One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on January 05, 2008, 05:47:42 AM
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Realfooty's latest poll is on Plough.
Will Terry Wallace be coaching Richmond in 2010?
Yes: 28%
No: 72%
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Bloody hell can't we even get the season started before this sort of crap comes along. It should be will he be there at the end of 08 or will he be there for all of 08. Get off his back and let him do his job. And I think another poll should be is Realfooty worth its space, my answer is no as we are yet to start our season.
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lmao@ aussie media exerting themselves in an attempt to
bait RFC supporters and ultimately have an audience that will ensure they keep their jobs.
Fugem.
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Unless we have another year like 2007 I still think Plough is safe to the end of his current 5-year contract. March has pretty much said so (14th place or better). The Club then needs to sit down towards the end of 2009, look at where our list is at and decide whether Terry is the man to coach us beyond 2009.
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LAST SPOT IN 08.
id still say he will stay. i cant see anyone else improving us with this list for another 1-2 years.
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lmao@ aussie media exerting themselves in an attempt to
bait RFC supporters and ultimately have an audience that will ensure they keep their jobs.
Spot on ())( :thumbsup
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lmao@ aussie media exerting themselves in an attempt to
bait RFC supporters and ultimately have an audience that will ensure they keep their jobs.
Fugem.
Couldn't have said it better myself. One of my pet gripes is the way the media resort to 'old faithful' (having a go at something Richmond) when they are bored or stories are thin. S**ts me to tears and speaks volumes on how shallow and lazy most of the AFL press are.
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We sell papers. Simple as that. Just look at the heading the Herald-Sun went with a few days ago on wooden spoon odds - "Tigers on outer for odds". Both us and Dees were at $4 but only us appeared in the heading. "Demons on outer for odds" wouldn't grab anywhere near the same attention.
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terry hasn't proven much yet but l still feel alot of faith in him and hope he's coach for a long time to come ! :pray
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I feel that the money invested in the football department is a sign from the board that they have faith in Terry and his coaching principles as well as the day to day team decisions and nurturing and hence they will keep him and he will see out his contract to 2009 so long as there is some sort of improvement in terms of match results.
Terry will only get the chop if we have a year as horrific as 07 in 2008, but having said that I feel we won't and he will be there in 2009. Hopefully Terry has learnt from 2007 and the previous two and will scale back his media persona to concentrate on his coaching and development of the team.
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hope so ...
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wait till it really cranks up before the season :whistle, have been told by a couple of journo friends that Terry is in for a torid time this year, my journo mates reckon they know what buttons to push to get a reaction from the RFC and the supporters.
Cant wait as i reckon TW will be fired up this year. :thumbsup
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club needs to hold its nerve until r22. then weigh it all up.
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The Club held its nerve with Spud so you expect it to do so with Plough. Off-field the Club is now stable and financially profitable.
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The Club held its nerve with Spud so you expect it to do so with Plough. Off-field the Club is now stable and financially profitable.
The club was forced to do so with Spud MT after the idiot from Qld decided to spit on him at the race and a couple of other incidents with the supporter pointing at him at the race who went on the footy show and the guy who accosted him at the SCG. It gave Spud a vote of symapthy in the media after a string of poor performances.
If the media start winding up the feral instinct of some of our fans we might find that things unfortunantely get out out of hand with the fans and thus force the club to hold off on making a final decision until things ease slightly. That is if things go awry on field and of course we are all hopng they don't. :pray
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you guys might like it but you better get used to it
terry will be the coach under most pressure in 08
the best way to stop it? win some games
if he doesnt watch out
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The Club held its nerve with Spud so you expect it to do so with Plough. Off-field the Club is now stable and financially profitable.
The club was forced to do so with Spud MT after the idiot from Qld decided to spit on him at the race and a couple of other incidents with the supporter pointing at him at the race who went on the footy show and the guy who accosted him at the SCG. It gave Spud a vote of symapthy in the media after a string of poor performances.
If the media start winding up the feral instinct of some of our fans we might find that things unfortunantely get out out of hand with the fans and thus force the club to hold off on making a final decision until things ease slightly. That is if things go awry on field and of course we are all hopng they don't. :pray
You would hope it would never to that stage again where one or two idiots give the rest of us a bad name.
I don't think the Club wants the stigma of sacking another coach even though we've only had one change of coach over the past 9 years. Miller and March have always been big on stability.
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wait till it really cranks up before the season :whistle, have been told by a couple of journo friends that Terry is in for a torid time this year, my journo mates reckon they know what buttons to push to get a reaction from the RFC and the supporters.
Cant wait as i reckon TW will be fired up this year. :thumbsup
Have said this before, The RfC is very lucky to have TW to take the punishment that he has and will in the future . A long term plan has been activated and thankfully short term results will not influence the direction of the board.
For the first time since the 70s the board is being run by professionalls. SW is a genuine gun. Right up there with swann
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i agree in some way but my thoughts on TW have never altered. He has wasted 2 years of that 5.
If he was so big on a plan, this that then he should've had the expierience to do it from the start, not after round 1 this year.
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Kent Kingsley ring a bell anyone :chuck
Trading a top pick for Jordon McMahon, oh yeah, Terry has a plan ::)
He is planning to join the unemployment queue come end of August. :lol :lol :lol :lol
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Hmmm..... plans...
Trading for Graham Polak - that was stupid :banghead - no plan there
taking Goudis in the pre-season instead of re-cycled - no hint of a plan there
Nope cannot see a plan anywhere ::)
Now Little Jack before you start on the Kent Kinsgley thing (again) - 2 words Mark Graham - same thing except Graham didn't get injured. The Graham thing worked the Kinsgley thing didn't. He was only ever insurance nothing more nothing less
i agree in some way but my thoughts on TW have never altered. He has wasted 2 years of that 5.
If he was so big on a plan, this that then he should've had the expierience to do it from the start, not after round 1 this year.
I reckon he has been pretty clear from day 1 with what he was trying to do with the list and wanting to develop our own players. From the day he arrived to now there are only a handful in the list that remain and the vast majority that have come along have been youngster, even McMahon is only 23-24.
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Hmmm..... plans...
Trading for Graham Polak - that was stupid :banghead - no plan there
taking Goudis in the pre-season instead of re-cycled - no hint of a plan there
Nope cannot see a plan anywhere ::)
Now Little Jack before you start on the Kent Kinsgley thing (again) - 2 words Mark Graham - same thing except Graham didn't get injured. The Graham thing worked the Kinsgley thing didn't. He was only ever insurance nothing more nothing less
i agree in some way but my thoughts on TW have never altered. He has wasted 2 years of that 5.
If he was so big on a plan, this that then he should've had the expierience to do it from the start, not after round 1 this year.
I reckon he has been pretty clear from day 1 with what he was trying to do with the list and wanting to develop our own players. From the day he arrived to now there are only a handful in the list that remain and the vast majority that have come along have been youngster, even McMahon is only 23-24.
way too much sense in this post for some WP.
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all im saying u fruitloops is wallace may have a plan now because its all gone to poo but that wasnt the case when he got here.
he didnt study the list hard enough cause if he did he would've pulled a hawthorn and recruited young from the outset. graham, KK etc etc
if what u say is right then why the hell didnt he take rookies instead of them. Ill tell you why, In KK's case he was a top up cause we finished 9th he thought maybe he will get us into the 8. well wrong he was.
U guys r blinded by god knows what. He maybe on the right track now but he has a lot to prove before i concede he is right man behond 2008
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Ive said it before i dont think anyone can do anything different than what he is doing right now.
To be honest i would rather see wallace see out his contract than KJ be captain for another year. Without a stronger leader we cannot be competetive and that is a fact.
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you guys might like it but you better get used to it
terry will be the coach under most pressure in 08
the best way to stop it? win some games
if he doesnt watch out
Thanks...
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Now Little Jack before you start on the Kent Kinsgley thing (again) - 2 words Mark Graham - same thing except Graham didn't get injured. The Graham thing worked the Kinsgley thing didn't. He was only ever insurance nothing more nothing less
Looking back on that PSD though, we missed out on some big names.... Chris Bryan, Cameron Cloke...there was also Matthew Clarke, he'd have been handy if we'd had known our ruckmen were all going to get injured, but he was only ever going to provide one year of service.
We didn't give up much for Kingsley, I'm not sure why it's always brought up.
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I couldn't see Miller voting Wallace out of a job at board level.
Ive been to a few Presidents dinners where Miller has waxed lyrical about Wallace so much I just find it impossible to believe he'd pull the trigger.
Ive always backed Wallace, but i'm starting to get very uncomfortable with our list structure and lack of mongrel (ala his Dogs of the mid-late 90s) however Im sure the board won't pink slip him even with treble spoons.
Oh and Blaisees spot on with his assesment of Steve Wright.
He's the man!
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all im saying u fruitloops is wallace may have a plan now because its all gone to pooh but that wasnt the case when he got here.
he didnt study the list hard enough cause if he did he would've pulled a hawthorn and recruited young from the outset. graham, KK etc etc
if what u say is right then why the hell didnt he take rookies instead of them. Ill tell you why, In KK's case he was a top up cause we finished 9th he thought maybe he will get us into the 8. well wrong he was.
U guys r blinded by god knows what. He maybe on the right track now but he has a lot to prove before i concede he is right man behond 2008
terry thought our list was capable of finals very early
oh how wrong he was :rollin
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only one thing comes after jack
its usually s h i t
jacks h i t
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only one thing comes after jack
its usually s h i t
jacks h i t
theres also the "little" that preceeds it too :thumbsup
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all im saying u fruitloops is wallace may have a plan now because its all gone to pooh but that wasnt the case when he got here.
he didnt study the list hard enough cause if he did he would've pulled a hawthorn and recruited young from the outset. graham, KK etc etc
if what u say is right then why the hell didnt he take rookies instead of them. Ill tell you why, In KK's case he was a top up cause we finished 9th he thought maybe he will get us into the 8. well wrong he was.
U guys r blinded by god knows what. He maybe on the right track now but he has a lot to prove before i concede he is right man behond 2008
terry thought our list was capable of finals very early
oh how wrong he was :rollin
Correct
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I couldn't see Miller voting Wallace out of a job at board level.
Ive been to a few Presidents dinners where Miller has waxed lyrical about Wallace so much I just find it impossible to believe he'd pull the trigger.
Ive always backed Wallace, but i'm starting to get very uncomfortable with our list structure and lack of mongrel (ala his Dogs of the mid-late 90s) however Im sure the board won't pink slip him even with treble spoons.
Oh and Blaisees spot on with his assesment of Steve Wright.
He's the man!
Treble spoons will mean pink slip
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all im saying u fruitloops is wallace may have a plan now because its all gone to pooh but that wasnt the case when he got here.
he didnt study the list hard enough cause if he did he would've pulled a hawthorn and recruited young from the outset. graham, KK etc etc
if what u say is right then why the hell didnt he take rookies instead of them. Ill tell you why, In KK's case he was a top up cause we finished 9th he thought maybe he will get us into the 8. well wrong he was.
