One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Bulluss on February 20, 2005, 05:01:38 PM
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Over the weekend i have heard a couple of people refer to our young players as the "Best in the Land"
Hopefully we are really moving towards some very special and exciting times at Tigerland, it would be great if the giant was awoken from its slumber.
The roar will be magnificent
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Early days to judge if they are the best in the land but at least we are now sticking to a long-term plan of developing our own quality kids in numbers to achieve success. You can already see from Deledio and Tambling's skill level the "benefits" of drafting the best kids available as opposed to trading your top draft pick(s) for mature players and remaining in mediocrity like we did for 10 years. At this early stage those two plus Jackson and Raines IMHO look the stand outs from the last two drafts. Thought Raines was stiff not to get a go Fridat night. Meyer doesn't look too bad either although at only 70kg he needs to get into the gym.
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Deledio is the best in the land, don't worry about that. I'm already confident in his ability. Tambling has natural talent, skill, and speed but he just needs to harness it a bit as he seems to be all over the place bouncing around in packs. He needs to learn to steady, head over the ball in packs and settle.
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I’m as positive about the future and our young players as anyone, but I have to get this off my chest. We’ve got all these good young players coming into the Club and who are they supposed to be looking up to and seeing as role models? Senior players with bad playing habits and even worse traits, that’s who!
I have a major problem with that. It has nothing to do with the personalities or the senior players themselves, but the cold hard fact is that they have come from a very poor and even diabolical playing culture. Is it right then that our young players are supposedly looking up to them? Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this.
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You would hope that our new coaching staff as well as the recruitment of a number of senior players from other clubs would provide a different perspective in terms of culture to Tigerland and especially to the 16 teenagers :o on our list. I mean as a youngster you would take more notice of Wallace, David King and Sugar who have reached the summit of success than many of our long time senior guys who have only experienced failure and mediocrity. 27 out of our list of 41 have only arrived at Punt Road in say the last 2-3 years. Cambo, Richo, Joel, AK and perhaps Rory, Chaffs and Tivs are the only remaining remnants of the old core group.
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I’m as positive about the future and our young players as anyone, but I have to get this off my chest. We’ve got all these good young players coming into the Club and who are they supposed to be looking up to and seeing as role models? Senior players with bad playing habits and even worse traits, that’s who!
I have a major problem with that. It has nothing to do with the personalities or the senior players themselves, but the cold hard fact is that they have come from a very poor and even diabolical playing culture. Is it right then that our young players are supposedly looking up to them? Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this.
I can totally understand where your comming from TS, but unfortunately we don't have a choice in the matter, we've got what we've got in terms of our senior players. We just need our coaching group to really stamp there authority on what is acceptable and what isn't in preparation and training for the youngsters and for that matter seniors as well and it's probably the only way we are going to get through it and change the culture.
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I know we were sort of talking about this on another thread Rodger. I don’t really think that TW would be as tolerant as others before him have been and so we will see new standards of what’s acceptable. But what are we waiting for and till when do we need to wait?
I’m not particularly keen on seeing our prized recruits being subjected to ways that have led us to nowhere before, especially when they’re capable of a lot more and better. I just reckon that if we want to stop going down the same track as we have in the past then we need to start giving these young players the opportunity to set their own high standards. Because our standards of the past just aren’t high enough for them, or anyone. Maybe that already happens in ways we don’t get to see, but what is visible is what happens out on the ground.
And Friday night was a good opportunity to see the past and the future in the one game. As rapt as I was with the efforts of the young players, I was just as disappointed in some of the efforts of the senior group of players. Noone really stood up when it was needed and they just about all made bad decisions under pressure, or gave away unnecessary free kicks. The selfishness displayed by undisciplined acts at times was just typical of what we have become all too used to seeing. And just gives everyone else another reason to continue laughing at us.
Something’s gotta give. Either we start setting team-oriented standards of discipline now or we kiss the careers of these young players goodbye. Waiting until they’re ready to take over the mantle may just be too late.
