Author Topic: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)  (Read 9046 times)

tony_montana

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2010, 10:29:16 PM »
* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.
It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.

However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing

buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game. Regardless the saints are in a good place and have been and bugger me i'd rather be in their position than ours over the past 10 years!

tony_montana

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2010, 10:34:58 PM »
since when is deliberately losing within the rules?


ask the afl, bc as has been mentioned thousands of times the saints, hawks, eagles, carlton and melbourne have done it, we havent and guess what? we're still on the bottom lol smell the friggen cheese its not cheating, its called list management even he idiot demitriou has said those very same words.

Let me ask you a question, we deliberately lost to the saints in rnd 22 2007 thereby getting cotchin, i was there and wallace did everything he could to lose that one in the last quarter, i guess you are filthy and extrememly dissapointed in our clb fr getting cotchin and as one of the moral police you would rather see him gone?  give me a break.. the fact we are still having this idotic argument with fellow supporters just staggers me after all these years f watching those other bastard sides fly right by us.

Offline Penelope

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2010, 10:50:38 PM »
which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?

What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?

Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?
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tony_montana

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2010, 11:31:11 PM »
which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?

What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?

Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?

Oh comeon... did you watch the melbourne carlton game for the Kruezer cup end of 07? each teams best ball users were playing wide of each other lol
Did you watch the eagles in full tank mode thepast few years until they were "told" to pull their heads in halfway through last season bc it was that blatant and then turned it on the last 7-8 weeks..
Hawks played the rebuild and list management card to perfection, continually playing kids ahead of experience even when form didnt warrant it, but importantly they got games into kids even though for the first 30 games the club knew they wouldnt win many at all which suited them just fne...
Did you see when collingwood put their players out to pasture in 2005 and got picks 2 & 5, 2 years after they played in 2 GF's in a row?
Did you see what Bailey was doing against us last season? Miller as a ruck rover, petterd as FB, Bate CHB, warnock on a wing, it was a bloody disgrace, did everything humanely possible to give his side the least chance of winning. We have never had the foresight to use the system to its advantage for a full cycle like the other sides have, in 2007 that was 1 game and for some reason we almost had the saints until a few timely interchanges from wallace put paid to that.
When Carlton were in full tank mode Did you watch how Ratten would continually bench fevola in the fnal qarter after he'd kick 4-5-6 to give them a sniff?

There are countless examples of clubs using the system for the betterment of their club.

As for your last quetion - no i don't, we never had the infrastructure in place to take advantage of the many early draft picks, now we do as is clearly evident with the way our list seems to be developing under the hardwick regime.

Look right now imo we have 4 players who I am confident will be A graders, Deledio, cotchin, martin and reiwoldt... If you could ad the number 4 pick this season and the number 4 & 6 picks next season we give ourselves a good shot of having 6-7 potential A-graders on our list, now that is a nucleus you can build a club around for the next decade and beyond. Scrap the past and what we've fluffed, we wont be doin that nymore under Hardwick, he has the team to develop draftees.

N.B sorry about the grammer, wireless keyboard is stuffed andCBF proofing it

Offline Penelope

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2010, 08:58:13 AM »
Quote
Oh comeon... did you watch the melbourne carlton game for the Kruezer cup end of 07? each teams best ball users were playing wide of each other lol
No I didnt, nor any of the other "did you see"s, thats why I asked. If I remember correctly when KB was coaching in a game against sydney our young onballers (lambert knights free and co) played a similar type of game against sydney (willliams, healy, toohey(?) and co). It actually makes for pretty good footy.
were both sides trying to lose? doesnt realy cut it as evidence of match fixing.

what did the eagles actually do for a number of years where their first priority was to to lose. Who told them to pull their head in and when?

Quote
Hawks played the rebuild and list management card to perfection, continually playing kids ahead of experience even when form didnt warrant it, but importantly they got games into kids even though for the first 30 games the club knew they wouldnt win many at all which suited them just fne...

