One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on January 24, 2014, 06:41:10 PM
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Tiger on the move: Dusty the defender
Nathan Schmook
afl.com.au
January 24, 2014
RICHMOND is preparing Dustin Martin for a possible role in the backline this season as the club looks to capitalise on his versatility under new interchange restrictions.
Martin, who has kicked 79 goals in the past three seasons and averaged 23 possessions, has developed into an offensive weapon in the midfield and forward line.
However, coach Damien Hardwick said the Tigers wanted to explore his attacking traits across half-back, with the 22-year-old training with the club's defenders this summer.
"He's shown the ability to play forward and through the midfield … probably the one area we haven't really tinkered with a little bit is his ability to play down back," Hardwick told AFL.com.au.
"That's something we're looking at this year. He's a very capable player at creating scores.
"If we can get the ball in his hands through that half-back zone, it's a very damaging scoring zone, so we feel as if we'll certainly score from that."
Hardwick said versatility would become even more important for midfielders in 2014 with interchange rotations capped at 120.
Defender Alex Rance said the Tigers had successfully used midfielders Brett Deledio and Trent Cotchin in the backline at times, and he was confident Martin would make the transition if required.
"He's trained really well there this pre-season so I'd love to see him down there because he's an amazing kick and decision-maker," Rance said.
"I think it's just getting that defensive element into his game and just getting good decision-makers with the ball.
"I think a lot of clubs are going through that sort of process now of having good decision-makers coming out of the backline … Hawthorn have got Sam Mitchell."
In attack, the Tigers will again focus on being unpredictable, according to Hardwick, with Jack Riewoldt in line to play a number of different roles.
The two-time Coleman medallist kicked 58 goals last season – his lowest return since 2009 – but was hailed for his unselfish play and ability to set up goals.
"We're looking to constantly challenge the opposition with our forward set-up, so Jack at stages will be deep, he'll certainly be up the ground and he might play some various other roles for us," Hardwick said.
"You look at a lot of forward lines - they're very flexible these days, and that's probably what we're after and got a little bit last year."
The Tigers forward line will be made more flexible by the recruitment of former Carlton big man Shaun Hampson, who has enjoyed a faultless pre-season.
Hardwick said the 25-year-old would not only add marking power in attack, but would allow ruck partner Ivan Maric to rotate forward and Ty Vickery to play as a permanent goalkicker.
"Those taller players we're very excited about," Hardwick said.
"We feel as though we can develop [Vickery] as a forward and he's capable of kicking 60 goals a year, which is exciting for us.
"Last year he obviously played 30-40 per cent through the ruck and he plays that role really well.
"Ivan is another player who, through the middle of the ground he's great, but he's also got the capability of marking the ball and kicking goals."
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-01-24/dusty-the-defender
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VIDEO: Hardwick interview discussing his expectations for 2014 ...
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/video/2014-01-24/hardwicks-expectations
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2014-01-24/tigers-search-for-youth-lift
* We’re probably looking for (players from) the draft three years ago to step up - the Reece Conca draft. We’re really looking forward to getting those players in, and even last year’s second and third round picks – guys like Matthew McDonough, Kamdyn McIntosh and Liam McBean. We’re really excited about how those guys are going to perform. The great thing is it’s certainly putting pressure on the players up front, which is always a good place to be.
* We’re not setting a ceiling, but we’re certainly setting a floor. We are like 17 other clubs who are looking to play finals again. The important thing for us is to get our group focussed on that early part of the season. The final eight rarely changes after about round 12 or 13. We’ve got to make sure we’re in the eight at the start of the year, and continue to win games.
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Are you stuffing kidding me, Martin in the backline, is it April fools already??
FFS, here we go again, the RFC manual on how to stuff up a perfectly good player.
He is a mid/forward attacking machine, I just don't believe it....
We forum people, do not turn Dusty into the new whipping boy when he doesn't perform week after week...
We have enough attacking backmen FFS!
:banghead :banghead :banghead
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Off season. Everything with a grain of salt.
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Off season. Everything with a grain of salt.
Well I hope so but we stuffed up Griff and nearly Deledio by doing this, chopping and changing them.
It's like trying to tame a great white to act like a poodle, just let the great White do what it does best... ;D
Do the Hawks, Pies, Swans or Dockers stuff with their best players and their positions??
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hawthorn have hodge and, it seems, mitchell of half back.
just out of curiosity, who are the plethora of attacking backmen we have?
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hawthorn have hodge and, it seems, mitchell of half back.
just out of curiosity, who are the plethora of attacking backmen we have?
"Plethora"???? al, I said "enough"... Hardwick has Houli, Conca, Vlastuin, all have been used there as well as Newman, Ellis, Batch (when he can be bothered performing). He still uses Deledio, Dea, Petterd and we have Grimes, Rance and Morris who all get the ball forward.
Why don't we put Arnott at FF..... :whistle
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newman played further up the ground and is on his last legs.
dea has not cemented a place in the side and will prolly be gone if he doesnt this year. his disposal is hardly what you want for an attacking backman. he is more a defender first.
pettard again is not damaging with his disposal
conca plays mainly as midfielder and lacks that long penetrating kick.
vlastuin is going through a similar learning phase as conca did down back with the view of playing midfield more often
ellis played more on the wing, and will probably continue to do so.
grimes, perhaps, when he is on the park, but while not bad with his disposal, doesent have that long penetrating kick you want from half back.
rance, well again doent have topline disosal.
morris, mainly plays a lock down role, but has been told to be more attacking, so that could change.
delideo has played more in the midfield of recent times, but i actually think he plays his best footy of half back.
so unless he goes back to half back we only have houli who plays that role regularly, and when he was out injured last season, we missed that drive he gives off half back.
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I will agree with Dea and Newman but I have just about watched all the replays from last year and those players were used down back a lot.
I just think Martin would be completely wasted down there in comparison to where he plays now..
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control half back and you control the game. the more i think about this the more i like it. a bloke with martins ability to win his own ball and then kick accurately 60 meters becomes a real weapon across half back.
I don't think he will play there predominately, long term anyway, but it gives another string to his bow.if it works it will mean we have one of the most dynamic players in the comp, who can provide the springboard for attack from half back, win plenty off ball in the middle, or go forward and kick goals.
surely that versatility has to be better for the team, and a nightmare for opposition coaches?
