One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on June 09, 2010, 05:22:39 AM
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I couldn't find this on the web so I scanned it in. According to this we're getting a 2nd round PP.
Richmond's 50m kick in the guts
By Jon Ralph
Wed 9 June 2010, Page 85
IT IS the ultimate irony: Jordan McMahon's greatest moment seems to have consigned Richmond to even more draft pain.
McMahon's post-siren 50m winner against Melbourne in Round 17 last year not only gave the Demons a bonus priority pick, it robbed the Tigers of their own extra selection.
It meant the Tigers won five games, one too many to qualify for a priority pick after the first round of the national draft.
Richmond could have used that bonus late-teens selection on players such as Fremantle's Nathan Fyfe, Hawthorn's Ben Stratton or Melbourne's Luke Tapscott.
But the greater loss will be felt at this year's national draft table.
Halfway through the season the Tigers have only one victory and look remote odds to win more than four games this year. Two years in a row of four or fewer wins gives clubs a pre-draft priority pick -- normally the first selection in the national draft.
The introduction of the Gold Coast means the new club gets picks 1, 2, 3, 5, 7 and 9. But Richmond would still have landed a priority pick at selection four, then their first pick at No. 6.
It would have been the ideal platform to take two quality picks in a climate in which few other clubs will get a lick of the cream.
It would also have seen the unprecedented situation in which two clubs took the first seven picks of the draft, with the second-bottom side getting only pick eight.
Instead, the Tigers will receive pick four, then a post-draft pick that will probably be selection 27, then their normal second-round pick (No. 28).
In hindsight, installing caretaker coach Jade Rawlings, who notched three wins, also hurt the club's draft order, though with Terry Wallace resigning it had no other choice.
That McMahon goal, set up by another Tigers whipping boy in Richard Tambling, would in theory also have given Melbourne five wins for the year, robbing them of No. 2 pick Jack Trengove.
But Melbourne beat Fremantle later in the season, aware that victory would not ruin its draft plans.
The sceptics who accused the Demons of tanking believe there is no way Melbourne would have won against the Dockers had Trengove's recruitment been on the line.
Richmond is recruiting in the worst climate to rebuild a club, but so far seems to have made a decent fist of it.
The Tigers will get a very good player at pick No. 4, but the draft would have been even sweeter had McMahon's kick sailed wide.
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Honestly, whats the point of dragging all this up again? This argument has been done to death! Must be a quiet news week ralphy!
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What a disgraceful article, we'd already lost our priority pick by beating Essendon the week before
McMahon's goal was what allowed Melbourne to go into the Freo game knowing that it could win and still get picks 1 & 2
Check your facts Jon Ralph you moron
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Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal and we should have tanked last season and been in line for pick 4 and 6 in a good draft. Only idiots believe otherwise. This winning culture theory under both Frawley and Wallace is was and always will be bulldust.
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Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal...........
Why don't you explain why McMahon should have missed the goal then?
If you win more than 4 games you are ineligible for a priority pick. When McMahon lined up we had already won 4 games plus had a draw. Kicking the goal made no difference to us getting a priority pick.
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Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal...........
Why don't you explain why McMahon should have missed the goal then?
If you win more than 4 games you are ineligible for a priority pick. When McMahon lined up we had already won 4 games plus had a draw. Kicking the goal made no difference to us getting a priority pick.
1) Melbourne would have had an extra 4 points for there season tally. 2) If you read my post, I said we should have tanked the season, instead we told Rawlings to go win games FFS! 3) If we had tanked like we should have we would have had picks 4 and 6 at the end of this season and given ourselves some hope of finding a couple of gun juniors- maybe a Darling and a Gaff as a combo or a Day Gaff combo. Now we will only get one of the two. Winning meaningless games like lasts years effort v Melbourne (as an example) has been detrimental to us as a club and left the club mired on the bottom year after year.
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1) Melbourne would have had an extra 4 points for there season tally.
Yeah, right. So, we should tank on behalf of other clubs.
If that's your answer as to why McMahon should have missed the goal then you have a gall calling anyone an idiot. Which you did.
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Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal and we should have tanked last season and been in line for pick 4 and 6 in a good draft. Only idiots believe otherwise. This winning culture theory under both Frawley and Wallace is was and always will be bulldust.
There are other ways to build your list Ramps.
We'll have to find another way over the next 2-3 years to build the list without tanking.
If you honestly believe a coach can tell his squad that is littered with early 30 year olds, playing for their careers (Coughlan, Brown, Tuck etc) to throw games and tank for draft picks that the club can't even get right anyway, your dreaming.
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Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal and we should have tanked last season and been in line for pick 4 and 6 in a good draft. Only idiots believe otherwise. This winning culture theory under both Frawley and Wallace is was and always will be bulldust.
There are other ways to build your list Ramps.
We'll have to find another way over the next 2-3 years to build the list without tanking.
If you honestly believe a coach can tell his squad that is littered with early 30 year olds, playing for their careers (Coughlan, Brown, Tuck etc) to throw games and tank for draft picks that the club can't even get right anyway, your dreaming.
never said the coach should ask players to fix matches, just ensure a mix of positions to develop players that would in effect make it more difficult to win games. anyway its over, we paid the price again, now time to move on.
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we just have to tank for another season and a half, 2011 draft is even more talent laden than this one, :rollin
picks 4 and 6 next season will set us up for the future
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Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal and we should have tanked last season and been in line for pick 4 and 6 in a good draft. Only idiots believe otherwise. This winning culture theory under both Frawley and Wallace is was and always will be bulldust.
There are other ways to build your list Ramps.
We'll have to find another way over the next 2-3 years to build the list without tanking.
If you honestly believe a coach can tell his squad that is littered with early 30 year olds, playing for their careers (Coughlan, Brown, Tuck etc) to throw games and tank for draft picks that the club can't even get right anyway, your dreaming.
Exactly pope! Sydney won a flag and played in gf's, how many no.1's do they have in their list?
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Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal and we should have tanked last season and been in line for pick 4 and 6 in a good draft. Only idiots believe otherwise. This winning culture theory under both Frawley and Wallace is was and always will be bulldust.
There are other ways to build your list Ramps.
We'll have to find another way over the next 2-3 years to build the list without tanking.
If you honestly believe a coach can tell his squad that is littered with early 30 year olds, playing for their careers (Coughlan, Brown, Tuck etc) to throw games and tank for draft picks that the club can't even get right anyway, your dreaming.
never said the coach should ask players to fix matches, just ensure a mix of positions to develop players that would in effect make it more difficult to win games. anyway its over, we paid the price again, now time to move on.
McMahon should have missed the goal
Could you please elaborate on this then?