That is not deliberately losing. Its what you need to do when rebuilding and would still happen without draft concessions being available. By that line of thought you could argue that Hardwick is tanking at the moment, but tanking is deliberately losing, not losing as a byproduct of legitimate development actions.

Quote
Did you see when collingwood put their players out to pasture in 2005 and got picks 2 & 5, 2 years after they played in 2 GF's in a row?
again legitimate long term action for development.

Quote
Did you see what Bailey was doing against us last season? Miller as a ruck rover, petterd as FB, Bate CHB, warnock on a wing, it was a bloody disgrace, did everything humanely possible to give his side the least chance of winning.
Under the circumstances of that game, it would seem that Baily's priority was to lose. Notice I didnt ask you about Melbourne but I'm glad you answered that as to be honest if I'd been asked I wouldnt have been able to nominate the players played out of position - Thanks.

As you say a disgrace, yet you want richmond to behave in a disgraceful manner?


Quote
was 1 game and for some reason we almost had the saints until a few timely interchanges from wallace put paid to that.
Can you be a bit more specific on the interchanges and how they cost us the game? (Is that the game wallace referred to when he admitted he sat on his hands)

If clubs are match fixing to gain picks they are not using the system, they are abusing it. The line of thought that others play outside the rules so should we is pretty poor. Should we apply that logic to everyday life and all turn to criminal activities to get ahead, just because some other people do? Or perhaps a little more relevant should Australia put all our athletes on steroids, just because some other athletes take them?

The nature of the rebuilding process that RFC is going through will ensure that we get an early pick this year and probably next year too, without having to lower ourselves to the level of soulless and/or integrity lacking clubs.

If we do actually start winning games next year and climb the ladder, it wont be due to short term top ups or on the back of senior hacks, as in previous years, it will be due to to genuine improvement in the players which is hugely different. Even early this year clubs playing us did not take us lightly and as time goes on that will not change. There will be very few cheap wins for RFC in the near future - any win will be on merit, not because someone took us lightly or on the back of a playing group that has no real improvement left in it, as in the past.

If you need to resort to cheating to win then that is an admission that you are just not good enough to play within the rules and you might as well pack up and go home.

As for grammar, unless it changes what you are trying to say who gives a poo.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline Owl

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2010, 09:09:52 AM »
Deliberately tanking is called match fixing and is against the law, if they ever proved a team did it, they would be taken to the cleaners by all the betting agencies and any government dept. involved in gaming / gambling / betting etc.  It's big beans, like raping the tax dept. of what they think is theirs with the element of conspiracy to commit fraud thrown in etc.  Cheating makes me sick, it reminds me of kiddy fiddlers and commie, terrorist, nazi, pinko, Andrew Bolt, Melbourne, Collingwood, Carltank, supporters.  I don't want to think of my team like that.
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tony_montana

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2010, 09:48:28 AM »
So just to clarify, when speaking for myself using the term tanking is exactly what every one of those sides mentioned in this thread has done, put the older players out to pasture early and play kids ahead of them even when form isnt warranted... by doing so you wont win many games hence getting a PP. Whats wrong with that?

Offline Francois Jackson

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2010, 10:00:07 AM »
So just to clarify, when speaking for myself using the term tanking is exactly what every one of those sides mentioned in this thread has done, put the older players out to pasture early and play kids ahead of them even when form isnt warranted... by doing so you wont win many games hence getting a PP. Whats wrong with that?

exactly TM.

Facts are in the years to come no one will remember what the Demons, Blues or Hawks for that matter did to secure young guns for their team.

People only remember flags and finals appearances, not list management or tanking or whatever people want to call it. Just like salary cap issues no one remembers nor cares. Bombers won a flag in 01, THATS A FACT!!!!They cheated the system but does anyone really care nor remember. NO!!

They did what they did for the benefit of their football club, something we could've learned instead of those pathetic 9th place finishes which time after time left us in no mans land.





