One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on July 23, 2016, 05:14:06 AM
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Giant hit from AFL expansion
Rucci on Saturday
The Advertiser
23 July 2016
IT is all about timing in life ... and football.
In 2008 and 2009, the Fremantle Football Club — known then as the “Shockers” rather than the “Dockers” - “bottomed out” to rank 14th in each season. The spoils at the AFL national draft made a football power.
Stephen Hill, Hayden Ballantyne, Nick Suban, Zac Clarke and Michael Walters at the 2008 national call-up. The unlucky Anthony Morabito and Brownlow Medallist Nat Fyfe in 2009 when the AFL recruiting lottery was not compromised.
And then Ross Lyon arrived as coach at the end of 2011 to establish a consistent, imposing AFL team. Timing ...
In 2009 and 2010, the Richmond Football Club virtually mirrored Fremantle. The Tigers ranked 15th and 15th. And this was the wrong time to “bottom out”.
AFL football was amid expansion to 18 teams with Gold Coast (2011) and Greater Western Sydney (2012) ... and the 2010, 2011 and 2012 national drafts were compromised to load up the Suns and Giants with the cream of Australian football’s best young talent.
Not a good time to be at the foot of the AFL ladder ... or starting an AFL senior coaching career as Damien Hardwick did at Richmond in 2010.
And those who want to dismiss Hardwick — despite his contract including the next two seasons — arguing no AFL coach (including premiership mentors it seems) gets the chance for a second rebuild at the same club may need to consider how the Tigers (and Hardwick) were short changed during the expansion cycle.
Jonathon Patton, Stephen Coniglio, Dom Tyson and Adam Tomlinson — all at the Giants in the first 10 picks at the 2011 AFL national draft as Hardwick waited for his recruiting team to call at No. 15: Brandon Ellis.
The four clubs at the foot of the AFL ladder at the end of the 2010 season — as the game was preparing for Gold Coast’s entry as the 17th team in 2011 — make interesting studies today.
BRISBANE was 13th at the end of 2010 — and has not ranked higher since expansion. The Lions’ issues go far beyond picking the wrong time to be at the bottom of the AFL ladder.
The powerhouse club built by coach Leigh Matthews and captain Michael Voss with AFL dominance from 2001-4 has no meaningful legacy. Rather, there is a football club loaded with debt ($13 million); a football program that requires major correction; and a crisis the AFL Commission will see first-hand next week.
And expansion further hurt the Lions off the field with one-third of the commercial revenue lost to Queensland neighbour, Gold Coast.
ESSENDON was 14th at the end of 2010 — and has the big asterisk from the contentious 2012 supplements program at Windy Hill. This saga destroys any meaningful analysis of how the Bombers dealt with the expansion challenge.
WEST COAST was lumbered with the wooden spoon at the end of 2010 — and has played in AFL finals in every season since except 2013 when the Eagles ranked 13th.
Here, the AFL will use West Coast’s success as the counter to any argument on how the compromised draft created doomsday clubs — such as Brisbane and Richmond.
Clearly, the Eagles’ football program is sounder than that at the Lions — and that debate goes far beyond the recent coaches, Voss and the currently battered Justin Leppitsch.
Certainly the West Coast recruiting team was sharper in stockpiling players on the club’s rookie list — and careful with its trade plays. This brings into question the strategies of the football department leaders around Leppitsch at Brisbane and Hardwick at Richmond.
And — as difficult as it can be at times — there is reason to reflect on the views of Collingwood president Eddie McGuire as the expansion debate began ... and quickly ended with his colleague presidents as soon as the AFL executive highlighted the extra television money to be made (and found in record numbers) with an 18-team competition.
“Expansion could be the greatest thing to ever happen to the AFL competition,” said McGuire, “or it could ruin it.
“It’s a big roll of the dice, just on hope. We want to make sure the dice are loaded when I am rolling them.”
Of the risks with a compromised draft in 2010-12, McGuire added: “AFL football is a very fragile ecology and I often wonder why it is that I am the only one that fights for the integrity of the draft and salary cap.”
The AFL Commission had no choice but to deliver significant recruiting concessions to the Giants and Suns as both clubs sought to build strong foundations in tough and unfriendly Australian football environments.
But, to use McGuire’s ca-sino theme, where there are winners, there are also losers. And Richmond — and by extension Hardwick — certainly lost by timing a “bottoming out” when there was no gain. Timing is everything in football.
EXPANSION LOSERS
HOW expansion to 18 AFL teams — with Gold Coast in 2011 and Greater Western Sydney in 2012 — has tested the established clubs that were denied early draft picks.
The 2010-2012 AFL national drafts were compromised to give the Suns and Giants the majority of the much-treasured early picks.
BOTTOM FOUR OF 2010
13. BRISBANE
Rankings since: 15, 13, 12, 15 and 17.
Today: 17th.
Best draft picks (10-12): No. 5 in 2010 (Jared Polec, now at Port Adelaide); No. 8 in 2011 (Blly Longer, now at St Kilda); No. 8 in 2012 (Sam Mayes, signed new deal to 2019).
BIG questions about football program — particularly in development of young recruits — leaves doubts on whether early picks would have helped Lions.
14. ESSENDON
Rankings since: 8, 11, 9, 7 and 15.
Today: 18th.
Best draft picks (10-12): No. 8 in 2010 (Dyson Heppell, signed to 2020); No. 19 in 2011 (Elliott Kavanagh, delisted last season); No. 10 in 2012 (Joe Daniher, father-son).
COMPLICATED by the draft sanctions from the 2012 supplements saga.
15. RICHMOND
Rankings since: 12, 12, 7, 8 and 7.