Maybe I’m being a bit over the top, but like most others, I’ve been watching the same players doing the same things for long enough. I want to see something that says we’ve really changed. It takes time to develop a team and even longer when you continue to accept the sort of standards we have accepted in the past.
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And Friday night was a good opportunity to see the past and the future in the one game. As rapt as I was with the efforts of the young players, I was just as disappointed in some of the efforts of the senior group of players. Noone really stood up when it was needed and they just about all made bad decisions under pressure, or gave away unnecessary free kicks. The selfishness displayed by undisciplined acts at times was just typical of what we have become all too used to seeing. And just gives everyone else another reason to continue laughing at us.
Something’s gotta give. Either we start setting team-oriented standards of discipline now or we kiss the careers of these young players goodbye. Waiting until they’re ready to take over the mantle may just be too late.
Maybe I’m being a bit over the top, but like most others, I’ve been watching the same players doing the same things for long enough. I want to see something that says we’ve really changed. It takes time to develop a team and even longer when you continue to accept the sort of standards we have accepted in the past.
Perhaps that was what the Wallace - Brown chat after the game was all about!
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Wallace would have got plenty out of Friday night because it was a mixture of the past and future. The game summed up us in one go. Good in patches but in the end we failed when it came down to the crunch :(. He wanted to see how the 4 candidates performed when under pressure. He definitely got to see that and would be disappointed. It was a smart decision to hold off deciding on the captaincy. Wallace will have to exert more influence and direction from the coaches box than if he was coaching a side with strong leaders on-field.
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I know we were sort of talking about this on another thread Rodger. I don’t really think that TW would be as tolerant as others before him have been and so we will see new standards of what’s acceptable. But what are we waiting for and till when do we need to wait?
I’m not particularly keen on seeing our prized recruits being subjected to ways that have led us to nowhere before, especially when they’re capable of a lot more and better. I just reckon that if we want to stop going down the same track as we have in the past then we need to start giving these young players the opportunity to set their own high standards. Because our standards of the past just aren’t high enough for them, or anyone. Maybe that already happens in ways we don’t get to see, but what is visible is what happens out on the ground.
And Friday night was a good opportunity to see the past and the future in the one game. As rapt as I was with the efforts of the young players, I was just as disappointed in some of the efforts of the senior group of players. Noone really stood up when it was needed and they just about all made bad decisions under pressure, or gave away unnecessary free kicks. The selfishness displayed by undisciplined acts at times was just typical of what we have become all too used to seeing. And just gives everyone else another reason to continue laughing at us.
Something’s gotta give. Either we start setting team-oriented standards of discipline now or we kiss the careers of these young players goodbye. Waiting until they’re ready to take over the mantle may just be too late.
Maybe I’m being a bit over the top, but like most others, I’ve been watching the same players doing the same things for long enough. I want to see something that says we’ve really changed. It takes time to develop a team and even longer when you continue to accept the sort of standards we have accepted in the past.
Unfortunately the only way to answer this is to say it is going to take time. But fortunatley I can also say this, It shouldn't take the normal amount of time to change things as It would usually.
Now that I've got you thoroughly confused, Ill try to explain what I mean buy what I just said, but first I've got to give you a bit of history. A few years ago, probably about 3 or 4 I did a quick study of team performances leading up to the change of coaches and after the change of coaches and my findings were that on average it takes about 18 months for a side to fully adapt to the new regime of the new coach.
In that first 18 months of that new coaches life he is busy implementing his own philosophies, training routines, stratergies, ways about handling particular things that come up in games conditions etc, you get the idea?. But while that is happening there is something else happening that is just as important "old routines and solutions to situations are being run out of the normal operating patterns of those players.
If you look at it from the viewpoint of driving a car you'll understand what i'm saying better. When you learn't to drive a car, you had to learn the body actions that where needed in order to make the car move, to go faster, to slow down, to stop it etc. After much or a bit of practice these actions become an automaticity, meaning they become automatic, you no longer have to deliberatley think about what your doing, the body just does it. Well it's the same with football, players learn routines, a game plan if you like, and learn to do things in particular given situations, Like when blah does blah I do blah, or when I'm under pressure I've got to chip kick to the wings or hand ball backwards to gasper etc.
