One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: TigerLand on March 06, 2011, 01:56:44 AM
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You can't take anything out of our pre season games; when predicting the season.
We have not played a game with Riewoldt who kicked approx. 70% of our goals last season. You can't take that out of your side an expect much.
No Deledio (except for a half) and no Newman our general down back. You can't take the Hawthorn game as any indication. Probably our 3 most important players.
No-one should be stressing or getting excited and predicted this and that. The Pre Season stuff is absolute garbage there is no point of even having a scoreboard IMO.
Remember last season we pumped Geelong 2 weeks before losing by nearly a hundred points to Carlton in round 1.
Ge this crap over and done with and bring on the real stuff.
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We are also missing Post and Griffiths. With Reiwoldt as the key forward, I think these 2 young athletic talls will be pretty handy as 2nd and 3rd tall forwards. Think they'll provide alot more than Miller
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A Sudanese farm could provide for more than Miller.
If he gets named ahead of a fit post or griff I'll spew up.
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While I agree that pre season games are garbage indicators, it is still a relative indicator - after all every side could mount a similar argument about missing players and/or trying different tactics. The problem with the Hawthorn game was we looked like we went backwards when compared to last week - with a stronger team. Hope it's an anonomy because as someone else posted, no point practicing poo!
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A Sudanese farm could provide for more than Miller.
If he gets named ahead of a fit post or griff I'll spew up.
While we're at it can we please not play nahas, miller, jackson and tuck in Round 1 8)
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It is an indicator that we are going to struggle against more talented teams but there are no surprises there. Agree generally can't read too much into preseason games.
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It is an indicator that we are going to struggle against more talented teams but there are no surprises there. Agree generally can't read too much into preseason games.
on the basis that we have 3 of our best 5 players OUT when up against them YES ::)
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A Sudanese farm could provide for more than Miller.
If he gets named ahead of a fit post or griff I'll spew up.
While we're at it can we please not play nahas, miller, jackson and tuck in Round 1 8)
spot on, although i think we need one of Jackson and Tuck playing, not both of them no way.
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surely people dont expect a magic turnaround in 2011? What happened at shepp the other night is a pretty realistic assessment of what will likely happen in the season proper - we've still got plenty of miles to put into the legs before we turn that corner from sh!thouse youngside to bonafide decent side.
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you have to wonder about what people actually expect dont you tony?
I can see a side that is starting to play in a way that forces errors from the opposition, something we have been good at being on the receiving end of, but not delivering in the past. Our ability to wear the pressure applied by the enemy is getting better.
while there was turnovers the other night there was also plenty of times we were able to put a chain of short kicks together that in the past would not have come off.
The game plan is starting to take shape. The pressure is improving. The skills are improving. The decision making is improving. They are still a way off that of the top sides, but if anyone knows of some magic trick that can improve these things enough, in such a short period of time, please contact Dimma ASAP otherwise we will just have to wait a realistic period of time for it to happen.
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A Sudanese farm could provide for more than Miller.
If he gets named ahead of a fit post or griff I'll spew up.
While we're at it can we please not play nahas, miller, jackson and tuck in Round 1 8)
we shouldnt play anyone who butchers the footy in r1. so I agreethat jackson and tuck and nahas miss out.
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Tuck should still play.
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surely people dont expect a magic turnaround in 2011? What happened at shepp the other night is a pretty realistic assessment of what will likely happen in the season proper - we've still got plenty of miles to put into the legs before we turn that corner from poohouse youngside to bonafide decent side.
that's a bit shallow TM, is it not unreasonable to expect JR8 and a handful of others wouldn't make a difference...how do you reckon the ol hawks would have faced up with Max Bailey and wade skipper as key forwards rather than Buddy and Roughy :o
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Tuck should still play.
:thumbsup
"shouldn't play anyone who butchers the footy"
We won't be able to field a side then, ramps.
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A Sudanese farm could provide for more than Miller.
If he gets named ahead of a fit post or griff I'll spew up.
While we're at it can we please not play nahas, miller, jackson and tuck in Round 1 8)
we shouldnt play anyone who butchers the footy in r1. so I agree that Jackson and tuck and nahas miss out.
The turnover stats from last year are interesting.
According to pro stats;
Jackson averaged 22.3 pos, 51% of which were contested and averaged 7.5 turnovers per game or once every three possesions.
Tuck averaged 25.7 pos (51% cont), 8.2 TOV per game (one in three )
that seems pretty bad to me.
but who is the benchmark?
Deledio?
25.3 pos (30% cont) 7.9 TOV (one in three)
Cotchin?
