One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Moi on April 24, 2005, 09:00:40 PM
-
Should Terry show faith in some of the senior players who haven't been playing well this year, ie Tivendale etc. or start dropping players back to the seconds? Methinks it's time for a couple, although I probably would send Tivvas back first and maybe Krak. Not that Tivvas was woeful today, it's just that he hasn't seemed to have hit any "real" and "consistent" form this year. Just figure it can't be just the kids that take the heat after losses like that. Did anyone in the 2s play well enough to get promoted?
-
I'm happy to keep Krakouer in the firsts on the condition that he does 3 gym sessions per week. if that condition isn't met I'm happy to never see him play in the firsts again.
I reckon Simmonds is close to getting dropped.
-
Tivs is at least getting the footy the last two weeks. If at the end of year we don't think he is the player to take us to a flag then trade him as he would have value. Krakouer is struggling. He's only had one decent game in five. Coburg plays tomorrow so there's an opportunity for someone to make a claim for a senior spot. Hyde will obviously have to be replaced :(. Given that I wouldn't be surprised if Terry holds the current team together. One loss (granted we were blown out of the water by a class act) isn't exactly panic stations especially on the back of 3 straight wins.
The finger after today needs to be pointed at Richo, Simmonds and Browny. As team leaders they needed to stand up and wave the flag when the side is under seige. Poor efforts from our VC, DVC and prized recruit. Richo and Simmonds should have had too much height and strength for the Saints defence but we didn't see that at all today. In fact the Saint defenders ran off them with ease. Add to that not one goal (4 behinds) from the two big guys.
-
What about Chaffey?
I would rather see us go with Tuck as our number one tagger, even Hyde can play that role.
Chaffey is just down right pathetic and shouldnt be playing league footy.
-
The finger after today needs to be pointed at Richo, Simmonds and Browny. As team leaders they needed to stand up and wave the flag when the side is under seige. Poor efforts from our VC, DVC and prized recruit.
A bit harsh on Richo there MT I reckon. From where I was sitting (between far too many Saints supporters) I thought his work rate was very very good. The delivery to him was pathetic - with the usual suspects showcasing their deplorable skills :banghead but he didn't drop his head and he ran and chased all night. Simmonds was a disappointment - for a man on his considerable size he should crash packs (ala Hamill).
As for Browny - as acting captain he needed to show more and he didn't. I was surprised the number of times he kicked with his right foot which made me think he may have been injured.
And let's not leave out our other DVC - Mr Bowden - a shocker, it was like those bad bad days. Can anyone tell me why he is kicking those little chip passes instead of kicking it long?
-
The finger after today needs to be pointed at Richo, Simmonds and Browny. As team leaders they needed to stand up and wave the flag when the side is under seige. Poor efforts from our VC, DVC and prized recruit.
A bit harsh on Richo there MT I reckon. From where I was sitting (between far too many Saints supporters) I thought his work rate was very very good. The delivery to him was pathetic - with the usual suspects showcasing their deplorable skills :banghead but he didn't drop his head and he ran and chased all night.
Yeah maybe I was harsh on Richo in terms of his workrate and the rubbish that was delivered in his direction WP but a forward is there to kick goals and Richo missed all 3 chances he had in the first half when we needed vital goals.
Mind you he wasn't Robinson Crusoe at goalkicking yesterday. In the first 5 minutes of the game - Richo missed, Cogs failed to make the distance from inside 50 (how many times did that happen with Richmond players :banghead) and Staff goaled before the Saints looked like scoring. We could have been 2-3 goals up. Once the Saints goaled and then goaled again to take the lead it was good night.
-
There was one stage in the 3rd Qtr where the ball was passed to Krak - It was all his if he wanted it but just seemed to be going half hearted - A Saints player swooped in like it was a crucial possesion in the closing minutes of a Grand Final.
We and especially Players like Krak need to develop this hunger instead of just going about business. How TW instills this hunger is beyond me maybe make these players go back and EARN thier spots at Coburg. If they dont perform Coburg seconds it is and They do not get back into the seniors until they show they have the Hunger NOT the potential.