Today: 13th.
Best draft picks (10-12): No. 6 in 2010 (Reece Conca); No. 15 in 2011 (Brandon Ellis); No. 9 in 2012 (Nick Vlastuin).
NO doubt coach Damien Hardwick’s program at Punt Road has been hurt by being denied early access to the game’s best young talent during expansion.
16. WEST COAST
Rankings since: 4, 5, 13, 9 and 2.
Today: Sixth.
Best draft picks (10-12): No. 4 in 2010 (Andrew Gaff); No. 23 in 2011 (Murray Newman); No. 45 (Brad Colledge).
EAGLES strategy during expansion was to work father-son picks, the rookie list and the trade market. West Coast’s selective recruiting minimised hit from “bottoming out” at wrong time.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/expert-opinion/michelangelo-rucci/michelangelo-rucci-how-the-afl-premiership-clock-stopped-for-some-clubs-during-the-giants-suns-expansion/news-story/6a680516cd6f65b0c9b8aebad4e83ae0
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The article touches on a topic which we have discussed here before, and anyone outside of our followers would call it excuse making. What I would like to have seen is a comprehensive list of what GC and GWS players we specifically missed out on including the mini draft which often gets overlooked.
I believe that would tell an entirely different story altogether not that it makes a difference now.
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Not having a good recruiting team during this time hurt us the most.
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
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yeah right.
Correct Wayno. bottom 4 in the afl if you ask me. Anyone who has a clue can see this which is probably why fail and peggy sue dismiss it.
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Yes , we were screwed by the meaningless expansion teams coming in and it caused us to go "moneyball " crazy.
Hopefully that ends with Townsend and Andrew Moore who have been monumental flops.
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Hardwick's choice to go the money ball path has been compounded some of the poor choices by our recruiting dept.
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Not having a good recruiting team during this time hurt us the most.
Having a poor development coaching program hasn't helped either.
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
They also lost higgins and Cooney for next to nothing and werent afraid to trade out griff - theyre scared to get rid of their best players.
there was no need to go moneyball crazy like we have and continue to do, just takes up spots on our list - who knows how many shorts and castagnas we've missed out on simply bc we didnt give them a go instead going down the moneyball path
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Not having a good recruiting team during this time hurt us the most.
Having a poor development coaching program hasn't helped either.
So poor coaching?
Surely Dimma is to blame for poor development of players??
For me development is as important as anything else a senior coach does.
Dimma would have a massive say on who his assistants and development coaches are and more importantly what he wants the recruits to be taught.
And Dimna also has a massive say on which way type of players our recruiters recruit. Young or old.
And Dimma has shown for a long time that he prefers to play mature players rather than our young kids.
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Right
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Not having a good recruiting team during this time hurt us the most.
Having a poor development coaching program hasn't helped either.
Having a poor coaching regime too with a jobs for mates bunch of yes men backslapping Dumma's game plan that all other coaches around Australia are trying to emulate. :rollin
.... I think we've got the trifecta.
Just as well "DanTheMan" told us it was our fault for not being patient enough or accepting a proper rebuild because, as we all know, we loved just making finals three years in a row. :rollin
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Not having a good recruiting team during this time hurt us the most.
Having a poor development coaching program hasn't helped either.
Having a poor coaching regime too with a jobs for mates bunch of yes men backslapping Dumma's game plan that all other coaches around Australia are trying to emulate. :rollin
.... I think we've got the trifecta.
Just as well "DanTheMan" told us it was our fault for not being patient enough or accepting a proper rebuild because, as we all know, we loved just making finals three years in a row. :rollin
Its the Richmond Holy Trinity.
Dan The Man reminding us fans that we are born sinners and must repent for our very nature rather than actions.
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
They also lost higgins and Cooney for next to nothing and werent afraid to trade out griff - theyre scared to get rid of their best players.
there was no need to go moneyball crazy like we have and continue to do, just takes up spots on our list - who knows how many shorts and castagnas we've missed out on simply bc we didnt give them a go instead going down the moneyball path
Higgins had not contributed much due to injury for several years. They knew Cooney was finished because of his knee (just look at his Essendon form). Griff asked to leave so they didn't have much choice and because they wanted Boyd, found a way to satisfy a player who was finished and at the same time satisfy GWS with a trade.
I do agree whole heartedly with the moneyball issue. We really went overboard with it to the detriment of bringing young talent in. Combine that with us finishing mid table and out of the top 10 picks repeatedly has hurt us so much.
The one really poor decision in the draft was to ignore Heppell. He was there to be picked and we went with someone that nobody rated in the top 20. To me, that was worse than Tambling-Franklin because many "experts" had Tambling as the top pick in the 2004 draft. At the same time, Franklin's psych profile remains one of the worst ever recorded according to people that I know who made the software for the profiling.
Just goes to show talent spotting is not an exact science and just sometimes you have to go "with your gut" and not with just statistics.
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Reece Conca & Brandon Ellis were as strange choices on draft day, as they are now
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Reece Conca & Brandon Ellis were as strange choices on draft day, as they are now
Yeah neither come across as elite athletes or great kicks or great hand ballers. Why did we pick them? Who knows
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FJ specials...whoah... :clapping
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
They also lost higgins and Cooney for next to nothing and werent afraid to trade out griff - theyre scared to get rid of their best players.
there was no need to go moneyball crazy like we have and continue to do, just takes up spots on our list - who knows how many shorts and castagnas we've missed out on simply bc we didnt give them a go instead going down the moneyball path
Higgins had not contributed much due to injury for several years. They knew Cooney was finished because of his knee (just look at his Essendon form). Griff asked to leave so they didn't have much choice and because they wanted Boyd, found a way to satisfy a player who was finished and at the same time satisfy GWS with a trade.
