One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Stripes on December 16, 2010, 10:20:58 PM
-
Rank our midfielders from 1st to last. Firstly, after running through the list I was amazed by how many midfielders we have :o Many of them could and probably will play in attack or defence but currently they are midfielders. I haven't added players such as Newman, Deledio, Connor, Taylor, Dea, Farmer, King etc who do/could rotate through the midfield but play predominately in defence or attack.
Here is my order based on midfield 'importance' but not necessarily form -
1. Cotchin - complete package, inside/outside, beautiful skills, natural leader, potential upside is enormous
2. Foley - was clearly our best midfielder before he was injured
3. Martin - amazing strength in congestion, wonderful skills
4. Jackson - incredibly important to our midfield structure and our best taggers by a country mile
5. Edwards - X-Factor, pace and skills, has increased in size too
6. Morton - beautiful footskills, knows how to find a goal, defensive skills a deficency at the moment
7. Tuck - very under-rated, inside work is invaluable, skills/decision-making lets him down
8. Houli - fantastic footskills, great tackler, would be ranked higher but has not played for the club as yet
9. Grigg - Tough, huge engine, big kick, would be ranked higher but has not played for the club as yet
10. Conca - Amazing upsize, beautiful skills, inside/outide player, has played for the WAFL but still as raw as they come. Potential alone pushes him up the rankings for me.
11. White - fast, gets best out of his natural ability, good-honest players
12. Nason - good first season
13. Webberley - wonderful kick but needs to continue to improve
14. Nahas - great pace, dangerous around goals, struggles to hold tackles,undersized, seems to go going backwards,
15. Contin - small, but potential to be great inside player
16. Hicks - super fast, great goal sense but very raw and undersized
17. Helbig - highlights looks good but still a baby. Could easily be much higher.
Thanks
Stripes
-
Wouldn't say Foley was our best before he was injured. Deledio and his B&Fs might have something to say about that ;D
-
Wouldn't say Foley was our best before he was injured. Deledio and his B&Fs might have something to say about that ;D
Deledio always struggles with taggers even when playing in the middle. I think he had his best year in 2010 yet he didn't win the B&F which is a testament to the improvement of those around him rather than a drop in form on his behalf. For years he was our No.1 midfielder in terms of class and impact but Foley had the most influence with his inside work and pace breaking away from the packs. This is what we have missed most from Foley. As long as Cotch, Martin, Foley etc excel in the centre, Lids could return to the middle and possibly avoid a tag but I feel his best position is off half back where a tag is less of an issue and he can set play up more.
At the moment Foley would be play 2nd string to Cotch and even Martin by the opposition until he gives them reason to change their thinking which is what I believe will happen if he can get back into the team fully fit.
I take your point about Lids though.
Stripes
-
Wouldn't say Foley was our best before he was injured. Deledio and his B&Fs might have something to say about that ;D
Deledio always struggles with taggers even when playing in the middle. I think he had his best year in 2010 yet he didn't win the B&F which is a testament to the improvement of those around him rather than a drop in form on his behalf. For years he was our No.1 midfielder in terms of class and impact but Foley had the most influence with his inside work and pace breaking away from the packs. This is what we have missed most from Foley. As long as Cotch, Martin, Foley etc excel in the centre, Lids could return to the middle and possibly avoid a tag but I feel his best position is off half back where a tag is less of an issue and he can set play up more.
At the moment Foley would be play 2nd string to Cotch and even Martin by the opposition until he gives them reason to change their thinking which is what I believe will happen if he can get back into the team fully fit.
I take your point about Lids though.
Stripes
Fair point, Stripes. That's a quality post :thumbsup
-
Wouldn't say Foley was our best before he was injured. Deledio and his B&Fs might have something to say about that ;D
Deledio always struggles with taggers even when playing in the middle. I think he had his best year in 2010 yet he didn't win the B&F which is a testament to the improvement of those around him rather than a drop in form on his behalf. For years he was our No.1 midfielder in terms of class and impact but Foley had the most influence with his inside work and pace breaking away from the packs. This is what we have missed most from Foley. As long as Cotch, Martin, Foley etc excel in the centre, Lids could return to the middle and possibly avoid a tag but I feel his best position is off half back where a tag is less of an issue and he can set play up more.
At the moment Foley would be play 2nd string to Cotch and even Martin by the opposition until he gives them reason to change their thinking which is what I believe will happen if he can get back into the team fully fit.