This goes for the whole group not just Krak - He just stood out in my mind due to that passage of play yesterday.
Go Tigers :thumbsup
-
Not to mention all those snaps that Browny had that just resulted in points. I thought at one stage that Simmonds wasn't playing at all - there was so little vision on him. I didn't see all of those goals Richo missed but I did see him hard at chasing the ball.
-
richo busted his guts but once again our inside fiftey entries' dispospasla was pathetic!
simmonds was many times clear alone and wasnt used, they kept on bombing it to richo and stafford!
krak must not have been right, he just seemed slow and asleep, maybe was illl i dont know.
cogs disposal is normally gr8 , last night he stuffed up.
we won the clearances, he had more contested marks, we matched them for inside 50s, we won more contested ball, we won the hard ball gets. we just had more clangers and turnovers and they killed us on the rebound with their disposal and thats because of this bs zone defence style of play. when we played man on man, (not that often i maught add) we caused them to make errors and beat them, then we would turn it over and they would get it fwd real quick and punish us!
ok
for next week
these names have to go to coburb!
TIVERS....23 touches and stuffed nearly all of them up!
Chaffey.... just hopeless, i have never rated him and never will, get back to baseball!
Hall.......... pathetic, poor excuse for a footballer, thank god last week freo never kicked the ball to pavlova!
Krak......... just needs a run in the 2s for confidence
Joel ......... punishment for not sticking to the game plan again!
what we need to do!
jackson.... give him more midfield game time! he killed them in the middle when he was there
simmonds...play him as a ruck rover, jim stynes like, he is athletic and would be a big body in the packs! no ruck rover would be able to match up on him
Shultz....... bring him back , play him at ff, knobel and staff to alternate ruck and pocket duties
tambling.... bring him in , play him ff
meyer........ as above
morrison......just give him a go at chb!
Raines........give him more on ball time and not bench time
just some ideas
btw the team must learn how to fricken tackle properly, we are still th eweakest team inth eafkl and worst at pinning blokes down, its a damn joke , and we myust learn to gang tackle and hunt in numbers as the saints do!
-
for next week
these names have to go to coburb!
TIVERS....23 touches and stuffed nearly all of them up!
X, our battle regarding Tivers continues...you just won't let go hey?
Anyway, here are his stats, and I can honestly say his passing on Sunday was very good and with both feet ( two passes with his right on the run hit their target).
23 Disposals, 21 effective, what bloody game were you watching?
Tivers Stats
Kicks: 16
Effective: 14
Ineffective: 2
Handballs: 7
Effective: 7
Ineffective: 0
Total Disposals: 23
Effective: 21
Ineffective: 2
-
How can some people criticise Bowden ? IMO he was one of our best. What little chip kicks are people referring to? Or do we want him to bomb it blindly to contests? Bowden is probably the only player who tries to create, tries to hold possession, and tries to bring his teamates into the game. This is what TW wants from all his players, possession, precise, creative football, not bomb and hope. Also, you can't possibly blame Richo.
If people are looking for scapegoats then i'll point you in the right direction -> Chaffey (pathetic), Krakouer (bludger), Simmonds (can't move), Kellaway (too slow in mind and foot), Graham, Pettifer (doesn't have what it takes). Other borderline players are Tiva, Gas, and Hal.
Also if we are gonna throw criticisms left right and centre, a few should go to Cogs and Tuck. Sure they win the hard ball and all, but their kicking at times is just dreadful.
-
How can some people criticise Bowden ? IMO he was one of our best. What little chip kicks are people referring to? Or do we want him to bomb it blindly to contests? Bowden is probably the only player who tries to create, tries to hold possession, and tries to bring his teamates into the game. This is what TW wants from all his players, possession, precise, creative football, not bomb and hope. Also, you can't possibly blame Richo.
