One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: 10 FLAGS on October 02, 2011, 06:45:51 PM
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This is my take of the A B C and D's on Richmonds list. Looks like we have a hell of alot of work to do and yes we need more A graders and more B graders and we need less D graders. PS- Being a D grade doesnt mean anything in particular except that probably we need to see some improvement which I expect from the likes of Helbig and Griffiths in particular. Griffiths needs to get his shoulders right and he needs to get out onto the park. Has massive potential. For me it shows that our club needs to make some tough calls and improve upgrade players up the rankings. Thats why I have always believed we should make a play to get a quality potential A grader from the U17 draft.
* Based on performance and capacity to impact games. Less emphasis on potential although this is stated as an *
A
Trent Cotchin A+
Jack Riewoldt A
Brett Deledio A * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A+)
Dustin Martin A- * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A+)
B
Tyrone Vickery B+ * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A)
Bachar Houli B
Chris Newman B
Alex Rance B- * great improvement can see him getting to (Potential B/B+)
Nathan Foley B-
C
Reece Conca C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A)
Jake Batchelor C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Dylan Grimes C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Shaun Grigg
Shane Edwards
David Astbury C-
Robin Nahas C
Shane Tuck C-
Jake King C-
D
Brad Helbig D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential B)
Ben Griffiths D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential A)
Jayden Post D * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential C)
Mitch Farmer D
Luke McGuane D
Will Thursfield D
Daniel Conners D
Mitch Morton D
Ben Nason D
Daniel Jackson D
Angus Graham D
Matthew White D
Matt Dea D
Jeremy Webberley D
Andrew Brown D
David Gourdis D-
NA
Tom Derricks * Hasnt Played Yet
Troy Taylor * Not at the club
Kelvin Moore * Injured
Dean McDonald * Hasnt Played Yet
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So how many A and B and C players does a Premiership team carry. Geelong has about 10 that played on Saturday Collingwood had about 8 or 9 where Collingwood fell down is that Geelong had few Cs and more B graders where Collingwood had too many C's and not enough B grades.
IMHO - Richmond has 4 current A grades with the potential for 3 others although that may not eventuate - but even if they do become A graders we are still 3 A grade players short. Our B grade category is also particularly weak, in this area we are about 5 to 6 players short again with Vickery making strides to move out of this category to get into the A's. Foley is 26 yo so IMHO by the time we are doing anything hes closer to 30 (and probably moving towards the C grade) so he has to be on the table trade wise for us to get a potential A grader. We have enough C grades or players that can make up the bottom 4 or 5 players of a team (19-22).
We have an extraordinary long list of Ds but we have several that can move up the grades. We have to improve this by either seeing improvement from the players or moving them on for kids who can give us more A or B or C grade options. Still a long way to go IMHO but clearly improved over the last 2 years with Hardwick at the helm. What we need now is some courageous decision making and a move towards more A and B grade players.
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Love a good list management thread, especially a good one.
The key as you nailed it, our list of Ds is not only too long but shouldnt exist on an AFL list IMO.
The whole D list that is over the age of 22 should be moved on.
This is where a decent list manager earns his coin.
You take a Nathan Foley who is a B and take the compo pick (potentially B) and weigh up whether its worth using that to acquire a potential A grader first round pick.
You take a Shane Edwards, package that with a 3rd round and acquire an early 2nd round pick (potentially B+) On trade that with a Mitch Morton for possibly a first round pick (A Grader).
You lose Foley, Shane Edwards, Mitch Morton and 3rd rounder and compo pick
for
2 A Grade players.
You get the idea.
Which is why the next 2 years at the draft and trade table is probably more important than anything at our club atm.
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Bit harsh on Matt D giving him a "Double Dea".lol
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It'll be interesting to come back to this after trade week to see the changes that have been made and even going forward looking at the delistings and seeing how all those changes change the list in the first post.
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reasonable assessment...think Astbury has the potential to move up a bit higher & agree that Big Ben's shoulders are a massive issue for us going forward...in all honesty I think we've probably got 12 - 17 players in the A to C grades (fairly similar to your thoughts) & we've seen that you need to get a list to 25 - 30 at least to pick from each week...show's we are still a season or two away and need to 1) keep developing some of those B's, C's & D's up 2) continue to turn over the bottom end with trades/delistings & recruiting and 3) scour the "lower grades" for some clever picks...big couple of off seasons as far as our recruiting staff are concerned...
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C
Reece Conca C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A)
Jake Batchelor C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Dylan Grimes C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Shaun Grigg
Shane Edwards
David Astbury C-
Robin Nahas C
Shane Tuck C-
Jake King C-
D
Brad Helbig D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential B)
Ben Griffiths D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential A)
Jayden Post D * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential C)
Mitch Farmer D
Luke McGuane D
Will Thursfield D
Daniel Conners D
Mitch Morton D
Ben Nason D
Daniel Jackson D
Angus Graham D
Matthew White D
Matt Dea D
Jeremy Webberley D
Andrew Brown D
David Gourdis D-
With Jake King teh exception as we gave him a 2 year contract.
The players with a line through them shouldn't be playing in 2012 IMO. Unless some seriously impressive development happens they are not close to AFL standard. Need to make the tough calls, if my local cricket club can be harsh RE selection, surely a professional AFL cub can.
