whoopings and hindsight may come into play. Can't wait for the youth to come to the club dont worry about that but.......... we need the mix and I will keep saying it.
I will use one example for my reasoning, in all honesty Thursfield, Moore and McGuanne and even Rance have been bagged by many for underperforming. Now I ask you who was the onfield backline expert there to coach these guys when they were coming through... on the field (please dont be hypocrites and say Bowden) ?? Gasper, Graham and both Kellaways were either in the side while the previous mentioned players were in the Coburg side or they were all gone when our current backline started together. Give or take a bit of time but not much, yet most of the year our backline has failed...... gee wonder why!!
Around the ground other than the centre this has also occured, half back, half forward. Just my thoughts.
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If there is no one better in the PSD who do we take, we may as well take 1 of the 2. They may not be stars, but they are better than the 38th player on our list. Infact both would be in best 18 players if truth be told.
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McPhee is 27 and Welsh turns 27 in Feb. Not the age we'd be looking at to add to our list you would think.
I don't think anyone on this site wants any player under the age 22 or under the age of 18 by the sounds of it, very hard to find ready made champions at that age with all the skills to take us to finals ... ::), but thats fine a few 150+ point whoopings and hindsight may come into play. Can't wait for the youth to come to the club dont worry about that but.......... we need the mix and I will keep saying it.
I will use one example for my reasoning, in all honesty Thursfield, Moore and McGuanne and even Rance have been bagged by many for underperforming. Now I ask you who was the onfield backline expert there to coach these guys when they were coming through... on the field (please dont be hypocrites and say Bowden) ?? Gasper, Graham and both Kellaways were either in the side while the previous mentioned players were in the Coburg side or they were all gone when our current backline started together. Give or take a bit of time but not much, yet most of the year our backline has failed...... gee wonder why!!
Around the ground other than the centre this has also occured, half back, half forward. Just my thoughts.
We haven't had a +100 point whooping in over 2 years WAT - R6 2007 vs Geelong - and we aren't going to have any this year. And our backline is not a good example of your point - they have actually done a fair job in very trying circumstances - the blame should be fairly pointed at our midfield that have had zero defensive accountability up until now. If he lives up to his rhetoric then I expect that to change considerably under Hardwick.
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I don't think anyone on this site wants any player under the age 22 or under the age of 18 by the sounds of it, very hard to find ready made champions at that age with all the skills to take us to finals ... ::), but thats fine a few 150+ point whoopings and hindsight may come into play. Can't wait for the youth to come to the club dont worry about that but.......... we need the mix and I will keep saying it.
The cut-off maximum age would be 24. No one is saying they have to be kids but given we are 3-4 years at least away from playing finals we would want to pick up players who will still be in their prime by then. No use picking up a 27 year old now and find he's slowed down and near retirement in 3 years time.
I will use one example for my reasoning, in all honesty Thursfield, Moore and McGuanne and even Rance have been bagged by many for underperforming. Now I ask you who was the onfield backline expert there to coach these guys when they were coming through... on the field (please dont be hypocrites and say Bowden) ?? Gasper, Graham and both Kellaways were either in the side while the previous mentioned players were in the Coburg side or they were all gone when our current backline started together. Give or take a bit of time but not much, yet most of the year our backline has failed...... gee wonder why!!
Around the ground other than the centre this has also occured, half back, half forward. Just my thoughts.
The first 3 did okay in 2008 together as a young backline. We failed defensively this year mostly because there's little defensive pressure through the midfield and out of our forward line and our skill level is so atrocious that 3/4ers of opposition goals come directly from our turnovers :P. [Edit. beat me to it smokey]
We're a young side and even if Hardwick turns out to be a brilliant coach and teacher it's going to be a tough couple of years until our list rebuilds and matures. No point bringing in some temporary older players who are only good enough to carry us up to ninth and a late poor first pick which hinders our rebuild.
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I'd take Welsh in the PSD. Even if we only get 3/4 years he is a perfect support player alongside our plethora of kids until they come on. We have just had a massive exodus of experience and he will easily get a game in our 22 over the next few seasons until others are ready to surpass him.
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McPhee is 27 and Welsh turns 27 in Feb. Not the age we'd be looking at to add to our list you would think.
