Richmond's 50m kick in the guts: Jordie's goal (Herald-Sun)

[Francois Jackson]

which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?

What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?

Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?

if we came 16th or 15th with less than 4 and a half wins during the last 5-6-7 years, instead of comming 9th or 12th we would be in a stronger postion.

how can you think otherwise?

spot on

finishing 9th has been our biggest problem over the years. Leaves you in no mans land with false hope led by the tanned one and his mates.

[Go Richo 12]

However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing

buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game.

The only "early" picks they got from finishing at the bottom are Buddy, Roughead & Ellis and they were picks 5, 2 & 3 which are still around the mark of the picks we'll get this year and have done for the past few years.
Lewis was an earlyish pick but from a trade, even if he wasn't would generally be the pick to the team finishing 10th, Birchall was Pick 14 from a trade & Renouf was a 2nd round pick so none of them are early picks.

Their other early picks from finishing down the bottom of the ladder were Beau Dowler & Mitch Thorp who didn't play any significant part in their premiership.

Infamy, you let the facts get in the way of a good story!

[Infamy]

* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.

It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.

However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing

Franklin and Roughead kicked 180 goals. in what manner were they not even playing?  ???

Where did I say they weren't?
Also the bloke who kicked most of those goals was Pick 5, which is higher than the pick we will get this year even getting screwed by GC17, hardly something it requires you to finish last for the next 2 years for. We already have the 2004 Pick 1 & 4, 2007 Pick 2, 2008 Pick 8 & 2009 Pick 3, will also have the 2010 Pick 4... how many do we need?

[Carvels Ring]

The whole draft experience has been a farce.  Every time I look back over each year's draft picks it makes me go spare! 

[Go Richo 12]

* Hawks have won a flag, Saints are close, Melb and Carlton have only just started.

It's taken the Saints 10 years from back when they were last wooden spooner and they still haven't won anything no matter how close they are, yet the Hawks have won one within 4 years.

However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing

Franklin and Roughead kicked 180 goals. in what manner were they not even playing?  ???

Where did I say they weren't?
Also the bloke who kicked most of those goals was Pick 5, which is higher than the pick we will get this year even getting screwed by GC17, hardly something it requires you to finish last for the next 2 years for. We already have the 2004 Pick 1 & 4, 2007 Pick 2, 2008 Pick 8 & 2009 Pick 3, will also have the 2010 Pick 4... how many do we need?

That should be enough you would think! How many number ones have won brownlows since the introduction of the draft? How many number ones have played in premierships since the draft?

[tony_montana]

However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing

buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game.

The only "early" picks they got from finishing at the bottom are Buddy, Roughead & Ellis and they were picks 5, 2 & 3 which are still around the mark of the picks we'll get this year and have done for the past few years.
Lewis was an earlyish pick but from a trade, even if he wasn't would generally be the pick to the team finishing 10th, Birchall was Pick 14 from a trade & Renouf was a 2nd round pick so none of them are early picks.

Their other early picks from finishing down the bottom of the ladder were Beau Dowler & Mitch Thorp who didn't play any significant part in their premiership.

What you aren't acknowledging is that by getting PP's in 04 and 05 they were then able to trade aggressively knowing they had 2 picks inside the top 5 2 years running and more importantly getting 3 of the best rated KPP in those drafts, that enabled them to trade aggresively to land players like Lewis(pick 7), Birchall(pick 14 - both 1sdt rounders)  & co so for mine their whole list management planning enabled them to get enough cream with early picks to help them pinch a premiership. And again getting those extra few bluechip 1st rounders through trading bc of good draft position gave them the talent to win the flag.

[Go Richo 12]

However the Hawks didn't win the flag because of their early picks, most of them weren't even playing

buddy, roughead, ellis, lewis, birchall & renouf were all integral, and getting those early picks allowed them to go after Dew as a top up and we all know he turned the game.