To also add that I find it interesting that for all these blokes NONE have a 'potential' to improve tag next to them. Which begs the question why on earth would they be kept on?
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I really like this thread because it's helpful in terms of where we are at, but realistic in its assessment of our playing list. Too many posters lack any semblance of objectivity (aka balance).
In some ways watching Geelong yesterday makes this all a bit depressing because you would suggest that they would have at least 9 A graders: Ottens, Selwood, Johnson, Bartel, Scarlett, Chapman, Kelly, Enright and Corey.
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before i rate or categorise players let me say that i categorise differently and jusge harshly.
for me
A = Elite.
B = very good.
C = good or core list player.
D = development players it does not stand for dud or fail. all players 21 or under potentially fall into this category.
B/S = below standard.
to me we have few A grade players or elite players. mainly for one simple reason to be regarded elite you must consitenly perform at the highest levels not just for a yr or or two.our better players are young and are yet to show the consistency that is needed to be rated so highly. potentially we have 4 maybe 5 elite players.
anyway here goes.
A = elite players.
B Deledio - is the only one. I have him borderline very good to elite but placed him as an A. hes had 3 or so consistent yrs.
B = Very good players.
T cotchin - for me still has a fair way to go as far as performances go. i have no doubt he will be an elite player but hes yet to earn that.
J Riewoldt - yep just a B. Still has lots of things to work on for me to become an elite player no doubt he will get there.
D martin - was borderline good to very good but decided to place him in the very good category. he still has a fair bit of work to do. realistically he should be placed in the development category.
C = Good players.
J batchelor - shows more than enough and has few glaring deficiencies. again should be in the development category but did enough to be rated. has lots of upside and could be very good.
R Conca - basically see Batchelor. we could not have asked for more from this kid in yr one.while i have some concerns he will at the least be a good player.
N Foley - always thought him a decent player but i dont think him very good or elite. hes been very good at times but his last 3 yrs considered hes a C. pace and kicking are concerns.
D Grimes - i rate him a fair bit really he should be in development but i think he at least deserves to be placed here . will be at least good likely very good.
B Houli - i place him here based on this season. hes borderline to me because of areas of his game. we had a similar player called mcmahon but houli uses better lucky for him.
K Moore - has not had many outstanding seasons due mainly to injuries. when fit and going hes a good player very good at times.
R Nahas - had a good season but hes still borderline to me needs to show he can put 3 or 4 good seasons together.
C Newman - yep a good honst player nothing flash. pace is a major worry nowdays and his ability to shut down a player.
A Rance - sheesh you take the good with the bad and end up based on this yr with a pass. some wont agree with this rating but im more than comfy with it.
S Tuck - have always liked him as a player despite the weaknesses that make me cringe at times. if he had some polish hed be at least a B.
T Vickery - for a 21 yr old had a good yr starting to show some good signs. still have concerns about some areas.
D = Development players 21 and under.
D Astbury- shows some promise just needs to improve each yr i think he will be at least a good player if played forward.
A Browne - cops a lot of criticism but for such a raw lug has done enough for now.
P Contin - will be given another season i think. will need to step up a bit next season.
M Dea - i think a keeper will be a good player.
T Derickx - not a kid but has only been at senior level both afl and wafl a short time. will need to take a step next yr if hes to survive.
D Gourdis - probably has one more yr to show he belongs. despite his disposal i have always liked him as a player.
B Griffiths - well if all the hype is right hes a superstar. potential is the word he may be very good he may also fail time for him to at least takle a step up.
B Helbig - looks a player and has time on his side. based on potential id say we have at least a good solid citizen.
B Jakobi - has good skills but who knows hes in development for a reason.
D Macdonald - did nothing first yr. have some concerns about him. he at least needs to play decent footy at coburg seniors next yr.
J Orielly - an irish experiment that is worth persisting with i think he will make it.
J Post - has a season to show he belongs must take a step up next yr. lots to like about him but some areas are a concern.
B/S = below standard players. some are borderline and may end up decent players others are well clearly below standard. i wont go into reasons why i place them here because when criticising players it usually degenerates into abuse.
D Connors
S Edwards
M Farmer
A Graham
S Grigg
R Hicks
T Hislop
D Jackson
J King
L Mcguane
B Miller
M Morton
B Nason
T Taylor
W Thursfield
J Webberley
N Westhoff
M White
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Your a harsh man claw. King, Miller, Webberley at the very least should not be in that b/s list. Webbers was running out games very nicely from sub and does have some nice skills. Miller did his job, and King, dunno why you don't like him but he can play football.
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Decent stab at it Claw. I disagree with King, Grigg and Webberley but on the whole you got close. I also wouldn't have had Miller as below standard based on what he was drafted to do - I think he filled that role very well but as for an ongoing key positional role, you are correct.
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I really like this thread because it's helpful in terms of where we are at, but realistic in its assessment of our playing list. Too many posters lack any semblance of objectivity (aka balance).
In some ways watching Geelong yesterday makes this all a bit depressing because you would suggest that they would have at least 9 A graders: Ottens, Selwood, Johnson, Bartel, Scarlett, Chapman, Kelly, Enright and Corey.