20.3 (64%cont :bow) 7.6TOV one in 2.7 (3?)
Martin?
20.5 (56%cont) 6.7TOV - 1 in 3
Even Arron Davey who i regard as one of the better ball users in the comp turns it over..... once every three disposals.
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Agree that you can't take much from team performance however you can take plenty from individual ones and so far this pre season there have been some positive signs from a few Tigers on that front. 8)
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A Sudanese farm could provide for more than Miller.
If he gets named ahead of a fit post or griff I'll spew up.
While we're at it can we please not play nahas, miller, jackson and tuck in Round 1 8)
we shouldnt play anyone who butchers the footy in r1. so I agree that Jackson and tuck and nahas miss out.
The turnover stats from last year are interesting.
According to pro stats;
Jackson averaged 22.3 pos, 51% of which were contested and averaged 7.5 turnovers per game or once every three possesions.
Tuck averaged 25.7 pos (51% cont), 8.2 TOV per game (one in three )
that seems pretty bad to me.
but who is the benchmark?
Deledio?
25.3 pos (30% cont) 7.9 TOV (one in three)
Cotchin?
20.3 (64%cont :bow) 7.6TOV one in 2.7 (3?)
Martin?
20.5 (56%cont) 6.7TOV - 1 in 3
Even Arron Davey who i regard as one of the better ball users in the comp turns it over..... once every three disposals.
not having a swipe mate but every time a genuine criticism of a player comes up someone pulls up stats that suggest otherwise. for how long now have supporters rightly criticised jackson and others for their disposal or decision making. stats are useless unless the whole is taken into consideration.
an example dustin martin kicks a low flat pass to a target 50 metres away he has two or three opposition players near by but its not quite on the money and is chopped off. he would pull this pass of 6 or 7 times out of ten.
luke mcguane gets the pill but kicks a slow high kick 45 metres to a team mate in space . it becomes a contested ball when it should have hit the team mate or at least been to advantage. yet mcguane is not credited with a poor kick or clanger. there are so many variables that the only true way of judging a players kicking efficiency is by watching for yourself.
heres one they dont keep stats for. what percentage of possesions does jackson stop prop and then take his time in moving the ball on when it should have been instinctively first option.ultimately he kicks to a contest usually where the opposition have the numbers
if really good kicks like martin conca cotchin deledio start playing it safe with their kicking then we are truly lost.
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march chumps. chumps in the real deal. this has been the norm for how long now. well part 1 has been repeated now for part two.
bloody hell people how many players on the list do we have playing for their lives too many. how many do we have supposedly fighting for a spot in the top 22 again bloody too many. yet in no pressure practice games these perennial failures cant get a kick.
whats the difference between us and essendon. they may well be march champions but bloody hell at least they have blokes putting their hands up and saying pick me in rnd one.
its simple cant get a kick in the preseason when you are playing for your life or at least trying to impress and establish yourself you wont get a kick in the real deal.
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Agree with TM's remarks. The Hawks were without some of their best players on Friday eg Hodge. I reiterate we are going to struggle against more talented teams at this stage of the club's development. We have accept that and be patient.
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A Sudanese farm could provide for more than Miller.
If he gets named ahead of a fit post or griff I'll spew up.
While we're at it can we please not play nahas, miller, jackson and tuck in Round 1 8)
we shouldnt play anyone who butchers the footy in r1. so I agree that Jackson and tuck and nahas miss out.
The turnover stats from last year are interesting.
According to pro stats;
Jackson averaged 22.3 pos, 51% of which were contested and averaged 7.5 turnovers per game or once every three possesions.
Tuck averaged 25.7 pos (51% cont), 8.2 TOV per game (one in three )
that seems pretty bad to me.
but who is the benchmark?
Deledio?
25.3 pos (30% cont) 7.9 TOV (one in three)
Cotchin?
20.3 (64%cont :bow) 7.6TOV one in 2.7 (3?)
Martin?
20.5 (56%cont) 6.7TOV - 1 in 3
Even Arron Davey who i regard as one of the better ball users in the comp turns it over..... once every three disposals.
not having a swipe mate but every time a genuine criticism of a player comes up someone pulls up stats that suggest otherwise. for how long now have supporters rightly criticised jackson and others for their disposal or decision making. stats are useless unless the whole is taken into consideration.
an example dustin martin kicks a low flat pass to a target 50 metres away he has two or three opposition players near by but its not quite on the money and is chopped off. he would pull this pass of 6 or 7 times out of ten.
luke mcguane gets the pill but kicks a slow high kick 45 metres to a team mate in space . it becomes a contested ball when it should have hit the team mate or at least been to advantage. yet mcguane is not credited with a poor kick or clanger. there are so many variables that the only true way of judging a players kicking efficiency is by watching for yourself.
heres one they dont keep stats for. what percentage of possesions does jackson stop prop and then take his time in moving the ball on when it should have been instinctively first option.ultimately he kicks to a contest usually where the opposition have the numbers
if really good kicks like martin conca cotchin deledio start playing it safe with their kicking then we are truly lost.
