One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: big tone on May 05, 2009, 11:27:55 PM
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Have we as a footy club jeopardised the chance for success trying to get rid of the tag of a club that sacks coaches?
Over the last 9 and a bit years we have employed 2 coaches that have not worked out. But surely with where we are at at the moment, should we keep Terry on just to dispel our bad record of coaches. I think not!
Sometimes the toughest decisions are not the easiest and may not make you look that good but i think at the moment we are taking the easy option to keep the media at bay. In the past we would have asked Terry to step down or sack him because he has failed to deliver what he promised, and that’s success. I thought that when TW was appointed that the 5 years would see us as premiers or at the very least fighting for one. Not just trying to scape into the finals in his last year.
Our past administrations have been ruthless and would have sacked him by now because average performances were not tolerated at the Richmond footy club regardless of how it made us look, now we sit back and bide time till his contract runs out.
What for!
A blind man can see Terry's time is up and if you cannot you are delusional.
The club it self may be in better shape than it was 5 years ago and TW has had something to do with that but the side running out every week is not. Some may argue that our list is in better shape and that maybe true but all that tells me that TW cannot coach anymore. He has better players under his command but with the same average results.
Now i don't hate Terry or Spud or any of the previous coaches, they have all done their best, whether we like it or not they have all tried really hard but failed. TW has made some mistakes with drafting and trading but he also had help with that but as the senior coach he has to wear the results. That's why they are paid the big bucks and get the pats on the back when things are going right.
What i think we should do is thank Terry for his time at Tigerland and send him on his way. We should give ourselves the best chance of getting the best coach possible. And if the fact that we sack coaches scares potential coaches, well maybe they were not right in the first place. We need someone who is willing to back himself and not worry if he is going to be sacked down the track if he fails.
What do you all think?
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I think people should wait until we mathematically can't make the finals
The buzzards were circling Mark Thompson prior to Round 6 2007
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Im happy for Terry to fall on his own sword.....No finals No Terry next year.I am sure he will have enough integrity to resign when the time comes.We dont have to sack him....that wont solve the problems at Richmond.The Cancer was there before he arrived.Sack Terry mid year and all that will happen is a massive media circus.
I dont believe its a "Time is of the essence" situation.Realisticly how many clubs will be looking for a coach next year......Melbourne and Freo will give their coaches more time.If Collingwood want to replace Malthouse....nothing will stop Buckley going there.Only Port and North might consider a change if things go bad.
While the season still has a heart beat I will continue to support Terry. Essendon looked like a lost cause after round 11 last year.Who would of thought they would win 6 out of the next 7.
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What do you all think?
I think we will agree to disagree
My view hasn't changed, he has a contract it should be honoured and there is still 16 weeks to go.
I was asked on Monday morning by a BLues supporter at work "Do you stillthink you can make the finals?"
My naswer was yes we can because the numbers say we can but will we? I don't know, highly unlikely but until there's no chance .....
I understand it will make a lot of people feel better if he was to go now but it isn't going ot solve the problems of the RFC it would just be another attempt to patch over the cracks
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I think people should wait until we mathematically can't make the finals
The buzzards were circling Mark Thompson prior to Round 6 2007
He does need some luck with a fit squad to pick from each week. Every week there seems to be someone important missing. Mainly, Cotch for me because he is the future. Everyone wants him fit and ready and out on the park, but he's been missing.
Hope Terry can turn it around like Bomber did.
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I thought that when TW was appointed that the 5 years would see us as premiers or at the very least fighting for one. Not just trying to scape into the finals in his last year.
Our past administrations have been ruthless and would have sacked him by now because average performances were not tolerated at the Richmond footy club regardless of how it made us look, now we sit back and bide time till his contract runs out.
What for!
bigtone, you seem to have had very lofty expectations on the teams performance in the last 5 years. Fighting for a flag was never a realistic option when you are rebuilding a list. To be honest, I always felt finals would be a big stretch in five years unless the senior players played out of their skin.