The only "early" picks they got from finishing at the bottom are Buddy, Roughead & Ellis and they were picks 5, 2 & 3 which are still around the mark of the picks we'll get this year and have done for the past few years.
Lewis was an earlyish pick but from a trade, even if he wasn't would generally be the pick to the team finishing 10th, Birchall was Pick 14 from a trade & Renouf was a 2nd round pick so none of them are early picks.

Their other early picks from finishing down the bottom of the ladder were Beau Dowler & Mitch Thorp who didn't play any significant part in their premiership.

What you aren't acknowledging is that by getting PP's in 04 and 05 they were then able to trade aggressively knowing they had 2 picks inside the top 5 2 years running and more importantly getting 3 of the best rated KPP in those drafts, that enabled them to trade aggresively to land players like Lewis(pick 7), Birchall(pick 14 - both 1sdt rounders)  & co so for mine their whole list management planning enabled them to get enough cream with early picks to help them pinch a premiership. And again getting those extra few bluechip 1st rounders through trading bc of good draft position gave them the talent to win the flag.

I'll acknowledge that as fair point from the anti-tankers view!

[Smokey]

That should be enough you would think! How many number ones have won brownlows since the introduction of the draft? How many number ones have played in premierships since the draft?

Just for interest's sake GR12, because I don't think its a very relevant point, here are the totals since the draft started in 1987:

Brownlow Medals (1)
Cooney

Grand Finals (12) (4 x Premierships)
Goddard - 1
Hodge - 1 (1 x Premiership)
Riewoldt - 1
Fraser - 2
Headland - 1 (1 x Premiership)
Johnstone - 1
Gardiner - 1
White - 1
Banfield - 3 (2 x Premierships)

[Go Richo 12]

That should be enough you would think! How many number ones have won brownlows since the introduction of the draft? How many number ones have played in premierships since the draft?

Just for interest's sake GR12, because I don't think its a very relevant point, here are the totals since the draft started in 1987:

Brownlow Medals (1)
Cooney

Grand Finals (12) (4 x Premierships)
Goddard - 1
Hodge - 1 (1 x Premiership)
Riewoldt - 1
Fraser - 2
Headland - 1 (1 x Premiership)
Johnstone - 1
Gardiner - 1
White - 1
Banfield - 3 (2 x Premierships)

Thanks Smokey!  :thumbsupI actually posed the question out of a mixture of curiosity and to prove a moot point!

[the claw]

Honestly, whats the point of dragging all this up again? This argument has been done to death! Must be a quiet news week ralphy!

if nothing else it highlights the senslesness in winning late season games with a terrible list at the expense of quality picks.

its a very good article and clearly shows what struggling clubs need to do late in the season.

the mantra of the rfc should be and should have been for yrs now CATTLE FIRST all other things are secondary.

[the claw]

Good article IMHO. Tells it how it is. McMahon should have missed the goal and we should have tanked last season and been in line for pick 4 and 6 in a good draft. Only idiots believe otherwise. This winning culture theory under both Frawley and Wallace is was and always will be bulldust.

There are other ways to build your list Ramps.

We'll have to find another way over the next 2-3 years to build the list without tanking.

If you honestly believe a coach can tell his squad that is littered with early 30 year olds, playing for their careers (Coughlan, Brown, Tuck etc) to throw games and tank for draft picks that the club can't even get right anyway, your dreaming.

Exactly pope! Sydney won a flag and played in gf's, how many no.1's do they have in their list?

i believe going by memory and being to lazy to look it up again  sydney had 7 or 8 first rnd selections in the premiership side. they also had 3 or 4 zonal players which were the equivalant of first rounders. on top of this they had a shedload of second rounders.

why is it when people talk about valuable picks  they only think of 1st rounders. fair dinkum people  really do only see what they want to see.

i know sydney over recent yrs have been successful with rookie picks and some late picks lets follow their example. lets ignore all other circumstances. lets ignore the fact for yrs salary cap concessions and  many more rookie picks than most clubs,  oh i see thats why they have been good with rookies. or how about we focus on where they are coming from  sheesh supporters continue to under rate what players they have had and continue  to ignore their unique situation. if people think its been an equal playing field then they are kidding themselves.