I do agree whole heartedly with the moneyball issue. We really went overboard with it to the detriment of bringing young talent in. Combine that with us finishing mid table and out of the top 10 picks repeatedly has hurt us so much.
The one really poor decision in the draft was to ignore Heppell. He was there to be picked and we went with someone that nobody rated in the top 20. To me, that was worse than Tambling-Franklin because many "experts" had Tambling as the top pick in the 2004 draft. At the same time, Franklin's psych profile remains one of the worst ever recorded according to people that I know who made the software for the profiling.
Just goes to show talent spotting is not an exact science and just sometimes you have to go "with your gut" and not with just statistics.
Ok, was lake finished too? Ward? Hill? You're really going to justify every single one of them?
and would people be happy with pick 37 for Lids bc his achilles is stuffed? This place would melt down. Regardless of what you think of Cooney's knee, letting a former brownlow medalist go for pick 37 shows guts. Could you imagine our club doing the same?
WB also lost Lake, Ward, Hill during that time. Yes they got a top 6 pick for Ward as compensation but that doesnt equate to guaranteed gun player as we all know too well.... They were hardly over compensated for the players they did lose. They arent afraid to take average compensation/average picks and go to the well again to make something of it.
2010 - Wallis and Libba F/s and Hill rookie. Yes lucky 2 get 2 x f/s's but they didnt get anything else that draft so not a massive free hit.
2011 - Smith with a pick in the teens, Dalhaus as a rookie and Dickson as a late pick
2012 - Stringer, McCrae(Ward compo), Hrovat(Lake pick), Hunter, Johannison as a rookie
2013 - Bontempelli,
2014 - Daniel, Lin Jon and redpath both rookie upgrades.
Theyve picked up a fair few of their core players during this period that we are blaming for our current position. Its not just luck bc of 2 father son picks. Libba and Wallis came in the same draft, so you could say they got 1 free top pick there, big deal.
Overall I dont buy it, its rubbish, better to man up and say yep we just stuffed up rather than continually make excuses and blaming our position on outside forces or the oppositions position on luck.
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
They also lost higgins and Cooney for next to nothing and werent afraid to trade out griff - theyre scared to get rid of their best players.
there was no need to go moneyball crazy like we have and continue to do, just takes up spots on our list - who knows how many shorts and castagnas we've missed out on simply bc we didnt give them a go instead going down the moneyball path
Higgins had not contributed much due to injury for several years. They knew Cooney was finished because of his knee (just look at his Essendon form). Griff asked to leave so they didn't have much choice and because they wanted Boyd, found a way to satisfy a player who was finished and at the same time satisfy GWS with a trade.
I do agree whole heartedly with the moneyball issue. We really went overboard with it to the detriment of bringing young talent in. Combine that with us finishing mid table and out of the top 10 picks repeatedly has hurt us so much.
The one really poor decision in the draft was to ignore Heppell. He was there to be picked and we went with someone that nobody rated in the top 20. To me, that was worse than Tambling-Franklin because many "experts" had Tambling as the top pick in the 2004 draft. At the same time, Franklin's psych profile remains one of the worst ever recorded according to people that I know who made the software for the profiling.
Just goes to show talent spotting is not an exact science and just sometimes you have to go "with your gut" and not with just statistics.
Ok, was lake finished too? Ward? Hill? You're really going to justify every single one of them?
and would people be happy with pick 37 for Lids bc his achilles is stuffed? This place would melt down. Regardless of what you think of Cooney's knee, letting a former brownlow medalist go for pick 37 shows guts. Could you imagine our club doing the same?
WB also lost Lake, Ward, Hill during that time. Yes they got a top 6 pick for Ward as compensation but that doesnt equate to guaranteed gun player as we all know too well.... They were hardly over compensated for the players they did lose. They arent afraid to take average compensation/average picks and go to the well again to make something of it.
2010 - Wallis and Libba F/s and Hill rookie. Yes lucky 2 get 2 x f/s's but they didnt get anything else that draft so not a massive free hit.
2011 - Smith with a pick in the teens, Dalhaus as a rookie and Dickson as a late pick
2012 - Stringer, McCrae(Ward compo), Hrovat(Lake pick), Hunter, Johannison as a rookie
2013 - Bontempelli,
2014 - Daniel, Lin Jon and redpath both rookie upgrades.
Theyve picked up a fair few of their core players during this period that we are blaming for our current position. Its not just luck bc of 2 father son picks. Libba and Wallis came in the same draft, so you could say they got 1 free top pick there, big deal.
Overall I dont buy it, its rubbish, better to man up and say yep we just stuffed up rather than continually make excuses and blaming our position on outside forces or the oppositions position on luck.
It only takes 4 good players and it transforms their side. Take out those guys (Bont, Stringer, Libba and MacCrae) and I would say they become a very average side. As with Cooney, they knew he was finished and I know that for a fact through medical colleagues. So there was no bravery there.
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Take out rance martin lids jack and Richmond is not much chop either.
The doggies at least rebuild/tanked properly it seems.
Boyd was brave and will pay off on the long term.
As opposed to the stable Richmond love affair with 9th, list cloggers and STABLITY.
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Take out rance martin lids jack and Richmond is not much chop either.
The doggies at least rebuild/tanked properly it seems.
Boyd was brave and will pay off on the long term.
As opposed to the stable Richmond love affair with 9th, list cloggers and STABLITY.