Made more sense than 75% of the people on this forum, Welcome AT :gotigers
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B- Foley LOL
dreaming he is a D-
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before i rate or categorise players let me say that i categorise differently and jusge harshly.
for me
A = Elite.
B = very good.
C = good or core list player.
D = development players it does not stand for dud or fail. all players 21 or under potentially fall into this category.
B/S = below standard.
to me we have few A grade players or elite players. mainly for one simple reason to be regarded elite you must consitenly perform at the highest levels not just for a yr or or two.our better players are young and are yet to show the consistency that is needed to be rated so highly. potentially we have 4 maybe 5 elite players.
anyway here goes.
A = elite players.
B Deledio - is the only one. I have him borderline very good to elite but placed him as an A. hes had 3 or so consistent yrs.
B = Very good players.
T cotchin - for me still has a fair way to go as far as performances go. i have no doubt he will be an elite player but hes yet to earn that.
J Riewoldt - yep just a B. Still has lots of things to work on for me to become an elite player no doubt he will get there.
D martin - was borderline good to very good but decided to place him in the very good category. he still has a fair bit of work to do. realistically he should be placed in the development category.
C = Good players.
J batchelor - shows more than enough and has few glaring deficiencies. again should be in the development category but did enough to be rated. has lots of upside and could be very good.
R Conca - basically see Batchelor. we could not have asked for more from this kid in yr one.while i have some concerns he will at the least be a good player.
N Foley - always thought him a decent player but i dont think him very good or elite. hes been very good at times but his last 3 yrs considered hes a C. pace and kicking are concerns.
D Grimes - i rate him a fair bit really he should be in development but i think he at least deserves to be placed here . will be at least good likely very good.
B Houli - i place him here based on this season. hes borderline to me because of areas of his game. we had a similar player called mcmahon but houli uses better lucky for him.
K Moore - has not had many outstanding seasons due mainly to injuries. when fit and going hes a good player very good at times.
R Nahas - had a good season but hes still borderline to me needs to show he can put 3 or 4 good seasons together.
C Newman - yep a good honst player nothing flash. pace is a major worry nowdays and his ability to shut down a player.
A Rance - sheesh you take the good with the bad and end up based on this yr with a pass. some wont agree with this rating but im more than comfy with it.
S Tuck - have always liked him as a player despite the weaknesses that make me cringe at times. if he had some polish hed be at least a B.
T Vickery - for a 21 yr old had a good yr starting to show some good signs. still have concerns about some areas.
D = Development players 21 and under.
D Astbury- shows some promise just needs to improve each yr i think he will be at least a good player if played forward.
A Browne - cops a lot of criticism but for such a raw lug has done enough for now.
P Contin - will be given another season i think. will need to step up a bit next season.
M Dea - i think a keeper will be a good player.
T Derickx - not a kid but has only been at senior level both afl and wafl a short time. will need to take a step next yr if hes to survive.
D Gourdis - probably has one more yr to show he belongs. despite his disposal i have always liked him as a player.
B Griffiths - well if all the hype is right hes a superstar. potential is the word he may be very good he may also fail time for him to at least takle a step up.
B Helbig - looks a player and has time on his side. based on potential id say we have at least a good solid citizen.
B Jakobi - has good skills but who knows hes in development for a reason.
D Macdonald - did nothing first yr. have some concerns about him. he at least needs to play decent footy at coburg seniors next yr.
J Orielly - an irish experiment that is worth persisting with i think he will make it.
J Post - has a season to show he belongs must take a step up next yr. lots to like about him but some areas are a concern.
B/S = below standard players. some are borderline and may end up decent players others are well clearly below standard. i wont go into reasons why i place them here because when criticising players it usually degenerates into abuse.
D Connors
S Edwards
M Farmer
A Graham
S Grigg
R Hicks
T Hislop
D Jackson
J King
L Mcguane
B Miller
M Morton
B Nason
T Taylor
W Thursfield
J Webberley
N Westhoff
M White
Please do your research claw if you going to add to a decent thread and at length.
Gourdis is not under 21 nor can he be considered apart of a 'development squad' He'll be 23 when Round 1 comes along next year.
Incorrect re Webberley and Grigg. Grigg correctly assessed by 10 Flags and so was Webberly.
Your belief in the Irish experiment is concerning. :rollin
A knock on Dean McDonald is stupid and unfair. 4th round pick last year, what do you expect of first year 4th rounders, nearly debuted last round... :rollin
How can you grade Kel Moore anything? He hasn't played for about 18 months?
10 Flags assessment is far closer to the mark IMO.
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before i rate or categorise players let me say that i categorise differently and jusge harshly.
for me
A = Elite.
B = very good.
C = good or core list player.
D = development players it does not stand for dud or fail. all players 21 or under potentially fall into this category.
B/S = below standard.
to me we have few A grade players or elite players. mainly for one simple reason to be regarded elite you must consitenly perform at the highest levels not just for a yr or or two.our better players are young and are yet to show the consistency that is needed to be rated so highly. potentially we have 4 maybe 5 elite players.
anyway here goes.
A = elite players.
B Deledio - is the only one. I have him borderline very good to elite but placed him as an A. hes had 3 or so consistent yrs.