Poor old jordie, you gotta feel for him. He got to live out every footballers childhood dream - kicking a goal after the siren to win a VFL/AFL match - and he gets critisised for it. ::)
When you talk about taking action that actually helps with the development of the players or team, even if that decreases you chances of wining - THAT IS NOT TANKING. Tanking is deliebartley losing.
When a team intentionally loses a game, or does not score as high as it can, to obtain a perceived future competitive advantage (for instance, earning a high draft pick) rather than gamblers being involved, the team is often said to have tanked
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixing
Tanking
transitive verb
to make no effort to win
intransitive verb
to lose intentionally
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tanking
So far Hardwick has put development ahead of winning, but he is not deliberately trying to lose, its just a byproduct he is willing to wear in the short term . He hasn't been tanking.
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we just have to tank for another season and a half, 2011 draft is even more talent laden than this one, :rollin
picks 4 and 6 next season will set us up for the future
I think i would have changed teams by then if we tanked for two more years.. Tanking is cowardly and i wouldn't wont to be apart of a team that dose
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Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal and we should have tanked last season and been in line for pick 4 and 6 in a good draft. Only idiots believe otherwise. This winning culture theory under both Frawley and Wallace is was and always will be bulldust.
There are other ways to build your list Ramps.
We'll have to find another way over the next 2-3 years to build the list without tanking.
If you honestly believe a coach can tell his squad that is littered with early 30 year olds, playing for their careers (Coughlan, Brown, Tuck etc) to throw games and tank for draft picks that the club can't even get right anyway, your dreaming.
Exactly pope! Sydney won a flag and played in gf's, how many no.1's do they have in their list?
Gaspar!
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who had been gone from Sydney for ten years when they won their latest premiership,
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who had been gone from Sydney for ten years when they won their latest premiership,
poo, really? what happened to him?
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drowned in a tank...I believe
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we just have to tank for another season and a half, 2011 draft is even more talent laden than this one, :rollin
picks 4 and 6 next season will set us up for the future
I think i would have changed teams by then if we tanked for two more years.. Tanking is cowardly and i wouldn't wont to be apart of a team that dose
No one is suggesting to tank for another two years, just next year
We're not tanking this year, we're genuinely crap
However if your attitude is to go and change teams, there aren't many left who haven't tanked at some stage and those that haven't will be on the downward slide soon.
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we just have to tank for another season and a half, 2011 draft is even more talent laden than this one, :rollin
picks 4 and 6 next season will set us up for the future
I think i would have changed teams by then if we tanked for two more years.. Tanking is cowardly and i wouldn't wont to be apart of a team that dose
see ya
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we just have to tank for another season and a half, 2011 draft is even more talent laden than this one, :rollin
picks 4 and 6 next season will set us up for the future
Tm ur spot on.
So let me get this right u guys would rather have finished 09 season on 5 and a half instead of 4 wins. Even at the expense of getting another gun. Give me a break. Funny thing is if it was jack r or lids who kicked the goal do you think it would get the same coverage?? The fact it was mclovin makes it worse.
2 picks inside top 6 next I'll take that anyday
I'll say this if hardwick manages to get 4 wins on the board I can almost guarantee he won't anymore morale boosting win for the year.
He has gale by his side to ensure honourable losses will persist for another 2 yrs
It was so funny all those on here calling for jade to
be signed after those wins. LMAO.
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He has gale by his side to ensure honourable losses will persist for another 2 yrs
So what you're suggesting is that Benny Gale believes in tanking and is going to encourage Harwick to stage for honourable losses for the next 18 months, which is what exactly? TANKING in an honourable fashion ???
Now that is funny
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worst moment of my life when McMahon put that ball thou.
Melbourne fans jumping with joy as the Dees lost.
stuff the AFL.
stuff Jon Ralph - hope someone kicks him in the teeth.
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Tm ur spot on.
So let me get this right u guys would rather have finished 09 season on 5 and a half instead of 4 wins. Even at the expense of getting another gun. Give me a break. Funny thing is if it was jack r or lids who kicked the goal do you think it would get the same coverage?? The fact it was mclovin makes it worse.
How many times does it need to be pointed out the McMahon had nothing to do with us getting an extra pick?
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we just have to tank for another season and a half, 2011 draft is even more talent laden than this one, :rollin
picks 4 and 6 next season will set us up for the future
Tm ur spot on.
So let me get this right u guys would rather have finished 09 season on 5 and a half instead of 4 wins. Even at the expense of getting another gun. Give me a break. Funny thing is if it was jack r or lids who kicked the goal do you think it would get the same coverage?? The fact it was mclovin makes it worse.
2 picks inside top 6 next I'll take that anyday
I'll say this if hardwick manages to get 4 wins on the board I can almost guarantee he won't anymore morale boosting win for the year.
He has gale by his side to ensure honourable losses will persist for another 2 yrs
It was so funny all those on here calling for jade to
be signed after those wins. LMAO.
Agree with u and Ramps so so much.
Even if we were not going to get a PP as we were already 4.5 wins hopefully Jordy misses and Melbourne would then assuming they beat Freo in round 20 get to 5 wins and deny them a PP. Furthermore Freo were already on 5 wind and noone would get the PP. I think most on here would agree Melbourne are a much better team going forward with Scully and Trengove as opposed to just Scully or Trengove at the Dees.
The most remote part of winning culture has not existed at Richmond since the coaching tenure of John Northey let alone under Spud and Wallet. There is more winning culture in what Dimma has taught the side than in the aforementioned two blokes tenures. Winning culture is sometimes not shown in wins it is shown in off field capacities, list management, facilities and the quality of people off the field. It may have been a win in rd 18 last yr but in the long run the price was handing an opponent another quality player in their quest of rebuilding which on field may cost us in a big game in the future a long time after this or any other post in this thread is remembered.
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Tm ur spot on.
So let me get this right u guys would rather have finished 09 season on 5 and a half instead of 4 wins. Even at the expense of getting another gun. Give me a break. Funny thing is if it was jack r or lids who kicked the goal do you think it would get the same coverage?? The fact it was mclovin makes it worse.
How many times does it need to be pointed out the McMahon had nothing to do with us getting an extra pick?
we are very clear what Mclovin has done
such a morale boosting culture winning victory has come at the expense of another possible gun in this years draft.
2 inside 6 would've been massive for us this year.
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Tm ur spot on.
So let me get this right u guys would rather have finished 09 season on 5 and a half instead of 4 wins. Even at the expense of getting another gun. Give me a break. Funny thing is if it was jack r or lids who kicked the goal do you think it would get the same coverage?? The fact it was mclovin makes it worse.
How many times does it need to be pointed out the McMahon had nothing to do with us getting an extra pick?
we are very clear what Mclovin has done
such a morale boosting culture winning victory has come at the expense of another possible gun in this years draft.