That's not what I'm indicating. I'm saying they bottomed out after us and that worked out much better for them. We bottomed out at the worst possible time. We should have stayed low and built up the youth more.
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Or top four, isn't
Jack an cotch aren't that good.
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Take out rance martin lids jack and Richmond is not much chop either.
The doggies at least rebuild/tanked properly it seems.
Boyd was brave and will pay off on the long term.
As opposed to the stable Richmond love affair with 9th, list cloggers and STABLITY.
That's not what I'm indicating. I'm saying they bottomed out after us and that worked out much better for them. We bottomed out at the worst possible time. We should have stayed low and built up the youth more.
Heppel for conca and some non squib for b Ellis and would you still say that?
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
They also lost higgins and Cooney for next to nothing and werent afraid to trade out griff - theyre scared to get rid of their best players.
there was no need to go moneyball crazy like we have and continue to do, just takes up spots on our list - who knows how many shorts and castagnas we've missed out on simply bc we didnt give them a go instead going down the moneyball path
Higgins had not contributed much due to injury for several years. They knew Cooney was finished because of his knee (just look at his Essendon form). Griff asked to leave so they didn't have much choice and because they wanted Boyd, found a way to satisfy a player who was finished and at the same time satisfy GWS with a trade.
I do agree whole heartedly with the moneyball issue. We really went overboard with it to the detriment of bringing young talent in. Combine that with us finishing mid table and out of the top 10 picks repeatedly has hurt us so much.
The one really poor decision in the draft was to ignore Heppell. He was there to be picked and we went with someone that nobody rated in the top 20. To me, that was worse than Tambling-Franklin because many "experts" had Tambling as the top pick in the 2004 draft. At the same time, Franklin's psych profile remains one of the worst ever recorded according to people that I know who made the software for the profiling.
Just goes to show talent spotting is not an exact science and just sometimes you have to go "with your gut" and not with just statistics.
Ok, was lake finished too? Ward? Hill? You're really going to justify every single one of them?
and would people be happy with pick 37 for Lids bc his achilles is stuffed? This place would melt down. Regardless of what you think of Cooney's knee, letting a former brownlow medalist go for pick 37 shows guts. Could you imagine our club doing the same?
WB also lost Lake, Ward, Hill during that time. Yes they got a top 6 pick for Ward as compensation but that doesnt equate to guaranteed gun player as we all know too well.... They were hardly over compensated for the players they did lose. They arent afraid to take average compensation/average picks and go to the well again to make something of it.
2010 - Wallis and Libba F/s and Hill rookie. Yes lucky 2 get 2 x f/s's but they didnt get anything else that draft so not a massive free hit.
2011 - Smith with a pick in the teens, Dalhaus as a rookie and Dickson as a late pick
2012 - Stringer, McCrae(Ward compo), Hrovat(Lake pick), Hunter, Johannison as a rookie
2013 - Bontempelli,
2014 - Daniel, Lin Jon and redpath both rookie upgrades.
Theyve picked up a fair few of their core players during this period that we are blaming for our current position. Its not just luck bc of 2 father son picks. Libba and Wallis came in the same draft, so you could say they got 1 free top pick there, big deal.
Overall I dont buy it, its rubbish, better to man up and say yep we just stuffed up rather than continually make excuses and blaming our position on outside forces or the oppositions position on luck.
It only takes 4 good players and it transforms their side. Take out those guys (Bont, Stringer, Libba and MacCrae) and I would say they become a very average side. As with Cooney, they knew he was finished and I know that for a fact through medical colleagues. So there was no bravery there.
Thats a very simplistic and naive way of looking at it - its not as if they were given a free hit with 4 top players, they still wouldve drafted 1st rounders anyway, so Im not sure why you are making out as if they luckily fell into their lap. At best they received 1 extra ie wallis and libba f/s in the same year. They earnt stringer and mcrae by losing ward and where they finished. The respective rebuilds started pretty similarly, difference being they werent scared to take a few hits along the way whereas our club reckons the fans wouldnt have stood for us doing the same so we went half arsed.
Oh yeah, Cooney is still playing by the way
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They were discussing on SEN yesterday morning that the expansion clubs should have at least 9 of the top 20 picks in this years draft and depending on the number of players to leave, this could end up being 13 of the top 20 picks.
Something fundamentally wrong with the system
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Just goes to show talent spotting is not an exact science and just sometimes you have to go "with your gut" and not with just statistics.
Yet you still lament the drafting of Conca?
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Thats a very simplistic and naive way of looking at it - its not as if they were given a free hit with 4 top players, they still wouldve drafted 1st rounders anyway, so Im not sure why you are making out as if they luckily fell into their lap. At best they received 1 extra ie wallis and libba f/s in the same year. They earnt stringer and mcrae by losing ward and where they finished. The respective rebuilds started pretty similarly, difference being they werent scared to take a few hits along the way whereas our club reckons the fans wouldnt have stood for us doing the same so we went half arsed.
Oh yeah, Cooney is still playing by the way
We stuffed it no debating that BUT to compare us to Bulldogs isn't fair. I think YBB is probably going a bit too far but I think his point is valid. Also, the dogs were "contenders" in 2010 so they still had/have a core of handy players laying around and were smart to get rid of some of the others. Out of curiousity, what is your opinion on trading Deledio?
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They were discussing on SEN yesterday morning that the expansion clubs should have at least 9 of the top 20 picks in this years draft and depending on the number of players to leave, this could end up being 13 of the top 20 picks.