The point is, there will be operating patterns that these players will be running on an automaticity, this is why we will continue to see at times, like we did on friday night where the players go back to doing the things we all have hated for the last 5 years. In the last 10 minutes of that match the pressure on the minds of our players would have been greater than at any other stage in the match especially with the pies kicking goals and getting closer and with the lack of time to recover, it was the last quarter, we didn't have another quarter to look forward to where we could regather our composure and bounce back, it was now or never. And what happened, the old automaticities of our older players kicked in beutifully, the young guns kept attacking, our old heads went back to old ways and disappeared and we lost the game.
Now comes the good news, as I said, it takes about 18 months to iron out these old operating patterns, which means about the middle of next season we should really start to take off and be making a much much greater impact on the competition, however it might not take us that long. The reason it might not take us so long and this is the one really good thing about this situation, is that we have turned over our list quite substantially and more will be turned over at the end of this season. This means that the old routines will not be as ingrained into some as it is into others, our last years draftees and this years draftees should be fine and should adapt very quickly to Wallace's new stratergies and routines but our older guys are going to take more time, probably the full 18 months, could be quicker, some also may never be able to make the transition unfortunately.
So I'm afraid our yuong guys are going to be stuck with the inadequicies of our older troop until those older guys learn to adapt to the new methods. In the main, on the surface they will look to be adapting and they will be, but the real story comes to the top when the pressure is on, when time and space is closed out, thats when the old get out of jail actions take place. Only time, constant drilling and usage of the new patterns can eradicate it.
TS I hope this has answered your query somewhat. You say that "I want to see something that says we’ve really changed" well, I think we have seen that to some extent and the more the season unravels it will become clearer to you that things are changing for the better, by mid season neat year it will be very apparent, I know it is not now but we just have to grin and bare it and get the boys out on the track and drill drill drill.
On another topic, Leadership is another major issue that the club needs to confront. We don't have any real leaders, I honestly think that a good consistant player at this stage should be made captain until one of the younger players stands up and can assert his authority on the group. At this stage I would be happy for the club to name Kane Johnson as the captain and then get Coughlan, Jackson, Raines, Roach, Newman, Hartigan, Deledio,Tambling and anyone else who might be showing a bit through some sort of leadership and Media training in preparation for the future role as captain. I'd give Johnson 2 years in the job while we are developing and then promote one of the younger guys into the position.
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Top post RR. Like you said I think learning Wallace's strategies and set-ups won't take as long as 18 months for us as our kids will pick them pretty quickly. Conversely, it will most likely take longer than 18 months for them to gain the experience needed at this level. That could take 2+ years to reach that 40-50 games mark. Talls of course can take even longer than that to develop.
One old habit that gets up my goat is our up and under field kicking. You see other sides kick through the ball and drill passes to their teammates whereas we often just lob ours :scream.
On another topic, Leadership is another major issue that the club needs to confront. We don't have any real leaders, I honestly think that a good consistant player at this stage should be made captain until one of the younger players stands up and can assert his authority on the group. At this stage I would be happy for the club to name Kane Johnson as the captain and then get Coughlan, Jackson, Raines, Roach, Newman, Hartigan, Deledio,Tambling and anyone else who might be showing a bit through some sort of leadership and Media training in preparation for the future role as captain. I'd give Johnson 2 years in the job while we are developing and then promote one of the younger guys into the position.
Couldn't agree more RR. On top of his consistency Johnno also comes from a successful background with the Crows - 2 flags. Let him have the job for 2 years then hand it over to the new generation.
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:thumbsup Rodger.
I don’t expect that everything’s going to happen all at once and I don’t mean this as an attack, or that we should throw anyone out. My major concern is that, while things do change, we have all these impressionable types being influenced by those who haven’t had to live up to any great standards in the past (not all through their own fault). Is that ideal and is there a way around it until new standards are adopted and the younger players find their feet?