2 inside 6 would've been massive for us this year.
The only thing beating Melbourne got us was Pick 3 instead of Pick 2.
Even if Sanchez's kick went wide, we'd still only get Pick 4 this year NOT Picks 4 & 6!!! He had virtually NOTHING to do with ou draft picks last year nor this year.
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Haha! ;D
This is just like the episode of The Simpsons where Homer had to change his name to Thompson to go into federal witness protection program but just didn't get it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmsuYeztVbs
(substitute Jordie didn't cost us a draft pick for hello Mr Thompson)
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I hate tanking and everything that comes with it.
Its cowardly and weak as pee.
Taking advantage by pretending to be weak. Pathetic.
Proper recruitment and development will win improve your list and win you premierships. Not throwing away half a decade to build a side top 4 picks.
Tanking gets you off the bottom of the ladder but doesn't give your premierships.
Top 10 Picks / Premierships for the last decade.
St.Kilda: 7 top 10 picks (5 in 3 years) = 0 Flags from 1 Grand Final appearances...
Carlton: 9 top 10 picks = 0 Flags from 0 Grand Final appearances...
Hawthorn 8 top picks (5 in 2 years) = 1 Flag from Grand Final appearance.
Melbourne 7 top 10 picks = 0 Flag from 0 Grand Final appearances...
I can't be bothered looking up W.B 's and Freos but both have had there fair share of priority picks with 0 flags and 0 GF appearances.
On what grounds and facts can anyone argue that tanking, writing off seasons wins you a premiership. You'd risk membership, sponsorship, decent TV slots and prime time fixtures to tank for an additional player on the list.
When you talk about 1 little win, or one kick its simple, but to tank a whole season is diabolical. If push comes to shove in Round 22 if you kick the goal we miss out on a priority pick then you miss the goal. To say we should tank for another 2 years is lunacy.
Our list is fine and we will get our opportunity to improve it with proper resources in list management and recruiting. We don't need to "quit" our direction of developing a successful game plan and instilling confidence into the playing group. We're on the right track.
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Many would argue that our best player this year is draft pick 13. Don't need to tank to get pick 13. Just need good talent spotters.
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Haha! ;D
This is just like the episode of The Simpsons where Homer had to change his name to Thompson to go into federal witness protection program but just didn't get it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmsuYeztVbs
(substitute Jordie didn't cost us a draft pick for hello Mr Thompson)
To continue the homer anology;
Tanking is like when Homer tells Bart how to fight;
"Cry like a baby and when your opponent turns away in shame you kick him in the back."
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I hate tanking and everything that comes with it.
Its cowardly and weak as pee.
Taking advantage by pretending to be weak. Pathetic.
Proper recruitment and development will win improve your list and win you premierships. Not throwing away half a decade to build a side top 4 picks.
Tanking gets you off the bottom of the ladder but doesn't give your premierships.
Top 10 Picks / Premierships for the last decade.
St.Kilda: 7 top 10 picks (5 in 3 years) = 0 Flags from 1 Grand Final appearances...
Carlton: 9 top 10 picks = 0 Flags from 0 Grand Final appearances...
Hawthorn 8 top picks (5 in 2 years) = 1 Flag from Grand Final appearance.
Melbourne 7 top 10 picks = 0 Flag from 0 Grand Final appearances...
I can't be bothered looking up W.B 's and Freos but both have had there fair share of priority picks with 0 flags and 0 GF appearances.
On what grounds and facts can anyone argue that tanking, writing off seasons wins you a premiership. You'd risk membership, sponsorship, decent TV slots and prime time fixtures to tank for an additional player on the list.
When you talk about 1 little win, or one kick its simple, but to tank a whole season is diabolical. If push comes to shove in Round 22 if you kick the goal we miss out on a priority pick then you miss the goal. To say we should tank for another 2 years is lunacy.
Our list is fine and we will get our opportunity to improve it with proper resources in list management and recruiting. We don't need to "quit" our direction of developing a successful game plan and instilling confidence into the playing group. We're on the right track.
:thumbsup
Don't waste your breathe PL. Too many on here need their instant shot of satisfaction at the sacrifice of the cultural shift needed for real success.
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No tanking for one lousy pick. No-one respects Carlton or Melbourne for their antics. Everything they achieve will be tainted with the word tank. Personally It would feel hollow to me if we tanked and I only have a finite amount of life left so writing of years for a few draft picks that may or may not be any good is bullshyte. Take what we get and forge them into Tigers. It looks like the development side is working properly now for the first time in donkeys years. It not just about high draft picks, it is about what we do with our picks and that is being addressed finally with a good coaching/development team. :gotigers
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No tanking for one lousy pick. No-one respects Carlton or Melbourne for their antics. Everything they achieve will be tainted with the word tank. Personally It would feel hollow to me if we tanked and I only have a finite amount of life left so writing of years for a few draft picks that may or may not be any good is bullshyte. Take what we get and forge them into Tigers. It looks like the development side is working properly now for the first time in donkeys years. It not just about high draft picks, it is about what we do with our picks and that is being addressed finally with a good coaching/development team. :gotigers
:clapping
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No tanking for one lousy pick. No-one respects Carlton or Melbourne for their antics. Everything they achieve will be tainted with the word tank. Personally It would feel hollow to me if we tanked and I only have a finite amount of life left so writing of years for a few draft picks that may or may not be any good is bullshyte. Take what we get and forge them into Tigers. It looks like the development side is working properly now for the first time in donkeys years. It not just about high draft picks, it is about what we do with our picks and that is being addressed finally with a good coaching/development team. :gotigers
rubbish no one will talk about the Demons in that light. They managed their list beautifully. Its called smart.
Carlton are tainted because of their past salary cap issues but make no mistake no one apart from jealous supporters will call it tainted.
Take the Bombers premiership in 01 as an example. No one says that was tainted by rorting the salary cap now do they.
I barely hear a word about the Dees about what they did the past 2 years apart from when i come on here
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No tanking for one lousy pick. No-one respects Carlton or Melbourne for their antics. Everything they achieve will be tainted with the word tank. Personally It would feel hollow to me if we tanked and I only have a finite amount of life left so writing of years for a few draft picks that may or may not be any good is bullshyte. Take what we get and forge them into Tigers. It looks like the development side is working properly now for the first time in donkeys years. It not just about high draft picks, it is about what we do with our picks and that is being addressed finally with a good coaching/development team. :gotigers
rubbish no one will talk about the Demons in that light. They managed their list beautifully. Its called smart.
Carlton are tainted because of their past salary cap issues but make no mistake no one apart from jealous supporters will call it tainted.