Took the words out of my mouth Harry. I must admit I was surprised to read the criticisms, even more so after I forced myself to watch the replay. I would have thought Joel was following the game plan most precisely, hitting a target and running hard to the next contest to receive, thereby moving the ball about 70 - 80 metres downfield rather than bomb it straight to their loose man waiting on our half forward line, helllo Tiv and Chaff.
Also noticed that TW was using Joel to try and stop leaks all over the field - half back, half fwd and the mid field. i also thought that Richo was working to plan and prepared to sacrifice his game by running hard and moving his players out of Staff's way....the man never stops running.
Everyone is quick to praise Cogs (and I love him) but his disposal on Sunday was awful..he gifted at least 2 goals to the Saints one from a beautiful handball staight to Dal Santo who ran straight out of the centre. Rule number one dont' handball in the air in the middle unless you're sure it's going to a team mate. His delivery was very ordinary, although he certainly wasn't on his own there.
I sometimes think I must have watched a different game.
-
How can some people criticise Bowden ? IMO he was one of our best. What little chip kicks are people referring to? Or do we want him to bomb it blindly to contests? Bowden is probably the only player who tries to create, tries to hold possession, and tries to bring his teamates into the game. This is what TW wants from all his players, possession, precise, creative football, not bomb and hope. Also, you can't possibly blame Richo.
I actually sat down and watch the replay again last night before replying. I will admit that I only watched it a second time until half time but....
Example number 1 - second quarter, surrounded by 3 Saints should have taken the first option and kicked it out long to the wing where I think for memory (this doesn't show on the TV) Simmonds was one out with his opponent. In this case Joel looked to handball or chip kick it and then got tackled forcing the ball free, the ball dribbled to Ball who kicked a goal. At that point we were going OK - couldn't score but was certainly competitive. Costly costly mistake from a leader.
Example 2 in the first he had the ball on the HBF - had the big fellas up around the 50 - chipped kicked it 15 metres to a Tiger player with 4 Saints bearing down. Granted it came off but the next disposal by the player surrounded by the 4 saints resulted in a turnover and saints goal.
Took the words out of my mouth Harry. I must admit I was surprised to read the criticisms, even more so after I forced myself to watch the replay. I would have thought Joel was following the game plan most precisely, hitting a target and running hard to the next contest to receive, thereby moving the ball about 70 - 80 metres downfield rather than bomb it straight to their loose man waiting on our half forward line, helllo Tiv and Chaff.
I know the plan is to run and carry the ball but IMO Joel Bowden serves us better by kicking it further than 20 metres especially if the 20 metre kick is putting his teammate under pressure. The harsh reality is that unlike Joel who is very skillful others in the team are not and sometimes with his choice in disposal you have to wonder if Joel is aware of the lack of skill ??? Granted he is trying to run to the next contest but I reckon sometimes with those chip kicks he creates a far greater chance of a turnover.
Also if we are gonna throw criticisms left right and centre, a few should go to Cogs and Tuck. Sure they win the hard ball and all, but their kicking at times is just dreadful.
Everyone is quick to praise Cogs (and I love him) but his disposal on Sunday was awful..he gifted at least 2 goals to the Saints one from a beautiful handball staight to Dal Santo who ran straight out of the centre. Rule number one dont' handball in the air in the middle unless you're sure it's going to a team mate. His delivery was very ordinary, although he certainly wasn't on his own there.
I sometimes think I must have watched a different game.
See my new thread called "A is for.............." ;D :rollin ;D
-
Thanks for your support bg25.
From the very start Terry Wallace has said that he wants the boys playing a free flowing attacking style of game where-by he encourages them to run and carry the ball, playing their own game by taking on their opponents. He wants them to be confident in their own abilities and doesn't want them to go into their shells despite the opposition and the scoreboard. He wants them to enjoy their footy and persist with the exciting style of play, and not be afraid of making mistakes. Joel Bowden is doing exactly what Terry wants - that is he is taking on his opponents, holding posession, running, carrying, being creative, trying to get his teamates into the game, and playing his natural game. Sometimes this comes unstuck and the ball is turned over but this is maiinly due to the fact that his incompetent teamates are not capable of playing to that level. This isn't Bowdens fault. Bowden is doing what he is told, and is not panicking and bombing blindly to contests. I can see how people can point the finger towards Bowden and say he stuffed up because he is instigating the high risk, creative and attacking passages of play which if they came off would put us in a more dangerous position to score. He is not opting for the safer option of blindly bombing long to contests or out wide which Terry doesn't want. He is trying to make things happen and is playing a higher risk game - high risk to fail, but a higher return if it comes off. We need more players like Bowden, not less.