I think Terry has done what he said he would - turnover the list and rebuild the list with youth. There is continued speculation that he had the team overperforming in the first year which hindered this process plus some trade choices which is argued also did some damage but ultimately the list is a completely different makeup than it was when he arrived.
I believe when will struggle to make the finals next year too. I think with the older players retiring it will not be until 2011 that we will make the finals and start to see some (to use a Terryism) 'sustained success'.
Is it time for TW to go - probably. We need a more team orienated, defensive, physical game style to compliment our run and carry and I'm not convinced Terry can give is that. But in saying that I don't think TW should be sacked or stood down when we have publically stated that we will make the call midyear based on a potential final appearance. To do so would take us back to the bad old says when rbuilding was out of the question because every coach had to have immediate success or be sacked. No quality coach would want to enter that environment - thus the Spud.
Our past administrations are nothing to revere. In fact they, and our rabid supporters, and the exact reason we have never attempted to rebuild and make the hard long term decisions. They have demanded premierships from coaches and thought that it was the coach that was the problem rather than the playing group.
The facts are that coaches are only as good as the players they have and Richmond has traded and made quick fixes for decades, never affording the club the time to groom young draft picks or giving the coach the licence to start again.
Sacking TW is exactly what the media and opposition supporters would love us to do so if for that reason alone I say we keep our word, wait until we can no longer make the finals and there by showing any future coaches we have changed and are an attractive option for the future.
If TW pulls out a miracle and we make the finals then he should to stay - but he still deserves the time to try.
We owe hime that much
Stripes
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I thought that when TW was appointed that the 5 years would see us as premiers or at the very least fighting for one. Not just trying to scape into the finals in his last year.
Our past administrations have been ruthless and would have sacked him by now because average performances were not tolerated at the Richmond footy club regardless of how it made us look, now we sit back and bide time till his contract runs out.
What for!
I think Terry has done what he said he would - turnover the list and rebuild the list with youth.
Stripes, the part, that i guess that annoys me the most about what you say is this, and i have said it before. Terry has done nothing you and i counldn't have done- he has drafted players, some young, some not so young but that's another subject, but this is what happens without any effort. In fact the AFL tells you as a club you have to draft every year, so i don't understand why you think he has done anything out of the ordinary??? The hard part is to develope them and COACH them to be good players and intern a good side.
Also your statement about us not able to be be fighting for premierships in his 5 years baffles me as well. The club itself must have thought 5 years should have been enough otherwise they would have given him longer.How long does it take to rebuild a club? Is there a curtain time frame we should have been told about? If so, nobody mentioned it to Hawthorn.
The other thing you mentioned is a "coach is only as good as his players", you seem to contradict yourself here a little, in one hand you say TW has "turned over the list and rebuilt the list with youth" and on the other you insinuate he has not got the cattle. Which is it???
Anyway, i must admit i like your rational approach to the circus that is this season. :cheers
Edited to correct quote
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Stripes, the part, that i guess that annoys me the most about what you say is this, and i have said it before. Terry has done nothing you and i counldn't have done- he has drafted players, some young, some not so young but that's another subject, but this is what happens without any effort. In fact the AFL tells you as a club you have to draft every year, so i don't understand why you think he has done anything out of the ordinary??? The hard part is to develope them and COACH them to be good players and intern a good side.
Also your statement about us not able to be be fighting for premierships in his 5 years baffles me as well. The club itself must have thought 5 years should have been enough otherwise they would have given him longer.How long does it take to rebuild a club? Is there a curtain time frame we should have been told about? If so, nobody mentioned it to Hawthorn.
The other thing you mentioned is a "coach is only as good as his players", you seem to contradict yourself here a little, in one hand you say TW has "turned over the list and rebuilt the list with youth" and on the other you insinuate he has not got the cattle. Which is it???