Take the Bombers premiership in 01 as an example. No one says that was tainted by rorting the salary cap now do they.
I barely hear a word about the Dees about what they did the past 2 years apart from when i come on here
exactly, they cop some flak early on in the piece but then its over, carlton is now starting to play some very good football and have shown they already have one of if not the best midfield in the league, they will only get better and will challenge for a GF spot soon, melbourne have turned their list around well and will go from strength to strength still very early to be saying "i told ya so" about lack of GF appearances lol.... hakws already won one and still have a young list, saints almost won one last season and will challenge again so not sure how ppl can point to these clubs as proof that tanking doesnt improve your side considerably.... exhibit B is us LOL nuff said
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I have said once and will say it again, Richmond had nothing to gain by tanking! If we tank, we risk losing alot of members and our financial situation has been too dire to do that!
With Cotchin and martin i believe we have proven that good players still avail themelves outside the no.1 pick! We will recieve a better draft pick than 15 other clubs this year!
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I have said once and will say it again, Richmond had nothing to gain by tanking! If we tank, we risk losing alot of members and our financial situation has been too dire to do that!
With Cotchin and martin i believe we have proven that good players still avail themelves outside the no.1 pick! We will recieve a better draft pick than 15 other clubs this year!
incorrect, we'll have plenty to gain, namely getting enough top end talent on our list to play regular finals.... don't know about you massachists but I'm tired of watching our non competitive albeit 'honourable' club churn out rubbish performances year after year, its time for action, 28 years is long enough. There is no rule breaking going on here, its well within the rules so USE THEM
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since when is deliberately losing within the rules?
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St.Kilda: 7 top 10 picks (5 in 3 years) = 0 Flags from 1 Grand Final appearances...
Carlton: 9 top 10 picks = 0 Flags from 0 Grand Final appearances...
Hawthorn 8 top picks (5 in 2 years) = 1 Flag from Grand Final appearance.
Melbourne 7 top 10 picks = 0 Flag from 0 Grand Final appearances...
What a stupid way of looking at it - no offence but to say early draft pick do not win flags (i assume this is what your point is) based on the above is silly, IMHO.
Saints got very, very close to a flag. The win games by big scores of the last 5 or so years and they win many games in a row. They got very close to a flag and were only beaten by a great Geelong side. The have only lost 3 games with the best player in the team out, the prem. window is not closed.
Best players / early draft picks -> Goddard brownlow fav, Roo top 2 players in AFL, Kosi handy in younger days etc.
Carlton have only started. Murphy and Gibbs are babies, could have another 15 years. Kruzer is very young and good for a ruckman.
Melbourne have even younger high draft picks, Trengrove, Watts, Scully. 18, 20, 18.
* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.
we should have played the system but we got fcked over by it
:rollin :rollin
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Many would argue that our best player this year is draft pick 13. Don't need to tank to get pick 13. Just need good talent spotters.
Other would say out best players are Deledio, Cotchin and Martin.
pick 1, 2 and 3.
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I have said once and will say it again, Richmond had nothing to gain by tanking! If we tank, we risk losing alot of members and our financial situation has been too dire to do that!
With Cotchin and martin i believe we have proven that good players still avail themelves outside the no.1 pick! We will recieve a better draft pick than 15 other clubs this year!
lol!
no much outside the no.1 pick
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* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.
It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.
However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
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Where are Hawthorne at now? Are they suffering because they won a final earlier than they expected and it went to their head, or did they ahse that premiership and are now being shown for what they are?
Are they going up or down?
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* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.
It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.
However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
Saints went close in 2004/05 just three years after they were losing just about every week. Problem with the Saints is this their club is garbage b/c the Pres and the coach at the time were not on speaking terms and by the end of 2006 they had a new coach and the whole dynamics of the situation had shifted. It took Lyon almost 3 years to get them close and really challenging again. Without those picks they would be nowhere.
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Classic thread!
Same day different article on this board about the Tigers clearence work complete with a decent rev by Goddard with NO responses but a 3 page thread on a garbage hypothetical which was silly when it was relevant last year!
You want to be positive?
Comment on the positive article do gooders!!!
Ironic.
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* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.
It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.
However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game. Regardless the saints are in a good place and have been and bugger me i'd rather be in their position than ours over the past 10 years!
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since when is deliberately losing within the rules?
ask the afl, bc as has been mentioned thousands of times the saints, hawks, eagles, carlton and melbourne have done it, we havent and guess what? we're still on the bottom lol smell the friggen cheese its not cheating, its called list management even he idiot demitriou has said those very same words.
Let me ask you a question, we deliberately lost to the saints in rnd 22 2007 thereby getting cotchin, i was there and wallace did everything he could to lose that one in the last quarter, i guess you are filthy and extrememly dissapointed in our clb fr getting cotchin and as one of the moral police you would rather see him gone? give me a break.. the fact we are still having this idotic argument with fellow supporters just staggers me after all these years f watching those other bastard sides fly right by us.
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which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?
What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?
Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?
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which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?
What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?
Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?
Oh comeon... did you watch the melbourne carlton game for the Kruezer cup end of 07? each teams best ball users were playing wide of each other lol
Did you watch the eagles in full tank mode thepast few years until they were "told" to pull their heads in halfway through last season bc it was that blatant and then turned it on the last 7-8 weeks..
Hawks played the rebuild and list management card to perfection, continually playing kids ahead of experience even when form didnt warrant it, but importantly they got games into kids even though for the first 30 games the club knew they wouldnt win many at all which suited them just fne...
Did you see when collingwood put their players out to pasture in 2005 and got picks 2 & 5, 2 years after they played in 2 GF's in a row?
Did you see what Bailey was doing against us last season? Miller as a ruck rover, petterd as FB, Bate CHB, warnock on a wing, it was a bloody disgrace, did everything humanely possible to give his side the least chance of winning. We have never had the foresight to use the system to its advantage for a full cycle like the other sides have, in 2007 that was 1 game and for some reason we almost had the saints until a few timely interchanges from wallace put paid to that.
When Carlton were in full tank mode Did you watch how Ratten would continually bench fevola in the fnal qarter after he'd kick 4-5-6 to give them a sniff?
There are countless examples of clubs using the system for the betterment of their club.
As for your last quetion - no i don't, we never had the infrastructure in place to take advantage of the many early draft picks, now we do as is clearly evident with the way our list seems to be developing under the hardwick regime.
Look right now imo we have 4 players who I am confident will be A graders, Deledio, cotchin, martin and reiwoldt... If you could ad the number 4 pick this season and the number 4 & 6 picks next season we give ourselves a good shot of having 6-7 potential A-graders on our list, now that is a nucleus you can build a club around for the next decade and beyond. Scrap the past and what we've fluffed, we wont be doin that nymore under Hardwick, he has the team to develop draftees.