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control half back and you control the game. the more i think about this the more i like it. a bloke with martins ability to win his own ball and then kick accurately 60 meters becomes a real weapon across half back.
I don't think he will play there predominately, long term anyway, but it gives another string to his bow.if it works it will mean we have one of the most dynamic players in the comp, who can provide the springboard for attack from half back, win plenty off ball in the middle, or go forward and kick goals.
surely that versatility has to be better for the team, and a nightmare for opposition coaches?
Fair points al, I would hate to see him left there though, particularly if we start losing games, I can see his value there on certain occasions and during certain games. But the positive of this move could quite easily turn into a negative.....the team mix would have to be right and be used effectively against certain teams.
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control half back and you control the game. the more i think about this the more i like it. a bloke with martins ability to win his own ball and then kick accurately 60 meters becomes a real weapon across half back.
I don't think he will play there predominately, long term anyway, but it gives another string to his bow.if it works it will mean we have one of the most dynamic players in the comp, who can provide the springboard for attack from half back, win plenty off ball in the middle, or go forward and kick goals.
surely that versatility has to be better for the team, and a nightmare for opposition coaches?
Agree
And they won't play him there all the time,
And if it helps with building his tank then that's another win
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Dusty in the backline, why not. This kid will smash the crap out of the opposition.
Bring it on!
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I agree with WAT, Dusty is a proven goal kicking mid - if you want a play maker down back then put Lids back there
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Think it's more of a case that he will rotate through there at stages rather than make it is permanent role like a Morris or Houli. He may swap with Vlaustin or Lids or Newman during the game to rest him and keep our midfield fresh. This way they can move him forward or back depending on matchups. Could be a clever move because, at the very least, Dusty needs more work on his defensive pressure
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I agree with WAT, Dusty is a proven goal kicking mid - if you want a play maker down back then put Lids back there
I agree with you blokes. It's all well and good to be attacking off half back but first and foremost you have to defend, and Houli ain't the best at it and Martin IMO doesn't have the patience nor the dedication to play that roll. He is the most natural footballer we have and playing in the backline isn't for those really gifted players. He is unpredictable, reckless and dangerous with the ball in hand forward of centre, why anyone would want to take that advantage away from us just astounds me.
The other way to look at it is who is going to kick all our goals? If we take our best proven goal kicker in Jack away from goals and our second best proven goal kicker in Dusty away then you are taking a big risk just for the sake of it.
Like someone else said, play Lids there if need be, he gets tagged out of the game anyway if someone half decent runs with him, when in the midfield.
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Agree , in addition, when he is being tagged out of the game, the back flank or forward pocket might change the dynamics. I just hope he know who to man up tightly when he needs to !
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If there is a weakness in Martin's game, its his accountability, doesn't tackle and chase as hard as he could or should. Agree with most that we'd be better served with him mid and fwd and allow someone like Lids to play back to help Houli distribute
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There is nothing wrong with Dusty adding another arrow to his bow in fact we should be welcoming this.It will give us a backline and midfield with a myriad of options.....Let the opposition try and man up on us now,they wont know if they are martha or arthur
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or as our friends from collingwood say Arfur or Marfa
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If there is a weakness in Martin's game, its his accountability, doesn't tackle and chase as hard as he could or should. Agree with most that we'd be better served with him mid and fwd and allow someone like Lids to play back to help Houli distribute
id see that as an argument for teaching him to play as a backman.
i remember reading somewhere, someone claiming that hardwick wished he had done with martin what he did with conca in his first year.
not sure how much creedence there was in the statement, but I could see there truth to it, particularly taking into account what you say about martin/s defensive side.
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If there is a weakness in Martin's game, its his accountability, doesn't tackle and chase as hard as he could or should. Agree with most that we'd be better served with him mid and fwd and allow someone like Lids to play back to help Houli distribute
id see that as an argument for teaching him to play as a backman.
i remember reading somewhere, someone claiming that hardwick wished he had done with martin what he did with conca in his first year.
not sure how much creedence there was in the statement, but I could see there truth to it, particularly taking into account what you say about martin/s defensive side.
I thought about that as I was typing my post :) As long as it doesn't cost us a place in finals, i'd accept it for the greater good, but gut feel tells me it aint worth it(just my opinion) ...and I recall Hardwick making that statement a year or 2 ago.
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FWIW, I read into it that they are going to try and make Dusty a more 'all ground' type of mid-fielder instead of just a mid who goes forward. As Al said, makes him more rounded, improves him in a weak area and makes it much harder for opposition coaches to counter. Gives us more drive and attacking/rebounding options at different times during the game off half back, and also allows Vlastuin to spend more time rotating through the midfield, learning that role and adding to our midfield hamburger 'overflow'. Win win.
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You gotta ask the question, how well do we get the ball out of the backline?
Well apart from stuffing around with the ball too much and indecisive kicking to cause turn overs, there's the annoying and all too often kick that floats around the wing looking for an easy way to the forward line.
This practice is very predictable and other teams know it.
Imagine if you could for just a moment, an explosive unstoppable force carving canyons right through the central corridor straight to the forward line. How awesome would that be.
Apart from Deledio, Dusty is the only player on our list that has the capabilities of doing just that.
And that is something that would pay lots of money to see.
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You dont deploy a jet to do the mail run.
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A lot of this would be do do with improving his defensive game, which I welcome. How much time he actually spends down back is another story.
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VIDEO: Hardwick interview discussing his expectations for 2014 ...
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/video/2014-01-24/hardwicks-expectations
http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2014-01-24/tigers-search-for-youth-lift
* We’re probably looking for (players from) the draft three years ago to step up - the Reece Conca draft. We’re really looking forward to getting those players in, and even last year’s second and third round picks – guys like Matthew McDonough, Kamdyn McIntosh and Liam McBean. We’re really excited about how those guys are going to perform. The great thing is it’s certainly putting pressure on the players up front, which is always a good place to be.
* We’re not setting a ceiling, but we’re certainly setting a floor. We are like 17 other clubs who are looking to play finals again. The important thing for us is to get our group focussed on that early part of the season. The final eight rarely changes after about round 12 or 13. We’ve got to make sure we’re in the eight at the start of the year, and continue to win games.
keep going. theres only vickery left from 08 and in many ways we are still waiting for him to step up.