I would just like to know how much influence some of the more experienced players have on the younger players, or whether the coaching staff dictates all the terms. Because I wouldn’t like to think that the younger players could set better and higher standards, yet are being ‘dragged’ down by our old ones.
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I would just like to know how much influence some of the more experienced players have on the younger players, or whether the coaching staff dictates all the terms. Because I wouldn’t like to think that the younger players could set better and higher standards, yet are being ‘dragged’ down by our old ones.
You would hope the coaching staff expect just as high standards from the senior players who have been at the club for ages as much as they do from the new youngsters. Paul Roos on the weekend talked about the trap for coaches was they hardly spent any time with the older players because they think the oldies know what needs to be done and it's the young kids that need guidance and support. He said he found his last year of footy difficult because he hardly had contact with the coach. There was hardly anyone to tell him he played a good game or not. Hopefully Terry spends time with the old guys at Tigerland setting standards he expects from them to follow and doesn't tolerate soft and below standard efforts such as the second quarter and last 10-15 mins of the game last Friday night.
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MT, I can relate Paul Roos’ comments to what I’ve heard the last couple of years from our Club. I know it’s all different now so hopefully it’s not relevant, and even though I don’t remember exactly what was said, the comments left you thinking that some senior players did know it all and didn’t need much, if any, guidance or whatever. And that they were the measuring stick for everyone else. At the time I just felt like doing this :banghead :banghead
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MT, I can relate Paul Roos’ comments to what I’ve heard the last couple of years from our Club. I know it’s all different now so hopefully it’s not relevant, and even though I don’t remember exactly what was said, the comments left you thinking that some senior players did know it all and didn’t need much, if any, guidance or whatever. And that they were the measuring stick for everyone else. At the time I just felt like doing this :banghead :banghead
No wonder we were stuffed, this point alone is very damaging for a side as it sets up individuation and in a team activity individuation is the straw that will break the camels back, the above is a very bad approach to coaching. All players in any side always need some kind of feedback even if it is to reinforce good actions undertaken in the game.
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I don’t expect that everything’s going to happen all at once and I don’t mean this as an attack, or that we should throw anyone out. My major concern is that, while things do change, we have all these impressionable types being influenced by those who haven’t had to live up to any great standards in the past (not all through their own fault). Is that ideal and is there a way around it until new standards are adopted and the younger players find their feet?
Your definetly right about the fact that it's all not going to happen at once and I wouldn't be too concerned about the older guys making a bad impression on the younger guys. If Frawley was still in charge then I would be concerned because he showed us that he really didn't have any direction and he really didn't know what he was doing. The younger guys that have come into the side over the last 2 years would have no doubt been told what is required of them in terms of training, attitude etc by Wallace and Royal. The older guys would also have been given a chat to and I'm sure any out points will be followed up and corrected so that the whole team is on the same page in what's regarded as needed and wanted from them. This will always be a work in progress as there is always something that can be done a little bit better.
I would just like to know how much influence some of the more experienced players have on the younger players, or whether the coaching staff dictates all the terms. Because I wouldn’t like to think that the younger players could set better and higher standards, yet are being ‘dragged’ down by our old ones.
The younger players wont be dragged down by the older players, Im not saying that there never will be an instance where a senoir player does an action that would be detrimental to the development of a younger player, but if such an instance presented itself then I would expect the coaching staff and other players themselves including the club, to jump down the throat of that situation very quickly. There is also no doubt that the likes of Brown, Bowden, Campbell, Johnson and even Richo would have an influence on some of the younger players, it is only to be expected really. The only problem I see in that group just mentioned would be Richardson and only in the area of his on ground actions and I'm not talking about his dummy spits either, it's his decision making and mindset in a game that is of concern.
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MT, I can relate Paul Roos’ comments to what I’ve heard the last couple of years from our Club. I know it’s all different now so hopefully it’s not relevant, and even though I don’t remember exactly what was said, the comments left you thinking that some senior players did know it all and didn’t need much, if any, guidance or whatever. And that they were the measuring stick for everyone else. At the time I just felt like doing this :banghead :banghead
No wonder we were stuffed, this point alone is very damaging for a side as it sets up individuation and in a team activity individuation is the straw that will break the camels back, the above is a very bad approach to coaching. All players in any side always need some kind of feedback even if it is to reinforce good actions undertaken in the game.