I take your point about Lids though.
Stripes
Now we have such a strong developing midfield, I don't think the tagging will be as much of an issue. You can't tag all of Lids, Cotch, Martin & Foley.
Even if they do tag Lids, it will free up one of the others, it will be a nightmare for the opposition. :thumbsup
-
not sure that pat contin at 183cm and 83k would be described as small, what do you call Foley, Tom thumb ::)
-
At the moment we are ranked 15th of 16! Sorry someone had to say it ;D
-
Our midfield is not rank! ;D
-
Our midfield is not rank! ;D
True, but you are one rank mofo. I've heard the stories you sick son of a bitch!
Will be hard for the Slop to break into the midfield. Adam Thomson was a better midfielder, IMO. :-\ Best of luck to him though
-
Our midfield is not rank! ;D
True, but you are one rank mofo. I've heard the stories you sick son of a bitch!
:-*
-
:santa
-
I would place Tucky above Edwards and Morton in that list! Otherwise, very well compiled!
-
I find it interesting this commonly held belief that lids can't handle a tag, in 2008 he ave 24.5 possies per game and was in champion datas team of the year, also short listed for aal aussie-he was tagged all year. In 2008 he ave 24.3 poosies and led the LEAGUE in contested possies for the last 10 rounds, he was tagged- Yet we have these people who just roll out the same old stuff withiut research. Who else has these figures in the tiges side that Does get tagged??? I don't think some people realise how difficult it is to ave 24-25 possies per match over 22 games in a side thats not going fantastic or in fact in any side.
-
I find it interesting this commonly held belief that lids can't handle a tag, in 2008 he ave 24.5 possies per game and was in champion datas team of the year, also short listed for aal aussie-he was tagged all year. In 2008 he ave 24.3 poosies and led the LEAGUE in contested possies for the last 10 rounds, he was tagged- Yet we have these people who just roll out the same old stuff withiut research. Who else has these figures in the tiges side that Does get tagged??? I don't think some people realise how difficult it is to ave 24-25 possies per match over 22 games in a side thats not going fantastic or in fact in any side.
In 2008 Lids wasn't tagged until later in that year at that was only spasmotically. In 2009 he began the year playing as a forward but was forced into the middle later in the year when injuries to other mids and a team form demanded the change. The coaches and Lids himself have stated he has struggled with a hard tag in the past and it was acknowledged that it was an area of his game he needed to improve. Was he and is he a fantastic player - hell yes but this deficency is the last thing holding him back from pushing into the same bracket as Judd, Ablett and co.
Just as an aside, Cotchin has been equally focused on this year by taggers and even though he is yet to have a full preseason and nursed an injury for much of hus career, he has found the weight of a tag much easier to bear. I feel if Lids went back into the middle again he would have a easier time of it due to the simple fact that he now would have more support. When he was roaming around the middle as a 19/20 year old he was THE only really damaging ball user which game him the heavy tag far earlier than he would have received in any other team in the competition at his age.
In addition, the other big factor, on top of the increased strength of the midfield as a whole and thus the difficulty of the opposition to cover all talent, is the support in the middle now. I think Cousins and Dimma can be attributed particularly to this improvement. Blocking, shepherding, off the ball set ups etc now mean taggers have a far more difficult time with our midfielders. The midfield unit works as a team to create space and run, something that was obviously missing when Lids was in the midfield and Wallace neglected the defensive/off the ball elements of our game.
I still think Lids is our best player but no one is perfect and every player has element to improve. When those around you lift you rise with them which is what I think will continue to occur with Lids and in particular our midfield. But of course Lids isn't a midfield at the moment now is he... ;)
Stripes
-
In fact in 2008 lids was tagged for most of the season, and this is from the horses mouth and from the then coach, also cotch is not handling the tag any easier and do you think he is the only player to carry an injury?
Don't get me wrong about cotch wonderful player but perception of what is and what really is can be very different.
-
In 2008 Lids wasn't tagged until later in that year at that was only spasmotically. In 2009 he began the year playing as a forward but was forced into the middle later in the year when injuries to other mids and a team form demanded the change. The coaches and Lids himself have stated he has struggled with a hard tag in the past and it was acknowledged that it was an area of his game he needed to improve. Was he and is he a fantastic player - hell yes but this deficency is the last thing holding him back from pushing into the same bracket as Judd, Ablett and co.