I don't think anyone on this site wants any player under the age 22 or under the age of 18 by the sounds of it, very hard to find ready made champions at that age with all the skills to take us to finals ... ::), but thats fine a few 150+ point whoopings and hindsight may come into play. Can't wait for the youth to come to the club dont worry about that but.......... we need the mix and I will keep saying it.
I will use one example for my reasoning, in all honesty Thursfield, Moore and McGuanne and even Rance have been bagged by many for underperforming. Now I ask you who was the onfield backline expert there to coach these guys when they were coming through... on the field (please dont be hypocrites and say Bowden) ?? Gasper, Graham and both Kellaways were either in the side while the previous mentioned players were in the Coburg side or they were all gone when our current backline started together. Give or take a bit of time but not much, yet most of the year our backline has failed...... gee wonder why!!
Around the ground other than the centre this has also occured, half back, half forward. Just my thoughts.
We haven't had a +100 point whooping in over 2 years WAT - R6 2007 vs Geelong - and we aren't going to have any this year. And our backline is not a good example of your point - they have actually done a fair job in very trying circumstances - the blame should be fairly pointed at our midfield that have had zero defensive accountability up until now. If he lives up to his rhetoric then I expect that to change considerably under Hardwick.
Yeah we havent had 100+ point whooping for over 2 years have we and I agree we wont have any this year either because the season is over... :lol, so what I am saying is get ready for it... and the 87 point crushing we got in round one wasn't too far behing either was it. I don't agree that our backline did a fair job either, quite often they seemed all over the place, overwhelmed and with no room to move, please see round 1 and round 22. I didn't see any experience around them (onfield) coaching them through it either.
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No point bringing in some temporary older players who are only good enough to carry us up to ninth and a late poor first pick which hinders our rebuild.
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It's the experience to teach the youngsters, it's not about carrying us up the ladder, we have tried that for too long. Two more players would not have hurt or will not hurt, pick 70 whatever and the other late one could be used. Lets face it our rebuild is shot to pieces somewhat after this years draft as we all know the G17 and Syd West teams are going to pilfer every youngster available.
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No point bringing in some temporary older players who are only good enough to carry us up to ninth and a late poor first pick which hinders our rebuild.
It's the experience to teach the youngsters, it's not about carrying us up the ladder, we have tried that for too long. Two more players would not have hurt or will not hurt, pick 70 whatever and the other late one could be used. Lets face it our rebuild is shot to pieces somewhat after this years draft as we all know the G17 and Syd West teams are going to pilfer every youngster available.
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The rebuild will be shot if we finish 9th-11th on the back of older players who will be gone in 3 to 4 years time and we end up with a first pick in the mid-teens next year. Compare that to the bottom 2 sides who will still end up with top 6 pick. As painful as it sounds we need to bottom out and go with youth.
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No point bringing in some temporary older players who are only good enough to carry us up to ninth and a late poor first pick which hinders our rebuild.
It's the experience to teach the youngsters, it's not about carrying us up the ladder, we have tried that for too long. Two more players would not have hurt or will not hurt, pick 70 whatever and the other late one could be used. Lets face it our rebuild is shot to pieces somewhat after this years draft as we all know the G17 and Syd West teams are going to pilfer every youngster available.
The rebuild will be shot if we finish 9th-11th on the back of older players who will be gone in 3 to 4 years time and we end up with a first pick in the mid-teens next year. Compare that to the bottom 2 sides who will still end up with top 6 pick. As painful as it sounds we need to bottom out and go with youth.
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Are you going to tell me that two experienced players amongst all that youth is going to matter to our final selections in the draft?? If you brought a few hundred games of experience to the club with known players to teach our youth it would save us time in the long run and the youth will come out better equiped. At least with two experienced players we know what we have and who to put them with to teach or we could end up with another Putt, Patto, JON, the list just goes on. Remember you can't buy experience no matter what picks you have, but you can gain experience through experience!!
Look at the finalists, their teams werea mixture, NOT all youth, this fantasy of building some super team from youth is not realistic, at some stage we NEED experience, be it this PSD/trade week or next years PSD/ trade week WE NEED some experience.
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Yeah we havent had 100+ point whooping for over 2 years have we and I agree we wont have any this year either because the season is over... :lol, so what I am saying is get ready for it... and the 87 point crushing we got in round one wasn't too far behing either was it. I don't agree that our backline did a fair job either, quite often they seemed all over the place, overwhelmed and with no room to move, please see round 1 and round 22. I didn't see any experience around them (onfield) coaching them through it either.