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Don't worry Claw, i can handle a different opinion without taking it as a personal affront.
I have to admit these stats really surprised me but I think they back up something i believe that happens, due to human nature as much as anything else.
A player who looks good when he kicks it will get more leeway for disposal errors than someoene that has an awkward kicking action and once a player gets a reputation , deserved or undeserved, as a poor kick they get jumped on ruthlessly for any discretion while with other players it doesn't even seem to get noticed.
The first NAB cup last year was a good example. Tuck was generally sound in his disposal that night, making one, maybe two glaring errors which bought about the same old tuck is a turnover merchant, while Martin on no less than three occassions, when free, inexplicitely kicked straight to the opposition on no less than three occasions and it was like no one even saw it. ( i know there are valid reasons for this - first game etc). Jowlel Bowden was one who always looked good when he kicked it but generally seemed to escape criticism for the amount of times he managed to hit up the opposition when under no pressure.
The difference of course, as you alluded to, between these players is how creative they can be with ball.
Jackson is just a dumb footballer, something he has basically admitted himself ( not those words) and Tuck is not much better.
Early on Hardwick said that once players get to this level you cant really improve their skills, but you can improve their decision making. Initially i was sceptical about this, but i do believe you can, but only to a certain point. ( i think if you look at the players drafted this year they are all good decision makers, so i think dimma realises that) Basically his theory is that if you drill the game plan into the players over and over and over and over, it takes out a certain element of decision making for the Tucks and Jacksons of this world. They will never be able to influence a game like a cotchin or martin, but they can be serviceable, particularly if given a role that is suited to them. Tuck in particular you could see a big improvement in when he had the ball last year. It was only late in the year he started to revert back to his 'just put boot to ball' caper, which coincidentally was about the time his brother went right off the rails.
I don't use such stats in an attempt to claim that tuck and jackson are as good as those others, just that the perception of them being 'butchers' is not with the foundations that many believe and i'll admit i'm guilty of that with Jackson . I was genuinely surprised to see even Tuck and Jackson turn it over every three times, but more so to see those I regarded as good users turn it over just as often. I doubt too many would would say 1 in 3 if asked how often delidio martin and cotchin turn the ball over.
I know you generally discount stats, but stats themselves don't lie, it's just that they can be used in misleading ways by people.It 's people that lie.
As a note Nahas approached 1 in 2 so i doubt too many will pooh pooh that stat :P
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Let's hope for our sake preseason form this year is meaningless :-\.
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Let's hope for our sake preseason form this year is meaningless :-\.
Only hope :pray
Today was as bad as it gets
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Let's hope for our sake preseason form this year is meaningless :-\.
Only hope :pray
Today was as bad as it gets
So the 2nd & 3rd qtrs didn't rate with you Jack ;D
I thought the 3rd qtr in particular was very good and the 2nd wasn't too bad as they had a dip - forget the scoreboard, it was shot at qtr time ;D
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our 4 scoring shots to there 7 in the 2nd
our 8 scoring shots to there 7 in the 3rd
Crows 7 goals in first and last quarters says enough for me.
Terrible last quarter in what the club termed, a serious hit-out tune up for Round 1, 13 days away.
Hardwick would want to produce a magic wand.
For what its worth, dont like the high risk style as the turnovers kill us, thus we couldnt go inside 50 in the last quarter
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our 4 scoring shots to there 7 in the 2nd
our 8 scoring shots to there 7 in the 3rd
Crows 7 goals in first and last quarters says enough for me.
Terrible last quarter in what the club termed, a serious hit-out tune up for Round 1, 13 days away.
Hardwick would want to produce a magic wand.
For what its worth, dont like the high risk style as the turnovers kill us, thus we couldnt go inside 50 in the last quarter
I thought our pressure and tackling was alot better in the 2nd and then went up another gear in the 3rd. there were some goods sings in the 3rd. We actually looked alot better when got Gus out of the middle and threw Ty Vickery in there
Final qtr was diabolical
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your mate Gus looks gone, although it took him 5 rounds last year to get up and going
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your mate Gus looks gone, although it took him 5 rounds last year to get up and going
Not my mate
I'd play Derickx ahead of him in a heartbeat
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I would play Derickx as well :thumbsup
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Gus ran under the ball at EVERY ruck contest except for 1. Horrid.