U guys r blinded by god knows what. He maybe on the right track now but he has a lot to prove before i concede he is right man behond 2008
terry thought our list was capable of finals very early
oh how wrong he was :rollin
Correct
So Little Jackie - you think there are alot of fruitloops on here too ::)
all im saying u fruitloops is wallace may have a plan now because its all gone to pooh but that wasnt the case when he got here.
he didnt study the list hard enough cause if he did he would've pulled a hawthorn and recruited young from the outset. graham, KK etc etc
if what u say is right then why the hell didnt he take rookies instead of them. Ill tell you why, In KK's case he was a top up cause we finished 9th he thought maybe he will get us into the 8. well wrong he was.
U guys r blinded by god knows what. He maybe on the right track now but he has a lot to prove before i concede he is right man behond 2008
I don't think I am a fruitloop btw but....
He has been there 3 years and we have one of the youngest lists in the comp. Take out KK and Mark Graham and I reckon you'll find that all other players recruited have been under 24. Certainly at the national draft it's been teenagers, teenagers and more kids.
I
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To answer WP,s question on fruitloops..
There are some. ;)
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Ive always backed Wallace, but i'm starting to get very uncomfortable with our list structure and lack of mongrel (ala his Dogs of the mid-late 90s)
??? They had quite a few mongrels and lots of mongrel. They were probably the nastiest team going around back then.
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Ive always backed Wallace, but i'm starting to get very uncomfortable with our list structure and lack of mongrel (ala his Dogs of the mid-late 90s)
??? They had quite a few mongrels and lots of mongrel. They were probably the nastiest team going around back then.
spot on. alot of their game was sheer tenacity. Southern, Dimma, Romero, Libba just off the top of my head.
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They'd bite and scratch too.
Back to Plough, here's his recruits at the age they were first recruited. 37 in total with 24 of them teenagers and only three over 24 years old.
17: Lids, McGuane, JON
18: Tambo, Meyer, Patto, Polo, Limbach, Thursty*
Hughes, Casserly, White, A.Graham*
Jack, Edwards, Connors, Collins, Clingan*
Cotchin, Rance, Putt, Gourdis
19: Peterson, Collard*
20: Morton, Howat*
22: Polak, Cartledge*, Silvester*, King*, Humm*
24: McMahon, Knobel, P.Bowden
26: Simmonds
28: Kingsley
32: M.Graham
* - began as a rookie
red - gone
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bottom line is this.
3 spoons in 5 years is a disgrace i dont care what any of you say. train wreck train wreck that. who cares.
he has 5 years now just because we r the rfc why should we accept failure.
I wonder if malthouse and co would still be around if they delivered 2 spoons.
wallace is weak and its showing on the players. they have no balls much unlike his previous doggies.
i hope i am proving wrong but our players need to toughen the hell up because teams laugh at us when they see us in the fixture especially interstate ones.
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bottom line is this.
You are so far removed from the bottom line it's scary.
i hope i am proving wrong
No need to worry, you will get your wish in spades!
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bottom line is this.
3 spoons in 5 years is a disgrace i dont care what any of you say. train wreck train wreck that. who cares.
When did we win a 3rd spoon :gobdrop
We are not Carlton for crying out loud :rollin
2007 (Wallace) = 16th
2006 (wallace) = 9th
2005 (wallace) = 12th
2004 (Spud) = 16th
2003 (spud) = 13th
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Ive always backed Wallace, but i'm starting to get very uncomfortable with our list structure and lack of mongrel (ala his Dogs of the mid-late 90s)
??? They had quite a few mongrels and lots of mongrel. They were probably the nastiest team going around back then.
:stupid
Errr.....I meant to say unlike and instead typed ala....... well picked out.
Its actually something I was really hoping to see in a Richmond side when TW was appointed as we've been so passive for so long now.
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bottom line is this.
3 spoons in 5 years is a disgrace i dont care what any of you say. train wreck train wreck that. who cares.
he has 5 years now just because we r the rfc why should we accept failure.
I wonder if malthouse and co would still be around if they delivered 2 spoons.
wallace is weak and its showing on the players. they have no balls much unlike his previous doggies.
i hope i am proving wrong but our players need to toughen the hell up because teams laugh at us when they see us in the fixture especially interstate ones.
Totally agree.
It was no surprise to me that the tiges won the spoon in 2007, knowing what I know.
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It was no surprise to me that the tiges won the spoon in 2007, knowing what I know.
Pardon my ignorance but from what I read in your posts you don't seem to know much at all. I understand that you claim to be someone with access to the inner sanctum but from my perspective you come across as someone very bitter about some (perceived?) personal injustice and now carry a huge chip on your shoulder about all things Richmond. If you made even a small attempt to back up your claims with just a tiny shred of factual evidence then maybe I could believe, but.........! Maybe you really support another team and you just come here to troll???????????
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It was no surprise to me that the tiges won the spoon in 2007, knowing what I know.
Pardon my ignorance but from what I read in your posts you don't seem to know much at all. I understand that you claim to be someone with access to the inner sanctum but from my perspective you come across as someone very bitter about some (perceived?) personal injustice and now carry a huge chip on your shoulder about all things Richmond. If you made even a small attempt to back up your claims with just a tiny shred of factual evidence then maybe I could believe, but.........! Maybe you really support another team and you just come here to troll???????????
Just Private message me,.only happy to tell you
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The Club at the end of 2004 thought there would be a chance of two finals windows - a short-term one 2008-9 containing our current senior players and a longer-lasting one (2011+). I think they realise now the first window was never going to happen (our senior players are too few and many not good enough or on the wrong side of their prime). The focus is now making sure the resources are there to develop a new core and a list with depth that is good enough to challenge from 2011 onwards.
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bottom line is this.
3 spoons in 5 years is a disgrace i dont care what any of you say. train wreck train wreck that. who cares.
When did we win a 3rd spoon :gobdrop
We are not Carlton for crying out loud :rollin
2007 (Wallace) = 16th
2006 (wallace) = 9th
2005 (wallace) = 12th
2004 (Spud) = 16th
2003 (spud) = 13th
mate stop acting like harbijian when he got punter out for a minute and read what i wrote.
3 spoons in 3 years is exactly what i said. I know it wasnt ALL wallace all im saying that we as supporters deserve better than that.
i hope it doesnt happen but if it does its not on and u guys maybe be able to deal with medicrity but ive had enough. i want see this team the way it was in the early 80's
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The Club at the end of 2004 thought there would be a chance of two finals windows - a short-term one 2008-9 containing our current senior players and a longer-lasting one (2011+). I think they realise now the first window was never going to happen (our senior players are too few and many not good enough or on the wrong side of their prime). The focus is now making sure the resources are there to develop a new core and a list with depth that is good enough to challenge from 2011 onwards.
spot on mate. our current senior are no way near good enough to take this team anywhere thats why i personally cant wait for Lids or foley to take over as captain and we can see some real talent leading this group.
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bottom line is this.
3 spoons in 5 years is a disgrace i dont care what any of you say. train wreck train wreck that. who cares.
When did we win a 3rd spoon :gobdrop
We are not Carlton for crying out loud :rollin
2007 (Wallace) = 16th
2006 (wallace) = 9th
2005 (wallace) = 12th
2004 (Spud) = 16th
2003 (spud) = 13th
mate stop acting like harbijian when he got punter out for a minute and read what i wrote.
3 spoons in 3 years is exactly what i said. I know it wasnt ALL wallace all im saying that we as supporters deserve better than that.
i hope it doesnt happen but if it does its not on and u guys maybe be able to deal with medicrity but ive had enough. i want see this team the way it was in the early 80's
Who knows what will happen this year. We may get super lucky with no injuries to key Tigers and overachieve for all we know. We haven't even played a practice match yet and we're already talking about spoons ???. Even if we did win the spoon it would mean we'd get first crack at the best two kids in the country in a strong draft plus the best uncontracted player. The only way we can rebuild our list and bring the best talent into the club is via the draft. You can't go out and buy players like in the early 80's. That sent us broke anyway which is what got us into this 25 year long mess in the first place :banghead.
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3 spoons in 3 years is exactly what i said. I know it wasnt ALL wallace all im saying that we as supporters deserve better than that.
:o :-\
daniel161 - I read what you wrote and it was "3 spoons in 5 years".
The point is we have one 2 wooden spoons in the last 5 years, not 3. That's what I replied to and why asked when did we win the 3rd one? If you think we are going to win another one in 2008 ...well a tad bit early to say. :thumbsup
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I find supporters short sightedness and lack of faith disturbing. I'm not sure if Tw will prove to be our first premiership coach in over 27 years but I do believe he, with the backing of the administration, are doing everything in ther power to work towards a strong and successful side which will play regular finals and perhaps even challenge for the flag.
TW is the perfect coach for us at our current stage of development. If we didn't have a caoch who was as media-savy (read - a spin doctor) we would never have given him and the club enough time to do the hard yards and rebuild our list from the ground up. If he had been given a shorter contract the process would have also been derailed.
Regardless of what you think you know of the man, TW has put his reputuation on the line for our club and he has done what is best for our team rather than himself. Our list is full of potential and talent but they are all developing. Our older players are there now to offer education, protection and a semblance of repectability. They are not there to win us a premiership - that boat set sail and sank in the harbour years ago and every patch work repair we have made onto it hasn't given uncovered any further success since.
TW should be given the time to reap the rewards of the hard work he has done. If he lost his contract now the next coach would seem like a miracle worker when in reality it would be TW recruiting, coaching and long-term goal that will ensure our long term success.
Kingsley was insurance just as Howat and our other rookie ruckman (sorry his name eludes me at present). McMahon may prove to be a great addition to our structure providing run and beautiful deliver from the backline and most importantly freeing up Newman (preferable) or Bowden into the midfield.
Have faith and be patient. At the very least applaud TW and our administrators for attemting to rebuild and working together to achieve long-term success. How many Tiger boards have sacrificed coaches after a brief stint at the helm for not achieving immediate success in the past. We can't make the same mistake again or we will achieve the same result as they did - endless failure.
IMHO TW deserves to see out his contact...at the very least.
Stripes
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3 spoons in 3 years is exactly what i said. I know it wasnt ALL wallace all im saying that we as supporters deserve better than that.
:o :-\
daniel161 - I read what you wrote and it was "3 spoons in 5 years".
The point is we have one 2 wooden spoons in the last 5 years, not 3. That's what I replied to and why asked when did we win the 3rd one? If you think we are going to win another one in 2008 ...well a tad bit early to say. :thumbsup
no worries harbijian
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Great post Stripes :clapping
TW should be given the time to reap the rewards of the hard work he has done. If he lost his contract now the next coach would seem like a miracle worker when in reality it would be TW recruiting, coaching and long-term goal that will ensure our long term success.
Unfortunately the nature of being a senior coach. Bomber Thompson only just survived the knife before seeing the fruit of his labour. Most of the Eagles' premiership side were recruited under Ken Judge before Worsfold took over. Likewise at the Swans with Roos taking over from Eade. Even when Sheeds started at Essendon he inherited his first batch of baby bombers from Barry Davis.
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Well another thing Cousins has done is distract the media's attention away from Plough over the preseason and these will he or won't he coach polls.
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For now..
Let's hope the positive ride we are on right now continues but Cousins or no Cousins, all the hype won't matter when the ball is bounced in rnd 1.