09 well theres pick 3 martin and then daylight.griffiths,astbury, dea, are whats left from the 10 draft.
10 conca well hes been solid im not sure hes shown what a top 10 pick should have. whats left is batchelor and helbig.
11 ellis, then theres elton and arnot.elton being tall its pointless expecting much but development.
12 expectations should be low especially with the talls.
13 similar to 12 except we only took one kid so expectations should be low on him and we should be expecting significant output from 24 yr olds.
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on martin im pretty sure the defensive side of his game has been poor due to the lack of motor.seems to me most times having worked hard for the ball theres little left to defend with.
imo as his tank gets up to standard so will the defensive side of his game.
the area id be working hard on to have him improve is contested possesions the count is just too lobsided.
also imo the two players who should be being groomed at hb are mcintosh and dea. id also like to see what helbig could offer back there.
finally how many sml/med /or tall running defenders do we need. batchelor, dea, deledio, ellis, houli, mcintosh, morris, newman, petterd, vlastuin, and now martin. plus grimes really needs to add some sort of rebounding/running component to his game.
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Maybe the move to the defense may have something to do with his accuracy in kicking for goal the past couple of years.
2013 goals 23 behinds 32
2012 goals 23 behinds 23
Not much use of being forward if he can't convert.
Maybe it's about his clearances and clangers (for the position he's playing).
2013 clearances 58 clangers 63
2012 clearances 67 clangers 62
He may be able clear the ball, but his use is of it is quite dismal.
What ever the Coaches reasoning is surely and hopefully for the best.
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The more positions a mid can play and the more versatile mids you have, the better.
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I think the moving to defense thing is just some dribble thrown out there to past the time until footy starts again
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I think its an attempt to turn him into a hodge. Also he loses the tag during games if he is down back so he might impaxt games a bit more
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With the 120 inter-changes a game now all teams are looking for ways to optimize their midfields. The forward line has been used to 'rest' ruck men in the past and midfielders more recently. Now it looks like defense will be used as another place to house midfielders. I say house rather than rest because I feel you can't rest to the same degree in the D50 as you can in the F50 because you will be terribly exposed. Perhaps the midfielders who move back will be played on the resting opposition mids.
Morris is will not be part of the rotations and Houli would be unlikely (though I feel he could move to a wing?!). That leaves Newman, Deledio, Vlaustin who rotate through there. King doesnt rotate but Cotchin and Martin rotating through the forward line. Does Jackson, Ellis, Grigg, Conca or Foley rotate?
Martin has not been as successful resting in the forward line this year. The opposition have woken up to the wrestling tactics of Martin. The facts are that when Martin has the ball in his hands he is extremely creative and sensational at switching the play. If you have both Houli and Martin streaming out of the back line oppositions will not be able to defend both and consequently both players will get more of the ball.
The other factor is the sheer amount of mid/forwards. We want to be more unpredictable up forward and Dusty has become too predictable. Use his strengths in the best way you can through the middle and running off the half back.
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Stripes, dusty had over 50 shots at goal, not bad for a part time fwd... The only problem he had and the only thing that stopped him getting AA was his poor conversion...
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True tony but many were long range attempts that could have been passes. When he is in the midfield he is more dangerous and capable at scoring goals than when he is resting forward. I think the theory will be to share his time between the backline and midfield in 2014 so he will be able to run out games better and use the ball more potently when he isn't in the F50.
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With 15 of the opposition team in the D50 and three of those on Jackie boy 60m goal kicking kids should be encouraged to kick long not pass off
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I just don't see it stripes, reckon he is unstoppable when resting fwd and with his skills and players dbl and triple teaming jack you'd want your best kickers taking shots like chuck mentioned.
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I just don't see it stripes, reckon he is unstoppable when resting fwd and with his skills and players dbl and triple teaming jack you'd want your best kickers taking shots like chuck mentioned.
If Dusty was a good kick for goal I would agree with you, but as I said earlier, his shots on goal are far to wasteful, even if the excuse is he had more shots from 50+ .
If you want someone reliable shooting for goal you want Kingy doing that, as well as vickery, even Griggs conversion rate is improving and still better than dusty.
The kid can kick 60 off a step with good accuracy (as long as it's not at goal), so let him do the damage across the middle, which is where we lack a lot of intensity. He can do that without having to just bomb away.
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I just don't see it stripes, reckon he is unstoppable when resting fwd and with his skills and players dbl and triple teaming jack you'd want your best kickers taking shots like chuck mentioned.
If Dusty was a good kick for goal I would agree with you, but as I said earlier, his shots on goal are far to wasteful, even if the excuse is he had more shots from 50+ .
If you want someone reliable shooting for goal you want Kingy doing that, as well as vickery, even Griggs conversion rate is improving and still better than dusty.
The kid can kick 60 off a step with good accuracy (as long as it's not at goal), so let him do the damage across the middle, which is where we lack a lot of intensity. He can do that without having to just bomb away.
Everyone goes through badpatches with kicking for goal, even Jack who is one of the better set shots in the competition missed his fair share of sitters this season Doesn't mean he's a bad kick and shouldn't have shots at goal. dusty is a quality kick and if he has another 50 shots in 2014 odds are he'll kick more than he misses.
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People are too quick to label these days, the kid can clearly kick, it's not an issue
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People are too quick to label these days, the kid can clearly kick, it's not an issue
Yep it's obvious, any perceived bad kicking is just because he is loading them up from 50 out
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Dusty doesn't lead we'll or take many contested marks in the F50 in 2013. We used to clear the forward line to try and exploit a smaller bodied midfielder against Dusty. In 2013 opposition teams planned for this and as a result Dusty didn't have the same impact while resting forward as he has had in the past.
When Dusty had space in the midfield he was dangerous. Running into the forward line from the midfield he created plenty of scoring opportunities. Due to the difficulty of where these opportunities occurring from he missed as many times as he goaled.
By moving Dusty to the half back when he is not rotating through the midfield, I'm not convinced his goal numbers will drop much but his ability to cut through opposition zones and create scoring chains will be magnified. I can't see it being a negative especially given the sheer amount of natural small forwards and attacking midfielders in our squad this year.