Where's the criticism of Kellaway who IMO does absolutely nothing. What is he, a tall back or a running medium small defender? What is his role? He never gets a dangerous tall forward, never gets a dangerous small forward, and never gives us any drive out of defence. He has the easiest gig in the AFL. He is the invisible man, and as such never gets any criticism. On Sunday I had a go at Kellaway and some tiger supporter in front of me turned around and said "How dare you have a go at Chubbu?" So we, as tiger supporters, would prefer a player who doesn't try to instigate anything and goes for 1 or 2 "courageous" marks a game over a player who tries to instigate play, who tries to be creative, who tries to bring his teamates into the game, who tries to give us value for money.
As much as I love Newman, I thought he was much worse than Bowden on the weekend. It just appears that it's fashionable to bag Bowden who is easily in our top 5 and IMO a much better player and candidate for captain than Johnson.
-
As much as I love Newman, I thought he was much worse than Bowden on the weekend.
There you go Harry - we agree on this point. :thumbsup ;D I thought Newman was terrible and against that little twirp Milne of all people :banghead
-
Should Terry show faith in some of the senior players who haven't been playing well this year...
TW has said that he will give players a go first. Not sure whether it was until about half way through the season or thereabouts.
Realistically, what is the alternative? Most of the younger players are either too young and inexperienced or just not ready.
Our list is no where near where it needs to be, we all know that. It’s not easy watching your team get shellacked every other week, season in season out, but what can we do about it in the short-term and how does cutting down any player who at least has a go make any real difference? Remember that this is the first year of a long ride. Obviously there are players who shouldn’t be on our list, but we’ve been through all the reasons why they are before.
Let’s just stay calm and realise that this is just the start of building a new team and those who can’t cut it won’t last. As long as we can see a new culture emerge that’s part way to ensuring we have a better team down the track, with a better environment for players to get the best out of themselves. Which hasn’t always been the case, because we’ve all seen weaknesses in players over the years and nothing was ever done about them. Hopefully now the new coaching staff won’t let those things just slip through unnoticed and players will have to work on those areas or they won’t last.
Just for now, if players can show a bit of staying power and see out a game then that’s something and is more than we’ve been given in the past.
Until the list has had time to improve and we can get back to being more than just competitive, then all you can ask is that players do their best. And if that’s not good enough, so be it, just for now. It won’t be forever.
Alternatively, we can just get cranky with every player on the list every time we lose a game and want them shipped out to another Club, or anywhere else, as long as it’s not here.
I was talking to a Geelong supporter yesterday and asked him if he wanted another of our players and suggested maybe they might like Tiv. By my calculations, in a half decent team, they could have him playing decent, effective footy in about 6 weeks time. Ok, maybe a bit longer.
We have other players on our list who are at least half decent now, but imagine them in a better line up, how good could they be? We won’t even talk about that dud Fiora.
-
Well guys very interesting to read everyones views on the weekends game.
Everyone who I thought was poor has been covered.
Can't bring myself to write much more about this game as it was so disheartening. (Much respect WP for toughing out even 1/2 a replay of that.)
IMO TW must make changes after a performance like that. The Burgers won on the W/E so some must come up and some must go down.
Chaffey No1, too slow of mind and body.
-
Realistically, what is the alternative? Most of the younger players are either too young and inexperienced or just not ready.
Our list is no where near where it needs to be, we all know that. It’s not easy watching your team get shellacked every other week, season in season out, but what can we do about it in the short-term and how does cutting down any player who at least has a go make any real difference?