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Offline Owl

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2010, 11:44:37 AM »
I remember and Carltank is still called Carltank years after they did it so your "Fact" is already falling around your ears Dan.  You remind me of that bloke who broke into the club rooms and changed the umpires votes so he would win the club award.  An empty achievement built on a lie.  Maybe Caaaarlton is a good fit for you?  ;D
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Offline smasha

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2010, 12:29:38 PM »
So just to clarify, when speaking for myself using the term tanking is exactly what every one of those sides mentioned in this thread has done, put the older players out to pasture early and play kids ahead of them even when form isnt warranted... by doing so you wont win many games hence getting a PP. Whats wrong with that?

exactly TM.

Facts are in the years to come no one will remember what the Demons, Blues or Hawks for that matter did to secure young guns for their team.

People only remember flags and finals appearances, not list management or tanking or whatever people want to call it. Just like salary cap issues no one remembers nor cares. Bombers won a flag in 01, THATS A FACT!!!!They cheated the system but does anyone really care nor remember. NO!!

They did what they did for the benefit of their football club, something we could've learned instead of those pathetic 9th place finishes which time after time left us in no mans land.







I will never forget.

I was at that Carltank Melbourne game and it was a disgrace.

Of course Dimwittio let it fly through to the keeper the crook idiot.

Offline Infamy

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2010, 12:58:14 PM »
However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing
buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game.

The only "early" picks they got from finishing at the bottom are Buddy, Roughead & Ellis and they were picks 5, 2 & 3 which are still around the mark of the picks we'll get this year and have done for the past few years.
Lewis was an earlyish pick but from a trade, even if he wasn't would generally be the pick to the team finishing 10th, Birchall was Pick 14 from a trade & Renouf was a 2nd round pick so none of them are early picks.

Their other early picks from finishing down the bottom of the ladder were Beau Dowler & Mitch Thorp who didn't play any significant part in their premiership.

Offline Penelope

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2010, 03:47:08 PM »
So just to clarify, when speaking for myself using the term tanking is exactly what every one of those sides mentioned in this thread has done, put the older players out to pasture early and play kids ahead of them even when form isnt warranted... by doing so you wont win many games hence getting a PP. Whats wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that, but thats not tanking. tanking is deliberately setting out to lose.
Once again;
Quote
When a team intentionally loses a game, or does not score as high as it can, to obtain a perceived future competitive advantage (for instance, earning a high draft pick) rather than gamblers being involved, the team is often said to have tanked
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Match_fixing

Quote
Tanking
transitive verb
to make no effort to win
intransitive verb
to lose intentionally

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tanking

Hardwick is not putting the 22 most likely to win on the paddock every week because he is more interested in developing the right attitude amongst the players, installing team rules, giving youngsters game time, etc. In the short term this reduces our chances of winning, but that is not his primary aim. Come match day he and the team do their best to win each game.

By the definition of the word, this is not tanking, but it is pretty much what you want done.
If you're happy to refer to that as tanking, then you really have no beef as that is what Hardwick is doing now.

For mine the word tanking refers to cheating or match fixing, something I have serious doubts Hardwick would be involved with.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2010, 05:47:59 PM »
* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.
It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.

However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing

Franklin and Roughead kicked 180 goals. in what manner were they not even playing?  ???

no shyte - the saints have not won a flag. but they win many football games and the best players on the team ie. Riewoldt and Goddard who are both still somewhat young are #1 draft picks.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2010, 05:51:40 PM »
which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?

What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?

Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?

if we came 16th or 15th with less than 4 and a half wins during the last 5-6-7 years, instead of comming 9th or 12th we would be in a stronger postion.

how can you think otherwise?


Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2010, 05:53:40 PM »
Deliberately tanking is called match fixing and is against the law, if they ever proved a team did it, they would be taken to the cleaners by all the betting agencies and any government dept. involved in gaming / gambling / betting etc.  It's big beans, like raping the tax dept. of what they think is theirs with the element of conspiracy to commit fraud thrown in etc.  Cheating makes me sick, it reminds me of kiddy fiddlers and commie, terrorist, nazi, pinko, Andrew Bolt, Melbourne, Collingwood, Carltank, supporters.  I don't want to think of my team like that.

enjoy your JON instead of your marc murphys then my friend  :o