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I just got back from the game. Very disappointing. I thought we were a real chance against the Crows as we beat them last year, and Carlscum softened them up for us last week.
Expectations were brought down to earth with a thud, and pretty quickly too I have to say. The Crows are yet another side who KILL us with their defensive zone, their flood or their press or whatever you want to call it. We still have no answer for this style of game.
And seeing as how EVERYONE will be copying Collingwood now unfortunately, it augers for a l-o-o-n-g and frustrating season, if we don't learn pretty quickly how to counter this ugly style of game.
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I would play Derickx as well :thumbsup
I also agree Derickx should play. Vickery has cemented a spot with his performances the last 3 weeks. Hopefully thats enough to be competitive ruck wise in R1. Cant play Angus or Browne ATM.
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I consider this a glorified practice game. Sure we were awful in the first and last quarter but I think that with the season 13 days away you would not want any injuries at this stage of the year.
We know we are still rebuilding if we can win more than 6 games I'll be happy.
This time last year to win four in a row was considered outlandish.
Coaches aren't stupid we may not have the best hand at the table right now but we aren't going to fully reveal it yet. I'm willing to wait and see. If in 18 months barring injuries on a grand scale to the playing list and we are still getting flogged and we look like winning no more than 5 games a season then I'll start
a) Wondering what it will take to fastrack the development of our players.
b) The magnitude of TW decay and destruction of our list and the inner sanctum was worse than what even the incumbents and us the fans could dream of and the finals dream gets pushed back another couple of years.
Right now you can't say we are or aren't on track with a list of kids. We can't judge the development of kids on today's effort.
In equivalent terms we are at where
St Kilda 2002 Geelong 2003 Hawthorn 2005 and mid 2006.
WIthin two years all 3 clubs had played finals and made a prelim with one winning a flag.
We have a declining Geelong, W Bulldogs St Kilda Carlton in terms of age who will need to reinvent their list that's four spots from last years finals that will be up for grabs in the next two years for a club with a young list to regiment itself there for a prolonged finals tilt.
Yes on todays effort we won't get to within 8 goals of the filth, but honestly Carlton at best are a 6-10 side, even this year
In 2009 83 points Totally horrible.
2010 56 points. There was something to like Martin, Nason kicked a few goals in a row.
2011 if we don't win I am optimistic we can further narrow the gap and if we do win even better.
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Obviously a very disappointing result.
You can't take much out of it though. No player gives it 100% 5 goals at 3 qtr time, you just take the peddle of the gas, why risk an injury for a miracle come back in a practice game?
The coaching staff learn alot from these losses, hopefully they can look to fix them early. Better to find them now then after a thrashing against the Blooze
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I consider this a glorified practice game. Sure we were awful in the first and last quarter but I think that with the season 13 days away you would not want any injuries at this stage of the year.
We know we are still rebuilding if we can win more than 6 games I'll be happy.
This time last year to win four in a row was considered outlandish.
Coaches aren't stupid we may not have the best hand at the table right now but we aren't going to fully reveal it yet. I'm willing to wait and see. If in 18 months barring injuries on a grand scale to the playing list and we are still getting flogged and we look like winning no more than 5 games a season then I'll start
a) Wondering what it will take to fastrack the development of our players.
b) The magnitude of TW decay and destruction of our list and the inner sanctum was worse than what even the incumbents and us the fans could dream of and the finals dream gets pushed back another couple of years.
Right now you can't say we are or aren't on track with a list of kids. We can't judge the development of kids on today's effort.
In equivalent terms we are at where
St Kilda 2002 Geelong 2003 Hawthorn 2005 and mid 2006.
WIthin two years all 3 clubs had played finals and made a prelim with one winning a flag.
We have a declining Geelong, W Bulldogs St Kilda Carlton in terms of age who will need to reinvent their list that's four spots from last years finals that will be up for grabs in the next two years for a club with a young list to regiment itself there for a prolonged finals tilt.
Yes on todays effort we won't get to within 8 goals of the filth, but honestly Carlton at best are a 6-10 side, even this year
In 2009 83 points Totally horrible.
2010 56 points. There was something to like Martin, Nason kicked a few goals in a row.
2011 if we don't win I am optimistic we can further narrow the gap and if we do win even better.
Pretty much sums it up tucker, except they are not glorified practice matches, they are practice matches.