B = Very good players.
T cotchin - for me still has a fair way to go as far as performances go. i have no doubt he will be an elite player but hes yet to earn that.
J Riewoldt - yep just a B. Still has lots of things to work on for me to become an elite player no doubt he will get there.
D martin - was borderline good to very good but decided to place him in the very good category. he still has a fair bit of work to do. realistically he should be placed in the development category.
C = Good players.
J batchelor - shows more than enough and has few glaring deficiencies. again should be in the development category but did enough to be rated. has lots of upside and could be very good.
R Conca - basically see Batchelor. we could not have asked for more from this kid in yr one.while i have some concerns he will at the least be a good player.
N Foley - always thought him a decent player but i dont think him very good or elite. hes been very good at times but his last 3 yrs considered hes a C. pace and kicking are concerns.
D Grimes - i rate him a fair bit really he should be in development but i think he at least deserves to be placed here . will be at least good likely very good.
B Houli - i place him here based on this season. hes borderline to me because of areas of his game. we had a similar player called mcmahon but houli uses better lucky for him.
K Moore - has not had many outstanding seasons due mainly to injuries. when fit and going hes a good player very good at times.
R Nahas - had a good season but hes still borderline to me needs to show he can put 3 or 4 good seasons together.
C Newman - yep a good honst player nothing flash. pace is a major worry nowdays and his ability to shut down a player.
A Rance - sheesh you take the good with the bad and end up based on this yr with a pass. some wont agree with this rating but im more than comfy with it.
S Tuck - have always liked him as a player despite the weaknesses that make me cringe at times. if he had some polish hed be at least a B.
T Vickery - for a 21 yr old had a good yr starting to show some good signs. still have concerns about some areas.
D = Development players 21 and under.
D Astbury- shows some promise just needs to improve each yr i think he will be at least a good player if played forward.
A Browne - cops a lot of criticism but for such a raw lug has done enough for now.
P Contin - will be given another season i think. will need to step up a bit next season.
M Dea - i think a keeper will be a good player.
T Derickx - not a kid but has only been at senior level both afl and wafl a short time. will need to take a step next yr if hes to survive.
D Gourdis - probably has one more yr to show he belongs. despite his disposal i have always liked him as a player.
B Griffiths - well if all the hype is right hes a superstar. potential is the word he may be very good he may also fail time for him to at least takle a step up.
B Helbig - looks a player and has time on his side. based on potential id say we have at least a good solid citizen.
B Jakobi - has good skills but who knows hes in development for a reason.
D Macdonald - did nothing first yr. have some concerns about him. he at least needs to play decent footy at coburg seniors next yr.
J Orielly - an irish experiment that is worth persisting with i think he will make it.
J Post - has a season to show he belongs must take a step up next yr. lots to like about him but some areas are a concern.
B/S = below standard players. some are borderline and may end up decent players others are well clearly below standard. i wont go into reasons why i place them here because when criticising players it usually degenerates into abuse.
D Connors
S Edwards
M Farmer
A Graham
S Grigg
R Hicks
T Hislop
D Jackson
J King
L Mcguane
B Miller
M Morton
B Nason
T Taylor
W Thursfield
J Webberley
N Westhoff
M White
Please do your research claw if you going to add to a decent thread and at length.
Gourdis is not under 21 nor can he be considered apart of a 'development squad' He'll be 23 when Round 1 comes along next year.
Incorrect re Webberley and Grigg. Grigg correctly assessed by 10 Flags and so was Webberly.
Your belief in the Irish experiment is concerning. :rollin
A knock on Dean McDonald is stupid and unfair. 4th round pick last year, what do you expect of first year 4th rounders, nearly debuted last round... :rollin
How can you grade Kel Moore anything? He hasn't played for about 18 months?
10 Flags assessment is far closer to the mark IMO.
sheesh hang me up and flog me.
i apologise on gourdis age your right i should have checked. i wont rely on memory when posting again i hope that pleases you.
anyway him being a tall and still only 22 id still consider him in development.just like i placed the 23 yr old derickx there. would you not agree most players 21 and under are very much in development. it was meant to be a broad statement but hey i will be ultra careful next time.
what else was there oh yes grigg and webberley. shaun grigg sheesh not worth two bob if hes to play outside like he does and kicks so poorly. add the fact hes lazy and he rightly deserves to be placed in the b/s category based purely on his deficiencies. it astounds me that we took this bloke having just implemented a good kick policy. and if they took him because they think hes a big bodied inside player well that would show they dont know what they are doing.
J Webberley. yeah maybe a bit harsh but its his ordinariness and his size that has me place him there. for me the good vfl but poor afl player is the right analogy and while we are nit picking webberley a small will be 24 next yr.
Orielly i reckon he will make it and has far better attributes than webberley. my understanding is he copped plenty of injury this yr. while we are at it he will be 24 next yr but is pretty new to the game. so he goes into development.
kel moore so what are you saying i cant comment on what hes done prior to injuries. which is basically what i did. what was it i said oh yeah, when fit and going he's a good player very good sometimes. sheesh seems to me you have a bee in your bonnett. im sorry you dont like me as a poster but sheesh you should at least stay objective.