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We had a quick chat with Plough after training and he basically said it's taken a while as we waited for the boys to develop but the hard yards have been done now and "it's now time to have some fun".
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We had a quick chat with Plough after training and he basically said it's taken a while as we waited for the boys to develop but the hard yards have been done now and "it's now time to have some fun".
Whooo Hooo! ;D
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We had a quick chat with Plough after training and he basically said it's taken a while as we waited for the boys to develop but the hard yards have been done now and "it's now time to have some fun".
Everyone, from the coach to the media, seem to be pumping up our list and chances. Very exciting on one hand but dangerous too.... :-\
Stripes
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Well another thing Cousins has done is distract the media's attention away from Plough over the preseason and these will he or won't he coach polls.
Yup and kept Daniel off his back here too :lol
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Everyone, from the coach to the media, seem to be pumping up our list and chances. Very exciting on one hand but dangerous too.... :-\
Stripes
I just hope we're not a St Kilda or Collingwood, as in we make finals regularly but are miles off a flag.
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We had a quick chat with Plough after training and he basically said it's taken a while as we waited for the boys to develop but the hard yards have been done now and "it's now time to have some fun".
Everyone, from the coach to the media, seem to be pumping up our list and chances. Very exciting on one hand but dangerous too.... :-\
Stripes
just wanted to tell u how stupid writing your name at the end of every post is!
[]())([]™
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wait till it really cranks up before the season :whistle, have been told by a couple of journo friends that Terry is in for a torid time this year, my journo mates reckon they know what buttons to push to get a reaction from the RFC and the supporters.
Cant wait as i reckon TW will be fired up this year. :thumbsup
Even a hint of the Tiges being up and about and we are news. it is as simple as that. Get ready for more.
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wait till it really cranks up before the season :whistle, have been told by a couple of journo friends that Terry is in for a torid time this year, my journo mates reckon they know what buttons to push to get a reaction from the RFC and the supporters.
Hope you pointed out to them that they are there to report news not make it up. Sounds pretty unprofessional to me. They work for the HUN right?
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We had a quick chat with Plough after training and he basically said it's taken a while as we waited for the boys to develop but the hard yards have been done now and "it's now time to have some fun".
Everyone, from the coach to the media, seem to be pumping up our list and chances. Very exciting on one hand but dangerous too.... :-\
Stripes
just wanted to tell u how stupid writing your name at the end of every post is!
[]())([]™
:lol
This coming from a 'man' who has trade marked a bunch of brackets....you were joking weren't you!? :P
Stripes
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Everyone, from the coach to the media, seem to be pumping up our list and chances. Very exciting on one hand but dangerous too.... :-\
Stripes
I just hope we're not a St Kilda or Collingwood, as in we make finals regularly but are miles off a flag.
Now thats a stupid comment isn't it.
I just want to make finals then we can reassess after that if we aren't turning that into grand finals
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We had a quick chat with Plough after training and he basically said it's taken a while as we waited for the boys to develop but the hard yards have been done now and "it's now time to have some fun".
Everyone, from the coach to the media, seem to be pumping up our list and chances. Very exciting on one hand but dangerous too.... :-\
Stripes
True we could end up with egg on our face if we fail to make the finals plus this publicity is 180 degree turnaround from the hush hush let the footy do the talking attitude of this time last year. However I guess from Plough's point of view whether he keeps it low key or pumps it up he still needs to get us to the finals to save his job. There would also be off-field pressure to promote the club when we are chasing a new second major sponsor in a difficult financial climate.
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Robbo on SEN said Wallace is going to be under the most pressure as coach this year. Plough won't be sacked by round 4 but there'll be massive pressure if Richmond are 0-3 after the first 3 rounds with Carlton, Geelong and Bulldogs first up. The Carlton game is crucial. Robbo said March has said a decision will be made midway through this year so Richmond will have to be good to be 8-3 or 7-4 by the halfway mark of the season to sure up Wallace's position.
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Robbo on SEN said Wallace is going to be under the most pressure as coach this year. Plough won't be sacked by round 4 but there'll be massive pressure if Richmond are 0-3 after the first 3 rounds with Carlton, Geelong and Bulldogs first up. The Carlton game is crucial. Robbo said March has said a decision will be made midway through this year so Richmond will have to be good to be 8-3 or 7-4 by the halfway mark of the season to sure up Wallace's position.
Our season is more even this year than last with a better spread of stronger and weaker opponents based on last year performances. Within our first 6 games we place Melbourne(R1) and Carlton(R6) but the rest of the games will be very difficult so it would not surprize me if we were not 1-5 or 2-4 by this stage. The first 5 games may give the media and opposition supporters plenty of ammunition but as the season progresses we will improve I have no doubt. If, on the otherhand, we come out of the first 6 running even then we are sure to be in for a magnificant year.
TW should be safe regardless IMHO.
Stripes
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If we are 0-3 then of course Plough is going to be under pressure and not just from the media. The Club is expecting finals. 13 wins or more is the pass mark. A poor start like that would mean Plough would need 13 wins from 19. Still doable but a tough ask. If we're 2-1 though then poor Robbo will have to find someone else to write about :yep.
I loved how Robbo thinks Bailey is safe even if the Dees end up 0-16 and Knighter is safe no matter what as well :wallywink. Bomber fans are expecting finals and some even think top 4 :o :rollin. I reckon Laidley, Lyon, Craig, Harvey, Williams and even Malthouse after 10 years could all find themselves under pressure as well if their teams have poor years. We could find a few clubs looking for a new coach at the same time.
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TW should be safe regardless IMHO.
No way, no how.
After 5 seasons it's finals or bust and give someone else a crack.
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TW should be safe regardless IMHO.
No way, no how.
After 5 seasons it's finals or bust and give someone else a crack.
Stripes, just to clarify you meant he is safe in the first six rounds regardless of performance in the first six rounds dont you?
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Its a simple equation based on where we finish:
1-6: he will get another couple
7-8: the board will see how the young fellas are progressing and whether over the season and in the finals we can quit our habit of being totally uncompetitive in some matches (e.g Sydney @ SCG last year)
9-10: He'd be very lucky
11-16: No
Now I think there is a lot of potential in the list, but at times last season, even over the second half of the season, I thought we were only a serious Richo injury from becoming a below average team.
If we get a good run with injuries, get through the first 6 games OK and the players are hungry then we should be OK.
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Robbo on SEN said Wallace is going to be under the most pressure as coach this year. Plough won't be sacked by round 4 but there'll be massive pressure if Richmond are 0-3 after the first 3 rounds with Carlton, Geelong and Bulldogs first up. The Carlton game is crucial. Robbo said March has said a decision will be made midway through this year so Richmond will have to be good to be 8-3 or 7-4 by the halfway mark of the season to sure up Wallace's position.
Our season is more even this year than last with a better spread of stronger and weaker opponents based on last year performances. Within our first 6 games we place Melbourne(R1) and Carlton(R6) but the rest of the games will be very difficult so it would not surprize me if we were not 1-5 or 2-4 by this stage. The first 5 games may give the media and opposition supporters plenty of ammunition but as the season progresses we will improve I have no doubt. If, on the otherhand, we come out of the first 6 running even then we are sure to be in for a magnificant year.
TW should be safe regardless IMHO.
Stripes
TW should be safe regardless IMHO you say??
okay whatever you think Stripes
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Its a simple equation based on where we finish:
1-6: he will get another couple
7-8: the board will see how the young fellas are progressing and whether over the season and in the finals we can quit our habit of being totally uncompetitive in some matches (e.g Sydney @ SCG last year)
9-10: He'd be very lucky
11-16: No
Now I think there is a lot of potential in the list, but at times last season, even over the second half of the season, I thought we were only a serious Richo injury from becoming a below average team.
If we get a good run with injuries, get through the first 6 games OK and the players are hungry then we should be OK.
Please dont mention the SCG last game again will you.
I was there solo and it was very forgettable.
Now Stripes i dont know what games you have been watching but this TW has had 4 years of which we have played SFA finals.
Simple. Play finals and he stays. Miss finals and FFS finally show this guy the door.
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Simple. Play finals and he stays. Miss finals and FFS finally show this guy the door.
So daniel if (when ;D) we play finals how many years extension would you give him?
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Simple. Play finals and he stays. Miss finals and FFS finally show this guy the door.
So daniel if (when ;D) we play finals how many years extension would you give him?
Maybe a 3 year extension but sack him after 10 games into it after the tiges drop an easy game? ;D
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Its a simple equation based on where we finish:
1-6: he will get another couple
7-8: the board will see how the young fellas are progressing and whether over the season and in the finals we can quit our habit of being totally uncompetitive in some matches (e.g Sydney @ SCG last year)
9-10: He'd be very lucky
11-16: No
Now I think there is a lot of potential in the list, but at times last season, even over the second half of the season, I thought we were only a serious Richo injury from becoming a below average team.
If we get a good run with injuries, get through the first 6 games OK and the players are hungry then we should be OK.
If we wait until end of round 22 we will miss out on potential replacements
The decision on Wallace will be made before round 15
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which would mean they already have somebody.....
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Now Stripes i dont know what games you have been watching but this TW has had 4 years of which we have played SFA finals.
Simple. Play finals and he stays. Miss finals and FFS finally show this guy the door.
I was referring to the first 6 games not the season as a whole. Regardless I think if we continue to show improvement, which is finals in 2009, then he should be given an extention. Even the worst sceptic can see we have improved and our young side is on the way up which is exactly what TW was brought in to do.
The question you should be asking is if we get rid of TW is the next coach going to do any better or will it just be the maturity of the playing list? TW is a good game day coach who has developed the list to suit his game plan so why risk bringing in a coach that could attempt to change the list, style of play and push our flag chances back even further.
Patience is the key
Stripes
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To be hoest with you all. I think that he should go no further than the end of this season.
I do think that he has had enough time to prove his point without much of a great result.
As for who to replace him well there might be a couple like Nathan Buckely for one.
He might step up and become a seniors coach in 2010. And there is alway Sheedy to.
Though I wouldn't be suprised to see him get another 2 year added to his contract and I can live with that to.
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The question you should be asking is if we get rid of TW is the next coach going to do any better or will it just be the maturity of the playing list? TW is a good game day coach who has developed the list to suit his game plan so why risk bringing in a coach that could attempt to change the list, style of play and push our flag chances back even further.
because we might get better.
Wallace has had 5 years towards building for this coming season.
I am not simply hoping that we just fall into the 8, I want to see us pushing the best teams in the competition to the limit.
Many don't want to hear it but after this year we have 6 30+yr olds the likes of Cousins, Brown, Bowden, Johnson, Simmonds and Richardson all getting close to the end. A few won't be there in 2011 and those that are will be well past their best.
The key forward/ruck stocks are still very uncertain.
We have got some pain ahead even if we make the 8 this year unless some of these talented kids step up very quickly.
patience is the key
Patience? 5 years is patience enough. I want to see some success.
Either Terry makes it happen in '09 or someone else gets a turn.
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Simple. Play finals and he stays. Miss finals and FFS finally show this guy the door.
So daniel if (when ;D) we play finals how many years extension would you give him?