N.B sorry about the grammer, wireless keyboard is stuffed andCBF proofing it
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Oh comeon... did you watch the melbourne carlton game for the Kruezer cup end of 07? each teams best ball users were playing wide of each other lol
No I didnt, nor any of the other "did you see"s, thats why I asked. If I remember correctly when KB was coaching in a game against sydney our young onballers (lambert knights free and co) played a similar type of game against sydney (willliams, healy, toohey(?) and co). It actually makes for pretty good footy.
were both sides trying to lose? doesnt realy cut it as evidence of match fixing.
what did the eagles actually do for a number of years where their first priority was to to lose. Who told them to pull their head in and when?
Hawks played the rebuild and list management card to perfection, continually playing kids ahead of experience even when form didnt warrant it, but importantly they got games into kids even though for the first 30 games the club knew they wouldnt win many at all which suited them just fne...
That is not deliberately losing. Its what you need to do when rebuilding and would still happen without draft concessions being available. By that line of thought you could argue that Hardwick is tanking at the moment, but tanking is deliberately losing, not losing as a byproduct of legitimate development actions.
Did you see when collingwood put their players out to pasture in 2005 and got picks 2 & 5, 2 years after they played in 2 GF's in a row?
again legitimate long term action for development.
Did you see what Bailey was doing against us last season? Miller as a ruck rover, petterd as FB, Bate CHB, warnock on a wing, it was a bloody disgrace, did everything humanely possible to give his side the least chance of winning.
Under the circumstances of that game, it would seem that Baily's priority was to lose. Notice I didnt ask you about Melbourne but I'm glad you answered that as to be honest if I'd been asked I wouldnt have been able to nominate the players played out of position - Thanks.
As you say a disgrace, yet you want richmond to behave in a disgraceful manner?
was 1 game and for some reason we almost had the saints until a few timely interchanges from wallace put paid to that.
Can you be a bit more specific on the interchanges and how they cost us the game? (Is that the game wallace referred to when he admitted he sat on his hands)
If clubs are match fixing to gain picks they are not using the system, they are abusing it. The line of thought that others play outside the rules so should we is pretty poor. Should we apply that logic to everyday life and all turn to criminal activities to get ahead, just because some other people do? Or perhaps a little more relevant should Australia put all our athletes on steroids, just because some other athletes take them?
The nature of the rebuilding process that RFC is going through will ensure that we get an early pick this year and probably next year too, without having to lower ourselves to the level of soulless and/or integrity lacking clubs.
If we do actually start winning games next year and climb the ladder, it wont be due to short term top ups or on the back of senior hacks, as in previous years, it will be due to to genuine improvement in the players which is hugely different. Even early this year clubs playing us did not take us lightly and as time goes on that will not change. There will be very few cheap wins for RFC in the near future - any win will be on merit, not because someone took us lightly or on the back of a playing group that has no real improvement left in it, as in the past.
If you need to resort to cheating to win then that is an admission that you are just not good enough to play within the rules and you might as well pack up and go home.
As for grammar, unless it changes what you are trying to say who gives a poo.
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Deliberately tanking is called match fixing and is against the law, if they ever proved a team did it, they would be taken to the cleaners by all the betting agencies and any government dept. involved in gaming / gambling / betting etc. It's big beans, like raping the tax dept. of what they think is theirs with the element of conspiracy to commit fraud thrown in etc. Cheating makes me sick, it reminds me of kiddy fiddlers and commie, terrorist, nazi, pinko, Andrew Bolt, Melbourne, Collingwood, Carltank, supporters. I don't want to think of my team like that.
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So just to clarify, when speaking for myself using the term tanking is exactly what every one of those sides mentioned in this thread has done, put the older players out to pasture early and play kids ahead of them even when form isnt warranted... by doing so you wont win many games hence getting a PP. Whats wrong with that?
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So just to clarify, when speaking for myself using the term tanking is exactly what every one of those sides mentioned in this thread has done, put the older players out to pasture early and play kids ahead of them even when form isnt warranted... by doing so you wont win many games hence getting a PP. Whats wrong with that?
exactly TM.
Facts are in the years to come no one will remember what the Demons, Blues or Hawks for that matter did to secure young guns for their team.
People only remember flags and finals appearances, not list management or tanking or whatever people want to call it. Just like salary cap issues no one remembers nor cares. Bombers won a flag in 01, THATS A FACT!!!!They cheated the system but does anyone really care nor remember. NO!!
They did what they did for the benefit of their football club, something we could've learned instead of those pathetic 9th place finishes which time after time left us in no mans land.
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I remember and Carltank is still called Carltank years after they did it so your "Fact" is already falling around your ears Dan. You remind me of that bloke who broke into the club rooms and changed the umpires votes so he would win the club award. An empty achievement built on a lie. Maybe Caaaarlton is a good fit for you? ;D
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So just to clarify, when speaking for myself using the term tanking is exactly what every one of those sides mentioned in this thread has done, put the older players out to pasture early and play kids ahead of them even when form isnt warranted... by doing so you wont win many games hence getting a PP. Whats wrong with that?
exactly TM.
Facts are in the years to come no one will remember what the Demons, Blues or Hawks for that matter did to secure young guns for their team.
People only remember flags and finals appearances, not list management or tanking or whatever people want to call it. Just like salary cap issues no one remembers nor cares. Bombers won a flag in 01, THATS A FACT!!!!They cheated the system but does anyone really care nor remember. NO!!
They did what they did for the benefit of their football club, something we could've learned instead of those pathetic 9th place finishes which time after time left us in no mans land.
I will never forget.
I was at that Carltank Melbourne game and it was a disgrace.
Of course Dimwittio let it fly through to the keeper the crook idiot.
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However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game.
The only "early" picks they got from finishing at the bottom are Buddy, Roughead & Ellis and they were picks 5, 2 & 3 which are still around the mark of the picks we'll get this year and have done for the past few years.
Lewis was an earlyish pick but from a trade, even if he wasn't would generally be the pick to the team finishing 10th, Birchall was Pick 14 from a trade & Renouf was a 2nd round pick so none of them are early picks.
Their other early picks from finishing down the bottom of the ladder were Beau Dowler & Mitch Thorp who didn't play any significant part in their premiership.
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So just to clarify, when speaking for myself using the term tanking is exactly what every one of those sides mentioned in this thread has done, put the older players out to pasture early and play kids ahead of them even when form isnt warranted... by doing so you wont win many games hence getting a PP. Whats wrong with that?
Nothing wrong with that, but thats not tanking. tanking is deliberately setting out to lose.
