One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Stripes on September 15, 2014, 12:04:08 PM
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The easiest answer is - somewhere in between
If you had to choose though, did you see 2014 having more positives than negatives? Was it a Fail or a Success?
List a Positive/Success or a Negative/Failure and we'll see how many of each we have at the end. :cheers
1. Positive - Player Driven Success
In the second half of the season the players made each other accountable, demanded that high standards from each other on and off the field, asked more of our leaders and coach and started to instill a new successful culture at the club. The proof will be in the pudding next year but this is the greatest change I have seen at our club in decades.
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1. Negative - Jackson's season
Our reigning B&F had no impact this year and then retired. He was a huge reason that we were so successful in 2013 and it leaves us with a strong bodied midfield, who had plenty of endurance, down. His leadership will also be a big loss - he was the smartest guy off the field but (occasionally) the dumbest on the field I knew :P
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So I'll just keep it going...... :laugh:
2. Positive - Emergence of Miles
Recruiting this kid to the Rookie draft was an amazing get. Despite not being elevated as early as most of us on here wishing he would have, he slotted straight into the center and became one of the biggest reasons we began to win the contested possession count from then on. His inside work also helped to free up Cotchin around the stoppages and allowed Lids and Dusty to spend more time up forward. He was a revelation! :thumbsup
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Negative
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Tick or Plop.
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Positive: The season of Martin. Positive decision to play him forward. Negative playing him in the backline.
Positive: seasons of Maric, Lids, Rance, Ellis(particularly in latter half of season) Astbury until he got injured and Cotchin.
Positive: Season of Miles. Negative should have played from beginning of season.
Positive: Lids playing in the forward line.
Positive: Jack's attitude this season has been very good
Believe Negatives outweigh the positives. Negatives include but are not limited to losses against Bulldogs and Melbourne, inability to beat bogey sides Collingwood and Geelong, recruitment of Hampson. poor drafting(lack of leg speed, lack of quality small forward) side's inability to shut down opposition's main ball carriers and the way the club treated its supporters particularly in first half of season.
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Overall, negative. We lost a valuable line breaker in White without upgrading him.
We lost a contested ball animal in Tuck but at least upgraded him with Miles.
Positive was the improvement in Martin, Ellis, Rance, Lids, Astbury and Titch.
Negative was the lack of improvement in Vlastuin, Vickery, Morris and many of our VFL regulars.
We finished lower on the ladder which is the ultimate way of comparing our performances.
So negative it is....
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Yep got the plop for me due to the finals loss, other than that I thought it was a balanced year of two extremes
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Is it just me or was there no victory worthy of saving on the IQ to watch over the long boring summer.
Most of our "wins" were boring snoozefests.
Maybe the Essendon game ...or the swans game ( because of what was at stake)
To come from 3-10 to make the finals is a real achievement and is something people will be referencing for years.
If nothing else I do feel as though the "footy gods" have forgiven us....no more Ninthmond jokes . After heartbreak in years like 94, 96, 98, and 2000 where we were probably good enough and deserved to make the finals...it was just marvelous to be part of a fairy tale which had a happy ending ( for one week )
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Yeh well i don't know where the improvement is gonna come from
unless they recruit some guns and that won't happen.lol
Dimmer's peaked and has nothing up his sleeve, so we're stuffed.
These spastics were flat out GETTING to finals.
That suggests a gen of 9th/8th to come.
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For me it's a positive barely.
The positives I saw were mainly,
Astbury looking like he could be a real player for us
Benny G starting to get some confidence and showed us more of what he can do for us.
Ellis' second half of the year
Foley getting some good touch again
Grimes getting some good touch again
Emergence of Miles
Dustin Martin having his most consistent season and kicking some great clutch goals
Alex Rance absolutely killing it
Lids potency in attack (although he should've been on ball against Port)
And the change in Cotch's playing style in the second half of the year. I think he's no longer concerned about "being a good captain" and trying to include people in it and instead he is more inclined to take the game on (like that roving goal against Adelaide)
And of course the win over Port, Essendon and Swans.
Negatives
Still no back up for Maric
No real 2nd forward to assist JR. Lloyd has shown glimpses and so has Gordon but they're hardly Jack Gunston.
Another year of not beating Collingwood and North Melbourne
Losing to Melbourne and WB
Vlastuin's 2nd year blues
The persistence with Newman
Chaplin being absolutely awful without Rance as backup
Dimma lashing out at JR and saying "the good players have to play better"
As slow as a 3 legged turtle when it comes to outside run.
