One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: mightytiges on August 21, 2005, 08:29:32 PM
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Appeared to be struggling to run and especially sprint today.
Hope his pubic instability hasn't flaired up again :(.
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My dad said the same thing today, i tend to agree.
Is their any point in playing him next week?
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i found myself asking my dad the same question...
Coughlan used to be such a gun.. now he has just gone missing.. kinda like Aussie Jones, was a superstar.. then went missing...
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he is a liablility, his condition will never be cured, but when ur on the park ur assumed fit so i believe he has unfortunately played his best footy and his pace skills judgement are just not good enough, trade him now whilst he has some market value, poo if guys like lockett, hall, everitt can be let go 4 the betterment of st kilda, we can let cogs go too. alot better players than him in the past have been let go by clubs
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Appeared to be struggling to run and especially sprint today.
Hope his pubic instability hasn't flaired up again :(.
It wasn't just yesterday MT - IMO it's been apparent for at least the last 6-7 weeks (hence my frustration ;)). As a result I think it has impacted on his ability in the "2nd effort" area which used to be prior to his injury his absolute strength.
I've been wondering if the fact that he missed all of last season and did a modified pre-season has meant the season has caught up with him because he is not coming off the same fitness base as everyone else ???
Just a thought?
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He’s been consistent and serviceable, but nothing like the player he was in 2002/2003. I have no doubt that if he was anywhere near 100% that he would be spending more time in the middle, rather than playing other defensive type roles.
I agree WP, his second efforts aren’t what they used to be. When you know the way he can play, you have to think he’s either been given a less taxing role to look after him, or he’s just gone backwards. It’s unlike Cogs to play half-hearted footy, so I’m just hoping that this is a good learning year for him, to keep the injury in check, and that things will be easier for him from this season on.
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I've been wondering if the fact that he missed all of last season and did a modified pre-season has meant the season has caught up with him because he is not coming off the same fitness base as everyone else ???
Just a thought?
That's the theory I'd subscribe to WP. For the first 3/4 of the season Cogs was flying. Many here and elsewhere had him finishing top 2 or 3 in the best and fairest as little as a month ago.
He's tapered off the last month but with a limited preseason he's had and having missed a large chucnk of the season before, this year has been great comeback year for him and I'm optimistic about his progress for the years ahead.
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I heard one bloke yell out on Sunday "Coughlan needs to stop believing his own publicity"
I agree with him. I thought the club rushed in too quickly to use him as one of their main marketing faces. He hadn't done enough yet, but I suppose it's all about the looks. Anyway it put extra pressure on that he didn't need.
Like everyone else I saw the signs earlier this year that he might have been finding some early career form, but they were just glimpses more than anything. For the second half of the year, (and most of his short career) he has not been accountable to his opponent. He has been towelled in the midfield and his direct opponent keeps getting possessions at will. He covers a fair bit of ground I suppose, but he was puffing so hard on Sunday that it was preventing him from going in for second efforts. I'm sick of the injury excuse- if he's injured he shouldn't be in the midfield. I've gotta say I haven't been impressed with his body language and his attitude lately either.It seems he doesn't care. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose watched Coggers and thought 'where is your mind at the moment lad'
Look, maybe Coughlan is right, football isn't the most important thing in the world, but if you are going to take your $400K,play 15-18 games a year for the mighty tiges with passion, I want to see nothing left on the field.
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Wouldn't care if he got 15 possessions a game as long as he learnt how to kick......
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Wouldn't care if he got 15 possessions a game as long as he learnt how to kick......
Inclined to agree OM21.
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I hope he is rested for this game but i can't see it happening, maybe the club will be over-cautious and not play him in the wizard cup!
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Wouldn't care if he got 15 possessions a game as long as he learnt how to kick......
But his opponent keeps getting 30 possessions om!
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DC....dont remind me. All our midfields have the worst defensive skills in the game.
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I agree with him. I thought the club rushed in too quickly to use him as one of their main marketing faces. He hadn't done enough yet, but I suppose it's all about the looks. Anyway it put extra pressure on that he didn't need.
Or even want.