Once again;
When a team intentionally loses a game, or does not score as high as it can, to obtain a perceived future competitive advantage (for instance, earning a high draft pick) rather than gamblers being involved, the team is often said to have tanked
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixing
Tanking
transitive verb
to make no effort to win
intransitive verb
to lose intentionally
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tanking
Hardwick is not putting the 22 most likely to win on the paddock every week because he is more interested in developing the right attitude amongst the players, installing team rules, giving youngsters game time, etc. In the short term this reduces our chances of winning, but that is not his primary aim. Come match day he and the team do their best to win each game.
By the definition of the word, this is not tanking, but it is pretty much what you want done.
If you're happy to refer to that as tanking, then you really have no beef as that is what Hardwick is doing now.
For mine the word tanking refers to cheating or match fixing, something I have serious doubts Hardwick would be involved with.
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* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.
It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.
However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
Franklin and Roughead kicked 180 goals. in what manner were they not even playing? ???
no shyte - the saints have not won a flag. but they win many football games and the best players on the team ie. Riewoldt and Goddard who are both still somewhat young are #1 draft picks.
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which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?
What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?
Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?
if we came 16th or 15th with less than 4 and a half wins during the last 5-6-7 years, instead of comming 9th or 12th we would be in a stronger postion.
how can you think otherwise?
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Deliberately tanking is called match fixing and is against the law, if they ever proved a team did it, they would be taken to the cleaners by all the betting agencies and any government dept. involved in gaming / gambling / betting etc. It's big beans, like raping the tax dept. of what they think is theirs with the element of conspiracy to commit fraud thrown in etc. Cheating makes me sick, it reminds me of kiddy fiddlers and commie, terrorist, nazi, pinko, Andrew Bolt, Melbourne, Collingwood, Carltank, supporters. I don't want to think of my team like that.
enjoy your JON instead of your marc murphys then my friend :o
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which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?
What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?
Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?
if we came 16th or 15th with less than 4 and a half wins during the last 5-6-7 years, instead of comming 9th or 12th we would be in a stronger postion.
how can you think otherwise?
spot on
finishing 9th has been our biggest problem over the years. Leaves you in no mans land with false hope led by the tanned one and his mates.
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However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game.
The only "early" picks they got from finishing at the bottom are Buddy, Roughead & Ellis and they were picks 5, 2 & 3 which are still around the mark of the picks we'll get this year and have done for the past few years.
Lewis was an earlyish pick but from a trade, even if he wasn't would generally be the pick to the team finishing 10th, Birchall was Pick 14 from a trade & Renouf was a 2nd round pick so none of them are early picks.
Their other early picks from finishing down the bottom of the ladder were Beau Dowler & Mitch Thorp who didn't play any significant part in their premiership.
Infamy, you let the facts get in the way of a good story!
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* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.
It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.
However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
Franklin and Roughead kicked 180 goals. in what manner were they not even playing? ???
Where did I say they weren't?
Also the bloke who kicked most of those goals was Pick 5, which is higher than the pick we will get this year even getting screwed by GC17, hardly something it requires you to finish last for the next 2 years for. We already have the 2004 Pick 1 & 4, 2007 Pick 2, 2008 Pick 8 & 2009 Pick 3, will also have the 2010 Pick 4... how many do we need?
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The whole draft experience has been a farce. Every time I look back over each year's draft picks it makes me go spare! :banghead
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* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.
It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.
However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
Franklin and Roughead kicked 180 goals. in what manner were they not even playing? ???
Where did I say they weren't?
Also the bloke who kicked most of those goals was Pick 5, which is higher than the pick we will get this year even getting screwed by GC17, hardly something it requires you to finish last for the next 2 years for. We already have the 2004 Pick 1 & 4, 2007 Pick 2, 2008 Pick 8 & 2009 Pick 3, will also have the 2010 Pick 4... how many do we need?
That should be enough you would think! How many number ones have won brownlows since the introduction of the draft? How many number ones have played in premierships since the draft?
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However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game.
The only "early" picks they got from finishing at the bottom are Buddy, Roughead & Ellis and they were picks 5, 2 & 3 which are still around the mark of the picks we'll get this year and have done for the past few years.
Lewis was an earlyish pick but from a trade, even if he wasn't would generally be the pick to the team finishing 10th, Birchall was Pick 14 from a trade & Renouf was a 2nd round pick so none of them are early picks.
Their other early picks from finishing down the bottom of the ladder were Beau Dowler & Mitch Thorp who didn't play any significant part in their premiership.
What you aren't acknowledging is that by getting PP's in 04 and 05 they were then able to trade aggressively knowing they had 2 picks inside the top 5 2 years running and more importantly getting 3 of the best rated KPP in those drafts, that enabled them to trade aggresively to land players like Lewis(pick 7), Birchall(pick 14 - both 1sdt rounders) & co so for mine their whole list management planning enabled them to get enough cream with early picks to help them pinch a premiership. And again getting those extra few bluechip 1st rounders through trading bc of good draft position gave them the talent to win the flag.
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However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game.
The only "early" picks they got from finishing at the bottom are Buddy, Roughead & Ellis and they were picks 5, 2 & 3 which are still around the mark of the picks we'll get this year and have done for the past few years.
Lewis was an earlyish pick but from a trade, even if he wasn't would generally be the pick to the team finishing 10th, Birchall was Pick 14 from a trade & Renouf was a 2nd round pick so none of them are early picks.
Their other early picks from finishing down the bottom of the ladder were Beau Dowler & Mitch Thorp who didn't play any significant part in their premiership.
What you aren't acknowledging is that by getting PP's in 04 and 05 they were then able to trade aggressively knowing they had 2 picks inside the top 5 2 years running and more importantly getting 3 of the best rated KPP in those drafts, that enabled them to trade aggresively to land players like Lewis(pick 7), Birchall(pick 14 - both 1sdt rounders) & co so for mine their whole list management planning enabled them to get enough cream with early picks to help them pinch a premiership. And again getting those extra few bluechip 1st rounders through trading bc of good draft position gave them the talent to win the flag.
I'll acknowledge that as fair point from the anti-tankers view!
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That should be enough you would think! How many number ones have won brownlows since the introduction of the draft? How many number ones have played in premierships since the draft?
Just for interest's sake GR12, because I don't think its a very relevant point, here are the totals since the draft started in 1987:
Brownlow Medals (1)
Cooney
Grand Finals (12) (4 x Premierships)
Goddard - 1
Hodge - 1 (1 x Premiership)
Riewoldt - 1
Fraser - 2
Headland - 1 (1 x Premiership)
Johnstone - 1
Gardiner - 1
White - 1
Banfield - 3 (2 x Premierships)
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That should be enough you would think! How many number ones have won brownlows since the introduction of the draft? How many number ones have played in premierships since the draft?
