Rank our Midfield

[Penelope]

In 2008 Lids wasn't tagged until later in that year at that was only spasmotically. In 2009 he began the year playing as a forward but was forced into the middle later in the year when injuries to other mids and a team form demanded the change. The coaches and Lids himself have stated he has struggled with a hard tag in the past and it was acknowledged that it was an area of his game he needed to improve. Was he and is he a fantastic player - hell yes but this deficency is the last thing holding him back from pushing into the same bracket as Judd, Ablett and co.

In 2009 wallace continued his strategy of avoiding the tag by playing him in the forward line. When Rawlings took over he made Delideo face the problem head on and put him back into the midfield.

[Stripes]

In 2008 Lids wasn't tagged until later in that year at that was only spasmotically. In 2009 he began the year playing as a forward but was forced into the middle later in the year when injuries to other mids and a team form demanded the change. The coaches and Lids himself have stated he has struggled with a hard tag in the past and it was acknowledged that it was an area of his game he needed to improve. Was he and is he a fantastic player - hell yes but this deficency is the last thing holding him back from pushing into the same bracket as Judd, Ablett and co.

In 2009 wallace continued his strategy of avoiding the tag by playing him in the forward line. When Rawlings took over he made Delideo face the problem head on and put him back into the midfield.

and is why tagging him was and probably still a huge issue for Lids when he should have developed strategies to overcome the issue in the first years of his AFL career....

[Stripes]

In fact in 2008 lids was tagged for most of the season, and this is from the horses mouth and from the then coach, also cotch is not handling the tag any easier and do you think he is the only player to carry an injury?
Don't get me wrong about cotch wonderful player but perception of what is and what really is can be very different.

The Cotchin comparison aside, Lids has played with much more flair, confidence and conviction running off the half back for many reasons - not the least of them the additional freedom he has experienced in the role with a much lighter tag. Lids still gets close attention but it is not all exclusively one way now where when he received the heavy weekly tag, it was. Perception and reality are often confused, I agree, but when the coaches and the player himself admits difficulty with tags I would suggest that Lids has had difficulty with tags in the past. Seems logical to me 

In addition, Cotch may not be the only player to go through a season with injury (Jack injuried his hand early in 2010 yet still won the Coleman medal) but his injury has been severe enough to sideline him altogether in years past. Cotch has never had the fitness base that others have and I'm excited about seeing him play at full fitness this year to see what he can produce. Cotch has been able to handle the tag better than Lids this year but this is because he has 1)been better enducated to shake a tag and 2)had the support around him Lids lacked to free him up more. Nothing to do with perception there...

Stripes

[dogged]

2008 lids average dis.24.4 and 28 goals , 2010 cotch average dis. 19.5 and 4 goals . How is that handling a tag better? What was that about perception?

[Go Richo 12]

2008 lids average dis.24.4 and 28 goals , 2010 cotch average dis. 19.5 and 4 goals . How is that handling a tag better? What was that about perception?

Lids has been in the system longer, played many more games and has been injury free! Cotch is less experienced and has been nurdes through a lot better! Therefore Cotch appears to be handling it better and earlier!

[Stripes]

2008 lids average dis.24.4 and 28 goals , 2010 cotch average dis. 19.5 and 4 goals . How is that handling a tag better? What was that about perception?

Lids has been in the system longer, played many more games and has been injury free! Cotch is less experienced and has been nurdes through a lot better! Therefore Cotch appears to be handling it better and earlier!

Thanks Go Richo 12! I was about to give almost the same answer in a much more long winded post but you've summed it up nicely 

[Infamy]

2008 lids average dis.24.4 and 28 goals , 2010 cotch average dis. 19.5 and 4 goals . How is that handling a tag better? What was that about perception?

Lids has been in the system longer, played many more games and has been injury free! Cotch is less experienced and has been nurdes through a lot better! Therefore Cotch appears to be handling it better and earlier!

He compared Lids 2008 to Cotch 2010 so similar/same years in the system

[dogged]

If you want to look at exactly the same years their third lids averaged one possie less but kicked 21 goals , I'm not sure cotch has kicked 21 goals in total in three years . Again I reckon cotch is a great player but your perception of handling tags I don't feel is warranted.