For the record, over the past 2 seasons this is each club's losses by 10 goals or more (games by 90 points or more in brackets):
West Coast - 10 (4)
Melbourne - 9 (3)
Fremantle - 7 (1)
Richmond - 7 (1)
Essendon - 6 (3)
Port Adel - 5 (1)
Brisbane - 4 (1)
Carlton - 3
Collingwood - 2
Nth Melb - 2
Sydney - 1
Geelong - 1
Adelaide - 1
W Bulldogs - 1
Hawthorn - 1
St Kilda - 0
So we certainly don't stand out as having a particularly poor backline. And our backline is made up entirely of kids that have managed to get a lot of match experience into them at a young age without having bled standout numbers of opposition goals - all with a dysfunctional coaching regime that had a game-plan the team was incapable of following.
Moore - 25 years old, 65 games.
Thursfield - 23 years old, 53 games.
McGuane - 22 years old, 54 games.
Polo - 23 years old, 53 games.
Rance - 20 years old, 15 games.
That's a fair bit of experience for a core of youngsters who are all capable players. Watch what happens when they actually get some support from team mates upfield.
Keep an open mind about the role of all the players in the team, especially the midfielders. They are the ones most responsible for the pressure that is placed on the backline and if you acknowledge the fact they appeared "overwhelmed" then look at who was doing the 'overwhelming' and how it was being done.
Turnovers through the midfield freeing up loose opposition players ring any bells?
Or players running the ball out of defence, looking up and seeing no-one making space or leading so turning back into trouble?
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I can see Cameron & Co rubbing their hands together while they queue for the Bain Maire that is the 2009 PSD...Hmmm what to choose...The rubbery sausage or the soggy chips??
Obviously the Dee's will not resist the allure of the Pie that looks good on the outside but is ever so disappointingly tired and overcooked on the inside...Hmmm who could that be??
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The way I see it, is when trying to rebuild from where we are at into a competitive side, every player you add to the list should offer something that will be potentially long term. That something, though does not necessarily have to be them still being in the side in four years time.( or whatever timeframe you think until finals are a possibility)
Young untried draftees speak for themselves, as do proven top line footballers looking for a change of club, with a number of years still in them.
Recycled players can offer a number of things.
They could be young players with ability that could not crack it at another club, but you believe you can identify and rectify what the problem was, giving you long term players.
They could be a middle aged player who can hold their own and fill a deficiency for a few years until the young players being developed can step up and take over. Not all players develop at the same rate. Some will be ready to play AFl at 18 while others may take longer. This is probably more relevant to key position players than mids.
They could be middle aged or even older players who can bring something besides their ability to get the pill and use it. This something is leadership. Cousins falls into this catagory
What you don't want is players that can't offer something you don't already have. Run of the mill players are a dime a dozen. They are not the foundations of a good side but make up the numbers. There are plenty of players who can hold a spot in a good side, but put them into a poor side expecting them to help take you to the next level and it soon becomes apparent that they are out their depth. You definitely don't want middle aged players that have a serious deficiency in their game.
The only player on the market I can see that could offer any long term benefit to Richmond is Bradshaw, but he wants three years and I believe in the third year he would be in the way. Two years of him at the club would offer, as Paul Roos puts it "mentoring" (he referred to Smith here), of which the benefits linger after he has gone. Bradshaw at Richmond for two years (or three) though is not going to happen, so there no point getting excited about it, either way.
The only other possibility I can see is Ball. I'm not convinced he has any real long term benefit, but I wont say he hasn't either ( I know others will though :) ) Again that's probably a moot point, because even if he goes into the draft, I cant see Melbourne overlooking him.
All the other names I have seen, to me any way, have either serious injury concerns, or just would not bring any thing that would be of long term benefit to the club.
WA tiger i agree, you do need experience, but it must be, as was said in another thread, "good" experience. There is no point in taking experience for experience sake, they must have leadership as well. Most of these guys are hacks, and would bring nothing to the club, except to be scapegoats for poor performances.
By the same token, if there was a player who could bring leadership to a developing group, you would amiss to overlook him just because he wont be there when you expect the side to be at a stage to be playing finals. If he helped you get to that stage and helped in the development of the young players, so they can take over from him, then he has served his purpose. I just cant see this type being available.