In 2009 wallace continued his strategy of avoiding the tag by playing him in the forward line. When Rawlings took over he made Delideo face the problem head on and put him back into the midfield.
-
In 2008 Lids wasn't tagged until later in that year at that was only spasmotically. In 2009 he began the year playing as a forward but was forced into the middle later in the year when injuries to other mids and a team form demanded the change. The coaches and Lids himself have stated he has struggled with a hard tag in the past and it was acknowledged that it was an area of his game he needed to improve. Was he and is he a fantastic player - hell yes but this deficency is the last thing holding him back from pushing into the same bracket as Judd, Ablett and co.
In 2009 wallace continued his strategy of avoiding the tag by playing him in the forward line. When Rawlings took over he made Delideo face the problem head on and put him back into the midfield.
and is why tagging him was and probably still a huge issue for Lids when he should have developed strategies to overcome the issue in the first years of his AFL career....
-
In fact in 2008 lids was tagged for most of the season, and this is from the horses mouth and from the then coach, also cotch is not handling the tag any easier and do you think he is the only player to carry an injury?
Don't get me wrong about cotch wonderful player but perception of what is and what really is can be very different.
The Cotchin comparison aside, Lids has played with much more flair, confidence and conviction running off the half back for many reasons - not the least of them the additional freedom he has experienced in the role with a much lighter tag. Lids still gets close attention but it is not all exclusively one way now where when he received the heavy weekly tag, it was. Perception and reality are often confused, I agree, but when the coaches and the player himself admits difficulty with tags I would suggest that Lids has had difficulty with tags in the past. Seems logical to me :P
In addition, Cotch may not be the only player to go through a season with injury (Jack injuried his hand early in 2010 yet still won the Coleman medal) but his injury has been severe enough to sideline him altogether in years past. Cotch has never had the fitness base that others have and I'm excited about seeing him play at full fitness this year to see what he can produce. Cotch has been able to handle the tag better than Lids this year but this is because he has 1)been better enducated to shake a tag and 2)had the support around him Lids lacked to free him up more. Nothing to do with perception there... ;)
Stripes
-
2008 lids average dis.24.4 and 28 goals , 2010 cotch average dis. 19.5 and 4 goals . How is that handling a tag better? What was that about perception?
-
2008 lids average dis.24.4 and 28 goals , 2010 cotch average dis. 19.5 and 4 goals . How is that handling a tag better? What was that about perception?
Lids has been in the system longer, played many more games and has been injury free! Cotch is less experienced and has been nurdes through a lot better! Therefore Cotch appears to be handling it better and earlier!
-
2008 lids average dis.24.4 and 28 goals , 2010 cotch average dis. 19.5 and 4 goals . How is that handling a tag better? What was that about perception?
Lids has been in the system longer, played many more games and has been injury free! Cotch is less experienced and has been nurdes through a lot better! Therefore Cotch appears to be handling it better and earlier!
Thanks Go Richo 12! I was about to give almost the same answer in a much more long winded post but you've summed it up nicely :thumbsup
-
2008 lids average dis.24.4 and 28 goals , 2010 cotch average dis. 19.5 and 4 goals . How is that handling a tag better? What was that about perception?
Lids has been in the system longer, played many more games and has been injury free! Cotch is less experienced and has been nurdes through a lot better! Therefore Cotch appears to be handling it better and earlier!
He compared Lids 2008 to Cotch 2010 so similar/same years in the system
-
If you want to look at exactly the same years their third lids averaged one possie less but kicked 21 goals , I'm not sure cotch has kicked 21 goals in total in three years . Again I reckon cotch is a great player but your perception of handling tags I don't feel is warranted.
-
Lids has been in the system longer, played many more games and has been injury free! Cotch is less experienced and has been nurdes through a lot better! Therefore Cotch appears to be handling it better and earlier!
Very good discussion here - interesting points
And BTW I think you will find Lids has played injured rather than being totally injury free. Played with a nasty elbow for a considerable time in 2009 I think it was
-
I reckon that was 2010 Williampowell ,I believe he carried a knee through 2008 and had it fixed at season end and had both shoulders operated on in 2009 at season end. This bloke is alot tougher and resilient than the pretty boy image would suggest. Again perception is not always the truth. How do I know? well it's amazing what you can pick up if you listen and watch very carefully at training......... and if you know somebody on the medical/ training staff.