Remember too that once the opposition figured out how to bloke Jacks jump we had to change tactics and roles to ensure Jacks talents could still be utilized in 2013 without reducing our scoring capabilities. Changing Dustys role to rotate through defense could be best for him and,more importantly, the side. We again become less predictable.
The sky isn't falling I assure you. Lets see if it even eventuates at all yet and if it does give it a few weeks before making judgement. :thumbsup
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Morris. Grimes. Chaplin
Martin. AlexRance. Deledio.
Ellis. Cotchin. Jackson.
Knights. Riewoldt. SEdwards.
Vickery. Griffiths. King.
Maric. Vlastuin. Conca.
Hampson. Newman. Houli. Foley.
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He's a goal kicking mid - how many of those are there in the comp?
I reckon we build on what he's already doing.
I'm sure he can be taught to lead and his kicking will improve as his fitness improves. I'm looking forward to seeing him play a Mark Ricciuto type role down the track
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He's a goal kicking mid - how many of those are there in the comp?
I reckon we build on what he's already doing.
I'm sure he can be taught to lead and his kicking will improve as his fitness improves. I'm looking forward to seeing him play a Mark Ricciuto type role down the track
This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I think people are missing the point. Forget about how good he can be down back with ball in hand, it's when he hasn't got the plum that would concern me. Just cannot see him with an 'opponent first' attitude. And that's what a backmens first thought should be.
Anyway I think it's a bit of BS.
What would we all think if the story was about Cotch playing across halfback?
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according to alex rance, in this story, we did use cotch there at times last year.
I love it how people think a coach should pander to a blokes weakness, rather than challenge them to face it head on and improve.
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Al, I wouldn't assume its a case of pandering - moreso weighing up the pros and cons of both options.
They are both good options just a matter of what the works best for the team
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i'm talking about the view that he should not be played in the backline because he has a poor defensive mindset.
To me that is pandering to a weakness - avoiding putting the player into a situation where he has to change his mindset and rectify a flaw
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i'm talking about the view that he should not be played in the backline because he has a poor defensive mindset.
To me that is pandering to a weakness - avoiding putting the player into a situation where he has to change his mindset and rectify a flaw
Some players are good at what they do and that's that, some players will never change, that's why they are left in their position where they can be most damaging. Martin is very damaging where he is, why spend half a season with him in the backline if it doesn't suit his style of play. Leave him where he is most damaging and where he can win games for us..that for mine is as a mid attacking goal kicker!!
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so just accept him as defensively poor player and let others take up the slack?
yeah, thats the culture that will get the best of each and every player and lead to success.
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so just accept him as defensively poor player and let others take up the slack?
yeah, thats the culture that will get the best of each and every player and lead to success.
Like I said, some players are like that, like it or not, that's the way they are. Some players are not suited to certain positions or roles.
There is no reason that Dusty cant learn his defensive side from his current position/role...nothing to do with culture.
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The RFC should never ever accept second best scenarios.If we can get even 1% extra from Dusty then that's a win for him and the RFC
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Martin is very damaging where he is, why spend half a season with him in the backline if it doesn't suit his style of play. Leave him where he is most damaging and where he can win games for us..that for mine is as a mid attacking goal kicker!!
Martin CAN be very damaging but he can also go missing for large chunks of many games and that doesn't work in the team's best interests at all. To give him a wider scope of talent and purpose seems to me to be making him a more consistently unpredictable and beneficial asset, and that's not detracting from what he does best but (hopefully) removes some of the periods when he's not productive.
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Martin is very damaging where he is, why spend half a season with him in the backline if it doesn't suit his style of play. Leave him where he is most damaging and where he can win games for us..that for mine is as a mid attacking goal kicker!!
Martin CAN be very damaging but he can also go missing for large chunks of many games and that doesn't work in the team's best interests at all. To give him a wider scope of talent and purpose seems to me to be making him a more consistently unpredictable and beneficial asset, and that's not detracting from what he does best but (hopefully) removes some of the periods when he's not productive.
FINE, if that's is the way it eventuates, but if it doesn't what then??? Why waste the time??
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so just accept him as defensively poor player and let others take up the slack?
yeah, thats the culture that will get the best of each and every player and lead to success.
Like I said, some players are like that, like it or not, that's the way they are. Some players are not suited to certain positions or roles.
There is no reason that Dusty cant learn his defensive side from his current position/role...nothing to do with culture.
how long has dusty been playing his current role, and how well has he developed his defensively side in that time? To just accept a flaw in a persons game, one that is in the head rather than skill related, is most definitely a culture thing.
but lets look at it another way.
Dusty is a dynamic midfielder who can play forward and kick goals, yet has a defensive game that is not as good as it could be.
Hardick and co, it appears, would like him to become a midfielder who can play forward and kick goals, as well as being able to play an attacking role off halfback where he can use his long penetrating kick to great advantage, while also improving his defensive game. They feel that with the interchange restrictions coming in that the more versatile a player is, the better it for the team in terms of rotating midfielders
But you think the current form of Martin is a better and more valuable player than more rounded, versatile, and complete player that they have a vision of him hopefully becoming?
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FINE, if that's is the way it eventuates, but if it doesn't what then??? Why waste the time??
So you don't try to improve a player just because it may not work?
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so just accept him as defensively poor player and let others take up the slack?
yeah, thats the culture that will get the best of each and every player and lead to success.
Like I said, some players are like that, like it or not, that's the way they are. Some players are not suited to certain positions or roles.
There is no reason that Dusty cant learn his defensive side from his current position/role...nothing to do with culture.
how long has dusty been playing his current role, and how well has he developed his defensively side in that time? To just accept a flaw in a persons game, one that is in the head rather than skill related, is most definitely a culture thing.
but lets look at it another way.
Dusty is a dynamic midfielder who can play forward and kick goals, yet has a defensive game that is not as good as it could be.
Hardick and co, it appears, would like him to become a midfielder who can play forward and kick goals, as well as being able to play an attacking role off halfback where he can use his long penetrating kick to great advantage, while also improving his defensive game. They feel that with the interchange restrictions coming in that the more versatile a player is, the better it for the team in terms of rotating midfielders
But you think the current form of Martin is a better and more valuable player than more rounded, versatile, and complete player that they have a vision of him hopefully becoming?