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No point bringing in some temporary older players who are only good enough to carry us up to ninth and a late poor first pick which hinders our rebuild.
It's the experience to teach the youngsters, it's not about carrying us up the ladder, we have tried that for too long. Two more players would not have hurt or will not hurt, pick 70 whatever and the other late one could be used. Lets face it our rebuild is shot to pieces somewhat after this years draft as we all know the G17 and Syd West teams are going to pilfer every youngster available.
The rebuild will be shot if we finish 9th-11th on the back of older players who will be gone in 3 to 4 years time and we end up with a first pick in the mid-teens next year. Compare that to the bottom 2 sides who will still end up with top 6 pick. As painful as it sounds we need to bottom out and go with youth.
Are you going to tell me that two experienced players amongst all that youth is going to matter to our final selections in the draft?? If you brought a few hundred games of experience to the club with known players to teach our youth it would save us time in the long run and the youth will come out better equiped. At least with two experienced players we know what we have and who to put them with to teach or we could end up with another Putt, Patto, JON, the list just goes on. Remember you can't buy experience no matter what picks you have, but you can gain experience through experience!!
Look at the finalists, their teams werea mixture, NOT all youth, this fantasy of building some super team from youth is not realistic, at some stage we NEED experience, be it this PSD/trade week or next years PSD/ trade week WE NEED some experience.
It will matter as they won't be part of the future with the young guys when latter matures as a group. These average experienced players in their mid-late 20s are then just taking up temporary spots in the side that will need to be replaced by young guys not in 2010 where it doesn't matter but in 2013 when we want to be playing finals and even pushing top 4. It also hurts us at this time of the year when propping up a mediocre side leads to poorer draft picks in the mid-teens and hence hinders our rebuild as we miss out the best classy and quality youngsters in the top half-dozen or so.
The young guys will gain experience as they play more games together. It's not as though we'll have a team full of inexperienced teenagers next year. We'll have 25 guys on our list 21 y.o. and over. We'll struggle to win games as we are younger and less experienced compared to top 8 sides but we still should be competitive against most sides.
35: Richo (282)
31: Cousins (253), Simmonds (190)
28: Tuck (110)
27: Newman (154)
26: McMahon (148 ), King (41), Moore (65)
24: Foley (84)
23: Jackson (69), Polo (52), Thomson (30), Thursfield (53), McGuane (54), Morton (50), Tambling (95)
22: Deledio (106), Graham (18 ), White (54), Nahas# (19)
21: Hislop (19), Collins (10), Connors (10), Edwards (47), Riewoldt (46)
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Are you going to tell me that two experienced players amongst all that youth is going to matter to our final selections in the draft??
Bringing in two experienced players means two less kids on the list
Two less opportunities to find another 200+ game player
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Ok it's obvious we have differing views on experience teaching youth and sustainability, so I will just sit back and watch now over the next 5 years. Unfortunately the only good experience that will be accepted by many on this forum will be the likes of Judd, J Brown, Kerr and the likes, but guess what that will never happen.
We are going to look pretty pathetic when even the GC and WS teams are selecting experienced players while trading their draft picks away. I would not even be surprised if bot the new teams have flags before us and in all honesty we have been rebuilding since 96!!
I understand the rebuilding and what needs to be done but many of you that answer my posts, do you understand what I am saying or do you have the rebuilding/youth blinkers on?
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GC17 & GWS can't field a team on 18 year olds
We will have a nucleus of 21-24 year olds to build our side around as well as some older guys
There is no need for more experience
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GC17 & GWS can't field a team on 18 year olds
We will have a nucleus of 21-24 year olds to build our side around as well as some older guys
There is no need for more experience
There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????
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There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????
Agreed.
Young does not = Good.
If you have the opportunity to pick a genuinely good player up in the PSD for basically nix, then you pick them up.
Otherwise why did we bother with Cousins last year, yet everyone's been raving about what a positive influence he's had on the kids??
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GC17 & GWS can't field a team on 18 year olds
We will have a nucleus of 21-24 year olds to build our side around as well as some older guys
There is no need for more experience
There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????
Smith I am far more concerned about as everyone knows that his issues are his ankles, same injury all the time
Thorp is a bit different as he's had hip, groin and broken foot in only 3 seasons, Smith was drafted 2 years earlier and still can't get on the park
Smith is also more of a flanker, a midfielder who's grown to kpp size. Thorp is a CHF, a much harder position to fill
Not saying Thorp is a certainty, but Hardwick would know Thorp and how bad his injuries were, if we tried to trade for him as rumoured then he can't possibly have warned us away from him.