Dean macdonald. at 184cm and 87kg hes physically ready. yet he cant even get a game in the seniors at coburg and did nothing a coburg ressies. let me ask how would you rate his yr. and do you not think him in development, exactly where i placed him.to top it off i watched him live this yr and he just looked well i wont say it.
finally i didnt post on here to go into competition with the op. i just gave an opinion. i didnt see too many others actually rating players on this thread. If we all did i certainly would not expect us all to post exactly the same. good for you you like the op better your entitled to your opinion. but i dont see anything to back up your assertions.
just to finish on webberley again. if i was a betting man and im not, my money would be on webberley getting delisted this yr.
oh going by your post you disagree with just 6 out of 45 ratings bloody hell thats too close for comfort.
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McDonald had trouble putting a series of games together all year because of injury. When he finally did he quickly moved from coburg 2nds to the seniors and was named an emergency for Richmonds last game.
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Claw as you said yours is an opinion, as is mine.
In short I pretty much disagree with everything you've said. I'll leave it at that, nothing personal.
10 Flags assessment is spot on.
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Claw as you said yours is an opinion, as is mine.
In short I pretty much disagree with everything you've said. I'll leave it at that, nothing personal.
10 Flags assessment is spot on.
its all good pope your entitled to your opinion. and its likely no more right oir wrong than mine. i dont claim ever to be right i let time decide that. we all live and die on a forum by what we type.
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To be honest I dont think theres much difference at all between what I have said and what Claw has said and if we both used the same categorisation I reckon 90%-95% of the players would end up in exactly the same categories for both of us.
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To be honest I dont think theres much difference at all between what I have said and what Claw has said and if we both used the same categorisation I reckon 90%-95% of the players would end up in exactly the same categories for both of us.
id agree. its surprising how little apart most of us when you get down to the nitty gritty. i could easily place martin cotchin riewoldt in the elite category if i relied more heavily on potential. i think they will be A graders i just think they need to earn it over a longer consistant time.how do you compare martin to say a judd to earn that sort of tating you have to show yr in yr out let alone week in week out that you are indeed elite.
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some pretty fair assessments from ramps and the claw :thumbsup
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I am looking forward to seeing McDonald mixing it up. I am big on development and getting the best out of the blokes we have that have an upside rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater particularly in this time of compromised drafts, unless an obvious upgrade is possible or someone else is ready to take their position. Thats why I don't think we give blokes like Edwards away for nothing.
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I am looking forward to seeing McDonald mixing it up. I am big on development and getting the best out of the blokes we have that have an upside rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater particularly in this time of compromised drafts, unless an obvious upgrade is possible or someone else is ready to take their position. Thats why I don't think we give blokes like Edwards away for nothing.
that makes two of us. im all for the club developing macdonald further. all i have said is hes a development player who had a poor yr.
on edwards id be more than happy for us to trade him for a pick or a similar player age wise. there are wafl players who would give us more than blokes like edwards. skinny slow outside players who cant kick are easily upgraded on.
hes contracted anyway heres hoping he can turn it around, but for a small after 5 yrs in the system i wont hold my breath. as each yr goes by it becomes more and more likely that what you see is what you get with him.
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There was very good reason why he had a poor year too, craw.
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there was?
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is it because he's an average player?
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fair enough Al. he does deserve to be cut some slack. i for one really hope he can develop into a player. we have very few genuine med/sml forwards of decent quality.in fact the list makes grim reading.
as it stands id say the assesment is pretty close to the mark injuries or no injuries. hes very much in development and he needs to play well at senior level at coburg next yr. another yr in the thirds would be a big worry for a player of his type especially when there is so little competition at the club for his role.
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I've had a gut-full of Shedwards, to be frank. People have been making excuses for him for far too long.
His skills just aren't good enough for someone of his size/speed.
Would happily trade him for anything.
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I've had a gut-full of Shedwards, to be frank. People have been making excuses for him for far too long.
His skills just aren't good enough for someone of his size/speed.
Would happily trade him for anything.
Define 'anything' Wilbur
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I've had a gut-full of Shedwards, to be frank. People have been making excuses for him for far too long.
His skills just aren't good enough for someone of his size/speed.
Would happily trade him for anything.
Define 'anything' Wilbur
Maric, or a low pick.
Although, I would prefer to get Maric in the PSD, but you get what I mean.
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I was referring to mcdonald, not edwards.
::)
Yeah, claw the assessment of development is accurate, and i too hope he comes on. if he makes the grade he will bring a bit of class to the forward line.
I was disappointed he struggled with injury all year. Hopefully we will get a good look at him next year.
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Usings ramps As. Bs. Cs. (& griff). We could look like this vs the blues:
Morris*. Grimes. Batchelor.
Newman. Rance. Astbury.
Houli. Cotchin. Conca.
Nahas. Griffiths. King.
Deledio. Riewoldt. Vickery.
Maric*. Martin. Foley.
Grigg. #15.* #26.*
+1. Tuck.
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Coburg.
Dea. Thursfield? Gourdis?
Connors? Mcgaune. Moore?
Edwards. Jackson. White.
Webberly. Miller. X
derickx. Post. Macdonald.
Browne. Helbig. X
Graham. X. X. X.