WP you need to get your head out of TW's behind for a sec and understand the whole picture.
he deserves not even a year extension he has done SFA and you all know it.
show me a coach in the history of the AFL who has had the first 4 completed years of coaching with no finals and still had a job.
however if i see finals i will be so happy he would be the last person on my mind.
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WP you need to get your head out of TW's behind for a sec and understand the whole picture.
he deserves not even a year extension he has done SFA and you all know it.
show me a coach in the history of the AFL who has had the first 4 completed years of coaching with no finals and still had a job.
however if i see finals i will be so happy he would be the last person on my mind.
daniel you need to read the question I asked and answer it
You said that if we don't play finals he is gone - guess what I agree with you.
No doubt; no finals = no contract extension
My question to you was - if we play finals, he gets a new contract you even said that; how long would you give him? 1, 2 or 3 years
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My question to you was - if we play finals, he gets a new contract you even said that; how long would you give him? 1, 2 or 3 years
I've made the question stick out a bit more which may help
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My question to you was - if we play finals, he gets a new contract you even said that; how long would you give him? 1, 2 or 3 years
I've made the question stick out a bit more which may help
okay 1 year thats all he deserves.
he deserves 1 year for making me see my 3 finals campaign since 1982, in fact anyone does
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Simple. Play finals and he stays. Miss finals and FFS finally show this guy the door.
So daniel if (when ;D) we play finals how many years extension would you give him?
WP you need to get your head out of TW's behind for a sec and understand the whole picture.
What's the whole picture ???????
Tell me....and yeh WP,get ur head out of ur khoulo :lol
however if i see finals i will be so happy he would be the last person on my mind.
Does that even make any sense ???
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WP you need to get your head out of TW's behind for a sec and understand the whole picture.
I'm confident you wouldn't know the whole picture if it jumped up and bit you on your rump.
show me a coach in the history of the AFL who has had the first 4 completed years of coaching with no finals and still had a job.
Mark Thompson's record of 5th (and out in their first game), 12th, 9th and 12th is close enough to prove your point fos but for the record:
Denis Pagan - Carlton - 15th, 11th, 16th, 16th.
or another one just as close/bad as Thompson:
Dean Laidley - Kangaroos - 10th, 10th, 7th (and out in their first game), 14th.
however if i see finals i will be so happy he would be the last person on my mind.
Proving how shallow and fickle your 'considered' opinion really is.
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Great facts Smokey.
Maybe we could give TW a year contract with an extra year extension based on a clause that if the tiges go backward he is to be publicly flogged. That may settle some of the excitable supporters we have.
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WP you need to get your head out of TW's behind for a sec and understand the whole picture.
I'm confident you wouldn't know the whole picture if it jumped up and bit you on your rump.
show me a coach in the history of the AFL who has had the first 4 completed years of coaching with no finals and still had a job.
Mark Thompson's record of 5th (and out in their first game), 12th, 9th and 12th is close enough to prove your point fos but for the record:
Denis Pagan - Carlton - 15th, 11th, 16th, 16th.
or another one just as close/bad as Thompson:
Dean Laidley - Kangaroos - 10th, 10th, 7th (and out in their first game), 14th.
however if i see finals i will be so happy he would be the last person on my mind.
Proving how shallow and fickle your 'considered' opinion really is.
show me a coach in the history of the AFL who has had the first 4 completed years of coaching with no finals and still had a job is what i said?
I see you still have an issue reading english.
I thought maybe over the summer you might have eased up and let the mrs go to town on you, but clearly that hasn't happened so i guess we are stuck with your childish comments.
Denis Pagan is a dud and we will be heading down that road if TW doesn't pull his finger out of his ar-se so in fairness thats 1 coach.
As for Bomber and Laidely, they made finals didn't they fool. Something we haven't done very well in 25 years.
Lets worry about making finals first and as a long time supporter its all about that one thing "FINALS".
I dont care about how good a "game day " coach he is i want to hear about how good a overall coach he is.
Cant believe someone on here said that to be honest. Look at the buldogs and what happened there. Great "game day" coach our TW was but they didn't win a flag now did they.
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show me a coach in the history of the AFL who has had the first 4 completed years of coaching with no finals and still had a job is what i said?
I see you still have an issue reading english.
I quoted an example and also 2 other 'close enoughs' to prove your statement as full of crap. No problem with my comprehension com-padre.
I thought maybe over the summer you might have eased up and let the mrs go to town on you, but clearly that hasn't happened so i guess we are stuck with your childish comments.
:scream What the?
Denis Pagan is a dud and we will be heading down that road if TW doesn't pull his finger out of his ar-se so in fairness thats 1 coach.
As for Bomber and Laidely, they made finals didn't they fool. Something we haven't done very well in 25 years.
Mmmm, something 2 other coaching legends in Northey and Frawley achieved. There's the benchmark of a great coach if ever I heard it.
Lets worry about making finals first and as a long time supporter its all about that one thing "FINALS".
As a longer time supporter it's nothing to do with finals and everything to do with building a core in the club that continually puts the team in a premiership winning position. Ask St Kilda or Collingwod how well you travel making finals every year. You may as well look at pictures of naked woman - teasing but useless.
I dont care about how good a "game day " coach he is i want to hear about how good a overall coach he is.
Cant believe someone on here said that to be honest. Look at the buldogs and what happened there. Great "game day" coach our TW was but they didn't win a flag now did they.
Was that the same club that Malthouse coached for 6 years to 1 final appearance before getting the flick?
You are a genuine knob.
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The question you should be asking is if we get rid of TW is the next coach going to do any better or will it just be the maturity of the playing list? TW is a good game day coach who has developed the list to suit his game plan so why risk bringing in a coach that could attempt to change the list, style of play and push our flag chances back even further.
because we might get better.
Wallace has had 5 years towards building for this coming season.
I am not simply hoping that we just fall into the 8, I want to see us pushing the best teams in the competition to the limit.
Many don't want to hear it but after this year we have 6 30+yr olds the likes of Cousins, Brown, Bowden, Johnson, Simmonds and Richardson all getting close to the end. A few won't be there in 2011 and those that are will be well past their best.
The key forward/ruck stocks are still very uncertain.
We have got some pain ahead even if we make the 8 this year unless some of these talented kids step up very quickly.
TW has had 5 years yes but he has completely striped the list in that time and started again with youth. Other coaches have come into clubs and had players of quality to work with from the start but our cupboard was almost bare. How many other coaches have had to do the cleanout TW needed to? If you even look at the best of the players that he has kept only one of them is irreplacable (Richo) and the rest will be struggling to make the 22 this year.
You can not look over the last 4 years and legitimately say that he should have taken the team to finals and a flag. He was rebuilding, the team was full of football infants and average strugglers.
The only year you can legitimately even start to measure TW as a coach is possible this year when he finally has a side to coach. You can only do so much with a developing list but now his list is starting to come of age so accountability is finally hear.
Everyone agrees that 2009 is finals or bust for TW but I only hope that if we do miss out it is not due to injuries or the like because this would not be a fair indicator. If on the other hand TW coaches poorly, makes bad onfield moves and matchups and loses the faith of the squad then he should be moved on but if we do make the finals then try something new - start to actually give credit where credit is due and get off his back! :pray
Stripes
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In my opinion TW is trying to build a team that will win us a premiership not finish 6th to 8th every year.
This takes time.
Remember the basketcase we were at the end of 2004 when we lost the last 14 games of the year.He took over a very very ordinary list.
He has been abit unlucky too.We could of snuck into the 8 in 2005 had it not been for nathan brown breaking his leg.How close last year...how we lost the st kilda game and drew with the bulldogs is beyond me.....And those teams finished 3rd & 4th.
We have a tough start to the year.Could be 0-3. It may take time for cuz & cogs to gel with the team.However I predict a massive winning streak midway through the year.Tigers will finish top 4
Terry will be there in 2010 and beyond
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TW has had 5 years yes but he has completely striped the list in that time and started again with youth. Other coaches have come into clubs and had players of quality to work with from the start but our cupboard was almost bare. How many other coaches have had to do the cleanout TW needed to? If you even look at the best of the players that he has kept only one of them is irreplacable (Richo) and the rest will be struggling to make the 22 this year.
Striper.
Let me start by saying I hope Wallace goes on to be a raging success. I would honestly love him to keep his job this year and for the next 5.
BUT..
At some point the proof has to be in the pudding and that is 2009, the end of Terry's very generous 5 year contract.
You talk of rebuilding.
For starters, what was Mark Graham in year 1? Promises of finals for senior players?
What was Kent Kingsley? Patrick Bowden? Julian McMahon? Even Ben Cousins? What was only 3 draft picks in 2005?
I really wanted Terry to rebuild but he's also brought his share of stopgap measures to the club as well, a few who've now moved on.
I truly believe he overestimated his abilities and the list in the first two years and only made truly tough decisions after the disastrous early rounds of 2007.
You talk of injuries possibly curbing 2009.
In 2008 we really did have a blessed run with the injury gods. In reality probably the best we have had since Terrence took over as coach, yet still with virtually all hands on deck the best we could manage was still only 9th and we beat top 8 sides 1.5 out of 11 times up or some such nonsense. Yes the team we beat in round 20 was the eventual premiers but how much can you really read into that when a team is well entrenched in the finals?
The only year you can judge him is this year because this is the first year he has a team? :scream :scream
You have got to be kidding me. His first 4 years indicate that he is an average game day coach who's poor at building lists and I for one do not believe that others could not have done better. We have been mediocre to poor over that period, pure and simple and Terry is as much a part of that as anyone.
I am extremely happy that Gary March has called a spade a spade and kept Wallace away from recruiting and criticised our performances as a team to date. They simply have not been good enough and if they don't improve substantially this year Terry can go back to the media where he is so comfortable.
The proof is in the pudding. No more excuses.
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TW has had 5 years yes but he has completely striped the list in that time and started again with youth. Other coaches have come into clubs and had players of quality to work with from the start but our cupboard was almost bare. How many other coaches have had to do the cleanout TW needed to? If you even look at the best of the players that he has kept only one of them is irreplacable (Richo) and the rest will be struggling to make the 22 this year.
Striper.
Let me start by saying I hope Wallace goes on to be a raging success. I would honestly love him to keep his job this year and for the next 5.
BUT..
At some point the proof has to be in the pudding and that is 2009, the end of Terry's very generous 5 year contract.
You talk of rebuilding.
For starters, what was Mark Graham in year 1? Promises of finals for senior players?
What was Kent Kingsley? Patrick Bowden? Julian McMahon? Even Ben Cousins? What was only 3 draft picks in 2005?
I really wanted Terry to rebuild but he's also brought his share of stopgap measures to the club as well, a few who've now moved on.
I truly believe he overestimated his abilities and the list in the first two years and only made truly tough decisions after the disastrous early rounds of 2007.
You talk of injuries possibly curbing 2009.
In 2008 we really did have a blessed run with the injury gods. In reality probably the best we have had since Terrence took over as coach, yet still with virtually all hands on deck the best we could manage was still only 9th and we beat top 8 sides 1.5 out of 11 times up or some such nonsense. Yes the team we beat in round 20 was the eventual premiers but how much can you really read into that when a team is well entrenched in the finals?