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Ok it's obvious we have differing views on experience teaching youth and sustainability, so I will just sit back and watch now over the next 5 years. Unfortunately the only good experience that will be accepted by many on this forum will be the likes of Judd, J Brown, Kerr and the likes, but guess what that will never happen.
We are going to look pretty pathetic when even the GC and WS teams are selecting experienced players while trading their draft picks away. I would not even be surprised if bot the new teams have flags before us and in all honesty we have been rebuilding since 96!!
I understand the rebuilding and what needs to be done but many of you that answer my posts, do you understand what I am saying or do you have the rebuilding/youth blinkers on?
Its a good debate WAT and an interesting one and I certainly haven't got my youth blinkers on.
I was against getting Cousins last year because of a fear he could have a negative impact on our kids. Taking a risk with a drug addict is always going to be prone to failure and disappointment regardless of the circumstances (in sport or elsewhere). To Cousins great credit he has so far shown a good deal of intent and courage in facing his problem and moving forward with his life - and our kids have been the beneficiaries of that because he has bucketloads of 'good' experience - coming from a bottom team to playing and winning premierships, Brownlow medal, 4 time club champion, club captain etc. So in that respect I am very open-minded about the benefits of bringing experience to the club.
This year there have been 2 names thrown about that could potentially bring 'good' experience - Bradshaw and Ball. Neither of these have the leadership qualities of a Cousins, Ball has injury and physical limitation concerns while Bradshaw wanted a 3 year contract. So to use up picks in trade week for either did not present a ROI worth the risk - neither of them would bring anywhere near the package of leadership potential that Cousins did and it's that leadership that we need more than any other single thing at our club. Add to that the fact (as Infamy highlighted) that many of our kids are now approaching 21/22/23 years of age and already have 50-100 games under their belts - that is significant experience right there so to go out and use draft picks to chase more experience for experience sake to me is a wasted folly - they need leadership ('good' experience).
Now to counter that, if these players nominated for the PSD (not the National Draft where all the best kids will be) and if we had not been able to fill our list with kids we thought showed enough potential to take them in the National Draft then I would re-consider these 2 players above. Why? Because they are still good players, they still have some measure of 'good' experience to offer and we would not be robbing Peter to pay Paul by taking them over kids with some potential. Now that leaves us with the rest of the experienced players. I would not consider McPhee or Welsh under any circumstances because they just don't bring enough to the table to justify it - I would rather take a punt on a long term project kid. I would consider Thorp because he certainly has ability and there may be underlying factors such as injury and attitude that may not be around at a different club in the future (and we have a leg-up on inside info because of Hardwick). I would not consider Smith because he has been too injury-prone for too many years now to justify any sort of risk in taking him. Please note here I said the word "consider" - I am not saying we should take any of them but some of them we should "consider".
So what I am saying in summary is that I am trying to be as open-minded as I can about the circumstances of each available option and how that option can best serve the needs of our club. And probably where I differ from many others is that I have more faith in the potential of our current list than many others - I believe they have a good level of core ability, have an inordinate level of match experience and will display more rapid 'improvement' under a coaching regime that is able to get the message, game-plan and culture right. Whether that regime is currently in place only time will tell but I wouldn't be a Richmond supporter if I didn't have faith!
:gotigers
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GC17 & GWS can't field a team on 18 year olds
We will have a nucleus of 21-24 year olds to build our side around as well as some older guys
There is no need for more experience
There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????
Smith was rated top 10 / 5 in the 2004 draft
Thorp #6 - 2006
both have injurys but they also have potential.
If we were to draft them and they get on the park and play well then the up side of this middle and long term is far, far greater for the Richmond football club than getting late 20's hacks like McPhee and Welsh.
I would rather a young, highly rated, injury prone kid with the abilty to be good long term players than discard list cloggers from rubbish teams like Essendon.
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There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????
Agreed.
Young does not = Good.
If you have the opportunity to pick a genuinely good player up in the PSD for basically nix, then you pick them up.
Otherwise why did we bother with Cousins last year, yet everyone's been raving about what a positive influence he's had on the kids??
Ben Cousins is one of the best players in the last 15 years of Australian football.