Something fundamentally wrong with the system
And losing 100s million dollars per year
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
They also lost higgins and Cooney for next to nothing and werent afraid to trade out griff - theyre scared to get rid of their best players.
there was no need to go moneyball crazy like we have and continue to do, just takes up spots on our list - who knows how many shorts and castagnas we've missed out on simply bc we didnt give them a go instead going down the moneyball path
Higgins had not contributed much due to injury for several years. They knew Cooney was finished because of his knee (just look at his Essendon form). Griff asked to leave so they didn't have much choice and because they wanted Boyd, found a way to satisfy a player who was finished and at the same time satisfy GWS with a trade.
I do agree whole heartedly with the moneyball issue. We really went overboard with it to the detriment of bringing young talent in. Combine that with us finishing mid table and out of the top 10 picks repeatedly has hurt us so much.
The one really poor decision in the draft was to ignore Heppell. He was there to be picked and we went with someone that nobody rated in the top 20. To me, that was worse than Tambling-Franklin because many "experts" had Tambling as the top pick in the 2004 draft. At the same time, Franklin's psych profile remains one of the worst ever recorded according to people that I know who made the software for the profiling.
Just goes to show talent spotting is not an exact science and just sometimes you have to go "with your gut" and not with just statistics.
Ok, was lake finished too? Ward? Hill? You're really going to justify every single one of them?
and would people be happy with pick 37 for Lids bc his achilles is stuffed? This place would melt down. Regardless of what you think of Cooney's knee, letting a former brownlow medalist go for pick 37 shows guts. Could you imagine our club doing the same?
WB also lost Lake, Ward, Hill during that time. Yes they got a top 6 pick for Ward as compensation but that doesnt equate to guaranteed gun player as we all know too well.... They were hardly over compensated for the players they did lose. They arent afraid to take average compensation/average picks and go to the well again to make something of it.
2010 - Wallis and Libba F/s and Hill rookie. Yes lucky 2 get 2 x f/s's but they didnt get anything else that draft so not a massive free hit.
2011 - Smith with a pick in the teens, Dalhaus as a rookie and Dickson as a late pick
2012 - Stringer, McCrae(Ward compo), Hrovat(Lake pick), Hunter, Johannison as a rookie
2013 - Bontempelli,
2014 - Daniel, Lin Jon and redpath both rookie upgrades.
Theyve picked up a fair few of their core players during this period that we are blaming for our current position. Its not just luck bc of 2 father son picks. Libba and Wallis came in the same draft, so you could say they got 1 free top pick there, big deal.
Overall I dont buy it, its rubbish, better to man up and say yep we just stuffed up rather than continually make excuses and blaming our position on outside forces or the oppositions position on luck.
It only takes 4 good players and it transforms their side. Take out those guys (Bont, Stringer, Libba and MacCrae) and I would say they become a very average side. As with Cooney, they knew he was finished and I know that for a fact through medical colleagues. So there was no bravery there.
Thats a very simplistic and naive way of looking at it - its not as if they were given a free hit with 4 top players, they still wouldve drafted 1st rounders anyway, so Im not sure why you are making out as if they luckily fell into their lap. At best they received 1 extra ie wallis and libba f/s in the same year. They earnt stringer and mcrae by losing ward and where they finished. The respective rebuilds started pretty similarly, difference being they werent scared to take a few hits along the way whereas our club reckons the fans wouldnt have stood for us doing the same so we went half arsed.
Oh yeah, Cooney is still playing by the way
In 2010 we came second last, WB were TOP 4. They then took a plunge down the ladder and in just 2 years were BOTTOM 4. By 2012, the expansion sides draft concessions had lessened.They are the facts. When we bottomed out we had to deal with the worst of the concessions. That is also a fact.
I'm not sure what you are disputing. Had we bottomed out 2 years later, we would have been in a far better position with regards to talent to pick.
That is pretty obvious I would have thought. It was worsened by the fact that we picked Conca over Heppell.
And to Yeahright, Conca over Heppell defied all logic - gut AND science. Everyone had said Heppell would be picked before Conca.
And Cooney....well he's still running around but he has hardly played a good game since they got rid of him which proves my point. Yes, he is a Brownlow medal winner but that happened 8 years ago and in footy that's a long time.
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Thats a very simplistic and naive way of looking at it - its not as if they were given a free hit with 4 top players, they still wouldve drafted 1st rounders anyway, so Im not sure why you are making out as if they luckily fell into their lap. At best they received 1 extra ie wallis and libba f/s in the same year. They earnt stringer and mcrae by losing ward and where they finished. The respective rebuilds started pretty similarly, difference being they werent scared to take a few hits along the way whereas our club reckons the fans wouldnt have stood for us doing the same so we went half arsed.
Oh yeah, Cooney is still playing by the way
We stuffed it no debating that BUT to compare us to Bulldogs isn't fair. I think YBB is probably going a bit too far but I think his point is valid. Also, the dogs were "contenders" in 2010 so they still had/have a core of handy players laying around and were smart to get rid of some of the others. Out of curiousity, what is your opinion on trading Deledio?
absolutely I'd do it.
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
They also lost higgins and Cooney for next to nothing and werent afraid to trade out griff - theyre scared to get rid of their best players.
there was no need to go moneyball crazy like we have and continue to do, just takes up spots on our list - who knows how many shorts and castagnas we've missed out on simply bc we didnt give them a go instead going down the moneyball path
Higgins had not contributed much due to injury for several years. They knew Cooney was finished because of his knee (just look at his Essendon form). Griff asked to leave so they didn't have much choice and because they wanted Boyd, found a way to satisfy a player who was finished and at the same time satisfy GWS with a trade.
I do agree whole heartedly with the moneyball issue. We really went overboard with it to the detriment of bringing young talent in. Combine that with us finishing mid table and out of the top 10 picks repeatedly has hurt us so much.