The only year you can judge him is this year because this is the first year he has a team? :scream :scream
You have got to be kidding me. His first 4 years indicate that he is an average game day coach who's poor at building lists and I for one do not believe that others could not have done better. We have been mediocre to poor over that period, pure and simple and Terry is as much a part of that as anyone.
I am extremely happy that Gary March has called a spade a spade and kept Wallace away from recruiting and criticised our performances as a team to date. They simply have not been good enough and if they don't improve substantially this year Terry can go back to the media where he is so comfortable.
The proof is in the pudding. No more excuses.
Fantastic post.
100% correct
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Mr Magic - I completely agree with you regarding our 2009 performance and TW contract. I think everyone on this forum does.
What I don't agree is with the whole Graham, Kingsley, etc argument. You need experience to lead young players and we had none. Graham recruitment was a success - he was brought in for one year to help educate the young backmen and support our structure. Kingsley was a punt, the upside was huge if he played well and we got him for nothing (a bit like Cousins btw :-\) but injuries stopped his progress. Regardless he was helped our young developing forwards when they played at Coburg. Patty Bowden was good as a roving backman but when Polak was brought in his age and attitude was his downfall.
So in regards to our recruitment I think you are way off the mark. If we were not rebuilding then why have we got so may players on our list who are 23 or under? And going one step further, why have we given so many of our under 23 players so much game time more than almost every other club?
One of TW greatest strengths is his game day coaching. He is very adaptable, innovative and motivating but once again you need to have the cattle to execute some strategies and to truly compete with the stronger sides. When every other team struggled, we beat Hawthorn last year because TW figured out how to break through the zone. When Adelaide was executing a mass flood that made them one of the best teams a couple of years back TW figured out a game plan to beat it. Tucky and Foley both owe their careers to TW. After over a decade of frustration and a multitude of coaches it was TW who moved Richo to the win and reinvigorated his career and gave our young forwards a chance to develop.
TW is a good coach. I just hope he can prove it in 2009.
Stripes
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Stripes ....I agree with you 100%
TW also had the courage to pull the pin on the careers of Gasper & Andrew Kellaway.I remember there being an out cry at the time but look at our back line now.
2007 .....the year we had to have.Note our percentage that year for 3 1/2 wins was 77%.Compare to West Coast last year..4 wins 66%
There is so much upside to Richmond in 2009.If Cousins and Cogs get back to their best ..TW would of created a super team that no one saw comming.
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Stripes ....I agree with you 100%
TW also had the courage to pull the pin on the careers of Gasper & Andrew Kellaway.I remember there being an out cry at the time but look at our back line now.
Great point and one some,no,many forget.
Gaspar in particular was a selfish sob that held our club to ransom and set a stuffen disgraceful example both on the field and even when he left by refusing to play magoos.
To think a percentage of our supporters base actually were blind to his self centered ways is frightening.
Kelleway was just hopeless and in the modern game was the second of two wacko brothers.
HTF did he last ???
Well done Terry :thumbsup
You get another year for having the balls to do what that suckars coach we had didn't.
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Mr Magic - I completely agree with you regarding our 2009 performance and TW contract. I think everyone on this forum does.
TW is a good coach. I just hope he can prove it in 2009.
Some salient points striper. I am not blind, Terry has made some inroads but for every good example you have put up I can think of games where he has been soundly out coached and made some baffling positional match ups but it's fruitless posting them all here.
However all the spin both for and against aside as you say we fundamentally agree.
This is Wallace's year, it's now or never and I certainly hope that you are indeed correct in your appraisal because I am far more interested in the success of the RFC than anything else. 8)
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Its scary to think that if Gasper and Kellaway had played in 2007 we might of won a couple more games and missed out on getting Cotch.
This is just proof that sometimes you need to take a step backwards in order to go forward.
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Mr Magic - I completely agree with you regarding our 2009 performance and TW contract. I think everyone on this forum does.
TW is a good coach. I just hope he can prove it in 2009.
Some salient points striper. I am not blind, Terry has made some inroads but for every good example you have put up I can think of games where he has been soundly out coached and made some baffling positional match ups but it's fruitless posting them all here.
However all the spin both for and against aside as you say we fundamentally agree.
This is Wallace's year, it's now or never and I certainly hope that you are indeed correct in your appraisal because I am far more interested in the success of the RFC than anything else. 8)
In 2004 the list was a shambles. The club gave Wallace 5 years to fix the list with the view to having a side that could be built into consistent finals performer. I cannot remember any suggestion in 2004 that there was a condition of Wallace's contract that he must play finals in those 5years rather the key performance indicators would be the development of the players individually and as a group.
I am a little surprised at the emphasis/concentration on the "must play finals in 2009 to get a contract extension" line. What the Board should be considering first and foremost is whether Wallace has the skills to complete the development of the squad into a consistent finals performer. If he doesn't have the skills then this is his last year regardless of ladder position. If we do consider he has the skills then the question is - is he the best available to further develop the squad from other available options? Only if he is the very best option then we give him another contract and we then base the performance reviews on ladder positions
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Mr Magic - I completely agree with you regarding our 2009 performance and TW contract. I think everyone on this forum does.
What I don't agree is with the whole Graham, Kingsley, etc argument. You need experience to lead young players and we had none. Graham recruitment was a success - he was brought in for one year to help educate the young backmen and support our structure. Kingsley was a punt, the upside was huge if he played well and we got him for nothing (a bit like Cousins btw :-\) but injuries stopped his progress. Regardless he was helped our young developing forwards when they played at Coburg. Patty Bowden was good as a roving backman but when Polak was brought in his age and attitude was his downfall.
So in regards to our recruitment I think you are way off the mark. If we were not rebuilding then why have we got so may players on our list who are 23 or under? And going one step further, why have we given so many of our under 23 players so much game time more than almost every other club?
One of TW greatest strengths is his game day coaching. He is very adaptable, innovative and motivating but once again you need to have the cattle to execute some strategies and to truly compete with the stronger sides. When every other team struggled, we beat Hawthorn last year because TW figured out how to break through the zone. When Adelaide was executing a mass flood that made them one of the best teams a couple of years back TW figured out a game plan to beat it. Tucky and Foley both owe their careers to TW. After over a decade of frustration and a multitude of coaches it was TW who moved Richo to the win and reinvigorated his career and gave our young forwards a chance to develop.
TW is a good coach. I just hope he can prove it in 2009.
Stripes
How can you defend duds like Graham, Bowden and kingsley.
What YOU fail to understand is that Kingsley was punted on because TW misread our list.
i really believe he thought the list was better than it was and thought he would get us into the finasls.
Believe what u want but i think its best we lock this thread till round 22 but then again you will prob seak a 3 year ext even if we dont make the finals.
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At the risk of being shot down here daniel, if it was up to me and list does continue to improve yet we don't make the finals I would give TW another contract. :outtahere
I think he has rebuilt our list and deserves to have a real crack over the next couple of years proving that. If we get another coach now they will be just reaping the rewards of TW hard work.
If the players don't perform at 23+ then TW has failed and should be removed but the list is only just now starting to get the majority of our players close to that premiership age so I still don't think 2009 is a proper judgement.
The only reason the whole 2009 and finals or bust senerio has come about is because it is Tw last year on his current contract otherwise we wouldn't be applying the same pressure.
Ok, fire away....
Stripes
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At the risk of being shot down here daniel, if it was up to me and list does continue to improve yet we don't make the finals I would give TW another contract. :outtahere
Wallace thank goodness is now being kept well away from 'building our list'. :rollin
I am excited about a few of our kids coming through but I do not credit Terry for much of that.
Deledio - The result of which was a wooden spoon(Frawley 2004).
Cotchin - The same(Wallace 2007)
Moore, Tuck, Foley, McGuane, White & Thursfield have all progressed/developed well and that's a positive but I still think there are a heap of young players with question marks over how they have progressed under Wallace's eye.
Those being Tambling, Polo, Meyer, Schulz, Hughes, Rodan, Pattison, JoN, Casserly, Edwards, Connors, Raines all who are struggling still at various levels, unproven or gone.
We still have 6 players over 30 who are still integral to our team as witnessed by 5 of them finishing in our top ten in the B&F count last year. Who will step up when they go in the near future?
I'll admit I am impressed with how Wallace has redeveloped our defence by moving on the likes of Kellaway, Chaffey & Gaspar and bringing in McGuane, Moore & Thursfield. That seems to be working well although we still haven't unearthed a reliable small defender.
I am not so impressed with how the rebuild of our forward line is progressing, nor our ruck division. Although at least Cameron has looked to finally rectify Wallace's fixation with small running players by bringing on Vickery and Post last year. These guys will take time.
Wallace barely gets a pass mark with what little he has achieved over the past 4 years.
I think most people could have 'rebuilt the list' at least as well, it's not all that impressive at all IMO.
I am still nowhere near as confident as some that our future is in great shape because of what Terry Wallace has brought to Tigerland.
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Mr Magic and Stripes I love reading both of your posts. :thumbsup
Excellent arguments by both and obviously both very learned football viewpoints when it comes to the Tiges but I agree with MM when it comes to defending the likes of recruiting Graham??? We could have plyed another kid there possibly Thursfield from the start of the year rather than blooding him in rd 14 against the Swans.
Bowden Kingsley?? Again a stopgap measure to fill a hole in the dam wall that was ready to burst as it did in 2007.
Terry is on his last chance. He knows it and it is football's worst kept secret. No finals in 2009 means no job in 2010 and the fruits of his "labours" in his first 3 seasons at the club will come home to roost should we finish below 8th come round 22.
In my opinion he has had his chance and it will be time to move on. If it is the good fortune of an incumbent coach beyond 2009 to profit from our rebuild post 2007 then so be it. I want to see the the Tigers successful and I don't care who is coach. It's not personal against Terry or anybody else. Success for RFC is what I want to experience. :pray
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I always think of the journey Mark Thompson took as mimicing TW coaching voyage through no accident of course. I'm sure everyone is well versed on the history of the rebuilding Geelong took during the 7 years Thompson had and how close he came to being sacked over the journey but most notably the year before they won the flag. Now why I'm under no illusions that we will win the GF within the next 2 years, the rebirth process of the club has definite parrallels because, of course, TW used the Geelong process as a model to first claim the Tiger coaching position and then attempt to reform the list.
No to say that TW is being 'kept away from building our list' would be a bit of a stretch and even a tad niave IMHO. TW did not have as big of a say, I'll grant you, during last draft but all senior coaches have a big imput into recruitment. Whatever happens from this point on TW has been intricial to the development of the list and will take some of the glory and all of the blame depending on the outcome.
Sorry I'm going to have to cut my argument off a bit short. I'll finish it off later this evening.
Regardless TW should not be evaluated on teams win/loss ratio over the last 4 years givn the state of the list. What he should be marked on is this year and beyond when the first group he recruited are now 'at age' otherwise you are just marking the deficencies of our past coaches and recruitment.
Stripes
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Mr Majic, congratulations on your last couple of posts and i agree 1000% with you.