And on Neutral ground
Dan Jackson. On one hand he wasn't as good as last year. But on the other hand, would Dimma have played Miles if Jackson was fit to play? So I think his form slump is a blessing in disguise.
JR's year. He didn't come close to winning the Coleman but I really feel for him because he isn't allowed to play his natural game often because Dimma wants him to be a running goal kicking wingman like Richo/Sydney Franklin
For me the feeling I get is (and I'm begin optimistic ) is that 2014 is the year we took one step backwards so we can take 2 steps forwards. At Punt Road, when I was watching the Tigers get slaughtered a fellow supporter chimed in with we have to make the 8 firstly to be competitive and then if the foundation is right then we can charge for a flag. The example he used is West Coast. From 2002, they finished 8th, then 7th, then 7th, then 2nd and a premiership. That's why I don't think making finals back to back should be completely overlooked despite getting a spanking from Port and I am willing to give RFC a pass mark but just barely.
:gotigers
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Negatives:-
We went backwards 3 spots. We won 3 less games.
We got flogged in the Elim.
We were 3 and 10
We lost the Hafey tribute game.
Positives:-
We won the last 9 (albeit 6 were shoe ins).
I agree with brackets.
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8th
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I am a positive there were a lot of negatives in 2014
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Poll results would suggest alternating current.
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It was a record breaker that's for sure, disappointing finish. Hard to cop a loss at any point far less, not firing a shot.
We ll learn a lot and be top 4 in 2015 :thumbsup
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Positives:
Miles - but has a negative attached because it took half a season for him to be played. But as a player massive win for us
Martin - continued improvement in the consistency stakes
Rance - took a further step as a leader
Ellis - been harsh on him but his last half of the season (bar the final as he was terrible) was very good. Needs to be the norm now
Maric - our best leader and it shows and how
Game wise the wins against Adelaide, Essendon and Sydney
Negatives:
The first half of the season. Nothing can hide that it was disgraceful and totally unacceptable
Constant playing of favourites while not rewarding good VFL form.
The Newman contract extension. In a word BEWILDERING!
Rebuking Jack for having the guts to be honest. Was made all the more annoying that once we started winning everyone jumped on the honesty bandwagon
The Melbourne loss - nothing anyone can say
The failure by the Captain to even acknowledge that maybe just maybe he got the call wrong in the final when he decided to kick into a gale.
The spin - members put in their hard earn $$$, they deserve better than the nauseating spin we got while the losses mounted. In a word disrespectful
When it's all said an done what happens now becomes the key, how much have we actually learnt from the mistakes, the negatives?
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When it's all said an done what happens now becomes the key, how much have we actually learnt from the mistakes, the negatives?
I agree whole heartedly with you here WP but I would also suggest that we also need to learn from our successes. One the the biggest problems with our off season and build up to the year was our focus on improving the areas we were weak in while neglecting to build on the elements of our game that had got us into the finals in the first place.
If we can look at what we did successfully in 2013 and this year's 9 game winning streak and mirror it next year while still tweaking the areas we fell away in, then we will be top 4 next year. :thumbsup
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Positives:
Miles - but has a negative attached because it took half a season for him to be played. But as a player massive win for us
Martin - continued improvement in the consistency stakes
Rance - took a further step as a leader
Ellis - been harsh on him but his last half of the season (bar the final as he was terrible) was very good. Needs to be the norm now
Maric - our best leader and it shows and how
Game wise the wins against Adelaide, Essendon and Sydney
Negatives:
The first half of the season. Nothing can hide that it was disgraceful and totally unacceptable
Constant playing of favourites while not rewarding good VFL form.
The Newman contract extension. In a word BEWILDERING!
Rebuking Jack for having the guts to be honest. Was made all the more annoying that once we started winning everyone jumped on the honesty bandwagon
The Melbourne loss - nothing anyone can say
The failure by the Captain to even acknowledge that maybe just maybe he got the call wrong in the final when he decided to kick into a gale.
The spin - members put in their hard earn $$$, they deserve better than the nauseating spin we got while the losses mounted. In a word disrespectful
When it's all said an done what happens now becomes the key, how much have we actually learnt from the mistakes, the negatives?