Anyway, i must admit i like your rational approach to the circus that is this season. :cheers
Interesting argument bigtone. I can actually see what you are saying regarding recuiting and turning over the list but I feel he, and moreso the club, did more in the way over delisting and drafting than was required which is why we have so many players in the under 23 bracket. Some would argue that we should have done more but other than probably 1 or 2 drafts we have drafted heavily. I have forgotten the actual figure but when he first arrived he removed approximately 1/4 of the list.
We have very few players now in the side from before TW and these are likely to go even if TW remains at the club next year.
I agree it is the coach directing his assistants and specialty staff who are responsible for the development of players and in some instances our players have not reached their potential. I wonder though if this is an unusual situation at any club and if perhaps our own expectations were too high to begin with. I'm not sure. The reality is though that some have not reached their potential where other have exceeded theirs so does this make him a good coach? Again I'm unsure.
My statement about my expectations regarding finals in 5 years I feel in valid. It is very rare that a team of 18 -21 year olds have the physical maturity, experience and consistency to make a sprint for the finals. Almost without exception a team is driven to the finals by a strong leadership group of senior player, supported heavily with a group of 23-27 year old players with a few young stars thrown in for good measure. We just don't have good leaders and we certainly haven't had enough 23-27 year olds in our team over the last 5 years to make a grab for finals action. This is why I never expected us to seriously make the finals over that rebuilding time.
Hawthorn have that mix and that is why they surprized everyone, including themselves, by pinching a GF. Their team is lifted by their mid-age players not their young 'stars' like Buddy.
In terms over the 'coach being only as good as his cattle' I don't feel I was controdicting myself. What I meant was that given the players ages, despite their development or skills (or lack thereof if you like for certain players) he can not make them suddenly age, gain experience and poise and be ready to play finals before they are ready. Steriods used to be a quick solution but now the best you can do in throw them into the side early, train them hard and hope they follow your instructions.
Glad you like my rational approach and yes it is a circus this year and we just lost our headline act... :'(
Stripes
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Stripes, the part, that i guess that annoys me the most about what you say is this, and i have said it before. Terry has done nothing you and i counldn't have done- he has drafted players, some young, some not so young but that's another subject, but this is what happens without any effort. In fact the AFL tells you as a club you have to draft every year, so i don't understand why you think he has done anything out of the ordinary??? The hard part is to develope them and COACH them to be good players and intern a good side.
Also your statement about us not able to be be fighting for premierships in his 5 years baffles me as well. The club itself must have thought 5 years should have been enough otherwise they would have given him longer.How long does it take to rebuild a club? Is there a curtain time frame we should have been told about? If so, nobody mentioned it to Hawthorn.
The other thing you mentioned is a "coach is only as good as his players", you seem to contradict yourself here a little, in one hand you say TW has "turned over the list and rebuilt the list with youth" and on the other you insinuate he has not got the cattle. Which is it???
Anyway, i must admit i like your rational approach to the circus that is this season. :cheers
Interesting argument bigtone. I can actually see what you are saying regarding recuiting and turning over the list but I feel he, and moreso the club, did more in the way over delisting and drafting than was required which is why we have so many players in the under 23 bracket. Some would argue that we should have done more but other than probably 1 or 2 drafts we have drafted heavily. I have forgotten the actual figure but when he first arrived he removed approximately 1/4 of the list.
So let me get this straight- our list when TW took over was "no good" so he got rid of alot of them, drafted SOME kids and because of this he has done a good job! Like i said before you don't have to be Einsteine to work out that had to be done. Simple stuff really. I just don't get what you see he has done so great for our club, i really cannot!
As for the ages of players and age brackets, it's all crap! You say we don't have good leaders BUT again TW has had control over this for the last 5 years. I know what you will say about that but should we keep these guys on our list if they are no good only because of there ages?
Finally are we at where you thought we would be 4 and a bit years after TW took over? If not then maybe just maybe Terry has failed.
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It achieves nothing by sacking him, it will just show that we are weak leaderless club again. Terry will go on his own accord if he doesn't get the club up this year and I believe we should let that happen.