As for you Stripes, maybe it's you that is a "tad niave!" Your really poor excuses for his drafting of the players mentioned are not only ridiculous but totally lame! I respect your passion for what TW has done but to try and justify some of his drafting is completely (imo) not on!
As for your comment on the evaluation of TW i totally disagree again, he has the worst win/loss ratio (39%) over the last 4 years than any current AFL coach. (not including Dean Bailey, but i think we should give him a little more time to judge him) I know you said stuff about lists and age groups but please TRY and take off those rose coloured glasses just for a minute and see "If it looks like a pig, sounds like a pig, acts like pig, don’t be mistaking, it is a pig!."
Terry Wallace -oink oink!!
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Hey Big Tone,
Is TW totally responsible for his win loss ratio in the last four years. Does he get any leniency due to the past recruiters/coaches who were responsible for our drafting between 98-03 and hence the list in the years after.
If the tiges make the finals this year will your opinion of TW change or is he still a pig in your rose coloured vision.
However I am glad you can give some slack to Dean Bailey who has inherited a dud list. That is one dude I feel sorry for.
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You're right. TW should have made the finals every year over his coaching tenure. He should have found the best players out there, traded for them with our draft picks, instilled the 'Tigers Spirit of Old' in the list and instill fear back into the opposition clubs immediately! This is what wins premierships doesn't it! Well it did in the glory days didn't it?! :o
If we want to make the same mistakes we have for the last 27 years, demanding immediate success and not allowing our club to finally form a list that could have a real crack at not only the finals but the flag - then we should be demanding TW head immediately! :P Patience, forget patience we want success now and we want a coach who can wave a magic wand give us the list of fantastic players we need, all of the right age, claiming the flag for the tiger faithful before flying back to wonderland.... ::)
Now back to reality. Premierships are difficult to acquire and getting more and more difficult as the years progress. You can not buy and flag any longer, nor can you expect to obtain one without a hell of a lot of hard work and a sh.ite load of luck. Love him or hate him TW has at least done (or been allowed to do by the administration) what no other Richmond coach has done in 27 years - he has rebuilt the list. This is undeniable, as is his devotion to this goal. The proof is in the turnover of the list in his tenure as in the games he has given the dveloping players.
The argument can be made that he should have gone completely down the rebuilding path - only recruiting youth and never trading in any senior players which may be true but IMO who would educate and protect the developing players?
I want to see success as much as any of you but I do not hold with getting rid of a coach after he is main the reason we find ourselves finally in the place where we can challenge in the future.
I hope we have a great season and TW gets his contract extended so this argument can be put to bed...at least for another year or so :pray
Regardless I am not going to change many peoples minds here no more than you can change mine but I appreciate the intelligent arguments no the less.
Thanks
Stripes
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Hi Chuck,
To answer your first question, i don't totally think TW is responsible for his win/loss ratio but after FOUR years he has to take responsibillty for a lot of it. He is the senior coach of our club and has ample time to change things imho. Even our own president only gave him a 5 for his assesment of last year. It has to be finals this year or not good enough for mine. What do you think? Is 5 years and no finals appearances good enough to get him another contract?
On Dean Bailey, and i feel sorry for him too because i think he has a worst list than TW had when he took over but i still think after 5 years if he does not have the Dees playing finals he has failed too. Good luck to him though
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Hey Stripes,
It seems to me that the only reason you seem to want to keep TW is because he has turned over our list and recruited some young players, but i hate to break it to you but this is how the draft works- you recruit young kids and turn over players that are not up to it. Not rocket sience!
Getting games into kids is just what happens when you draft them and play them.
Not a real good reason to keep a coach even if we have had a bad 27 years prior.
And when you decide to go with a youth policy, you go with a youth policy, not sway from it when you feel like it. Again he has made some mistakes. He has tried it to many times for me not to bring it up again.
Anyway Stripes if you do have one of those magic wands please give it one almighty wave and lets all enjoy the year to come!
Go Tiges!!
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What I love about the team at the moment is that there are atleast a dozen players in the 21-24 age group all comming through togeather.These guys are all in our best 22.Plus we have the best 18yo in the country.
TW has done a geat job fixing the midfield and the backline......and the seeds have been planted in the forward line.
Can anyone remember the last time we have had the depth and competion for places.(well on paper anyway).
I cant,then again I have only been barracking for the last 29 years.
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You're right. TW should have made the finals every year over his coaching tenure. He should have found the best players out there, traded for them with our draft picks, instilled the 'Tigers Spirit of Old' in the list and instill fear back into the opposition clubs immediately! This is what wins premierships doesn't it! Well it did in the glory days didn't it?! :o
I am not saying that and I don't see many who are. That's your impression.
I for one did not expect finals in year 1 and 2 and could quite happily have worn the pain a wooden spoon or even two had Wallace made truly tough decisions on our playing list. Sadly of course he didn't and he only pruned the edges of the obvious duds.
Bravo Terry, anyone could have made those decisions, pity you didn't cut a whole heap deeper and make some truly hard calls.
Again 3 draft picks in 2005. Hello!
No doubt in mine and many folks minds that Wallace overachieved in the first two years and had a distorted view of the list. This was indicated by continuing to play footballers who had let other coaches down before him previously thinking he could turn them into something that they weren't.
Terry's ego believed that he could play finals with the core of the playing list whilst rebuilding.
Essentially he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
All the rhetoric out of the club at the time was that it was felt that senior players 'deserved' to somehow play in finals and that we had to remain competitive. Unfortunately we just wallowed in mediocrity in '05/'06 until the poo finally hit the fan in 2007 and Terry finally woke up to himself that he had to call time on some old Tiger stalwarts.
Hindsight ;) indicates this had to happen much earlier. Big deal if we came last, we'd have picked up the number one draft picks as consolation. Wallace erred. Going for Kent Kingsley on the verge of 2007 had me tearing my hair out. If ever there was a shortsighted decision it was that one. It highlighted to me where Wallace thought we were at. We were soon to find out how badly he'd misjudged it.
Still in 2007, after a disastrous start again saw finals out of the question, at least Wallace did finally wake up to himself & make the tough calls. Fortunately enough it meant we were able to pick up young gun Cotchin.
Better late than never I guess but a shame we wasted two years. Lucky for Terry though he was given 5 years and not 3 to 'rebuild'.
I always think of the journey Mark Thompson took as mimicing TW coaching voyage through no accident of course. I'm sure everyone is well versed on the history of the rebuilding Geelong took during the 7 years Thompson had and how close he came to being sacked over the journey but most notably the year before they won the flag. Now why I'm under no illusions that we will win the GF within the next 2 years, the rebirth process of the club has definite parrallels because, of course, TW used the Geelong process as a model to first claim the Tiger coaching position and then attempt to reform the list.
I hate the Geelong comparison with our situation. Hate it. Our rebuild has followed Geelong's how exactly?
For starters Thompson made the finals in his first couple of years and has never won a wooden spoon.
These are bald facts although I am sure someone will try to spin it up as I have seen previously in this thread.
Thompson has built a side of big, strong bodies and angled towards a younger demographic.
Our team is based largely of unproven young, lightweight speeders with a core of rapidly aging champs who are still integral to our performances. It's getting better the last couple of seasons I'll admit but it's been a bumpy road. I am still unconvinced our kips can step up to fill the breach in a couple of key areas.
No to say that TW is being 'kept away from building our list' would be a bit of a stretch and even a tad niave IMHO. TW did not have as big of a say, I'll grant you, during last draft but all senior coaches have a big imput into recruitment. Whatever happens from this point on TW has been intricial to the development of the list and will take some of the glory and all of the blame depending on the outcome.
Tad naive huh?
No doubt in my mind that Wallace's input in the list building processes has been significantly reduced upon Miller's departure. Bear in mind Wallace has a history of having little input in recruiting, it's the recycled players he has brought to the club where he has had more of an impact.
M Graham, P Bowden, Kingsley & finally McMahon for 19 was the straw that broke the camels back for Terry's power plays and where he probably still a part of the process, his influence will have been greatly reduced in the current setup.
Finally we now have someone who's there to make Wallace accountable for the decisions that are made by the club regarding recycled players we select.
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When Wallace took over from Joyce at the Bulldogs ,he inherited an excellent list.
A list which should of played in a grand final,or at least won one,as far as lm concerned he under achieved.
He left the Bulldogs list in a mess which took a few years to get over.
I think it was stripes who said Terry was adaptable and innovative.(your kidding)
Terrys game plan does not work with the list we have,yet he still persists with it.
I would not call that being adaptable.
As for being innovative ,he has done a couple of things in 4 years .
The chipping around the back line farce did win us the crows game,but also created bad habits which has cost us quite a few matches.
The game plan we play is quite predictable,because it has hardly changed in 4 years.
Personally l think we need a coach who understands the list we have,and who can plan a game plan to suit the structure.
Not someone who expects a young team to play like veterans.
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Hey Stripes, it will be very interesting to hear all these opinions in September after we win a final or 2. For me, I think Wallace has done a very good job in very trying circumstances. He has made mistakes but so do premiership coaches, all coaches, and in the whole I think he has shown a lot of courage to stick with a plan at a club that has a perception of sacking coaches for failing to gain immediate success. He will live or die by the team's performance this year and personally I think you all need to get used to him coaching for another couple of years.
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It's also interesting to read this thread against the 2009 Crystal Ball thread. Of the 16 posts so far, only 1 has us not making the 8. That would mean in 5 years we have almost completely turned over our list and taken this new list to the finals. If the predictions come true it will be pretty hard to argue with that simple fact.
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Terrys game plan does not work with the list we have,yet he still persists with it.
I would not call that being adaptable.
As for being innovative ,he has done a couple of things in 4 years .
The chipping around the back line farce did win us the crows game,but also created bad habits which has cost us quite a few matches.
The game plan we play is quite predictable,because it has hardly changed in 4 years.
Personally l think we need a coach who understands the list we have,and who can plan a game plan to suit the structure.
Not someone who expects a young team to play like veterans.
How can you fault our performance in the second half of 2008, our list is developing well and playing exciting fast football. You are only as good as your last performance and at the moment we are doing well. Of course if that doesnt continue in 2009 then there are issues that will need to be addressed.
You dont want to see our 2008 game plan carried into 2009, I think you are the one who doesnt understand our list. We are not going to beat big bodied sides, Swans, Norths, Adelaide until our youngsters are allowed to develop and mature in body.
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What do you think? Is 5 years and no finals appearances good enough to get him another contract?
Defintely not, finals is a must for 2009, as Stripes has said just about everyone agrees with that.
With the rebuild and allowances he has had with his first five years I also want to see finals in 2010 and 2011.
The issue I have is that the first real test for TW is in 2009 and until that year is done we cant judge him on the first three years. Until the pudding is cooked there is no proof in it.
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I would just like to point out that when joyce was coach of the bulldogs......they lost the first two games of the 96 season by a combined 220 points.From memory they sacked Joyce midyear and won only 5 1/2 games for the year.They finished only above fitzroy(one win)
After being rolled by freo in the opening round of 1997 TWs bulldogs were on top of the ladder after round 14 and went within a bees d##k of making the GF.In 1998 the bulldogs were in the top 2 of the ladder the whole year.Played their worst game of the year when it mattered most.They finished 4th at the end of the home & away season in 99.Only team to beat Essendon in 2000.