-
I reckon that was 2010 Williampowell ,I believe he carried a knee through 2008 and had it fixed at season end and had both shoulders operated on in 2009 at season end. This bloke is alot tougher and resilient than the pretty boy image would suggest. Again perception is not always the truth. How do I know? well it's amazing what you can pick up if you listen and watch very carefully at training......... and if you know somebody on the medical/ training staff.
It's good to have this debate! At the end of the day (bad cliche!) we havetwo absolute crackers here in Lids and Cotch and it is good to be comparing players from the same team as opposed to players at different clubs taken in the same draft! e.g. Blingers versus Buddy!
-
If you want to look at exactly the same years their third lids averaged one possie less but kicked 21 goals , I'm not sure cotch has kicked 21 goals in total in three years . Again I reckon cotch is a great player but your perception of handling tags I don't feel is warranted.
Which would make them relatively even! Lids has played forward, thus more goals but less possies (albeit only one!)!
-
I agree. Nice to have a debate about who is better in our side than who is worse for a change. ;)
Probably the biggest difference in injury terms is the type of injury and its relative effect. Lids was able to play through his injuries which were relatively minor (at least in foot terms - I'd probably be complaining 24/7 ;D) where as Cotch injuries were long term and not only effected him in isolation but completely destroyed his chances of entering the season fully fit which is paramount if you are a midfielder. Cotch has never had a preseason and it is widely known that players need to series of full preseasons under their belt before they even come close to reaching their conditioning peak. Even when he played out a full game, Cotch faded in and out of the contest due to fitness (Martin did similar btw) and yet despite this he was still able to find himself in space far more than Lids has done in the same role in the past.
I've mentioned it two times already but I'll say it again in the hope of people listening - Lids himself said he struggled with the tag while playing in the midfield and the coaches mentioned it numerous times but decided to, rather than address it, finds ways to have Lids avoid it. As I already mentioned, a big factor of Cotch's improvement in the middle regardless of opposition attention, is the skills and strategies imparted on to him by Cousins and Dimma plus the extra protection he has gained from the new setups/defensive focus. Lids never had this - it was everyone for themselves when he was in the middle and for someone his age at the time being blanketed in such a manner would have been debilitating.
Stripes
-
I reckon that was 2010 Williampowell ,I believe he carried a knee through 2008 and had it fixed at season end and had both shoulders operated on in 2009 at season end. This bloke is alot tougher and resilient than the pretty boy image would suggest. Again perception is not always the truth. How do I know? well it's amazing what you can pick up if you listen and watch very carefully at training......... and if you know somebody on the medical/ training staff.
Thanks dogged - I knew there was an elbow problem in there somewhere
Forgot about the shoulder
Remeber one time in Perth he went off and up in the stands we thought he was gone for the season - came back on and ended up being close to BOG. Agree he is more resilient than people give him credit foras a result of that it is one of the reason I still think he would make an outstanding captain - he's just continued to grow as a leader in the last 18 months
-
Sorry to harp on this stripes but you said cotch found himself in space more than lids in this role ,so do I understand you as intimating that cotch has been more effective? Again the stats do not back this up or am I missing something. Interesting to note also about lids saying he had trouble with a tag. Have you ever heard a player say they did it easy against a tag? And I believe lids had to say something along the party line. My personal belief is Rawlings was putting pressure on quite a few players BUT not necessarily always the ones who really needed it , Wallace also.
-
Sorry to harp on this stripes but you said cotch found himself in space more than lids in this role ,so do I understand you as intimating that cotch has been more effective? Again the stats do not back this up or am I missing something. Interesting to note also about lids saying he had trouble with a tag. Have you ever heard a player say they did it easy against a tag? And I believe lids had to say something along the party line. My personal belief is Rawlings was putting pressure on quite a few players BUT not necessarily always the ones who really needed it , Wallace also.
Personally, i think Cotch has made an impact ealier than lids did, even though he won the rising star award! Lids, up until recently, has been a little maligned. Cotch has not! That may have a lot to do with being a number 1 draft pick but i think Cotch will be a better player! That is not bagging Lids, he is great, but Cotch will be better imo.
-
Rank our midfielders from 1st to last. Firstly, after running through the list I was amazed by how many midfielders we have :o Many of them could and probably will play in attack or defence but currently they are midfielders. I haven't added players such as Newman, Deledio, Connor, Taylor, Dea, Farmer, King etc who do/could rotate through the midfield but play predominately in defence or attack.