+. Pick 55. Pick 73? Pick 79? PSD. Rookie/s
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Updated 27 November 2011
* Based on performance and capacity to impact games. Less emphasis on potential although this is stated as an *
A [4 PLAYERS]
Trent Cotchin A+
Jack Riewoldt A
Brett Deledio A * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A+)
Dustin Martin A- * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A+)
B [5 PLAYERS]
Tyrone Vickery B+ * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A)
Bachar Houli B
Chris Newman B
Alex Rance B- * great improvement can see him getting to (Potential B/B+)
Nathan Foley B-
C [10 PLAYERS]
Reece Conca C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A)
Jake Batchelor C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Dylan Grimes C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Ivan Maric C * Addition from Trade Period (Potential B)
Shaun Grigg C
Shane Edwards C
David Astbury C-
Robin Nahas C
Shane Tuck C-
Jake King C-
D [12 PLAYERS]
Brad Helbig D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential B)
Ben Griffiths D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential A)
Jayden Post D * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential C)
Luke McGuane D
Daniel Conners D
Daniel Jackson D
Angus Graham D
Matthew White D
Matt Dea D
Jeremy Webberley D
Andrew Brown D
David Gourdis D-
NA [6 PLAYERS]
Brandon Ellis * Hasnt Played Yet
Todd Elton * Hasnt Played Yet
Steve Morris * Hasnt Played Yet
Tom Derricks * Hasnt Played Yet
Kelvin Moore * Injured
Dean McDonald * Hasnt Played Yet
Changes (Out)- Farmer (D rating- Delisted) Thursfield (D Rating - Delisted) Mitch Morton (D- Rating - Traded) Ben Nason (D Rating - Delisted), Troy Talylor - Delisted and Not Rated Previously.
Changes (In)- Maric (C Rating) Morris, Ellis, Elton and Arnot (Havent Played yet)
Overall Changes Players OUT = 4 D Rated Players AND 1 Non Rated (Taylor) have left the club for 1 C grade with potential to go higher and 4 New Players who are yet to show us what they can do.
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Has Farmer been delisted??????????????
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Yes sir :thumbsup
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:cheers :cheers :cheers :cheers :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :cheers :cheers
It poises the question,WTF did they waste game time on him? Would have been better spent playing one of the pre teen Sweedish boys.
Why????
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Updated 27 November 2011
* Based on performance and capacity to impact games. Less emphasis on potential although this is stated as an *
A [4 PLAYERS]
Trent Cotchin A+
Jack Riewoldt A
Brett Deledio A * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A+)
Dustin Martin A- * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A+)
B [5 PLAYERS]
Tyrone Vickery B+ * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A)
Bachar Houli B
Chris Newman B
Alex Rance B- * great improvement can see him getting to (Potential B/B+)
Nathan Foley B-
C [10 PLAYERS]
Reece Conca C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A)
Jake Batchelor C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Dylan Grimes C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Ivan Maric C * Addition from Trade Period (Potential B)
Shaun Grigg C
Shane Edwards C
David Astbury C-
Robin Nahas C
Shane Tuck C-
Jake King C-
D [12 PLAYERS]
Brad Helbig D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential B)
Ben Griffiths D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential A)
Jayden Post D * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential C)
Luke McGuane D
Daniel Conners D
Daniel Jackson D
Angus Graham D
Matthew White D
Matt Dea D
Jeremy Webberley D
Andrew Brown D
David Gourdis D-
NA [6 PLAYERS]
Brandon Ellis * Hasnt Played Yet
Todd Elton * Hasnt Played Yet
Steve Morris * Hasnt Played Yet
Tom Derricks * Hasnt Played Yet
Kelvin Moore * Injured
Dean McDonald * Hasnt Played Yet
Changes (Out)- Farmer (D rating- Delisted) Thursfield (D Rating - Delisted) Mitch Morton (D- Rating - Traded) Ben Nason (D Rating - Delisted), Troy Talylor - Delisted and Not Rated Previously.
Changes (In)- Maric (C Rating) Morris, Ellis, Elton and Arnot (Havent Played yet)
Overall Changes Players OUT = 4 D Rated Players AND 1 Non Rated (Taylor) have left the club for 1 C grade with potential to go higher and 4 New Players who are yet to show us what they can do.
Pretty spot on analysis there Ramps. It shows the big drop away on our list after our first half-dozen or players. LOL at Jacko's rating.
The only changes I would make to the above (and this is probably nitpicking) would be that as much as I love Cotch as a footballer he's not A+ yet. I would still have him A- along with Dusty. Both while young guns have yet to tear the competition apart like a Judd or Ablett does in the midfield. Vickery would be a 'B' for mine by as I said it's nitpicking.
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I think we tend to over value are players a tad especially at the top end.
Riewoldt having won a coleman medal, I consider the only player worthy of an "A" rating, the others ranked with an A I would have as B+
Martin & Cotchin have shown glimpses and improvement, but just yet, have not reached the A level.
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Cotchin is our best player by a mile. He is worthy of an A
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I think we tend to over value are players a tad especially at the top end.
Riewoldt having won a coleman medal, I consider the only player worthy of an "A" rating, the others ranked with an A I would have as B+
Martin & Cotchin have shown glimpses and improvement, but just yet, have not reached the A level.