Last year he showed his value as a gun. When he has another pre-season he will get even better.
Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee are not in the same class. Not even close.
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Ok it's obvious we have differing views on experience teaching youth and sustainability, so I will just sit back and watch now over the next 5 years. Unfortunately the only good experience that will be accepted by many on this forum will be the likes of Judd, J Brown, Kerr and the likes, but guess what that will never happen.
We are going to look pretty pathetic when even the GC and WS teams are selecting experienced players while trading their draft picks away. I would not even be surprised if bot the new teams have flags before us and in all honesty we have been rebuilding since 96!!
I understand the rebuilding and what needs to be done but many of you that answer my posts, do you understand what I am saying or do you have the rebuilding/youth blinkers on?
I dont think you are correct in saying the club has been rebuilding since 1996 WAT.
I believe 96 to 02 was an era in which the tigers continuously over rated its list.This led to the recruitment of plenty of "experienced" players.
Some gave good service for only a year or two (leon Cameron) most were massive flops.
Year after year of "topping up" with experience is one of the main reasons we find ourselves in this massive hole.
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So what I am saying in summary is that I am trying to be as open-minded as I can about the circumstances of each available option and how that option can best serve the needs of our club. And probably where I differ from many others is that I have more faith in the potential of our current list than many others - I believe they have a good level of core ability, have an inordinate level of match experience and will display more rapid 'improvement' under a coaching regime that is able to get the message, game-plan and culture right. Whether that regime is currently in place only time will tell but I wouldn't be a Richmond supporter if I didn't have faith!
:gotigers
That really is the bottom line isn't it. Appraising each and every circumstance on it's merits and not making decisions based on some pre-conceived idea (ideal?). You have much more chance of getting it right then.
It's a good point about the list. This time last year many in the football world were talking up Richmond as potential finalists. Cousins was going to be cream added to our list to help ensure that. So twleve months ago many saw our list as in the best 8, now its the worst? How did that happen? The list didn't change in that period. There is a core there and as you say they just need the right guidance and hopefully the new coaching staff can deliver that. :pray :pray :pray
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Ok it's obvious we have differing views on experience teaching youth and sustainability, so I will just sit back and watch now over the next 5 years. Unfortunately the only good experience that will be accepted by many on this forum will be the likes of Judd, J Brown, Kerr and the likes, but guess what that will never happen.
We are going to look pretty pathetic when even the GC and WS teams are selecting experienced players while trading their draft picks away. I would not even be surprised if bot the new teams have flags before us and in all honesty we have been rebuilding since 96!!
I understand the rebuilding and what needs to be done but many of you that answer my posts, do you understand what I am saying or do you have the rebuilding/youth blinkers on?
I dont think you are correct in saying the club has been rebuilding since 1996 WAT.
I believe 96 to 02 was an era in which the tigers continuously over rated its list.This led to the recruitment of plenty of "experienced" players.
Some gave good service for only a year or two (leon Cameron) most were massive flops.
Year after year of "topping up" with experience is one of the main reasons we find ourselves in this massive hole.
correct Matt
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I dont think you are correct in saying the club has been rebuilding since 1996 WAT.
I believe 96 to 02 was an era in which the tigers continuously over rated its list.This led to the recruitment of plenty of "experienced" players.
Some gave good service for only a year or two (leon Cameron) most were massive flops.
Year after year of "topping up" with experience is one of the main reasons we find ourselves in this massive hole.
correct Matt
[/quote]
You are preaching to the converted boys :thumbsup
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Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee are not in the same class. Not even close.
Thanks for that Bentleigh-obvious.
Whilst clearly not in Cousins class, Welsh and McPhee would also both EASILY walk into our 22 and likely be there for the next 3 years. It's not as if we have many in our team you can say that about right now. Where as Thorp has done Jack squat and Smith a little more. Both of them are severley hampered by injury.
So what do you do?
Knock back a quality player with at least 3 years left (a long time in football despite the naysayers) or take a punt on a youngster who's more than likely to fail?
Forget the notion of quick fixes.
IMO the PSD selection costs you absolutely nothing in terms of juniors so I would take the option that might actually help improve your football team and the players within it. Or you can go and pick up a young dud who'll likely be delisted in another 12 months.
These guys are not Kent Kingsley, they can actually play and would make our team better being in it. Heaven forbid it might even help us improve.