Like everyone else I saw the signs earlier this year that he might have been finding some early career form, but they were just glimpses more than anything. For the second half of the year, (and most of his short career) he has not been accountable to his opponent. He has been towelled in the midfield and his direct opponent keeps getting possessions at will. He covers a fair bit of ground I suppose, but he was puffing so hard on Sunday that it was preventing him from going in for second efforts. I'm sick of the injury excuse- if he's injured he shouldn't be in the midfield. I've gotta say I haven't been impressed with his body language and his attitude lately either.It seems he doesn't care. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose watched Coggers and thought 'where is your mind at the moment lad'
Look, maybe Coughlan is right, football isn't the most important thing in the world, but if you are going to take your $400K,play 15-18 games a year for the mighty tiges with passion, I want to see nothing left on the field.
Never thought I’d have to see the day when I read something like that about Cogs. Just a couple of things though, without wanting to sound like I’m making excuses for him. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but apart from a few games in the middle part of the season, I don’t know that he’s been spending as much time in the midfield as people think. He’s been given other less taxing roles and had his training modified, to some degree, to ease the load for him, recently. I could be wrong here too, but I think it’s more like $300k, if you can believe the papers; not that it makes any difference to what we should be able to expect from a player though.
Anyway, no doubt he’s struggling in some way. Whether we can put any or all of it down to injury, or whether it’s something else entirely, who knows, but it doesn’t excuse the attitude. And if you’ve noticed that about him then maybe others may have too.
This is where I sometimes wonder whether it’s the footy club who doesn’t see what’s happening or the player who just doesn’t want to know about it. Clubs shouldn’t be expected to hold players’ hands 24 hours a day, but they shouldn’t throw them in the deep end and then let them drift aimlessly through these sorts of challenges either. Which is what seems to be happening here, to some degree at least. Maybe I’m completely on the wrong track, but you just have to wonder sometimes.
No doubt, all players go through highs and lows, and this is probably no big deal and nothing that couldn’t be easily and quickly nipped in the bud, if there is anything there.
While the injury gives Cogs an excuse, to some degree, as it would be frustrating to deal with, it doesn’t excuse or explain the other signs that you pointed out, that are probably more worrying, because once the attitude falls away it generally affects everything else. The sooner you see the warning signs, the quicker something can be done, if necessary. And I don’t know that we’ve been too good in that department in the past.
Regardless of who the player is, my main concern is that we get a player to a level where he’s playing reasonable football and then, for whatever reason, his career levels out or he just goes backwards. The most obvious early signs of decline generally seem to be the attitude and, while I don’t want to sound like I’m making something out of nothing, this is where I’ve had my doubts, over a number of years, about our Club being able to get a player to a level that’s above average.
Obviously, a lot of it comes back to the player himself but, at the same time, I wouldn’t like to think we’re going down the same track here, where a player has played his best football before his career has barely started, when we didn’t need to.
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I don't know what makes me an authority on Mark Coughlan all of a sudden, but this feeling about Cogs has been stirring up inside me for a few weeks now and is actually the thing I felt most passionate about at the Hawks game. Very interesting comments TS about how the club handles this situation.
When I said
Anyway it put extra pressure on that he didn't need.
and you replied
Or even want.
I'm sorry to have to ask this because you might not be able to reveal it even if you know it to be true. But are you suggesting that Coughlan was forced into all that crap. It really is crap too-but I'm biased I hate marketing in general. But if he was led into that unwillingly that is a disgrace and whoever looked after marketing then is probably already gone anyway. But player/managers are equally to blame and shouldn't let it happen. Aussie Jones comes to mind here too.
This is where I sometimes wonder whether it’s the footy club who doesn’t see what’s happening or the player who just doesn’t want to know about it. Clubs shouldn’t be expected to hold players’ hands 24 hours a day, but they shouldn’t throw them in the deep end and then let them drift aimlessly through these sorts of challenges either. Which is what seems to be happening here, to some degree at least. Maybe I’m completely on the wrong track, but you just have to wonder sometimes.