"But you think the current form of Martin is a better and more valuable player than more rounded, versatile, and complete player that they have a vision of him hopefully becoming?"
No, I didn't say that, can you guarantee that he will and up that player and at what cost will this at?? Will we waste half a season on him, lose games as a result??? It goes both ways al.
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:lol @ "at what cost."
and that is exactly what you saying. you just want things left how they are rather than trying to improve them.
to not try to improve just because you are afraid of failure, is failure, dont you think?
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:lol @ "at what cost."
and that is exactly what you saying. you just want things left how they are rather than trying to improve them.
to not try to improve just because you are afraid of failure, is failure, dont you think?
Why fix what's not broken, he may improve his defensive style he may not.
I have said what I said, I prefer him as a mid attacking goal kicker, not a backman. That's it for me like it or lump it. We tried to turn Rance into a forward and that didn't work, Griff doesn't know where to look these days, he's has been back and forward in every game. Jacks move up the ground a couple of years ago didn't work.
I am happy to leave Dusty where he is and develop his game through his strengths.
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You don't need to play in defence to improve your defensive game.
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You don't need to play in defence to improve your defensive game.
:clapping...try getting that across... :lol
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Has he been asked what his plan b is yet?
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You don't need to play in defence to improve your defensive game.
Not always, no, but it is a very effective way to improve someones defensive game who otherwise "doesn't get it"
nor is this the only reason they are doing it.
:clapping...try getting that across... :lol
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:lol @ "at what cost."
and that is exactly what you saying. you just want things left how they are rather than trying to improve them.
to not try to improve just because you are afraid of failure, is failure, dont you think?
Why fix what's not broken, he may improve his defensive style he may not.
I have said what I said, I prefer him as a mid attacking goal kicker, not a backman. That's it for me like it or lump it. We tried to turn Rance into a forward and that didn't work, Griff doesn't know where to look these days, he's has been back and forward in every game. Jacks move up the ground a couple of years ago didn't work.
I am happy to leave Dusty where he is and develop his game through his strengths.
We tried to turn Rance into a forward ????????????
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:lol @ "at what cost."
and that is exactly what you saying. you just want things left how they are rather than trying to improve them.
to not try to improve just because you are afraid of failure, is failure, dont you think?
Why fix what's not broken, he may improve his defensive style he may not.
I have said what I said, I prefer him as a mid attacking goal kicker, not a backman. That's it for me like it or lump it. We tried to turn Rance into a forward and that didn't work, Griff doesn't know where to look these days, he's has been back and forward in every game. Jacks move up the ground a couple of years ago didn't work.
I am happy to leave Dusty where he is and develop his game through his strengths.
We tried to turn Rance into a forward ????????????
Yeah, he trained all pre season there once, cant remember the year, we actually had him in the forward line in a few games too....didn't work!!
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Why fix what's not broken, he may improve his defensive style he may not.
It is broken WAT, that's the point. He is only about 50% of the player he could/should be and his brief foray into the world of self-valuation at this year's trade period showed what other clubs thought. He has all the talent in the world but he has significant shortcomings as a topline midfielder and I think that is what the club are trying to do - get the most and best out of him. It seems they have identified a role rotating through defence as well as attack as a way of improving his output and the team structures, and that makes sense to me. All clubs re-define player's roles over the course of their careers - some work, some don't - but I do know that the club that sits on it's ringhole and doesn't seek improvement in all areas from all players is the club that is going to be left behind. Hello Richmond circa past 40 years anyone??
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Why fix what's not broken, he may improve his defensive style he may not.
It is broken WAT, that's the point. He is only about 50% of the player he could/should be and his brief foray into the world of self-valuation at this year's trade period showed what other clubs thought. He has all the talent in the world but he has significant shortcomings as a topline midfielder and I think that is what the club are trying to do - get the most and best out of him. It seems they have identified a role rotating through defence as well as attack as a way of improving his output and the team structures, and that makes sense to me. All clubs re-define player's roles over the course of their careers - some work, some don't - but I do know that the club that sits on it's ringhole and doesn't seek improvement in all areas from all players is the club that is going to be left behind. Hello Richmond circa past 40 years anyone??
So last year was a broken year for him was it?? I agree with some others, he could quite easily develop his defensive game form the position he plays now and be just as damaging as he has been. Stick him in the backline and he wont be as damaging in the center of forward while he spends time developing his defensive side.... :-\
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Why fix what's not broken, he may improve his defensive style he may not.
It is broken WAT, that's the point. He is only about 50% of the player he could/should be and his brief foray into the world of self-valuation at this year's trade period showed what other clubs thought. He has all the talent in the world but he has significant shortcomings as a topline midfielder and I think that is what the club are trying to do - get the most and best out of him. It seems they have identified a role rotating through defence as well as attack as a way of improving his output and the team structures, and that makes sense to me. All clubs re-define player's roles over the course of their careers - some work, some don't - but I do know that the club that sits on it's ringhole and doesn't seek improvement in all areas from all players is the club that is going to be left behind. Hello Richmond circa past 40 years anyone??
So last year was a broken year for him was it?? I agree with some others, he could quite easily develop his defensive game form the position he plays now and be just as damaging as he has been. Stick him in the backline and he wont be as damaging in the center of forward while he spends time developing his defensive side.... :-\
Yeah, I believe it was. I don't think he achieved any where near his potential and went missing for long periods in a number of games. I think he has more potential than almost any other player on our list but unless he is challenged and made work hard outside his comfort zones then I fear he may become just another 'what might have been'. I don't think the coach has any intention of making him a full time defender but to have him as another option running off half back with a run and penetrating kick into our 50 at different times in the game makes us just that much more dangerous and hard to coach against. I don't think they're treating Dusty like a new kid needing to learn his craft from the backline first but I think they see the value in adding to his and the team's arsenal by running him through the backline at various times. And in this Brave New World of limited rotations, the ability to move your midfielders all around the ground might be a way of coping with this rule, and if this turns out to be the case then it might be incumbent on Dusty to make himself more versatile if he wants to be the very best he can. I'm sure the coaches aren't idiots and won't persevere with the plan if Dusty fails miserably to connect with it but I know that the team has strengthened it's attacking options over the summer and are probably now looking to the midfield as a whole to be the defensive and offensive glue that binds them together for a much more serious tilt at a flag, and to do that they will be looking for more versatility, unpredictability and accountability from each and every one of them.