sheesh if graham richmond had an opportunity to draft say the next royce hart  do you think he would have said lets win a few totally meaningless games at the end of season and miss out on hart. or do you think he would have done what needed to be done.   we were once single minded and bloody and took no prisoners  when it came to getting what we needed to be a force. we were ruthless and every one else could think what they liked.
graham richmond did what he had to do  including cheating and stretchiing the limits unfortunately we  and gr could not change with the changing face of footy and we died. ruthlessness single bloody mindness is still a prerequisite  we just have to use it in a different system to the gr  days.

[Penelope]

which games did saints, hawks, eagles, and carlton, deliberately lose and how did they do it?

What did wallace do in the game you mention to deliberately lose?
I thought you said we hadn't tanked before while others had?

Do you really believe that Richmond have been crap because we didnt cheat? That even just by being crap through other means we haven't had enough early draft picks?

if we came 16th or 15th with less than 4 and a half wins during the last 5-6-7 years, instead of comming 9th or 12th we would be in a stronger postion.

how can you think otherwise?

Since the introduction of the draft, 24 years ago, Richmond have not finished in the bottom half of the ladder only twice.

Only 7 times in that period we have not finished bottom five, or in other words 17 years out of the last 24 we have finished bottom 5.

From 1986 - 1993 the only time we did not finish bottom four was 1988 when we finished bottom 5. So In a period of 8 consecutive years we continued to finish bottom 5, with 7 of those years being bottom 4.

Again from 2002-2004  we finished bottom 4, clawing our way up bottom 5 in 2005 - thats 3 consecutive years bottom 4 and 4 consecutive years bottom 5

In the last 6 years only twice have we not finished bottom 5 or if you want 4 out of the last six years we have finished bottom 5

So, just how much failure do you need to be successful?

[Smokey]

Since the introduction of the draft, 24 years ago, Richmond have not finished in the bottom half of the ladder only twice.

Only 7 times in that period we have not finished bottom five, or in other words 17 years out of the last 24 we have finished bottom 5.

From 1986 - 1993 the only time we did not finish bottom four was 1988 when we finished bottom 5. So In a period of 8 consecutive years we continued to finish bottom 5, with 7 of those years being bottom 4.

Again from 2002-2004  we finished bottom 4, clawing our way up bottom 5 in 2005 - thats 3 consecutive years bottom 4 and 4 consecutive years bottom 5

In the last 6 years only twice have we not finished bottom 5 or if you want 4 out of the last six years we have finished bottom 5

So, just how much failure do you need to be successful?

Paints a pretty picture doesn't it Al!  But, tanking is the way, how can we possibly not see that!    

[tony_montana]

Since the introduction of the draft, 24 years ago, Richmond have not finished in the bottom half of the ladder only twice.

Only 7 times in that period we have not finished bottom five, or in other words 17 years out of the last 24 we have finished bottom 5.

From 1986 - 1993 the only time we did not finish bottom four was 1988 when we finished bottom 5. So In a period of 8 consecutive years we continued to finish bottom 5, with 7 of those years being bottom 4.

Again from 2002-2004  we finished bottom 4, clawing our way up bottom 5 in 2005 - thats 3 consecutive years bottom 4 and 4 consecutive years bottom 5

In the last 6 years only twice have we not finished bottom 5 or if you want 4 out of the last six years we have finished bottom 5

So, just how much failure do you need to be successful?

Paints a pretty picture doesn't it Al!  But, tanking is the way, how can we possibly not see that!    

not tanking, list management(otherwise known as tanking to some of us) 

you guys dont think that a lack of development & recruitment resources hasn't had a massive impact into how we've used those draft picks to date? Now that the club is well resourced in these areas its no coincidence that we seem to be heading in te right direction.

[Penelope]

Tony, that is exactly what I think.

That's why I refute the unfounded claims that we have not bottomed out enough, (or similar stupidity) and that this is the reason we have been so poor