Lids not an A? :huh
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:cheers :cheers :cheers :cheers :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :cheers :cheers
It poises the question,WTF did they waste game time on him? Would have been better spent playing one of the pre teen Sweedish boys.
Why????
Who knows man. My question to Ramps is: WTF is Maric doing at C (potential B)??? He's 25/26 and was struggling to play ones last year. If he's got the potential to become a B then Beefcake is at least a C+ already.
not happy with this. not at all
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:cheers :cheers :cheers :cheers :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :cheers :cheers
It poises the question,WTF did they waste game time on him? Would have been better spent playing one of the pre teen Sweedish boys.
Why????
Who knows man. My question to Ramps is: WTF is Maric doing at C (potential B)??? He's 25/26 and was struggling to play ones last year. If he's got the potential to become a B then Beefcake is at least a C+ already.
not happy with this. not at all
Maric was a D but because his a wog he goes up 1 level ;D. In all seriousness Maric doesnt have to do much to get in front of go all in and his mate browne, in that instance he starts as a C. :lol
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Cotchin is our best player by a mile. He is worthy of an A
Agree. Been re-watching some of our games from this year and he is a class above everyone on the list.
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Maybe that's the differentiation to make.
A grade on our list, but not quite on the AFL full team list.
eg. Riewoldt makes it to A grade as he was 4th highest averaging scorer last season, whereas Cotchin was 26th on the average possession list. Then again Deledio came in at 14 just below Judd at 12 only averaging half a possession a game less, so I would upgrade my previous grading of him.
To me it depends on where you make the cutoff point statistically for A grade, past performances and what "type" of player.
eg. forwards I'd cutoff quite high, top 5-10, Mids around the 20, Ruckmen 8, the taller Defenders I find harder to qualify as it's often a pure negating role.
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nope i'm sorry but the kid is A grade
he's a clearance machine
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Cotchin's clearance work is in the top 20 of the AFL easily.
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Cotchin is our best player by a mile. He is worthy of an A
Agree. Been re-watching some of our games from this year and he is a class above everyone on the list.
yes been re-watching a few games myself
He gets an "A" for his pick up on the wing in the Dreamtime game - that sums up Cotch perfectly IMHO
Also he would easily get a game in another team in the comp - that makes him an "A" grader.
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just had a look and no surprises Cotch comes it at number 9 in the comp for clearances, just ahead of GAJ
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ahh well, not too shabby then I spose. How bout them stuffing apples for starters. I think a fairly nice lid has been kept on our midfield through a mixture of media haters and general hope we come good to as a healthy Richmond is good for a Healthy AFL. If we can move Lids up next year, and we can, ... It is going to be awesome...(these are not the words of Owl..)
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your post has gone a bit limp Owl :lol
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Yes I must not say chub or chimp toucher in certain contexts I suppose.
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Update as of December 2011
A [4 PLAYERS]
Trent Cotchin A+
Jack Riewoldt A
Brett Deledio A * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A+)
Dustin Martin A- * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A+)
B [5 PLAYERS]
Tyrone Vickery B+ * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A)
Bachar Houli B
Chris Newman B
Alex Rance B- * great improvement can see him getting to (Potential B/B+)
Nathan Foley B-
C [10 PLAYERS]
Reece Conca C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential A)
Jake Batchelor C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Dylan Grimes C * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential B+)
Ivan Maric C * Addition from Trade Period (Potential B)
Shaun Grigg C
Shane Edwards C
David Astbury C-
Robin Nahas C
Shane Tuck C-
Jake King C-
D [11 PLAYERS]
Brad Helbig D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential B)
Ben Griffiths D+ * will move higher in coming seasons (potential A)
Jayden Post D * will move higher in coming seasons (Potential C)
Luke McGuane D
Daniel Conners D
Daniel Jackson D
Angus Graham D
Matthew White D
Matt Dea D
Jeremy Webberley D
Andrew Brown D
NA [12 PLAYERS]
Brandon Ellis * Hasnt Played Yet
Todd Elton * Hasnt Played Yet
Steve Morris * Hasnt Played Yet
Dean McDonald * Hasnt Played Yet
Tom Derricks * Hasnt Played Yet
Brett O'Hanlon * Hasnt Played Yet
Gibson Turner * Hasnt Played Yet (Rookie)
Ben Darrou * Hasnt Played Yet (Rookie)
Piva Wright * Hasnt Played Yet (Rookie)
Steven Verrier * Hasnt Played Yet (Rookie)
Kelvin Moore * Injured
Addam Maric * Too early to tell (Rookie)
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Cotch is a good player. But he's not in another class to lids.
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Yes he is. Chimp is a stuffing star
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Deledio has the more weapons than chimp; faster/bigger/longerkick
lids has potential to hit kouta-like form and blow teams apart.
Cotchin might end up better but he's not in another ball park to deledio. Voss>Simon black
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Deledio might have those weapons but he doesn't impact on a game like Chimp does. Chimp is 21 FFS and he's already VC and has a B&F under his belt. Has only had 1 full pre-season as well I believe. He's a superstar. Definitely our best player by a long way. Deledio is good but not Chimp good
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Chimp is the best name ever.