No,you're on the right track, in fact I think that's where you hit the nail on the head TS. What did happen to Tivendale. He should be a gun footballer. He should be like Leon Cameron or David King in their prime. Or Chaffey, Fiora. Wallace wonders where all the 23-27 yo's are? Where's Dragicevic? Probably doesn't care less about football now! The damage done by Frawley and his predecessors will still linger at the club for years.
The sooner you see the warning signs, the quicker something can be done, if necessary. And I don’t know that we’ve been too good in that department in the past.
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hear, hear
Regardless of who the player is, my main concern is that we get a player to a level where he’s playing reasonable football and then, for whatever reason, his career levels out or he just goes backwards. The most obvious early signs of decline generally seem to be the attitude and, while I don’t want to sound like I’m making something out of nothing, this is where I’ve had my doubts, over a number of years, about our Club being able to get a player to a level that’s above average.
Absolutely TS. Not just a player to a level that's above average, but several players to a level of excellence! Has the club ever promoted it? Obviously that's why there is so much excitement around Deledio winning the rising star award. Heck our last Brownlow medallist was an import, when was our real true last champion ? (I've seen no footy before 1980 and didnt understand properly until about 1990) Well I must admit I thought Knights was gonna pinch a Brownlow one year!
Obviously, a lot of it comes back to the player himself but, at the same time, I wouldn’t like to think we’re going down the same track here, where a player has played his best football before his career has barely started, when we didn’t need to.
I hope not TS, Mark Coughlan's early career form was amongst the most exhilirating, brave and thrilling football that I've ever seen.
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Cogs' attitude was strong towards us last year as he committed to the Tiges for a further 3 years in the midst of one of the worse periods in Richmond's history with Spud, the wooden spoon and the boardroom battles. I wonder if it's a case now of his mind saying do this but his body saying it can no longer do that. It would be frustrating if you couldn't do what you use to be able to do but then again you would need to re-adapt your game.
What did happen to Tivendale. He should be a gun footballer. He should be like Leon Cameron or David King in their prime. Or Chaffey, Fiora. Wallace wonders where all the 23-27 yo's are? Where's Dragicevic? Probably doesn't care less about football now! The damage done by Frawley and his predecessors will still linger at the club for years.
Leon had silky skills and was a two sided footballer. Tivs has no right foot so opposition sides know to block his left side as he doesn't have that "shimmy" or strength in his hips and upper body top players have to always find space in traffic. He also has found a new keeness for short nothing chip passes in the past year or two that most of the time miss their mark when his biggest asset has always been his raking long left foot kick. If only he had that "take 'em on" attitude of a David King - although Kingy had the strength and a intimidation factor being a old Port Melbourne VFA boy to back up that attitude which Tivs doesn't have.
As for the others - Chaffey doesn't have silky skills; Fiora didn't and doesn't have a footy brain nor can win his own footy; and dragga was stuffed by 2 knee recos although he still only had that dreaded "potential" tag before that Daffy up and under hospital "pass" in 2001.
One of the problems with trading away your best draft picks most years like we did under Geisch and Spud is you stop a whole bunch of kids coming through at once. As you say DC we should be striving to have several players achieve a level of excellence but that's hard to do when you don't recruit/draft excellence or enough of it. It's a team game after all.
Not all of the kids we draft will make it and occasionally any club is bound to get a pick wrong but the more kids you have the more room for error you have and the less pressure placed on a talented kid. You can only imagine the pressure of expectation Tambling, Meyer or Pattison would have copped as first round picks if they didn't have each other and Lids around. I sure despite the weight of being number 1 pick still on his shoulders, it would have even been tougher for Lids if he was our only early pick. At long-term poor performing clubs it seems a 17 or 18 year old kid is treated as the messiah that will cure all ills. Heaven help him when he fails to achieve that which is impossible :-\.
Obviously that's why there is so much excitement around Deledio winning the rising star award. Heck our last Brownlow medallist was an import, when was our real true last champion ? (I've seen no footy before 1980 and didnt understand properly until about 1990) Well I must admit I thought Knights was gonna pinch a Brownlow one year!