The one really poor decision in the draft was to ignore Heppell. He was there to be picked and we went with someone that nobody rated in the top 20. To me, that was worse than Tambling-Franklin because many "experts" had Tambling as the top pick in the 2004 draft. At the same time, Franklin's psych profile remains one of the worst ever recorded according to people that I know who made the software for the profiling.
Just goes to show talent spotting is not an exact science and just sometimes you have to go "with your gut" and not with just statistics.
Ok, was lake finished too? Ward? Hill? You're really going to justify every single one of them?
and would people be happy with pick 37 for Lids bc his achilles is stuffed? This place would melt down. Regardless of what you think of Cooney's knee, letting a former brownlow medalist go for pick 37 shows guts. Could you imagine our club doing the same?
WB also lost Lake, Ward, Hill during that time. Yes they got a top 6 pick for Ward as compensation but that doesnt equate to guaranteed gun player as we all know too well.... They were hardly over compensated for the players they did lose. They arent afraid to take average compensation/average picks and go to the well again to make something of it.
2010 - Wallis and Libba F/s and Hill rookie. Yes lucky 2 get 2 x f/s's but they didnt get anything else that draft so not a massive free hit.
2011 - Smith with a pick in the teens, Dalhaus as a rookie and Dickson as a late pick
2012 - Stringer, McCrae(Ward compo), Hrovat(Lake pick), Hunter, Johannison as a rookie
2013 - Bontempelli,
2014 - Daniel, Lin Jon and redpath both rookie upgrades.
Theyve picked up a fair few of their core players during this period that we are blaming for our current position. Its not just luck bc of 2 father son picks. Libba and Wallis came in the same draft, so you could say they got 1 free top pick there, big deal.
Overall I dont buy it, its rubbish, better to man up and say yep we just stuffed up rather than continually make excuses and blaming our position on outside forces or the oppositions position on luck.
It only takes 4 good players and it transforms their side. Take out those guys (Bont, Stringer, Libba and MacCrae) and I would say they become a very average side. As with Cooney, they knew he was finished and I know that for a fact through medical colleagues. So there was no bravery there.
Thats a very simplistic and naive way of looking at it - its not as if they were given a free hit with 4 top players, they still wouldve drafted 1st rounders anyway, so Im not sure why you are making out as if they luckily fell into their lap. At best they received 1 extra ie wallis and libba f/s in the same year. They earnt stringer and mcrae by losing ward and where they finished. The respective rebuilds started pretty similarly, difference being they werent scared to take a few hits along the way whereas our club reckons the fans wouldnt have stood for us doing the same so we went half arsed.
Oh yeah, Cooney is still playing by the way
In 2010 we came second last, WB were TOP 4. They then took a plunge down the ladder and in just 2 years were BOTTOM 4. By 2012, the expansion sides draft concessions had lessened.They are the facts. When we bottomed out we had to deal with the worst of the concessions. That is also a fact.
I'm not sure what you are disputing. Had we bottomed out 2 years later, we would have been in a far better position with regards to talent to pick.
That is pretty obvious I would have thought. It was worsened by the fact that we picked Conca over Heppell.
And to Yeahright, Conca over Heppell defied all logic - gut AND science. Everyone had said Heppell would be picked before Conca.
And Cooney....well he's still running around but he has hardly played a good game since they got rid of him which proves my point. Yes, he is a Brownlow medal winner but that happened 8 years ago and in footy that's a long time.
Even worse that in 2010 they were top 4 and still managed to strip back the list, lose Griff, Cooney, Higgins, lake & Hill, rebuild and rebound past us with a shedload more talent than what we have. Regardless of how you want to spin it, its obvious - we have a problem houston!
You still dont stuffing get it, its not the lack of top end talent in those 2 years that has put us where we are, its filling up list spots with moneyball instead of kids. As I asked earlier, how many potential castagnas/shorts etc have we missed out on bc of this strategy?
Cooney is playing poo bc he doesnt care, he still has his pace, he just doesnt care and is playing for the paycheck.
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
They also lost higgins and Cooney for next to nothing and werent afraid to trade out griff - theyre scared to get rid of their best players.
there was no need to go moneyball crazy like we have and continue to do, just takes up spots on our list - who knows how many shorts and castagnas we've missed out on simply bc we didnt give them a go instead going down the moneyball path
Higgins had not contributed much due to injury for several years. They knew Cooney was finished because of his knee (just look at his Essendon form). Griff asked to leave so they didn't have much choice and because they wanted Boyd, found a way to satisfy a player who was finished and at the same time satisfy GWS with a trade.
I do agree whole heartedly with the moneyball issue. We really went overboard with it to the detriment of bringing young talent in. Combine that with us finishing mid table and out of the top 10 picks repeatedly has hurt us so much.
The one really poor decision in the draft was to ignore Heppell. He was there to be picked and we went with someone that nobody rated in the top 20. To me, that was worse than Tambling-Franklin because many "experts" had Tambling as the top pick in the 2004 draft. At the same time, Franklin's psych profile remains one of the worst ever recorded according to people that I know who made the software for the profiling.
Just goes to show talent spotting is not an exact science and just sometimes you have to go "with your gut" and not with just statistics.
Ok, was lake finished too? Ward? Hill? You're really going to justify every single one of them?
and would people be happy with pick 37 for Lids bc his achilles is stuffed? This place would melt down. Regardless of what you think of Cooney's knee, letting a former brownlow medalist go for pick 37 shows guts. Could you imagine our club doing the same?