[WilliamPowell]

Lids has been in the system longer, played many more games and has been injury free! Cotch is less experienced and has been nurdes through a lot better! Therefore Cotch appears to be handling it better and earlier!

Very good discussion here - interesting points

And BTW I think you will find Lids has played injured rather than being totally injury free. Played with a nasty elbow for a considerable time in 2009 I think it was

[dogged]

I reckon that was 2010 Williampowell ,I believe he carried a knee through 2008 and had it fixed at season end and had both shoulders operated on in 2009 at season end. This bloke is alot tougher and resilient than the pretty boy image would suggest. Again perception is not always the truth. How do I know? well it's amazing what you can pick up if you listen and watch very carefully at training......... and if you know somebody on the medical/ training staff.

[Go Richo 12]

I reckon that was 2010 Williampowell ,I believe he carried a knee through 2008 and had it fixed at season end and had both shoulders operated on in 2009 at season end. This bloke is alot tougher and resilient than the pretty boy image would suggest. Again perception is not always the truth. How do I know? well it's amazing what you can pick up if you listen and watch very carefully at training......... and if you know somebody on the medical/ training staff.

It's good to have this debate! At the end of the day (bad cliche!) we havetwo absolute crackers here in Lids and Cotch and it is good to be comparing players from the same team as opposed to players at different clubs taken in the same draft! e.g. Blingers versus Buddy!

[Go Richo 12]

If you want to look at exactly the same years their third lids averaged one possie less but kicked 21 goals , I'm not sure cotch has kicked 21 goals in total in three years . Again I reckon cotch is a great player but your perception of handling tags I don't feel is warranted.

Which would make them relatively even! Lids has played forward, thus more goals but less possies (albeit only one!)!

[Stripes]

I agree. Nice to have a debate about who is better in our side than who is worse for a change.

Probably the biggest difference in injury terms is the type of injury and its relative effect. Lids was able to play through his injuries which were relatively minor (at least in foot terms - I'd probably be complaining 24/7  ) where as Cotch injuries were long term and not only effected him in isolation but completely destroyed his chances of entering the season fully fit which is paramount if you are a midfielder. Cotch has never had a preseason and it is widely known that players need to series of full preseasons under their belt before they even come close to reaching their conditioning peak. Even when he played out a full game, Cotch faded in and out of the contest due to fitness (Martin did similar btw) and yet despite this he was still able to find himself in space far more than Lids has done in the same role in the past.

I've mentioned it two times already but I'll say it again in the hope of people listening - Lids himself said he struggled with the tag while playing in the midfield and the coaches mentioned it numerous times but decided to, rather than address it, finds ways to have Lids avoid it. As I already mentioned, a big factor of Cotch's improvement in the middle regardless of opposition attention, is the skills and strategies imparted on to him by Cousins and Dimma plus the extra protection he has gained from the new setups/defensive focus. Lids never had this - it was everyone for themselves when he was in the middle and for someone his age at the time being blanketed in such a manner would have been debilitating.

Stripes

[WilliamPowell]

I reckon that was 2010 Williampowell ,I believe he carried a knee through 2008 and had it fixed at season end and had both shoulders operated on in 2009 at season end. This bloke is alot tougher and resilient than the pretty boy image would suggest. Again perception is not always the truth. How do I know? well it's amazing what you can pick up if you listen and watch very carefully at training......... and if you know somebody on the medical/ training staff.

Thanks dogged - I knew there was an elbow problem in there somewhere

Forgot about the shoulder

Remeber one time in Perth he went off and up in the stands we thought he was gone for the season - came back on and ended up being close to BOG. Agree he is more resilient than people give him credit foras a result of that it is one of the reason I still think he would make an outstanding captain - he's just continued to grow as a leader in the last 18 months 

[dogged]

Sorry to harp on this stripes but you said cotch found himself in space more than lids in this role ,so do I understand you as intimating that cotch has been more effective? Again the stats do not back this up or am I missing something. Interesting to note also about lids saying he had trouble with a tag.  Have you ever heard a player say they did it easy against a tag? And I believe lids had to say something along the party line. My personal belief is Rawlings was putting pressure on quite a few players BUT not necessarily always the ones who really needed it , Wallace also.