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Why fix what's not broken, he may improve his defensive style he may not.
It is broken WAT, that's the point. He is only about 50% of the player he could/should be and his brief foray into the world of self-valuation at this year's trade period showed what other clubs thought. He has all the talent in the world but he has significant shortcomings as a topline midfielder and I think that is what the club are trying to do - get the most and best out of him. It seems they have identified a role rotating through defence as well as attack as a way of improving his output and the team structures, and that makes sense to me. All clubs re-define player's roles over the course of their careers - some work, some don't - but I do know that the club that sits on it's ringhole and doesn't seek improvement in all areas from all players is the club that is going to be left behind. Hello Richmond circa past 40 years anyone??
So last year was a broken year for him was it?? I agree with some others, he could quite easily develop his defensive game form the position he plays now and be just as damaging as he has been. Stick him in the backline and he wont be as damaging in the center of forward while he spends time developing his defensive side.... :-\
Yeah, I believe it was. I don't think he achieved any where near his potential and went missing for long periods in a number of games. I think he has more potential than almost any other player on our list but unless he is challenged and made work hard outside his comfort zones then I fear he may become just another 'what might have been'. I don't think the coach has any intention of making him a full time defender but to have him as another option running off half back with a run and penetrating kick into our 50 at different times in the game makes us just that much more dangerous and hard to coach against. I don't think they're treating Dusty like a new kid needing to learn his craft from the backline first but I think they see the value in adding to his and the team's arsenal by running him through the backline at various times. And in this Brave New World of limited rotations, the ability to move your midfielders all around the ground might be a way of coping with this rule, and if this turns out to be the case then it might be incumbent on Dusty to make himself more versatile if he wants to be the very best he can. I'm sure the coaches aren't idiots and won't persevere with the plan if Dusty fails miserably to connect with it but I know that the team has strengthened it's attacking options over the summer and are probably now looking to the midfield as a whole to be the defensive and offensive glue that binds them together for a much more serious tilt at a flag, and to do that they will be looking for more versatility, unpredictability and accountability from each and every one of them.
:bow :thumbsup ;D......leave him where he is.... ;)
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Yeah, I believe it was. I don't think he achieved any where near his potential and went missing for long periods in a number of games. I think he has more potential than almost any other player on our list but unless he is challenged and made work hard outside his comfort zones then I fear he may become just another 'what might have been'. I don't think the coach has any intention of making him a full time defender but to have him as another option running off half back with a run and penetrating kick into our 50 at different times in the game makes us just that much more dangerous and hard to coach against. I don't think they're treating Dusty like a new kid needing to learn his craft from the backline first but I think they see the value in adding to his and the team's arsenal by running him through the backline at various times. And in this Brave New World of limited rotations, the ability to move your midfielders all around the ground might be a way of coping with this rule, and if this turns out to be the case then it might be incumbent on Dusty to make himself more versatile if he wants to be the very best he can. I'm sure the coaches aren't idiots and won't persevere with the plan if Dusty fails miserably to connect with it but I know that the team has strengthened it's attacking options over the summer and are probably now looking to the midfield as a whole to be the defensive and offensive glue that binds them together for a much more serious tilt at a flag, and to do that they will be looking for more versatility, unpredictability and accountability from each and every one of them.
Great post smokey :thumbsup
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TAKE NOTE!!!!!
So we won't miss him in attack as a "MID-FORWARD"..... He is above average in his current role.... Why stuff with him? :banghead
Richmond
Elite: none
Above average: Dustin Martin (mid-forward), Jack Riewoldt, Aaron Edwards, Ty Vickery
Top 5 goalkickers in 2013: J Riewoldt 58, T Vickery 27, D Martin 23, J King 21, L McGuane 20
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"Why stuff with him?"
The answers (note plural) to that question are in the OP, in the interview with Dan Richardson on SEN, and has been explained by numerous posters in their own words.
Obviously you don't get it, and never will, and are happy to accept not quite best as good enough.
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"Why stuff with him?"
The answers (note plural) to that question are in the OP, in the interview with Dan Richardson on SEN, and has been explained by numerous posters in their own words.
Obviously you don't get it, and never will, and are happy to accept not quite best as good enough.
:clapping....the expert.... :lol
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To be fair Al, that last sentence isn't necessary.
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TAKE NOTE!!!!!
So we won't miss him in attack as a "MID-FORWARD"..... He is above average in his current role.... Why stuff with him? :banghead
Richmond
Elite: none
Above average: Dustin Martin (mid-forward), Jack Riewoldt, Aaron Edwards, Ty Vickery
Top 5 goalkickers in 2013: J Riewoldt 58, T Vickery 27, D Martin 23, J King 21, L McGuane 20
You're using that list to quantify him? The same list that says Angus Monfries is elite?
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Yet, ironically, he wanted a 184cm bloke on that list to play defence on a genuine tall forward, just because for two quarters against the wind in one game, when hardwick put numbers behind the ball, he played a similar role to what martin will learn off half back,
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Yet, ironically, he wanted a 184cm bloke on that list to play defence on a genuine tall forward, just because for two quarters against the wind in one game, when hardwick put numbers behind the ball, he played a similar role to what martin will learn off half back,
:angel:
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id also like to see what helbig could offer back there.
:banghead :banghead why move a player from where he played as a juniour
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FFS give me a genuine backman. :banghead
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Thoughts so far?? I don't like it, miss his run forward and his opportunity to kick goals!
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Demott just nailed it..."he is a devastating midfielder so why take him out of there"
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Martin looking better and is more damaging now he has been moved
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Sack the coach
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Sack the coach
Don't be a stuffhead JR, two posts saying the same poo, make a decent comment or stuff off!
Has the move worked?....
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Damien, play Martin back at YOUR peril. You have been warned!
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Do not want
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Sack the coach
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Do not want
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Coach the sack.
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Can sort of see the logic in playing Martin back, but I'm not a fan of the move. If we had four of him I'd be all for it.
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Didn't work, won't work!!!
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Martin in the back line was hardly the primarily problem
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Martin in the back line was hardly the primarily problem
Didn't say it was!!
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Can sort of see the logic in playing Martin back, but I'm not a fan of the move. If we had four of him I'd be all for it.