LMAO @ The little chimp stuff!
Is that a club name or a Davey?
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Champion Data has us having 4 elite players and that doesn't include Cotch or Dusty.
THE ELITE LIST
Champion Data's elite AFL players for 2012. Judgments made on performances over the past two seasons (must have played at least five games to qualify).
Richmond: Chris Newman (gen def), Brett Deledio (gen def), Bachar Houli (gen def), Jack Riewoldt (key fwd).
THE CRITERIA
All players are rated using Champion Data's rankings points against other players in their position type.
Elite: top 10 per cent
Above Average: top 11-35 per cent
Average: top 36-65 per cent
Below Average: top 66-90 per cent
Poor: Bottom 10 per cent
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/stats-show-hawthorn-has-the-most-talent-laden-list/story-e6frf9jf-1226224741457
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Nice to see on group that is not carried away with Cotchin fever.
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Nice to see on group that is not carried away with Cotchin fever.
>:(
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I would rate rance and foley very good rather than list player.
before i rate or categorise players let me say that i categorise differently and jusge harshly.
for me
A = Elite.
B = very good.
C = good or core list player.
D = development players it does not stand for dud or fail. all players 21 or under potentially fall into this category.
B/S = below standard.
to me we have few A grade players or elite players. mainly for one simple reason to be regarded elite you must consitenly perform at the highest levels not just for a yr or or two.our better players are young and are yet to show the consistency that is needed to be rated so highly. potentially we have 4 maybe 5 elite players.
anyway here goes.
A = elite players.
B Deledio - is the only one. I have him borderline very good to elite but placed him as an A. hes had 3 or so consistent yrs.
B = Very good players.
T cotchin - for me still has a fair way to go as far as performances go. i have no doubt he will be an elite player but hes yet to earn that.
J Riewoldt - yep just a B. Still has lots of things to work on for me to become an elite player no doubt he will get there.
D martin - was borderline good to very good but decided to place him in the very good category. he still has a fair bit of work to do. realistically he should be placed in the development category.
C = Good players.
J batchelor - shows more than enough and has few glaring deficiencies. again should be in the development category but did enough to be rated. has lots of upside and could be very good.
R Conca - basically see Batchelor. we could not have asked for more from this kid in yr one.while i have some concerns he will at the least be a good player.
N Foley - always thought him a decent player but i dont think him very good or elite. hes been very good at times but his last 3 yrs considered hes a C. pace and kicking are concerns.
D Grimes - i rate him a fair bit really he should be in development but i think he at least deserves to be placed here . will be at least good likely very good.
B Houli - i place him here based on this season. hes borderline to me because of areas of his game. we had a similar player called mcmahon but houli uses better lucky for him.
K Moore - has not had many outstanding seasons due mainly to injuries. when fit and going hes a good player very good at times.
R Nahas - had a good season but hes still borderline to me needs to show he can put 3 or 4 good seasons together.
C Newman - yep a good honst player nothing flash. pace is a major worry nowdays and his ability to shut down a player.
A Rance - sheesh you take the good with the bad and end up based on this yr with a pass. some wont agree with this rating but im more than comfy with it.
S Tuck - have always liked him as a player despite the weaknesses that make me cringe at times. if he had some polish hed be at least a B.
T Vickery - for a 21 yr old had a good yr starting to show some good signs. still have concerns about some areas.
D = Development players 21 and under.
D Astbury- shows some promise just needs to improve each yr i think he will be at least a good player if played forward.
A Browne - cops a lot of criticism but for such a raw lug has done enough for now.
P Contin - will be given another season i think. will need to step up a bit next season.
M Dea - i think a keeper will be a good player.
T Derickx - not a kid but has only been at senior level both afl and wafl a short time. will need to take a step next yr if hes to survive.
D Gourdis - probably has one more yr to show he belongs. despite his disposal i have always liked him as a player.
B Griffiths - well if all the hype is right hes a superstar. potential is the word he may be very good he may also fail time for him to at least takle a step up.
B Helbig - looks a player and has time on his side. based on potential id say we have at least a good solid citizen.
B Jakobi - has good skills but who knows hes in development for a reason.
D Macdonald - did nothing first yr. have some concerns about him. he at least needs to play decent footy at coburg seniors next yr.
J Orielly - an irish experiment that is worth persisting with i think he will make it.
J Post - has a season to show he belongs must take a step up next yr. lots to like about him but some areas are a concern.
B/S = below standard players. some are borderline and may end up decent players others are well clearly below standard. i wont go into reasons why i place them here because when criticising players it usually degenerates into abuse.
D Connors
S Edwards
M Farmer
A Graham
S Grigg
R Hicks
T Hislop
D Jackson
J King
L Mcguane
B Miller
M Morton
B Nason
T Taylor
W Thursfield
J Webberley
N Westhoff
M White
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Love to know what you think now people ... this is a terrific topic!
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Love to know what you think now people ... this is a terrific topic!
I had another look at this topic yesterday and I did a summary of where everyone sits. I decided not to put up a summary now, Ill leave if for some time in the season, but on first analysis there seems to be substantial change, with more players hopping into the B section from the C's and some minor adjustments elsewhere. Need to see more evidence and that will come from how the season unfolds.