WB also lost Lake, Ward, Hill during that time. Yes they got a top 6 pick for Ward as compensation but that doesnt equate to guaranteed gun player as we all know too well.... They were hardly over compensated for the players they did lose. They arent afraid to take average compensation/average picks and go to the well again to make something of it.
2010 - Wallis and Libba F/s and Hill rookie. Yes lucky 2 get 2 x f/s's but they didnt get anything else that draft so not a massive free hit.
2011 - Smith with a pick in the teens, Dalhaus as a rookie and Dickson as a late pick
2012 - Stringer, McCrae(Ward compo), Hrovat(Lake pick), Hunter, Johannison as a rookie
2013 - Bontempelli,
2014 - Daniel, Lin Jon and redpath both rookie upgrades.
Theyve picked up a fair few of their core players during this period that we are blaming for our current position. Its not just luck bc of 2 father son picks. Libba and Wallis came in the same draft, so you could say they got 1 free top pick there, big deal.
Overall I dont buy it, its rubbish, better to man up and say yep we just stuffed up rather than continually make excuses and blaming our position on outside forces or the oppositions position on luck.
It only takes 4 good players and it transforms their side. Take out those guys (Bont, Stringer, Libba and MacCrae) and I would say they become a very average side. As with Cooney, they knew he was finished and I know that for a fact through medical colleagues. So there was no bravery there.
Thats a very simplistic and naive way of looking at it - its not as if they were given a free hit with 4 top players, they still wouldve drafted 1st rounders anyway, so Im not sure why you are making out as if they luckily fell into their lap. At best they received 1 extra ie wallis and libba f/s in the same year. They earnt stringer and mcrae by losing ward and where they finished. The respective rebuilds started pretty similarly, difference being they werent scared to take a few hits along the way whereas our club reckons the fans wouldnt have stood for us doing the same so we went half arsed.
Oh yeah, Cooney is still playing by the way
In 2010 we came second last, WB were TOP 4. They then took a plunge down the ladder and in just 2 years were BOTTOM 4. By 2012, the expansion sides draft concessions had lessened.They are the facts. When we bottomed out we had to deal with the worst of the concessions. That is also a fact.
I'm not sure what you are disputing. Had we bottomed out 2 years later, we would have been in a far better position with regards to talent to pick.
That is pretty obvious I would have thought. It was worsened by the fact that we picked Conca over Heppell.
And to Yeahright, Conca over Heppell defied all logic - gut AND science. Everyone had said Heppell would be picked before Conca.
And Cooney....well he's still running around but he has hardly played a good game since they got rid of him which proves my point. Yes, he is a Brownlow medal winner but that happened 8 years ago and in footy that's a long time.
Even worse that in 2010 they were top 4 and still managed to strip back the list, lose Griff, Cooney, Higgins, lake & Hill, rebuild and rebound past us with a shedload more talent than what we have. Regardless of how you want to spin it, its obvious - we have a problem houston!
You still dont stuffing get it, its not the lack of top end talent in those 2 years that has put us where we are, its filling up list spots with moneyball instead of kids. As I asked earlier, how many potential castagnas/shorts etc have we missed out on bc of this strategy?
Cooney is playing poo bc he doesnt care, he still has his pace, he just doesnt care and is playing for the paycheck.
Hmmm has anyone considered the compromised drafts
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hmmm, didnt seem to hurt the bulldogs...
Bottomed out later and had 3 father sons under the old rule. Libba, Wallis and Hunter all would have gone higher. Jake Stringer, MacCrae and Bontempelli plus those guys have given them heaps of equivalent "first rounders" and top ten picks.
They also lost higgins and Cooney for next to nothing and werent afraid to trade out griff - theyre scared to get rid of their best players.
there was no need to go moneyball crazy like we have and continue to do, just takes up spots on our list - who knows how many shorts and castagnas we've missed out on simply bc we didnt give them a go instead going down the moneyball path
Higgins had not contributed much due to injury for several years. They knew Cooney was finished because of his knee (just look at his Essendon form). Griff asked to leave so they didn't have much choice and because they wanted Boyd, found a way to satisfy a player who was finished and at the same time satisfy GWS with a trade.
I do agree whole heartedly with the moneyball issue. We really went overboard with it to the detriment of bringing young talent in. Combine that with us finishing mid table and out of the top 10 picks repeatedly has hurt us so much.
The one really poor decision in the draft was to ignore Heppell. He was there to be picked and we went with someone that nobody rated in the top 20. To me, that was worse than Tambling-Franklin because many "experts" had Tambling as the top pick in the 2004 draft. At the same time, Franklin's psych profile remains one of the worst ever recorded according to people that I know who made the software for the profiling.
Just goes to show talent spotting is not an exact science and just sometimes you have to go "with your gut" and not with just statistics.
Ok, was lake finished too? Ward? Hill? You're really going to justify every single one of them?
and would people be happy with pick 37 for Lids bc his achilles is stuffed? This place would melt down. Regardless of what you think of Cooney's knee, letting a former brownlow medalist go for pick 37 shows guts. Could you imagine our club doing the same?
WB also lost Lake, Ward, Hill during that time. Yes they got a top 6 pick for Ward as compensation but that doesnt equate to guaranteed gun player as we all know too well.... They were hardly over compensated for the players they did lose. They arent afraid to take average compensation/average picks and go to the well again to make something of it.
2010 - Wallis and Libba F/s and Hill rookie. Yes lucky 2 get 2 x f/s's but they didnt get anything else that draft so not a massive free hit.