:bow
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The only ones that would be happy to see Dusty playing in the backline would be opposition coaches. He's most useful to us and more a threat to the opposition playing through the midfield and forward of centre.
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The only ones that would be happy to see Dusty playing in the backline would be opposition coaches. He's most useful to us and more a threat to the opposition playing through the midfield and forward of centre.
Yep and that was more than evident last night.
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martin picked up 1/2 dozen possessions in the 1st across 1/2 back, but let himself down with his kicking.
i suppose we could blame that on him playing in that role, but......
barely sighted him at all in the second, not sure how much he was even on the ground.
played in the middle for a lot of the second half, but seemed to get better as the game wore on. a bit surprising that, for the first real hit out.
The simple concept that some just cant seem to grasp, is that although he may spend considerable time off half back initially, to learn the role, in the longer term it will be mainly as part of the rotations, of which the nature will changed due to interchange caps.
But i suppose thats already been mentioned plenty, and if it aint sunk in by now.....
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martin picked up 1/2 dozen possessions in the 1st across 1/2 back, but let himself down with his kicking.
i suppose we could blame that on him playing in that role, but......
barely sighted him at all in the second, not sure how much he was even on the ground.
played in the middle for a lot of the second half, but seemed to get better as the game wore on. a bit surprising that, for the first real hit out.
The simple concept that some just cant seem to grasp, is that although he may spend considerable time off half back initially, to learn the role, in the longer term it will be mainly as part of the rotations, of which the nature will changed due to interchange caps.
But i suppose thats already been mentioned plenty, and if it aint sunk in by now.....
"Learn the role" to the detriment of the game....The simple concept that some just cant seem to grasp.
But i suppose thats already been mentioned plenty, and if it aint sunk in by now......
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Dust will get better of the half back. Really it's just a ploy to allow him to run out games in the midfield later in the contest. They have plenty of blokes to rotate through the forward line but few through the backline who can be as damaging with his switch play as Dusty
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Dusty was one of very few positives last night
;D
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Dusty was one of very few positives last night
;D
Yes, when he played his usual role.. ;D
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martin picked up 1/2 dozen possessions in the 1st across 1/2 back, but let himself down with his kicking.
i suppose we could blame that on him playing in that role, but......
barely sighted him at all in the second, not sure how much he was even on the ground.
played in the middle for a lot of the second half, but seemed to get better as the game wore on. a bit surprising that, for the first real hit out.
The simple concept that some just cant seem to grasp, is that although he may spend considerable time off half back initially, to learn the role, in the longer term it will be mainly as part of the rotations, of which the nature will changed due to interchange caps.
But i suppose thats already been mentioned plenty, and if it aint sunk in by now.....
I wasn't at the game but there didn't appear to be a massive change in his defensive game
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didnt appear to be much change to anyones game in the positive, so make of that what you will.
Maybe that means claw was right?
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martin picked up 1/2 dozen possessions in the 1st across 1/2 back, but let himself down with his kicking.
i suppose we could blame that on him playing in that role, but......
barely sighted him at all in the second, not sure how much he was even on the ground.
played in the middle for a lot of the second half, but seemed to get better as the game wore on. a bit surprising that, for the first real hit out.
The simple concept that some just cant seem to grasp, is that although he may spend considerable time off half back initially, to learn the role, in the longer term it will be mainly as part of the rotations, of which the nature will changed due to interchange caps.
But i suppose thats already been mentioned plenty, and if it aint sunk in by now.....
"Learn the role" to the detriment of the game....The simple concept that some just cant seem to grasp.
But i suppose thats already been mentioned plenty, and if it aint sunk in by now......
so becoming a better all rounded footballer is detrimental in the whole shceme of things?.
I suppose some short term narrow minded thinkers would disagree, but often a little short term pain for long term gain is a good trade off.
Lets ignore the fact he racked up possessions early but stuffed his kicking, but if he had nailed a couple of 60m passes, like he can when on song, from half back it cuts the game wide open for us.
But nah who wants to ever see anything like that, everything was just perfect the way it was.
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Can Dustin not learn to be better defensively without playing across half back? I don't really care if he's back there but it is possible to get defensive qualities without actually playing down back.
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Let's face it, as my old mate and excellent RFC judge, WAT was the first to point out, Hardwick is a good bloke and good coach during the week but a terrible match day coach.
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Demott just nailed it..."he is a devastating midfielder so why take him out of there"
Nab cups the best place to test it out and see if its worth going along with. Who knows he may get used to it and become even more damaging
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Dusty down back, dusty up forward...As long as he is playing well then it's much of a muchness to me.
A 60m through ball from half back can be just as damaging as a 60m pot shot at goal.
If it ain't working then Dimma will move him, but if he's on song then he'l be hurting the opposition, wherever he is.
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.???????
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Fail. Doesn't have the concentration to take kick outs.
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Yep, we need him in the centre pumping the ball into the forward line and kicking goals. Anyone can rack up possessions across half back, particularly when the ball was coming in like it did last night.
Get him the stuff back where he belongs, look at the Blues set up, they haven't stuffed around with any player like we have. We have stuffed Martin and Jack around, we stuffed Griff up since he came to the club and we never played Matt White as a regular either but he has been on the ground all night tonight for Port with great results...
What are we doing????
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Yep, we need him in the centre pumping the ball into the forward line and kicking goals. Anyone can rack up possessions across half back, particularly when the ball was coming in like it did last night.
Get him the stuff back where he belongs, look at the Blues set up, they haven't stuffed around with any player like we have. We have stuffed Martin and Jack around, we stuffed Griff up since he came to the club and we never played Matt White as a regular either but he has been on the ground all night tonight for Port with great results...
What are we doing????
Are you serious here are two names without thinking that hard; Gibbs and Yarren
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Yep, we need him in the centre pumping the ball into the forward line and kicking goals. Anyone can rack up possessions across half back, particularly when the ball was coming in like it did last night.
Get him the stuff back where he belongs, look at the Blues set up, they haven't stuffed around with any player like we have. We have stuffed Martin and Jack around, we stuffed Griff up since he came to the club and we never played Matt White as a regular either but he has been on the ground all night tonight for Port with great results...
What are we doing????