I would suggest that he would eventually call it a day publicly if we cant make the finals and coach in the best interest of the clubs future (list management).
PS: please no more wasted picks on other clubs discards. Thomson and Hislop just don't seem to cut the mustard.
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What people seem to forget is that it takes time for a new coach to come in and stamp his authority on a side and get them to learn the gameplan. Look at StKilda, a regular finals side missed the 8 the first year that Ross Lyon took over and 3 years later are now playing very competitive football, but it's still taken 3 years to do it with a team of good players and plenty of early picks.
The only one I can really think of who turned a club around quickly in recent times is Neil Craig, but he's still not won anything.
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we aint going to make the finals.
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As others have said I would allow Plough to see out his contract. You'd expect come the second half of the year and finals mathematically out of the question he'll fall on his sword and announce as Spud did that this is his final year and he'll see out his contract. That'll allow the club to search for a new coach and to
tank manipulate the side by playing the kids to get the best draft picks. We need more class and that only comes at the top end of the draft.
Wallace needed many things to go right for him to go beyond his 5-year deal. The club was counting on an initial window of finals around 2008 or 09 with the remaining older seniors players in combo with our younger players from the 2004-5 drafts. That would've given Terry another year or two grace through which we would dip as the oldies retire followed by a more sustained successful period built around the younger core we have now who'll be in their mid-20s from 2011 onwards. The first part (making finals) didn't happen due to the older guys not performing consistently and injuries (Cogs/Browny) combined with choices at the draft table in 2004-5 not coming on as expected and in the case of 2005 poor choices not coming on at all so far. Most of our 2004 draftees are now playing in the firsts but apart from Lids they haven't cemented their place in the side as there isn't that class factor to boost us up into finals contention. There's more class in our 2006-7 draftees. Too early to judge 2008 although we only drafted two kids ::). One boo-boo too many on the recruiting front to save Terry.
Plough's chopping and changing of gamestyles and player positions hasn't helped either. After winning 8 of last 11 last year playing more 1-on-1 footy and with a settled back six it was a big mistake to alter things so dramatically over preseason just because of this fascination with zoning. He's been unlucky with injuries to our more classy key players but the failure to protect the ballcarrier in his gameplan will be the final nail in Plough's coaching career.
As for the new coach he'll have three things that Plough didn't have when he started 4.5 years ago - (i) a financially stable club making regular profits and putting more resources into the club (we're still 12th in footy dept. spending based on figures out today), (ii) the actual better resources with Craigieburn and new Punt Rd, and (iii) a young core under 23 to build and develop a side around. It'll also be easier to make tough list management decisions (cutting older players) when there's 21-22 year olds with some AFL experience to replace them in the side rather than raw 17-18 year old boys.
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I really don't give a stuff either way.
it's all bull poo and i'm sick of hearing the wanker banter that has been derived from a bored,underpaid and speculative media.
Play footy FFS!
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bigtone, you seem to have had very lofty expectations on the teams performance in the last 5 years. Fighting for a flag was never a realistic option when you are rebuilding a list. To be honest, I always felt finals would be a big stretch in five years unless the senior players played out of their skin.
I believe when will struggle to make the finals next year too. I think with the older players retiring it will not be until 2011 that we will make the finals and start to see some (to use a Terryism) 'sustained success'.
Stripes
i dont believe that losing the >30 will be a major factor, they are having NO influence this year...here's hoping by season end we will showing positive signs of producing some fair replacements...
My thoughts are we are only an elite key forward from improving exponentially...our midfield is good and will prve to be better than that with cotchin firing ..the rucks are only raw but with alot of upside and the back half is excellant
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So let me get this straight- our list when TW took over was "no good" so he got rid of alot of them, drafted SOME kids and because of this he has done a good job! Like i said before you don't have to be Einsteine to work out that had to be done. Simple stuff really. I just don't get what you see he has done so great for our club, i really cannot!