Was he suppose to take a list that lost the last 14 games of the year in 2004 and have us 3 times defending premiers by now ?
I would lke to see him finish what he started
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Until the pudding is cooked there is no proof in it.
I like that one Chuck. Is there a licence on it or is it freeware? ;D
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I like that one Chuck. Is there a licence on it or is it freeware? ;D
LOL, no haven't trademarked it yet Smokey
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I am a little surprised at the emphasis/concentration on the "must play finals in 2009 to get a contract extension" line. What the Board should be considering first and foremost is whether Wallace has the skills to complete the development of the squad into a consistent finals performer. If he doesn't have the skills then this is his last year regardless of ladder position. If we do consider he has the skills then the question is - is he the best available to further develop the squad from other available options? Only if he is the very best option then we give him another contract and we then base the performance reviews on ladder positions
While I think there's no excuse for missing the finals this year barring a mass list of injuries to our best players, I agree with you Gracie. There are far more important variables to what decides whether Wallace is the best coach to take us forward than just ladder position. As I just said what happens if like the doggies in 2007 we have 4 key mids go down with ACLs and we just miss the finals - does Wallace go? On ladder position then the answer is yes. What happens if we repeat 2008 yet Jack or Kel kick that one goal against the Saints which sneaks us into 8th spot despite another poor record against the top 8 sides - does Wallace go? On ladder position the answer is no. The judgement should be on the state of the list at the end of this season, its further scope for further improvement and development, its ability to match the top sides, and whether the Club believes Wallace is the man to take the team post 2009 consistently into finals and eventually to a flag. We know all too well ladder positions can be fool's gold.
The emphasis on "must play finals in 2009" comes from March and Board publicly making it the emphasis and making it 'the' criteria on which Wallace will be judged at least in the media and public's eyes. He even said which round a judgement will be made - rounds 14-15 :-\. A big boo-boo on March's part when that sort of thing should be kept inside the boardroom and footy dept. As long as Wallace and the footy dept know what the expectations are from the Board then that is all who needs to know. How can you state when you will make a decision on the coach's future 6 months prior to the start of the season ???. Poor and naive PR from the Prez who caved into pushy media questioning at the time.
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Amazing what happens when you don't get onto the Internet for a couple of days...
Great post MT and Gracie.
Unfortunately we just wallowed in mediocrity in '05/'06 until the poo finally hit the fan in 2007 and Terry finally woke up to himself that he had to call time on some old Tiger stalwarts.
Hindsight ;) indicates this had to happen much earlier. Big deal if we came last, we'd have picked up the number one draft picks as consolation. Wallace erred. Going for Kent Kingsley on the verge of 2007 had me tearing my hair out. If ever there was a shortsighted decision it was that one. It highlighted to me where Wallace thought we were at. We were soon to find out how badly he'd misjudged it.
Lucky for Terry though he was given 5 years and not 3 to 'rebuild'.
If TW waited to start the rebuilding process in 2007 why do we have so many players on the list from the 2004 - 2006 drafts? Players such as Lids, Bling, Polo, Pattison, White, Thursfield, Hughes, McGuane, Graham, JON, Collins, Edwards, Riewoldt plus others such as Foley, Moore and Raines who were given opportunities to develop they would never had had under a different coach. Include other 'young' trades such as Morton, Hislop, Thomson and we have a large percentage of our list all from the 2004-2006 period.
I hate the Geelong comparison with our situation. Hate it. Our rebuild has followed Geelong's how exactly?
For starters Thompson made the finals in his first couple of years and has never won a wooden spoon.
These are bald facts although I am sure someone will try to spin it up as I have seen previously in this thread.
Thompson has built a side of big, strong bodies and angled towards a younger demographic.
Our team is based largely of unproven young, lightweight speeders with a core of rapidly aging champs who are still integral to our performances. It's getting better the last couple of seasons I'll admit but it's been a bumpy road. I am still unconvinced our kips can step up to fill the breach in a couple of key areas.
The reason the Geelong comparisons are made is because TW has publicly stated that he used the Geelong blueprint as his rebuilding model. The model was to bring through a large group of similiar aged players that could develop together, compete with each other and create a consistently strong unit across the ground. That is why TW has been recruiting players such as Morton, Hislop and Thomson who are around the same age as Lids, Foley etc. We have a different list of different players types but love the comparison or hate it, we are following the Geelong model regardless.
Tad naive huh?
I wasn't trying to insult you here.
M Graham, P Bowden, Kingsley & finally McMahon for 19 was the straw that broke the camels back for Terry's power plays and where he probably still a part of the process, his influence will have been greatly reduced in the current setup.
Finally we now have someone who's there to make Wallace accountable for the decisions that are made by the club regarding recycled players we select.
Add players such as Cousins, Simmonds, Morton, Thomson and Hislop who were traded for draft picks just like McMahon, Knobel, Kingsley and P Bowden but because they are successful (or new) they are never mentioned as bad recruitment decisions. If we are going to make blanket statements and state that TWs recruitment and trading choices are poor then we need to look at all of them including the likes of Simmonds, Morton and Cousins which I believe are well heralded and very successful.
TW has done exactly what he was hired for. Every team shores up there list with trades, even those who are rebuilding. TW has used most of our recruitment choices to get young players into the team and rebuild.
I just hope our young list is as successful as a know it will be and TW is around for a long time to enjoy his hard work and good coaching :whistle
Stripes
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who were given opportunities to develop they would never had had under a different coach.
'Never have had'? That's a pretty big assumption there striper.
Seems like Clarkson & Eade have been giving their kids plenty of opportunities. :rollin
A few aside, our youngsters played a sprinkling of games in 2005/2006 seasons as Terry preferred to play it safe.
I still vouch in those first two seasons particularly, Wallace gave many of the Richmond stalwarts who'd been previous serial failures, too long to make something happen that was never going to. He barely made a tough decision at the selection table in those first two years despite the fact many supporters were screaming for more youth to be injected into the fray. Yes we remained 'competitive' but we were treading water without any chance of threatening teams of genuine quality because we 'owed the senior players finals'. We ended up nowhere 'with a bullet'.
However by the end of 2005 Terry thought it was all coming together hence only 3 draft picks and the addition of Kent Kingsley. We all saw the end result as the year fell completely apart and we won our 2nd spoon in 4 years. Wallace clearly misjudged the abilities of many on the the list by a long way and he only truly embraced a youth policy when things when very pear shaped in the early games of 2007. To his credit though (McMahon trade aside) he's showed indications since then of turning it around. As I said better late than never but he's fortunate he had 5 years.
The reason the Geelong comparisons are made is because TW has publicly stated that he used the Geelong blueprint as his rebuilding model. The model was to bring through a large group of similiar aged players that could develop together, compete with each other and create a consistently strong unit across the ground. That is why TW has been recruiting players such as Morton, Hislop and Thomson who are around the same age as Lids, Foley etc. We have a different list of different players types but love the comparison or hate it, we are following the Geelong model regardless.
Most clubs in the competition are following a youth policy. It's hardly revolutionary or the 'Geelong Model'. ::)
Add players such as Cousins, Simmonds, Morton, Thomson and Hislop who were traded for draft picks (snip) but because they are successful (or new)
of those names only Simmonds & Morton(promising so far) could be considered a success currently.
I just hope our young list is as successful as a know it will be and TW is around for a long time to enjoy his hard work and good coaching :whistle
I hope your absolute certainty comes to some sort of fruition sooner rather than later because it's going to be a tumultuous year at Richmond otherwise. I am excited by a few of our kids for sure but I am far from convinced Wallace is the best coach we can attract to take them to the next level. Fortunately Gary March thinks the same way.
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While I think there's no excuse for missing the finals this year barring a mass list of injuries to our best players, I agree with you Gracie. There are far more important variables to what decides whether Wallace is the best coach to take us forward than just ladder position. As I just said what happens if like the doggies in 2007 we have 4 key mids go down with ACLs and we just miss the finals - does Wallace go? On ladder position then the answer is yes. What happens if we repeat 2008 yet Jack or Kel kick that one goal against the Saints which sneaks us into 8th spot despite another poor record against the top 8 sides - does Wallace go? On ladder position the answer is no. The judgement should be on the state of the list at the end of this season, its further scope for further improvement and development, its ability to match the top sides, and whether the Club believes Wallace is the man to take the team post 2009 consistently into finals and eventually to a flag. We know all too well ladder positions can be fool's gold.
The emphasis on "must play finals in 2009" comes from March and Board publicly making it the emphasis and making it 'the' criteria on which Wallace will be judged at least in the media and public's eyes. He even said which round a judgement will be made - rounds 14-15 :-\. A big boo-boo on March's part when that sort of thing should be kept inside the boardroom and footy dept. As long as Wallace and the footy dept know what the expectations are from the Board then that is all who needs to know. How can you state when you will make a decision on the coach's future 6 months prior to the start of the season ???. Poor and naive PR from the Prez who caved into pushy media questioning at the time.
Finals is the benchmark this season because 5 years is long enough to build a team that wins more games than it loses despite hurdles it may face.
Good sides cover injuries and still make the 8 because they have the depth account for them. They may not win the premiership but they still should finish above ninth.
As I said in a previous post, we had an absolute dream run with injury in '08 and yet still we only beat 1 top 8 side in 11 outings and finished ninth again.
The reason the injury excuses by Wallace supporters are coming out already is that one feels it won't take much for it to go wobbly if we lose a key player or two.
Compounding the problem is that we have a core of 30+ year olds that are still crucial to our success or failure.
Ultimately a finals birth is the only benchmark that matters when all is taken into account in '09 and I for one am firmly on the President's side with his statements as such. Gary March will not tolerate mediocrity.
Terry can't keep making promises and excuses forever, he needs this team he coaches to bear some fruit after a long drought.
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However by the end of 2005 Terry thought it was all coming together hence only 3 draft picks and the addition of Kent Kingsley.
Do you mean the end of 2006?
If so, there were 5 ND picks + Kent Kingsley in the PSD = 6 draft picks.
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Add players such as Cousins, Simmonds, Morton, Thomson and Hislop who were traded for draft picks.......
Cousins and Simmonds weren't traded for draft picks. ;) (Edit: nor was Hislop)
Cousins was actually drafted.
Simmonds = masterstroke of recruiting. No draft pick involved. In reality, a straight swap for Fiora.
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However by the end of 2005 Terry thought it was all coming together hence only 3 draft picks and the addition of Kent Kingsley.
Do you mean the end of 2006?
If so, there were 5 ND picks + Kent Kingsley in the PSD = 6 draft picks.
My bad, I meant by the end of season 2006, Wallace thought it was all coming together.
3 draft picks in 2005 was a disgrace as was picking up Kingsley at the end of 2006.
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A few aside, our youngsters played a sprinkling of games in 2005/2006 seasons as Terry preferred to play it safe.
I still vouch in those first two seasons particularly, Wallace gave many of the Richmond stalwarts who'd been previous serial failures, too long to make something happen that was never going to. He barely made a tough decision at the selection table in those first two years despite the fact many supporters were screaming for more youth to be injected into the fray.