2011 - Smith with a pick in the teens, Dalhaus as a rookie and Dickson as a late pick
2012 - Stringer, McCrae(Ward compo), Hrovat(Lake pick), Hunter, Johannison as a rookie
2013 - Bontempelli,
2014 - Daniel, Lin Jon and redpath both rookie upgrades.
Theyve picked up a fair few of their core players during this period that we are blaming for our current position. Its not just luck bc of 2 father son picks. Libba and Wallis came in the same draft, so you could say they got 1 free top pick there, big deal.
Overall I dont buy it, its rubbish, better to man up and say yep we just stuffed up rather than continually make excuses and blaming our position on outside forces or the oppositions position on luck.
It only takes 4 good players and it transforms their side. Take out those guys (Bont, Stringer, Libba and MacCrae) and I would say they become a very average side. As with Cooney, they knew he was finished and I know that for a fact through medical colleagues. So there was no bravery there.
Thats a very simplistic and naive way of looking at it - its not as if they were given a free hit with 4 top players, they still wouldve drafted 1st rounders anyway, so Im not sure why you are making out as if they luckily fell into their lap. At best they received 1 extra ie wallis and libba f/s in the same year. They earnt stringer and mcrae by losing ward and where they finished. The respective rebuilds started pretty similarly, difference being they werent scared to take a few hits along the way whereas our club reckons the fans wouldnt have stood for us doing the same so we went half arsed.
Oh yeah, Cooney is still playing by the way
In 2010 we came second last, WB were TOP 4. They then took a plunge down the ladder and in just 2 years were BOTTOM 4. By 2012, the expansion sides draft concessions had lessened.They are the facts. When we bottomed out we had to deal with the worst of the concessions. That is also a fact.
I'm not sure what you are disputing. Had we bottomed out 2 years later, we would have been in a far better position with regards to talent to pick.
That is pretty obvious I would have thought. It was worsened by the fact that we picked Conca over Heppell.
And to Yeahright, Conca over Heppell defied all logic - gut AND science. Everyone had said Heppell would be picked before Conca.
And Cooney....well he's still running around but he has hardly played a good game since they got rid of him which proves my point. Yes, he is a Brownlow medal winner but that happened 8 years ago and in footy that's a long time.
Even worse that in 2010 they were top 4 and still managed to strip back the list, lose Griff, Cooney, Higgins, lake & Hill, rebuild and rebound past us with a shedload more talent than what we have. Regardless of how you want to spin it, its obvious - we have a problem houston!
You still dont stuffing get it, its not the lack of top end talent in those 2 years that has put us where we are, its filling up list spots with moneyball instead of kids. As I asked earlier, how many potential castagnas/shorts etc have we missed out on bc of this strategy?
Cooney is playing poo bc he doesnt care, he still has his pace, he just doesnt care and is playing for the paycheck.
You obviously can't read or refuse to read what I posted. What did I write about moneyball in my first post?
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Just go to sleep, you're either purposely missing the big picture of the debate,or your comprehension skills are deplorable.
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Just go to sleep, you're either purposely missing the big picture of the debate,or your comprehension skills are deplorable.
As I thought. Refuses to answer a simple question.
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Just go to sleep, you're either purposely missing the big picture of the debate,or your comprehension skills are deplorable.
As I thought. Refuses to answer a simple question.
Pot
Kettle
Black
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Just go to sleep, you're either purposely missing the big picture of the debate,or your comprehension skills are deplorable.
As I thought. Refuses to answer a simple question.
Pot
Kettle
Black
What question haven't I answered?
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Thats a very simplistic and naive way of looking at it - its not as if they were given a free hit with 4 top players, they still wouldve drafted 1st rounders anyway, so Im not sure why you are making out as if they luckily fell into their lap. At best they received 1 extra ie wallis and libba f/s in the same year. They earnt stringer and mcrae by losing ward and where they finished. The respective rebuilds started pretty similarly, difference being they werent scared to take a few hits along the way whereas our club reckons the fans wouldnt have stood for us doing the same so we went half arsed.
Oh yeah, Cooney is still playing by the way
We stuffed it no debating that BUT to compare us to Bulldogs isn't fair. I think YBB is probably going a bit too far but I think his point is valid. Also, the dogs were "contenders" in 2010 so they still had/have a core of handy players laying around and were smart to get rid of some of the others. Out of curiousity, what is your opinion on trading Deledio?
absolutely I'd do it.
I was under the impression you were in the keep camp but I stand corrected
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Thats a very simplistic and naive way of looking at it - its not as if they were given a free hit with 4 top players, they still wouldve drafted 1st rounders anyway, so Im not sure why you are making out as if they luckily fell into their lap. At best they received 1 extra ie wallis and libba f/s in the same year. They earnt stringer and mcrae by losing ward and where they finished. The respective rebuilds started pretty similarly, difference being they werent scared to take a few hits along the way whereas our club reckons the fans wouldnt have stood for us doing the same so we went half arsed.
Oh yeah, Cooney is still playing by the way
We stuffed it no debating that BUT to compare us to Bulldogs isn't fair. I think YBB is probably going a bit too far but I think his point is valid. Also, the dogs were "contenders" in 2010 so they still had/have a core of handy players laying around and were smart to get rid of some of the others. Out of curiousity, what is your opinion on trading Deledio?
absolutely I'd do it.
I was under the impression you were in the keep camp but I stand corrected
You'd trade him for a packet of tim tams
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Would you? I thought you wanted to keep him
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Surely it depends what's on the table as opposed to your opinion polls
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Surely it depends what's on the table as opposed to your opinion polls
Way to take things out of context. But what more should we expect ey?
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I apologise for steering the conversation widely off track
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I apologise for steering the conversation widely off track
Apology accepted. ILY