I'm of the other view TS that positions should be earned. When they've played badly over a "number" of weeks (not on any given week), i think it's beneficial for the club and individual to have a good run in the seconds to get back form and confidence, and away from the pressure that they get from ppl (mainly supporters) who constantly bag the crap out of them. Worked well for Bowden. And gives a kid in the 2nds a chance to be rewarded for efforts. That kind of system IMO keeps everyone on their toes.
Giving a player carte blanche, saying his bad form means he won't be dropped and i've got faith in you, doesn't work for me. When do you draw the line with a player. Tivvas was up there in the B&F a couple of years ago, so he's no hack. He might be getting lots of possesions still, but he's not dominating a game like he did that year and i think it would be good for him. Same with Krak or anyone who's not playing well.
Let’s just stay calm and realise that this is just the start of building a new team and those who can’t cut it won’t last.
Agree, but i want to be sure that those who can't cut it get the best player management (see above) to ensure we don't let a good one go, and that a kid who might have been good doesn't get cast off into footy obscurity because he wasn't managed properly, rewarded when appropriate etc.
-
Couldn’t disagree with anything you’ve said Moi and of course players have to earn their spot and so on.
By TW saying that he’s going to give players a go before making any decisions about them, how much of a chance can some expect when they’ve been at the Club for a number of years already and probably had more chances than they might have had elsewhere? Under those circumstances, if a player was let go, could we then think that we were losing someone “good”?
If players can go to another Club and get something better out of themselves there then good luck to them. It’s obviously up to our footy club to be able to do the same, which we haven’t done in the past.
Fair enough that people highlight mistakes by our players and so on and areas that they need to work on and improve in. But the game on the weekend highlighted the difference in two teams at opposite ends of the spectrum. How much easier is Fiora’s football life in a team that plays like a team? If he was still at RFC we’d still be bagging him for this that and everything else.
The point is that we just don’t have the overall class and ability of the better teams and until we can develop such a list then any mistakes players make will be costly. I’m not saying they don’t have to work on those things, because of course they do. And part of the problem has been that our players have been able to get away with too much in the past to ever become more than average footballers.
But going back to a point I made last week, our turnovers and skill errors just highlight how far we have to go as a team. Mainly because we turn the ball over in the first place and then because we can’t pressure the opposition to win back possession. And that’s been happening for donkeys years.
Until our list significantly improves, in experience and quality, then the most you can ask of any player, at this stage, is that they do their best and, for the younger players, that they learn as much as they can from each game, gain experience and work towards developing a winning culture? If they can do that under current circumstances then the future has to be better.
I understand what you say about keeping people on their toes, and it is necessary to drop and bring in other players at various times. But, realistically, what results are we expecting from that system, right now, when the only thing that’s going to make us a better team is a better list, which is improving, but still needs a lot more work. In the short-term, dropping and bringing in other players doesn’t change anything much, except give us someone different to bag.
Give players a go if they deserve it and drop those who’ve had a go, but I don’t expect by doing that it’s going to dramatically alter anything for some time to come yet.
-
By TW saying that he’s going to give players a go before making any decisions about them, how much of a chance can some expect when they’ve been at the Club for a number of years already and probably had more chances than they might have had elsewhere? Under those circumstances, if a player was let go, could we then think that we were losing someone “good”?
Well, seeing as those players were coached under Frawley, I'd say any of them could improve under Wallace - Tuck being a good example of one so far this year who we probably would have had on the scrap heap last year, but i don't think so now. Same for anyone else on the list. I have no doubt that the players in your mind that will end up getting cut at the end of the year are the same as mine, but still would like to see the year pan out giving them every chance to prove themselves. And i don't see Krak and Tivvas on my list just yet, that's why i'd like to see them better managed through what i've said before ad nauseam and, hopefully, they can add value with the Tigers rather than elsewhere.
-
Joel Bowden is doing exactly what Terry wants - that is he is taking on his opponents, holding posession, running, carrying, being creative, trying to get his teamates into the game, and playing his natural game.