Depends on your definition of champion. If it's the one that delivers and wins finals off his own boot then it's a choice between Royce and KB. The Flea was a champion in my mind. He was a top youngster in good sides but as he got older and Richmond never finished outside the bottom four he would still walk into State of Origin teams full of the best players from the best sides and always end up in the Vics best players.
I'm sure JohnF will come to Cambo's defence with 4 B&Fs and eight finishes in the top 3 lol ;).
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…this feeling about Cogs has been stirring up inside me for a few weeks now and is actually the thing I felt most passionate about at the Hawks game.
I’ve been a bit the same DC. I know injury can stop a player in his tracks and frustrate his efforts, but as has been said before, why play if it’s that bad? So I can understand your query about his attitude. Guess we just want that Mark Coughlan back.
I'm sorry to have to ask this because you might not be able to reveal it even if you know it to be true. But are you suggesting that Coughlan was forced into all that crap.
Shouldn’t have made it sound like I knew something DC, not sure what I was thinking there. Sorry to do that to you. Nothing more than a hunch really, just from some of the comments he’s made here and there, that I’ve read. Reading between the lines, you just get the feeling that if he did have a choice in the whole thing, he just wasn’t comfortable/confident enough to speak up about it. What was he gonna say anyway? No? I suppose Cogs, being Cogs, just went with it, whether he was ready for it or not and anyone else would’ve done the same thing.
You just hope though that when RFC decided to go down publicity street with him that they were a little bit considerate of who they were dealing with, whether it was Cogs or anyone else, and what the consequences could be if he wasn’t ready to handle everything that went with it. After all, we’re talking about someone’s career. You just wonder how much thought was given to that side of things and, looking back at it now, you probably have to say not a lot.
Not saying his form now has anything to do with that, but does all of that bring extra attention that maybe other players might not get in a similar situation? I guess we can speculate all we like about the reasons for his current form but, more than anything else, what’s been missing, since Round 22, 2003, is that edge to his game that he had before. Which seems to link up with the injury theory. And if you’ve seen something in his attitude then maybe that could explain things a bit further; who knows.
Some on here have mentioned about his skills and so on, but really, his skills aren’t much different now to what they were 2 and 3 years ago. What is different is that edge he had before that’s missing and hasn’t really been there this season. I’d even say that much of the criticism would probably all but disappear if that came back. The closest I’ve seen to that form was the Freo game a few weeks ago, where he did a couple of things that reminded me of 2003, but there aren’t too many examples that easily come to mind, unlike those of a couple of seasons ago.
I guess any criticism now is an indication of how much more forgiving and appreciative people can be when they see someone play with real commitment and heart. Whether his previous good form just masked things, or it just means that you don’t need to be the most skilful player going around to make it probably depends on which view people want to take.
People don’t actually stop criticising players just because they have good skills. In fact, as a Richmond supporter, I’d suggest that they are a whole lot more scathing when they play without any sort of desire, passion or heart. You want and need skill in any team, but all the skill in the world doesn’t mean a whole lot when you see even the most skilled of players (at other Clubs obviously :P) seemingly going through the motions game after game. Someone with average skills, but with a fair amount of confidence and/or drive can be just as effective and awesome to watch. Not only that, they’re probably the heart and soul of any team.
Not sure what most of that’s in response to DC.
Absolutely TS. Not just a player to a level that's above average, but several players to a level of excellence! Has the club ever promoted it? Obviously that's why there is so much excitement around Deledio winning the rising star award.
:rollin Players like Deledio can probably consider themselves lucky, because you would think that RFC has managed to make every conceivable mistake a footy club can possibly make and that there are none left for us to make. If nothing else, RFC can be a shining example to all other clubs of how not to run a footy club, or to treat people and players. On that basis, you would think it would be safe to assume that players will now have a better chance of playing at a level they’re fully capable of.
I hope not TS, Mark Coughlan's early career form was amongst the most exhilirating, brave and thrilling football that I've ever seen.
For you, me and a lot of other people too DC. Would be a dream to see him play that way again. For whatever reason, even though this season hasn’t been anywhere near his best, this year can be a real learning curve for him and set him up for the seasons ahead. I have that faith in him.