Just for interest's sake GR12, because I don't think its a very relevant point, here are the totals since the draft started in 1987:
Brownlow Medals (1)
Cooney
Grand Finals (12) (4 x Premierships)
Goddard - 1
Hodge - 1 (1 x Premiership)
Riewoldt - 1
Fraser - 2
Headland - 1 (1 x Premiership)
Johnstone - 1
Gardiner - 1
White - 1
Banfield - 3 (2 x Premierships)
Thanks Smokey! :thumbsupI actually posed the question out of a mixture of curiosity and to prove a moot point!
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Honestly, whats the point of dragging all this up again? This argument has been done to death! Must be a quiet news week ralphy!
if nothing else it highlights the senslesness in winning late season games with a terrible list at the expense of quality picks.
its a very good article and clearly shows what struggling clubs need to do late in the season.
the mantra of the rfc should be and should have been for yrs now CATTLE FIRST all other things are secondary.
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Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal and we should have tanked last season and been in line for pick 4 and 6 in a good draft. Only idiots believe otherwise. This winning culture theory under both Frawley and Wallace is was and always will be bulldust.
There are other ways to build your list Ramps.
We'll have to find another way over the next 2-3 years to build the list without tanking.
If you honestly believe a coach can tell his squad that is littered with early 30 year olds, playing for their careers (Coughlan, Brown, Tuck etc) to throw games and tank for draft picks that the club can't even get right anyway, your dreaming.
Exactly pope! Sydney won a flag and played in gf's, how many no.1's do they have in their list?
i believe going by memory and being to lazy to look it up again sydney had 7 or 8 first rnd selections in the premiership side. they also had 3 or 4 zonal players which were the equivalant of first rounders. on top of this they had a shedload of second rounders.
why is it when people talk about valuable picks they only think of 1st rounders. fair dinkum people really do only see what they want to see.
i know sydney over recent yrs have been successful with rookie picks and some late picks lets follow their example. lets ignore all other circumstances. lets ignore the fact for yrs salary cap concessions and many more rookie picks than most clubs, oh i see thats why they have been good with rookies. or how about we focus on where they are coming from sheesh supporters continue to under rate what players they have had and continue to ignore their unique situation. if people think its been an equal playing field then they are kidding themselves.
sheesh if graham richmond had an opportunity to draft say the next royce hart do you think he would have said lets win a few totally meaningless games at the end of season and miss out on hart. or do you think he would have done what needed to be done. we were once single minded and bloody and took no prisoners when it came to getting what we needed to be a force. we were ruthless and every one else could think what they liked.
graham richmond did what he had to do including cheating and stretchiing the limits unfortunately we and gr could not change with the changing face of footy and we died. ruthlessness single bloody mindness is still a prerequisite we just have to use it in a different system to the gr days.
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which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?
What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?
Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?
if we came 16th or 15th with less than 4 and a half wins during the last 5-6-7 years, instead of comming 9th or 12th we would be in a stronger postion.
how can you think otherwise?
Since the introduction of the draft, 24 years ago, Richmond have not finished in the bottom half of the ladder only twice.
Only 7 times in that period we have not finished bottom five, or in other words 17 years out of the last 24 we have finished bottom 5.
From 1986 - 1993 the only time we did not finish bottom four was 1988 when we finished bottom 5. So In a period of 8 consecutive years we continued to finish bottom 5, with 7 of those years being bottom 4.
Again from 2002-2004 we finished bottom 4, clawing our way up bottom 5 in 2005 - thats 3 consecutive years bottom 4 and 4 consecutive years bottom 5
In the last 6 years only twice have we not finished bottom 5 or if you want 4 out of the last six years we have finished bottom 5
So, just how much failure do you need to be successful?
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Since the introduction of the draft, 24 years ago, Richmond have not finished in the bottom half of the ladder only twice.
Only 7 times in that period we have not finished bottom five, or in other words 17 years out of the last 24 we have finished bottom 5.
From 1986 - 1993 the only time we did not finish bottom four was 1988 when we finished bottom 5. So In a period of 8 consecutive years we continued to finish bottom 5, with 7 of those years being bottom 4.
Again from 2002-2004 we finished bottom 4, clawing our way up bottom 5 in 2005 - thats 3 consecutive years bottom 4 and 4 consecutive years bottom 5
In the last 6 years only twice have we not finished bottom 5 or if you want 4 out of the last six years we have finished bottom 5
So, just how much failure do you need to be successful?
Paints a pretty picture doesn't it Al! But, tanking is the way, how can we possibly not see that! ::) :banghead
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Since the introduction of the draft, 24 years ago, Richmond have not finished in the bottom half of the ladder only twice.
Only 7 times in that period we have not finished bottom five, or in other words 17 years out of the last 24 we have finished bottom 5.
From 1986 - 1993 the only time we did not finish bottom four was 1988 when we finished bottom 5. So In a period of 8 consecutive years we continued to finish bottom 5, with 7 of those years being bottom 4.
Again from 2002-2004 we finished bottom 4, clawing our way up bottom 5 in 2005 - thats 3 consecutive years bottom 4 and 4 consecutive years bottom 5
In the last 6 years only twice have we not finished bottom 5 or if you want 4 out of the last six years we have finished bottom 5
So, just how much failure do you need to be successful?
Paints a pretty picture doesn't it Al! But, tanking is the way, how can we possibly not see that! ::) :banghead
not tanking, list management(otherwise known as tanking to some of us) :shh
you guys dont think that a lack of development & recruitment resources hasn't had a massive impact into how we've used those draft picks to date? Now that the club is well resourced in these areas its no coincidence that we seem to be heading in te right direction.
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Tony, that is exactly what I think.
That's why I refute the unfounded claims that we have not bottomed out enough, (or similar stupidity) and that this is the reason we have been so poor
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the end game is to win a Premiership. to win a Premiership you need great players or players that can become great. Even with improved development, which is very important, we dont have enough players who can become great players to take us to our next flag. thats why tanking was and is important, thats why we need to get pick 4 this year and thats why we needed to tank the last 2 years and didnt in the chase for winningless means, so that blokes like Rawlings could feel he had a chance at getting the job. RFC supporters lose sight of the end goal to quickly.
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Tony, that is exactly what I think.
That's why I refute the unfounded claims that we have not bottomed out enough, (or similar stupidity) and that this is the reason we have been so poor
the only reason people are saying we are yet to bottom out is a the fact we are on the bottom of the ladder. the fact that a realistic assessment of our list indicates we have many below standard players who are yet to be culled something that most refuse to acknowledge and
finally the fact if people really listen is the club itself saying we are likely in for more of the same next yr.
the real stupidity is ignoring these things.
one other point the rfc is not in melb position where it has to forfiet games to gain picks we will get a pp on its own merits this yr. next yr is the time where late in the season where we will have to make the unfortunate decin to tpick a genuine losing side more likely
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Tm ur spot on.