Are you serious here are two names without thinking that hard; Gibbs and Yarren
Are you watching the game???
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Gibbs has had 5 goal assists and 3 shots at goal .....where's he changed roles??? Martin??
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Yep, we need him in the centre pumping the ball into the forward line and kicking goals. Anyone can rack up possessions across half back, particularly when the ball was coming in like it did last night.
Get him the stuff back where he belongs, look at the Blues set up, they haven't stuffed around with any player like we have. We have stuffed Martin and Jack around, we stuffed Griff up since he came to the club and we never played Matt White as a regular either but he has been on the ground all night tonight for Port with great results...
What are we doing????
Are you serious here are two names without thinking that hard; Gibbs and Yarren
Yarren runs through the centre and kicks a goal.....not much change there pal!
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You said the Blues have not stuffed around any players with their set up.
That is just pure BS as Yarren and Gibbs have played mid, forward and back.
Why do you have so much trouble understanding what you have posted?
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You said the Blues have not stuffed around any players with their set up.
That is just pure BS as Yarren and Gibbs have played mid, forward and back.
Why do you have so much trouble understanding what you have posted?
They were on the ball , that's why they were forward back and mid. The play a role, they haven't been completely shifted into a new position or role...
Wake up Geoff!
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remember when the blues tried to move betts into the middle and a year later he was playing for Adelaide? good times, good times :cheers
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You said the Blues have not stuffed around any players with their set up.
That is just pure BS as Yarren and Gibbs have played mid, forward and back.
Why do you have so much trouble understanding what you have posted?
They were on the ball , that's why they were forward back and mid. The play a role, they haven't been completely shifted into a new position or role...
Wake up Geoff!
In all fairness to Chuck, had Ratten stayed at the Blues, Gibbs would not be the 5 goal assists, 3 shots on goal player he was on the weekend. He was never allowed to settle in a position. Malthouse saved Gibbs career.
For me personally I am a bit worried about Martin playing in defence. Why would you play such an explosive player in defence? Opposition players poo themselves when he's in the forward 50 and when he has ball in hand you can be almost guaranteed he could fend off stampede of wildebeests and kick a goal on the run. I feel he's wasted in defence. I know Sam Mitchell plays well in CHB and so does Hodge but Martin is not a Mitchell or Hodge.
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i think a big part of this debate comes down to how important you see the half back line the whole scheme of things.
I think some people still have an outdated image of a defender as some dour type who has the sole job of stopping their opponent.
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some people have that outdated image Alligator, others know the value of good half backs, but those with a clue in either camp know that dusty at half back is shizen and he should be onball or forward :thumbsup
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yeah we all know after a couple of practice games and one game where everyone who played crapola.
Ok, based on one or two games, we dont play dusty at half back as part of the rotations. that means blokes like jackson, the chip chimp and thomas are accross half back while dusty is forward twiddling his thumbs because the opposition press is keeping the ball in their forward half.
notice how no one has complained about how useless cotchin is across half back with his dinky little up and under kicks trying to slice open the oppositions press?
yet up forward he is almost as damaging as martin, while martin could be infinitely more damaging with his long penetrating kicks that cotch will ever be at half back.
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You said the Blues have not stuffed around any players with their set up.
That is just pure BS as Yarren and Gibbs have played mid, forward and back.
Why do you have so much trouble understanding what you have posted?
They were on the ball , that's why they were forward back and mid. The play a role, they haven't been completely shifted into a new position or role...
Wake up Geoff!
No they weren't, are you actually watching their games or just the highlight reels
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I can see where you're coming from Al, but from what I've seen he looks lost in the backline. Was so much more damaging forward of the centre the other night.
I just think he's a naturally attacking player, like Jack.
Lids plays the backline well. No qualms dropping him back there when needed. I don't think it's for Dust tho.
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Any of the brain surgeons think he is still better in the backline??????
Absolute match winner this kid!!
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who ever said he was better in the backline?
Is that what you actually believe or do think that by making stuff it give you cred?
How good was it early in the last watching us struggle to clear the ball from half back and Martin twiddling his thumbs deep in the forward line?
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Any of the brain surgeons think he is still better in the backline??????
Absolute match winner this kid!!
Loved a passage of play in backline where we chipped the ball around and it ended up in Martins hands and he pulled the pin and hit someone up just outside fifty just to get the ball back and dob one for himself
Doesn't matter where he plays he's a star
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Loved a passage of play in backline where we chipped the ball around and it ended up in Martins hands and he pulled the pin and hit someone up just outside fifty just to get the ball back and dob one for himself
Doesn't matter where he plays he's a star
Exactly - great point
It's actually that sort of play that makes the idea of playing him off the backline at times a massive bonus.
Said it before if they get him to use his strengths and his team mates play to those strengths when he's rebounding off HB then the benefits are huge
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get him to use his strengths and his team mates play to those strengths
In dungeons and dragons circles we call this 'min/maxing' (http://www.rw-designer.com/icon-view/8345.png)
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Middle and forward! Leave him there.
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serious question here. just how much time did he spend down back, seems to me watching from 4ooo k away very little.
i actually thought his output was a little down but what was most pleasing was he won a fair bit of c/p for once.
just on the h/b thingy.
we dont have an abundance quality mids but we do have an abundance of decent h/b options. i think we cut our noses off to spite our face when we play him back.
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serious question here. just how much time did he spend down back, seems to me watching from 4ooo k away very little.
i actually thought his output was a little down but what was most pleasing was he won a fair bit of c/p for once.
just on the h/b thingy.
we dont have an abundance quality mids but we do have an abundance of decent h/b options. i think we cut our noses off to spite our face when we play him back.
You're right he doesn't spend much time back he's thrown around the ground to provide flexibility which some people can't seem to grasp.
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Middle and forward for me.
Match winner.
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serious question here. just how much time did he spend down back, seems to me watching from 4ooo k away very little.
i actually thought his output was a little down but what was most pleasing was he won a fair bit of c/p for once.
just on the h/b thingy.
we dont have an abundance quality mids but we do have an abundance of decent h/b options. i think we cut our noses off to spite our face when we play him back.
You're right he doesn't spend much time back he's thrown around the ground to provide flexibility which some people can't seem to grasp.
Well after the round 1 calamity he barely played there this game. Hardly earth-shattering stuff.