As for the ages of players and age brackets, it's all crap! You say we don't have good leaders BUT again TW has had control over this for the last 5 years. I know what you will say about that but should we keep these guys on our list if they are no good only because of there ages?
Finally are we at where you thought we would be 4 and a bit years after TW took over? If not then maybe just maybe Terry has failed.
Firstly MT - great post and bojangles and camboon you make a lot of sense too!
Bigtone - I don't think I have a hope in hell of changing your opinion of TW or our coaching situation in general...but that won't stop me trying! ;)
I think TW has done the job he said he would regarding rebuilding our list. The proof is in the percentage of players that are now on the list compared to who was on the list before. He has built us a list founded with youth to build from. Now you can argue the strength and development of those players but we still have a basis of a good team which is in its infancy now.
MT has done a brilliant explaining what TW hoped would play out compared to what actually occurred but in essence our older players inconsistent form and leadership, injured to key players (Simmonds, Cogs etc) and high draft picks underperforming (JON, Meyer, Bling, Hughes, Casserly, etc) have been his downfall.
I think if anything our players have let down the club more so than the coach and in particular our senior players. You can not expect a coach to demand immediate success from raw new recruits, it is from the older and experienced leaders than drive on field success. The reality is when just don't have leaders of the type of caliber you require to create finals success at our club at the moment and you can't blame the current coach or recruiters for that. In fact TW pointed out our lack of voice and spirit when he first arrived and bringing in players such as Riewoldt and Cotchin were an attempt to correct this problem in the future. You can't create good leaders out of thin air.
You're right I will say that you can't get rid of all the senior players when the rest of the list is 18-19 year olds. There was so much deadwood on our list that the senior players we have left are the best of a bad bunch. You can't get rid of everyone without having replacements ready and look at the outcry there has been at Tigerland with even the suggestion Richo could be asked to retire. Many supporters would react in similar ways if players such as Bowden and Brown were asked to retire too. Now is the time to move them on but TW didn't have that opportunity until now.
As for what else he has done well TW was the right coach for the time plain and simple. One of his strengths is he is media savvy. He was able to 'keep the wolves at bay' so to speak and give the club the space and time to attempt to rebuild. Our coaches over the last 27 years have been too scared to even attempt to rebuild. They were in self preservation mode from day one of their contracts knowing that the supporters and administration demanded immediate success and if they didn't give it too them they were gone. This is why we have traded away so many of our high draft picks to get other clubs rehashed has-beens. It is why we have never had a team of any worth and why no coach of any worth has wanted to work at Richmond.
TW sold a message, a plan and a goal and that allowed the club to at least TRY to rebuild. Any other coach would have lost the natives and we would have been traveling down the same path of self destruction once again.
So you ask me whether I thought we would be where we are now - yes I did. Did I hope we would be further advanced - bloody oath I did, but reality and hope are two completely different things. Before you cast TW aside realize that our problem at Tigerland is not of his making and that at least he attempted to fix it. For too long our coaches have been the scapegoat for our failure as a club but we need to start pinpointing the real issues and target them instead.
Stripes
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To be totally honest Stripes everything you have said is just words to me (no disrespect) except the second line. :thumbsup
Just like me i don't think there is anything i can say to change your opinion on TW, BUT if he has done so well why will he be gone at seasons end?
Surely if even half the stuff you say is right the people in the know at Tigerland would reappoint him or are they all bummies too!
Or maybe you and Terry were the only two who thought we would be where we are after nearly five years!
All i know is i will have a big smile on my face when Terry walks out the doors at Punt road! :)
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To be totally honest Stripes everything you have said is just words to me (no disrespect) except the second line. :thumbsup
Just like me i don't think there is anything i can say to change your opinion on TW, BUT if he has done so well why will he be gone at seasons end?
Surely if even half the stuff you say is right the people in the know at Tigerland would reappoint him or are they all bummies too!
Or maybe you and Terry were the only two who thought we would be where we are after nearly five years!