So let me get this right u guys would rather have finished 09 season on 5 and a half instead of 4 wins. Even at the expense of getting another gun. Give me a break. Funny thing is if it was jack r or lids who kicked the goal do you think it would get the same coverage?? The fact it was mclovin makes it worse.
How many times does it need to be pointed out the McMahon had nothing to do with us getting an extra pick?
we are very clear what Mclovin has done
such a morale boosting culture winning victory has come at the expense of another possible gun in this years draft.
2 inside 6 would've been massive for us this year.
hmm to me the real culprit is not mcmahon but an inept footy dept appointing a caretaker coach under the illusion that if he wins a couple of totally meaningless games he might get the job.
make no mistake it has cost us big time already this failure to stay below 5 wins. instead of just griffiths in the second round we would all be singing about both martin and bastinac in our midfield or tapscott and martin. it has cost and people put their heads up their behinds and pretend otherwise.
hands up all you losers out there if you would prefer a meaningless win against melb and another just as meaningless win against ess or ryan bastinac or luke tapscott or any number of good picks available at pick 18.
what did winning two very pooty games with an abysmal list actually gain us. the simple answer is absolutely nothing, then ask what has it cost and is likely to continue to cost.
sheesh carlton and ratten anyone remember when he took over they had enough sense and planning to ensure they lost games late in the yr and look what it got them basically judd and kruezer. melb sheesh they found a way to lose enter scully and trengove. they didnt tank all yr just a couple of games late in the season sheesh even against us they the players did not tank.
people forget melbs failure to stay below 5 wins in 07 look at the cost it was enormous but they werent going to make the same mistake again good clubs learn from their mistakes.
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Tony, that is exactly what I think.
That's why I refute the unfounded claims that we have not bottomed out enough, (or similar stupidity) and that this is the reason we have been so poor
the only reason people are saying we are yet to bottom out is a the fact we are on the bottom of the ladder. the fact that a realistic assessment of our list indicates we have many below standard players who are yet to be culled something that most refuse to acknowledge and
finally the fact if people really listen is the club itself saying we are likely in for more of the same next yr.
the real stupidity is ignoring these things.
one other point the rfc is not in melb position where it has to forfiet games to gain picks we will get a pp on its own merits this yr. next yr is the time where late in the season where we will have to make the unfortunate decin to tpick a genuine losing side more likely
Do you actually read what you write before you post?
You are one who constantly says that we need to bottom out. The fact is we have bottomed out for over two decades. There are a number of reasons why we have been crap, but not being crap enough is not one of them.
When you talk about the poor state of our list how about concentrating on recruitment/player development. We have had stacks of early draft picks, so it is not lack of then that is the issue. I'd be pretty confident in saying that no other team has had the plethora of early draft picks we have, yet we still are the worst perfomed team since the introduction of the draft.
No matter how much you flog a dead horse, it will never get up and run.
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which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?
What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?
Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?
if we came 16th or 15th with less than 4 and a half wins during the last 5-6-7 years, instead of comming 9th or 12th we would be in a stronger postion.
how can you think otherwise?
Since the introduction of the draft, 24 years ago, Richmond have not finished in the bottom half of the ladder only twice.
Only 7 times in that period we have not finished bottom five, or in other words 17 years out of the last 24 we have finished bottom 5.
From 1986 - 1993 the only time we did not finish bottom four was 1988 when we finished bottom 5. So In a period of 8 consecutive years we continued to finish bottom 5, with 7 of those years being bottom 4.
Again from 2002-2004 we finished bottom 4, clawing our way up bottom 5 in 2005 - thats 3 consecutive years bottom 4 and 4 consecutive years bottom 5
In the last 6 years only twice have we not finished bottom 5 or if you want 4 out of the last six years we have finished bottom 5
So, just how much failure do you need to be successful?
The draft is a lot different these days and in the last few years than 20+ years ago.
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Tony, that is exactly what I think.
That's why I refute the unfounded claims that we have not bottomed out enough, (or similar stupidity) and that this is the reason we have been so poor
the only reason people are saying we are yet to bottom out is a the fact we are on the bottom of the ladder. the fact that a realistic assessment of our list indicates we have many below standard players who are yet to be culled something that most refuse to acknowledge and
finally the fact if people really listen is the club itself saying we are likely in for more of the same next yr.
the real stupidity is ignoring these things.
one other point the rfc is not in melb position where it has to forfiet games to gain picks we will get a pp on its own merits this yr. next yr is the time where late in the season where we will have to make the unfortunate decin to tpick a genuine losing side more likely
Do you actually read what you write before you post?
You are one who constantly says that we need to bottom out. The fact is we have bottomed out for over two decades. There are a number of reasons why we have been crap, but not being crap enough is not one of them.
When you talk about the poor state of our list how about concentrating on recruitment/player development. We have had stacks of early draft picks, so it is not lack of then that is the issue. I'd be pretty confident in saying that no other team has had the plethora of early draft picks we have, yet we still are the worst perfomed team since the introduction of the draft.
No matter how much you flog a dead horse, it will never get up and run.
I see no point talking about pre-Frawley era .
in the last 6 years under Wallace we did not bottom out. We drafted old players and attempted to make the finals. which was the wrong path to have takewn. it is hurting us now.
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Tony, that is exactly what I think.
That's why I refute the unfounded claims that we have not bottomed out enough, (or similar stupidity) and that this is the reason we have been so poor
the only reason people are saying we are yet to bottom out is a the fact we are on the bottom of the ladder. the fact that a realistic assessment of our list indicates we have many below standard players who are yet to be culled something that most refuse to acknowledge and
finally the fact if people really listen is the club itself saying we are likely in for more of the same next yr.
the real stupidity is ignoring these things.
one other point the rfc is not in melb position where it has to forfiet games to gain picks we will get a pp on its own merits this yr. next yr is the time where late in the season where we will have to make the unfortunate decin to tpick a genuine losing side more likely
Do you actually read what you write before you post?
You are one who constantly says that we need to bottom out. The fact is we have bottomed out for over two decades. There are a number of reasons why we have been crap, but not being crap enough is not one of them.
When you talk about the poor state of our list how about concentrating on recruitment/player development. We have had stacks of early draft picks, so it is not lack of then that is the issue. I'd be pretty confident in saying that no other team has had the plethora of early draft picks we have, yet we still are the worst perfomed team since the introduction of the draft.
No matter how much you flog a dead horse, it will never get up and run.
Exactly