A sure way to have a promising young star lose his confidence, get injuried and develop bad habits is by throwing him in unprotected with too much responsibility from the getgo. A rare few thrive when made to 'sink or swim' but by and large you lose more young players this was than make them. Getting rid of the volume of players you suggested in 05/06 and throwing in a team of 18 year old boys would have be disasterous for our future as a club not to mention impractical. Most of them were no-where near ready to stip up to that level and I would go so far as to argue that Tambling came into the side too early through necessity which has detrimentally effected his development. If we did this on mass with a players who were physically and mentally unready it would have been negative for their personal growth, the team culture and the morale of the club in general.
You play kids when they are ready not a second earlier which is what Geelong did with Ablett and co... :rollin
Most clubs in the competition are following a youth policy. It's hardly revolutionary or the 'Geelong Model'. ::)
Ah you missed the difference Magicman. Other clubs are rebuilding by bringing in a small group of young players every year whereas TW is attempting to build up a large group of similiar aged players all at once. This is why Morton, Thomson and Hislop were recruited. That is the 'Geelong Model' :cheers
I hope your absolute certainty comes to some sort of fruition sooner rather than later because it's going to be a tumultuous year at Richmond otherwise. I am excited by a few of our kids for sure but I am far from convinced Wallace is the best coach we can attract to take them to the next level. Fortunately Gary March thinks the same way.
You know what MM, I am confident that we will have a good year and that TW will have his contract extended and I am content to remain positive and not look for negatives to bring me down. When all evidence suggests that we have every chance of a successful year then I'm happy to jump on board and enjoy the ride regardless.
In terms of a better coach out there, I am struggling to think of an experienced coach capable of anything let alone with the ability to take the Tigers to a flag. March may need to watch his own position if he keeps speaking out of school and sharing in-house goals/plans with the media. Regardless of his strengths, March is only adding fuel to the fire and setting us all up for a fall with the type of statements he has made recently.
TW has stuck by his plan, put in the hard yards, I think he deserves a chance to see it come to fruition regardless.
Stripes
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We're not really getting anywhere with this Stripes. My opinion on Terry's first three years will not waver.
As I have said he's improved things slightly from that point on but my stance remains sceptical, despite our improved & unexpected 9th place finish last season for the reasons outlined in this thread.
TW has stuck by his plan, put in the hard yards, I think he deserves a chance to see it come to fruition regardless.
He has been given the chance. :rollin
Wallace has been given every opportunity to see out his 5 year blueprint and if it's on track then everything should look after itself.
However if the plans falls short and a finals birth eludes us again in 2009, he will rightly be replaced and someone else will get the opportunity with the young group to take them to the next level. Next time without the luxury of 5 years.
With the addition of a 31yr old Cousins and with key players Richo, Simmonds and Brown unlikely to get better from this year on, one feels that it's the last throw of the dice for Terry's Richmond to play finals as it won't get any easier to make the 8 in 2010.
It's a big reason why Wallace decided to take the punt on Cousins where others feared to tread. He knows it's make or break and that he has to convince the Pres and the majority of fans, that he's on the right track in order to earn another contract.
If Terry leads us where you think he will in 2009, then I'll cross over. Until then my scepticism will remain.
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However by the end of 2005 Terry thought it was all coming together hence only 3 draft picks and the addition of Kent Kingsley.
Do you mean the end of 2006?
If so, there were 5 ND picks + Kent Kingsley in the PSD = 6 draft picks.
My bad, I meant by the end of season 2006, Wallace thought it was all coming together.
3 draft picks in 2005 was a disgrace as was picking up Kingsley at the end of 2006.
Mr magic....If TW thought it was all comming together at the end of 06 ..Why on earth did he come out a say that "2011" comment at the start of 07 season ?
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Mr magic....If TW thought it was all comming together at the end of 06 ..Why on earth did he come out a say that "2011" comment at the start of 07 season ?
On the verge of the 2007 season, I think was just beginning to recognise just how badly he'd misjudged the playing groups ability.
However the mixed messages coming out of Terry's mouth at that time clearly unsettled the playing group.
On one hand he's talking about owing the senior players finals success and drafting veterans like Kent Kingsley at the end of '06 and on the other hand he's talking about '2011' at the start of '07.
It was basically a fall back if things didn't work out as planned. After the early losses in 2007 culminating in 'Gaspar-Gate' he finally bit the bullet and threw youth(McGuane) into the fray. IMO though Gaspar should have been punted before the start of the season as he was clearly not up to it. That whole situation was handled very poorly IMO and smacked of a coach making it up as went along.
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Mr magic....If TW thought it was all comming together at the end of 06 ..Why on earth did he come out a say that "2011" comment at the start of 07 season ?
On the verge of the 2007 season, I think was just beginning to recognise just how badly he'd misjudged the playing groups ability.
However the mixed messages coming out of Terry's mouth at that time clearly unsettled the playing group.
On one hand he's talking about owing the senior players finals success and drafting veterans like Kent Kingsley at the end of '06 and on the other hand he's talking about '2011' at the start of '07.
It was basically a fall back if things didn't work out as planned. After the early losses in 2007 culminating in 'Gaspar-Gate' he finally bit the bullet and threw youth(McGuane) into the fray. IMO though Gaspar should have been punted before the start of the season as he was clearly not up to it. That whole situation was handled very poorly IMO and smacked of a coach making it up as went along.
Or they didn't want to cut Gaspar too early when the replacements hadn't fully stepped up. Gaspar was put on notice and he then chose to quit. Basically Gaspar spat the dummy. At least Tivendale had the balls to play it out to the end for the benefit of the club
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Gracie, I don't think that fits with the "everything TW does is wrong" approach :P
Tiv's estimation went up plenty in my eyes after they way he carried on with his football that year. :thumbsup
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3 draft picks in 2005 was a disgrace.............
4 picks.
3 ND + 1 inspired PSD pick (Matthew White).
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3 draft picks in 2005 was a disgrace.............
4 picks.
3 ND + 1 inspired PSD pick (Matthew White).
Yes we were lucky to get Whitey in the PSD, he's the one who's worked out well from that draft but I guess that has to be balanced against the not so inspiring Patrick Bowden (dp56) who was the patch job. Shame we didn't use that selection to unearth another diamond.
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You have to be very lucky to unearth a diamond that far down. That's why clubs pass on late picks and trial players before the PSD.
As for Patrick Bowden, a matter of opinion. He was 24, the right age for the hole in our list. He played all 22 games in 2006 and averaged over 20 possessions per game.
I think he was fair punt for pick 56 rather than a patch job. Injury stuffed him in 2007.
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You have to be very lucky to unearth a diamond that far down. That's why clubs pass on late picks and trial players before the PSD.
Contradicting yourself here fish. There is still quality later in the draft. Some good players have come out of the rookie draft from that year. Interesting isn't it that White has turned out the best of the lot from the 2005 draft so far,yet he was the speculative one in the PSD. ::)
Instead of digging for another diamond at 56 we ended up with a worthless lump of coal in Paddy.
If you don't play you don't get and we simply did not have enough picks in 2005 for a side that was rebuilding.
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For those that care, Tim Watson just said he believes Wallace will be coaching Richmond next year.
For the record he also thinks Malthouse, Thompson, Williams, Laidley and Worsfold will be gone. Reckons Williams will replace Malthouse at Collingwood.
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Mark Thompson?
Some team might try to poach him, otherwise why would he go unless Geelong have a shocker of a year.
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Mark Thompson?
Some team might try to poach him, otherwise why would he go unless Geelong have a shocker of a year.
Watson reckons Geelong will have one more good year and Thomson as a career coach will resign as you can only spend so long at one club (tell that to Sheeds Timmy). This started off bomber fans saying Thompson will replace Knighter in 2011.
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Can I jump slightly OT here guys (and girls) and just say how much I have enjoyed reading this particular thread. I haven't bought in because I have my opinion and couldn't have added much more than what others were saying but the way the discussion has been conducted makes it one of the reasons I really enjoy this forum. The difference between this thread and the childish, name-calling, mud-slinging, swearing ones point out how little some posters really have to say. Thanks all. :thumbsup
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I've enjoyed the debate also smokey. MM in particular uses facts and argues the point rather than the 'man' so to speak, so he (and others here) and always worth reading.
I think Timmy Watson may be a bit off the mark with Thomson. With all the success he has been part of at the club it would be a big call to leave while they are still challenging.
Malthouse will be an interesting one as the football world rate him highly, as do I, but he has been at the club for a long time without a huge amount of success and without any offical rebuild (though secretly, with a large percentage of their list below 22, I think he has been).
Williams, Laidly and Worsfold would all be big chances which was a big reason I believe the Eagles tried to secure Voss as an assistant coach this year.
TW, who has been under the most pressure for his 5 year tenure, may find himself a more secure of all the coaches. Sounds like another coach firing frenzy year...
Stripes
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I've enjoyed the debate also smokey. MM in particular uses facts and argues the point rather than the 'man' so to speak, so he (and others here) and always worth reading.
Ta Striper & others. I have enjoyed the debate too and think that there are some valid points on both sides.
I guess we'll find out soon enough whether Terry will be coach in 2010 and beyond. As I have said before I will be more than happy if he's a runaway success because that will fundamentally mean Richmond will be successful too. 8)
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You have to be very lucky to unearth a diamond that far down. That's why clubs pass on late picks and trial players before the PSD.
Contradicting yourself here fish. There is still quality later in the draft. Some good players have come out of the rookie draft from that year.
No contradiction. :) That's my point. Some clubs, Richmond in particular, pass on late speculative ND picks they know little about in favour of keeping a PSD pick. They then invite some kids they are possibly interested in to get a look at them up close and make a more educated decision on whether any are worth drafting.
Obviously none jumped out in 2006 so they selected Kingsley. Without hindsight, a reasonable punt when 5 kids + Polak had already been added to the list.
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Adam Pattison is a trier but sadly that is all he is.
If you think he will bring us a flag or close to it, then with all due respect Stripes you dont know poo about Football.
I cant say he is our worst pick ever but he is up there IMO with Fiora, S Morrison and Danny Meyer.
Face facts our 5 picks brought us only Lids as a success. The rest have done SFA. Hang on Tambling scored 5 goals against the Eagles in ONE game
TW will coach Richmond in 2009......but he will be judged come round 11. If no finals in sight and worse a bottom 4 looming its curtains and good riddans to a man who simply cant take us to that level.
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TW will coach Richmond in 2009......but he will be judged come round 11. If no finals in sight and worse a bottom 4 looming its curtains and good riddans to a man who simply cant take us to that level.
Shame we can't say the same about some people - good 'riddance' to those who show no capacity for understanding the reality behind football clubs.
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Adam Pattison is a trier but sadly that is all he is.
If you think he will bring us a flag or close to it, then with all due respect Stripes you dont know poo about Football.
I can't remember even mentioning Patto on this thread ??? For the record I think Patto will hopefully be overtaken by our younger rucks in 2009. He seems like a great fellow but I believe he lacks the pace, height and skills of someone like Vickery or Putt but they are still developing.
Thanks for your input though daniel.
Stripes
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not much chance now :whistle
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not much chance now :whistle
You have said not much chance SBT.
I give him none.