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Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee are not in the same class. Not even close.
Whilst clearly not in Cousins class, Welsh and McPhee would also both EASILY walk into our 22 and likely be there for the next 3 years.
Yet will not be at the club when we are next successful, that's the exact definition of a list clogger
Where as Thorp has done Jack squat and Smith a little more. Both of them are severley hampered by injury.
They are both still young enough that they may get over the injuries and have an AFL career, Thorp more so than Smith. Either way due dilligence should be taken regarding both and their injuries. You'd think Hardwick is qualified to make a call on Thorp who is the more likely of the two to come to Richmond.
So what do you do?
Knock back a quality player with at least 3 years left (a long time in football despite the naysayers) or take a punt on a youngster who's more than likely to fail?
Knock back a quality (sic) player with 3 years left and take a punt on a youngster... pretty much that's exactly what we should do. That's how you rebuild a list. You keep taking punts on youngsters so you increase your chances of finding premiership quality players. You don't fill the list with players you know WON'T be part of your next premiership.
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Just a quick reply because I have been flat out and it was my 40th last night... :thumbsup. Love the debates and Smokey you have some real valid points and yes it is a good debate. I don't want crap coming to this club but I think we need to continually fill a void, if that is done with kids then so be it, if it is done with experineced ölder"players then so be it. What ever the club does I will respect and keek the dream alive........ : :)
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So, Infamy, I take it you wouldn't have given Cousins another contract?
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So, Infamy, I take it you wouldn't have given Cousins another contract?
I knew someone would make that conclusion
Yes I'm happy Cousins got another contract, as was said Cousins is in a different class of player
There is plenty that Cousins can teach our midfielders about playing the position and all players on the list about leadership
Welsh & McPhee are depth players at best, even in our 22
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I knew someone would make that conclusion
;D
Yes I'm happy Cousins got another contract, as was said Cousins is in a different class of player
There is plenty that Cousins can teach our midfielders about playing the position and all players on the list about leadership
Welsh & McPhee are depth players at best, even in our 22
I think you are are being a bit gracious to Welsh and Mcphee there. From your posts I got the impression it was youth at all costs. I now see though, that you can recognise that the right sort of person can offer more than just what they do with the ball. (There is no doubting that these two are not the right sort of person)
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The main difference is that Cousins is already on the list
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Cousins coaches where others do not or wont be able to coach the kids, the best thing for us is if a few of the discards are taken in the national draft effectively giving us a better chance of a better kid!
I would like to pick up 23 year olds and younger unless there are exceptional circumstances.
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I would rather draft Patrick Bowden and Tim Fleming ahead of McPhee and Welsh.
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Benny Gale was chatting to Welsh at the races ........ but about horses according to the Herald-Sun
Footy runs second to finding winner
By Chris de Kretser and Daryl Timms
Wed 04 Nov 2009, Page 78
NO, ANDREW Welsh isn't heading to Richmond and nor is recently retired Essendon captain Matthew Lloyd heading to Punt Rd as footy manager.
The man pictured in the middle -- Richmond chief executive Brendon Gale -- was talking to the pair about horses and not football when they crossed paths in Tabcorp's marquee.
Lloyd (left) is happy in retirement and keeping trim by running the Tan every second day.
``This is the first Melbourne Cup for a few years where I've been able to enjoy myself without having to worry about pre-season training,'' he said.
Lloyd is close to finalising a deal with Channel 10 and also plans to do some radio work.
Welsh, who returned from overseas last week, is hoping to negotiate a new deal with Essendon before pre-season training starts on Monday.
Essendon has offered him a two-year deal but, like teammate Adam McPhee, he wants three. ``I just hope everything can get sorted,'' Welsh said. ``I want to stay at Essendon".
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Melbourne, which has the first pick in the pre-season draft, is unlikely to make a play for McPhee given he is over 25 years of age.
Richmond, at No. 2, is going down a similar path, meaning the Dockers should get a free hit at McPhee if he nominates.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/fremantle-dockers-eye-out-of-contract-essendon-bomberadam-mcphee/story-e6frf9ix-1225794444701
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Melbourne, which has the first pick in the pre-season draft, is unlikely to make a play for McPhee given he is over 25 years of age.