All i know is i will have a big smile on my face when Terry walks out the doors at Punt road! :)
I think TW thought he would be playing finals this year otherwise he would not have been happy to allow the media to build up the hype and high expectation for the team during preseason.
I won't be happy to see TW leave because put simple, it would mean we have failed as a club once more and have to start all over again with a new coach who is bound to lead us to success - nothing to do with the players of course.... ;)
Thanks for the debate
Stripes
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Lmao @ Stripes signing off on every stuffen post.
Stripes. :scream :wallywink
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Lmao @ Stripes signing off on every effen post.
Stripes. :scream :wallywink
I do it just to pee you off Oxy - by the way how do I get my name trademarked again.... :P ::) People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones bigfella. ;)
STRIPES[/u][/i]
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Lmao @ Stripes signing off on every effen post.
Stripes. :scream :wallywink
I do it just to pee you off Oxy - by the way how do I get my name trademarked again.... :P ::) People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones bigfella. ;)
STRIPES[/u][/i]
Signing off on every post is more tragic than Jovially trademarking ones name.
Stripes.
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Lmao @ Stripes signing off on every effen post.
Stripes. :scream :wallywink
I do it just to pee you off Oxy - by the way how do I get my name trademarked again.... :P ::) People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones bigfella. ;)
STRIPES[/u][/i]
Signing off on every post is more tragic than Jovially trademarking ones name.
Stripes.
OK if you believe that.
Stripes
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To be totally honest Stripes everything you have said is just words to me (no disrespect) except the second line. :thumbsup
Just like me i don't think there is anything i can say to change your opinion on TW, BUT if he has done so well why will he be gone at seasons end?
Surely if even half the stuff you say is right the people in the know at Tigerland would reappoint him or are they all bummies too!
Or maybe you and Terry were the only two who thought we would be where we are after nearly five years!
All i know is i will have a big smile on my face when Terry walks out the doors at Punt road! :)
I think TW thought he would be playing finals this year otherwise he would not have been happy to allow the media to build up the hype and high expectation for the team during preseason.
I won't be happy to see TW leave because put simple, it would mean we have failed as a club once more and have to start all over again with a new coach who is bound to lead us to success - nothing to do with the players of course.... ;)
Thanks for the debate
Stripes
Seems Plough knows his fate and maybe there's a clue from his EOTT report to when he'll publicly confirm it's over for him - ie. give it another month or so.
"With the start to the season that we’ve had, we need to string a month of victories together very soon, or time will run out. That is the group’s challenge."
http://210.50.4.102/rfc/
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Lmao @ Stripes signing off on every effen post.
Stripes. :scream :wallywink
I do it just to pee you off Oxy - by the way how do I get my name trademarked again.... :P ::) People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones bigfella. ;)
STRIPES[/u][/i]
Well if it is going to p1ss ox off then I'm in.
'65
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Ditto
jackstar is back
or should i sign off with a ;)
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or should i sign off with a ;)
Perhaps you should trade mark it with a JSIB at the end
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Have we as a footy club jeopardised the chance for success trying to get rid of the tag of a club that sacks coaches?
Tend to agree with that. Think I made a comment in about 2007 that the writing was on the wall with Wallace in 2006. But what would I know? Anyway, here we are, treading water. Again.
We're too busy trying to get rid of a tag, instead of developing a successful club. And the way RFC has gone about its coaching contracts over the years makes you think that they actually have no idea if and when a coach is doing a good job or not. Simply because it seems they’ve generally waited for the media and/or supporters to tell them when things are not right and that they need to get rid of the coach.
Shouldn’t they have an understanding themselves, without needing the outside world to tell them they need a change? Why can those on the outside see clearer than those on the inside? You can only assume they don’t know themselves.
Keeping a coach on just for appearances sake is just as unprofessional as sacking a coach because the footy world says you should.
Maybe one day RFC will finally get in the real world, and actually come to recognise that they need to have some understanding of the capabilities of its footy department, and what constitutes progress in its players, as individuals and as a team.