I agree HH. My only problem with him is that his defensive game lets him down sometimes. IMO, when you are playing the majority of your game in the backline, you have to have a defensive game, even if you are the most creative and attacking player there. Bowden's standoffish 'zoning' doesn't cut it, he needs to tackle more, or at least rush the player.
Sometimes this comes unstuck and the ball is turned over but this is maiinly due to the fact that his incompetent teamates are not capable of playing to that level. This isn't Bowdens fault.
Whose fault was it then when he got ran down last Sunday? He was standing there like a millionaire!!! (he prob is one!) He had options everywhere.
This comment also implies that Bowden is a class above the rest of the side, which he is not.
I don't neccessarily agree that he covers heaps of ground either. He does a lot of jogging on the spot- CHB is perfect for him.
-
Well, seeing as those players were coached under Frawley, I'd say any of them could improve under Wallace - Tuck being a good example of one so far this year who we probably would have had on the scrap heap last year, but i don't think so now. Same for anyone else on the list. I have no doubt that the players in your mind that will end up getting cut at the end of the year are the same as mine, but still would like to see the year pan out giving them every chance to prove themselves. And i don't see Krak and Tivvas on my list just yet, that's why i'd like to see them better managed through what i've said before ad nauseam and, hopefully, they can add value with the Tigers rather than elsewhere.
Again, don’t disagree with any of that Moi and I think we’d all like to know that players are managed properly and given a fair go. But just because we don’t see a change in the way some players play, do we assume they’re not being managed properly or that they just don’t have what it takes? Unless you’re on the inside how do we know? We’ve probably all had our doubts about how things have been run in the past, but if we’re not getting it right now then I may just go look for those razor blades.
I don’t know if it really says anything about how things have changed or not, but on Club Corner the other night, Greg Miller mentioned about some of our weaknesses and how it was noticed that Cogs sometimes handballs short, which can put a teammate under pressure. No kidding.
How long has he been at this footy club and how long has he been doing that? By my recollections, a lot longer than Sunday’s game. If a nuff nuff like me could see that yonks ago, why is it still happening, enough to be a concern, when it could have been coached out of him by now, you would think?
Guess we should just be grateful it’s been noted, if it wasn’t before. Which hopefully means they’ll do something about it now and also that things that went unchecked before won’t now or in the future. We can only hope.
-
Whose fault was it then when he got ran down last Sunday? iHe was standing there like a millionaire!!! (he prob is one!) He had options everywhere.
The player who handballed to Bowden didn't then block Milne. He had his back to Milne looking for one of those options everywhere (which I couldn't see, seems he couldn't either). Hall was a couple of metres away watching and, unless he can talk without his lips moving, wasn't warning him he was hot.
-
The player who handballed to Bowden didn't then block Milne. He had his back to Milne looking for one of those options everywhere (which I couldn't see, seems he couldn't either). Hall was a couple of metres away watching and, unless he can talk without his lips moving, wasn't warning him he was hot.
I thought he had someone wide on the opposite stuff, Hall himself was an option, despite the fact, and as you correctly pointed out, that he was standing still watching.
And yeh Hall said nothing, no one did...
-
Whose fault was it then when he got ran down last Sunday? iHe was standing there like a millionaire!!! (he prob is one!) He had options everywhere.
The player who handballed to Bowden didn't then block Milne. He had his back to Milne looking for one of those options everywhere (which I couldn't see, seems he couldn't either). Hall was a couple of metres away watching and, unless he can talk without his lips moving, wasn't warning him he was hot.
I've only seen 3 players from memory who have put a block or layed a shepherd all year and they are Knobel, Campbell, Richo & maybe Krak so untill we can do these things as second nature we are not going to climb a long way in a short time.
-
Be interesting to follow Woewodin after his demotion to the seconds. If it's good enough for a Brownlow Medallist, it's good enough for any of our players. Good on Malthouse for having the guts to show that no-one is immune from being dropped if form is lousy.