Here is my order based on midfield 'importance' but not necessarily form -
1. Cotchin - complete package, inside/outside, beautiful skills, natural leader, potential upside is enormous
2. Foley - was clearly our best midfielder before he was injured
3. Martin - amazing strength in congestion, wonderful skills
4. Jackson - incredibly important to our midfield structure and our best taggers by a country mile
5. Edwards - X-Factor, pace and skills, has increased in size too
6. Morton - beautiful footskills, knows how to find a goal, defensive skills a deficency at the moment
7. Tuck - very under-rated, inside work is invaluable, skills/decision-making lets him down
8. Houli - fantastic footskills, great tackler, would be ranked higher but has not played for the club as yet
9. Grigg - Tough, huge engine, big kick, would be ranked higher but has not played for the club as yet
10. Conca - Amazing upsize, beautiful skills, inside/outide player, has played for the WAFL but still as raw as they come. Potential alone pushes him up the rankings for me.
11. White - fast, gets best out of his natural ability, good-honest players
12. Nason - good first season
13. Webberley - wonderful kick but needs to continue to improve
14. Nahas - great pace, dangerous around goals, struggles to hold tackles,undersized, seems to go going backwards,
15. Contin - small, but potential to be great inside player
16. Hicks - super fast, great goal sense but very raw and undersized
17. Helbig - highlights looks good but still a baby. Could easily be much higher.
Thanks
Stripes
should i do a realistic appraisal of those 17. hmm dont bother claw let the ferals wallow in their delusions of grandeur after all it is only december.
-
Claw is here!
Gods gift to football speaks!
:gobdrop
-
let the ferals wallow in their delusions of grandeur after all it is only december.
but wallowing keeps us cool in summer mr. maudlin :'(
-
Sorry to harp on this stripes but you said cotch found himself in space more than lids in this role ,so do I understand you as intimating that cotch has been more effective? Again the stats do not back this up or am I missing something. Interesting to note also about lids saying he had trouble with a tag. Have you ever heard a player say they did it easy against a tag? And I believe lids had to say something along the party line. My personal belief is Rawlings was putting pressure on quite a few players BUT not necessarily always the ones who really needed it , Wallace also.
Dogged, I'm not suggesting Cotch won more of the ball but more-so that Cotch has better better coped with a tag. Lids played as an outside midfielder until 2009 when he started to move more into the packs and subsequently broke a finger I believe whereas Cotch is piling in under the packs already. Lids had the fitness and pace to carry the ball down the wings while Cotch has been underdone yet still performed well.
My stance is that Cotch is better at breaking a tag than Lids was. I suggest this is the case because Lids and the coaches stated this assertion directly and he was moved to the wing, forwardline and backline to avoid a tag. Cotch has never been shielded regardless of his current health. He has been educated through training, off-field strategising and on-field structure and experience.
The stats show Lids has had more of the ball but he was a ball carrier and a goal scorer while Cotch is an inside playmaker who has never had a preseason or injury free year. This year will may well get our answer to who can break a tag more consistently and perform better under such continuous scrutiny if Cotch does finally train unrestricted and have an uninterrupted year.
By the way, Lids has not been a designated midfielder this year so how has he taken over the focus of this topic so exclusively ??? :P
Stripes
-
should i do a realistic appraisal of those 17. hmm dont bother claw let the ferals wallow in their delusions of grandeur after all it is only december.
Delusions of grandeur... :o The thread is about ranking OUR midfield not comparing them to other teams. Where is the delusion there?
But all the same please enlighten us with your 'realistic appraisal'. This feral would love to hear reality according to claw. :bow
-
I think it was because you said lids doesn't handle a tag and cotch does BUT no matter ...... you say tomaaaaato I say tomarto , it is all opinion
-
I think it was because you said lids doesn't handle a tag and cotch does BUT no matter ...... you say tomaaaaato I say tomarto , it is all opinion
:cheers Have a great christmas :santa
-
you too!!
-
....... reality according to claw.
That would be the same as Military Intelligence?
-
I have stolen the "Claws" realistic appraisal of our midfield from his laptop.(I am a malicious troublemaker too.)
Here it is.
1) Cotchin.....OK
2) Foley.....over the hill
3) Martin....OK
4) Jackson...crap
5) Edwards...crap
6) morton....crap
7) Tuck....double crap
8) houli....essendon crap
9) grigg....carlton crap
10-17) all crap.
-
hmm i believe i did a thread in january titled an honest and realistic appraisal of our players. what i will do is go find that and start anew.