Talk of senior players running the place has been doing the rounds even before Spud arrived on the scene. Rumours were everywhere about that sort of thing when Geischen was coach. I can't see Wallace putting up with any player, especially a senior player, with a individualistic attitude who thinks he knows it all. With such a high turnover of the list the past 2 years they'll be easily found out. Hopefully as TS said it's all different now.
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The younger players wont be dragged down by the older players, Im not saying that there never will be an instance where a senoir player does an action that would be detrimental to the development of a younger player, but if such an instance presented itself then I would expect the coaching staff and other players themselves including the club, to jump down the throat of that situation very quickly. There is also no doubt that the likes of Brown, Bowden, Campbell, Johnson and even Richo would have an influence on some of the younger players, it is only to be expected really. The only problem I see in that group just mentioned would be Richardson and only in the area of his on ground actions and I'm not talking about his dummy spits either, it's his decision making and mindset in a game that is of concern.
Actually Rodger, this all started because of Richo’s “dummy spit” the other night, because Tambling wasn’t too far away from it all looking on. I’m sure it’s not a big deal and he’s (Tambling) not gonna go out next time and do the same thing, but it’s just not a great example for anyone. Apart from the fact it’s just a plain selfish act in a team situation.
I agree about Richo’s decision making, but I don’t think he’s alone there either. I’ve just never felt that him playing up the ground is going to work. If he was in a well drilled team where teammates have a greater understanding of one another then maybe, but as it is at the moment I just don’t see it working.
Some players have all the time in the world to do something with the footy, but once Richo has the footy in his hands he cannot afford to change his mind about what he’s going to do with it. He’s so unpredictable that he’s become predictable. And sometimes I don’t even look when he hasn’t got rid of it with his first thought, because I know what’s gonna happen next. The roar from opposition supporters generally lets you know.
Talk of senior players running the place has been doing the rounds even before Spud arrived on the scene. Rumours were everywhere about that sort of thing when Geischen was coach. I can't see Wallace putting up with any player, especially a senior player, with a individualistic attitude who thinks he knows it all. With such a high turnover of the list the past 2 years they'll be easily found out. Hopefully as TS said it's all different now.
All we can do is hope MT. I think you’ve mentioned before somewhere, how this sort of thing was an issue more than 10 years ago. And I think that’s right. But hopefully we can now see the end of those times.
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Some players have all the time in the world to do something with the footy, but once Richo has the footy in his hands he cannot afford to change his mind about what he’s going to do with it. He’s so unpredictable that he’s become predictable. And sometimes I don’t even look when he hasn’t got rid of it with his first thought, because I know what’s gonna happen next. The roar from opposition supporters generally lets you know.
Playing the percentages isn't one of Richo's strengths. He often tries to play the game as fast as he thinks and doesn't have with that big frame of his the coordination of a Browny say to pull things off. In the third quarter he grabbed the ball near the boundary line and just needed to centre a quick kick but fluffed the whole thing out of bounds just as he fluffed the kick playing on from 15m out from goal at the other end. You've just got to be smarter than that and know your strengths and limitations. Mind you Richo isn't the only Tiger who fails to play the percentages.
All we can do is hope MT. I think you’ve mentioned before somewhere, how this sort of thing was an issue more than 10 years ago. And I think that’s right. But hopefully we can now see the end of those times.
It was alleged in the media senior players at the time had gone to the Board in the middle of 1999 demanding Geisch's resignation. And IIRC Walls has said publicly before that senior players at Richmond have had too much say. Not a way to run a footy club :P.
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Dont get me started on Richo on this site aswell !!!
I wouldnt want to upset Julz ;D
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Dont get me started on Richo on this site aswell !!!
I wouldnt want to upset Julz ;D
Probably too late for me PRR. :P Sorry Julz and others.