Richmond, at No. 2, is going down a similar path, meaning the Dockers should get a free hit at McPhee if he nominates.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/fremantle-dockers-eye-out-of-contract-essendon-bomberadam-mcphee/story-e6frf9ix-1225794444701
I hope we steer WELL clear of McShee
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Any listed AFL player who has the first 2 letters of his surname beginning with MC should never be allowed near our football club again.
They are all useless
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Fremantle wouldn't want to go for McPhee would they?
He left Freo in 2001 or 2002 to join the Bombers. Why would he go back again?Any listed AFL player who has the first 2 letters of his surname beginning with MC should never be allowed near our football club again.
They are all useless
Steven McKee
Mark McQueen
Allan McKellar
Not that many more I can think of Daniel. I think we re recruited McQueen once or twice after he was delisted.
Mckee was shipped off to Collingwood for Clinton King.
Allan McKellar was running around in our cubs side of 87/88.
Can't think of any more.
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Melbourne, which has the first pick in the pre-season draft, is unlikely to make a play for McPhee given he is over 25 years of age.
Richmond, at No. 2, is going down a similar path, meaning the Dockers should get a free hit at McPhee if he nominates.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/fremantle-dockers-eye-out-of-contract-essendon-bomberadam-mcphee/story-e6frf9ix-1225794444701
I hope we steer WELL clear of McShee
So do I, he makes stupid decisions on the field and thinks he has more ability than he does. He keeps kicking long for 60m targets and surprise surprise they nearly always get picked off. Steer clear.
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I think we re recruited McQueen once or twice after he was delisted.
Mckee was shipped off to Collingwood for Clinton King.
Allan McKellar was running around in our cubs side of 87/88.
Can't think of any more.
Basil McCormack - 199 games - 1925-1936
Craig McKellar - 96 games - 1971-1975
Ron McDonald - 92 games - 1955-1960
Frank McCashney - 82 games - 1909-1915
Robert McGhie - 81 games - 1973-1978
Norm McIntosh - 78 games - 1920-1924
Angus MacIsaac - 59 games - 1922-1924, 1926-1927
Luke McGuane - 54 games - 2006-2009
and a couple of others that didn't make it to 50.
Craig McKellar was a handy ruckman from SA in the early 70's (who played 2nd ruck to Brian Roberts) that I remember and 'Tatts' McGhie was a hard-nosed defender from that era - I would have either of them in my side today.
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Thanks for that Smokey :thumbsup
Geez Luke McGuane how could I have missed that lol :rollin
Yep the others were before my time but I recall having heard of Craig McKellar, Basil McCormack and Robbie McGhie who come from Footscray.
Not many when you think about it in 101 seasons of VFL/AFL footy.
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Yep the others were before my time but I recall having heard of Craig McKellar, Basil McCormack and Robbie McGhie who come from Footscray.
Not many when you think about it in 101 seasons of VFL/AFL footy.
Yeah Tucker, I was surprised too - I thought there would have been more. Don't know why, I just did.
Craig McKellar was a 'bloodnut' from SA (Woodville if my memory serves me correctly but I am struggling with that). He was a very reliable 2nd ruck and formed a strong combination with the Whale. They had both gone by the end of '75 and with it went our chances until Mark Lee stepped up in 1980.
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Craig McKellar was a handy ruckman from SA in the early 70's (who played 2nd ruck to Brian Roberts) that I remember and 'Tatts' McGhie was a hard-nosed defender from that era - I would have either of them in my side today.
Robbie McGhie (courtesy TigerOnceRemoved from BF)
(http://oztape.com.au/files/image/rob%20McGhie.jpg)
Wasn't that a different era?
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gold.
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McPhee looks like going back to Freo with the pick 3 in the PSD.
Richmond won't get in their way
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/adam-mcphee-set-for-freo/story-e6frf9if-1225795559749
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good!
take Under 18's Richmond!
:)
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Welsh has re-signed with Essendon according to SEN.
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"ESSENDON has signed key midfielder Andrew Welsh and defender Nathan Lovett-Murray to new two-year deals, but has yet to come to terms with utility Adam McPhee."
http://www.afl.com.au/tabid/208/default.aspx?newsid=86754
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McPhee has quit Essendon and is off to Freo on a 3-year deal via pick 3 in the PSD.
Melbourne and Richmond have the first two picks in that draft, but will not take a player several years out of their age profile.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/adam-mcphee-gives-bombers-the-heave-ho/story-e6frf9jf-1225798382559