Pretty much sums it up for me WP. :thumbsup
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If it hasn't been said before Peggy's email was certainly a huge positive
You can't buy that sort of stuff
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Positives:
Miles - but has a negative attached because it took half a season for him to be played. But as a player massive win for us
Martin - continued improvement in the consistency stakes
Rance - took a further step as a leader
Ellis - been harsh on him but his last half of the season (bar the final as he was terrible) was very good. Needs to be the norm now
Maric - our best leader and it shows and how
Game wise the wins against Adelaide, Essendon and Sydney
Negatives:
The first half of the season. Nothing can hide that it was disgraceful and totally unacceptable
Constant playing of favourites while not rewarding good VFL form.
The Newman contract extension. In a word BEWILDERING!
Rebuking Jack for having the guts to be honest. Was made all the more annoying that once we started winning everyone jumped on the honesty bandwagon
The Melbourne loss - nothing anyone can say
The failure by the Captain to even acknowledge that maybe just maybe he got the call wrong in the final when he decided to kick into a gale.
The spin - members put in their hard earn $$$, they deserve better than the nauseating spin we got while the losses mounted. In a word disrespectful
When it's all said an done what happens now becomes the key, how much have we actually learnt from the mistakes, the negatives?
Good summary WP.
I'd add..
Positives
- Griffiths and Astbury starting to show genuine signs of improvement.
- Grimes recovery from chronic hamstring injuries.
- The players turning their season around to make finals for only the 2nd successive time in 40 years.
- Club's work and stability off field. Outstanding.
Negatives
- Failure to bolster coaching staff after the loss of Leppitsch.
- Alarming number of players were down in the first half of the year. Few on our entire list have improved.
- Standards dropped in the first half of the year.
- Tweaks to last seasons game plan that took half a season to recognise weren't working.
- Hampson is a complete dud.
- No options to replace Morris despite requiring a shoulder reco and playing poorly.
- The Elimination Final debacle.
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If it hasn't been said before Peggy's email was certainly a huge positive
You can't buy that sort of stuff
Agreed, taking netball mum communications into the football arena :clapping
Negative, Ramps just carrying on in a way that just baits the apologists on this forum.
Not cool >:(
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Sadly it's all over.
Were just mediocre and that's the way it is. U can stack as many
Positives as u like but success is a pipe dream.
Don't have the cattle. Still.
Don't have the shepherds.
Don't have the dynamics right.
This continuing to improve stuff is a refuge for stagnancy.
Gotta feed the beast if u want it to grow.
A diet of Hampson Thomas Grigg conca Banfield Newman Foley
Is an admission of defeat.
Tiges r still in the 90s.
Lmao@ whacking off over two finals in two years.
Clutching at straws much?
Remind urself of HOW those losses occurred.
We're not only physically handicapped but we can also boast a culture
Of losing insipid mentality.
Comes down to poo
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pONUHIQry1U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pONUHIQry1U)
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Originally thought positive but as time has gone since our insipid performance.
It's an bloody negative.
Gut the place and burn it to the ground.
I want an effigy of stiffy, FJ,Hartley burnt at the stake.
This club has embarrassed its supporters...AGAIN
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pONUHIQry1U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pONUHIQry1U)
LOL , Ox is dat U?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pONUHIQry1U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pONUHIQry1U)
LOL , Ox is dat U?
sometimes
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Netball mums have been a real positive in my year.
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Im gonna just talk myself into thinking that our first finals was a sniff of a 'first year finals team' of virgins and the second go was 'second year blues' and next year is gonna be devastatingly awesome. Don't go blowing my stuffing delusion with facts and poo now...I need something to cling to til I need to think up next years excuses.
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Im gonna just talk myself into thinking that our first finals was a sniff of a 'first year finals team' of virgins and the second go was 'second year blues' and next year is gonna be devastatingly awesome. Don't go blowing my stuffing delusion with facts and poo now...I need something to cling to til I need to think up next years excuses.
Wouldn't be surprized if Port makes the GF owl. Keep your delusions though. Better than always expecting the worst and death riding the team. I wonder whether for some people they should give up supporting the team if it causes them so much angry, frustration and pain. Follow the Big Richo and get into those netball mums ;D
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The winning streak was fun but overall the season was a negative.
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Negative, shouldn't really have to elaborate!!
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The fact that it took a rampaging Port at their home ground to stop our run is a positive for mine not a negative. Port could realistically play and even win a GF this year so I don't feel the same sense of failure as I did last year.
A pass mark is always finals I we have done that two years in a row and learned some valuable lessons a long the way. You don't win 9 games in a row and turn around your season to the point of playing finals without making some important changes as a team. I think people are either too skeptical or too worried about having their expectations raised too high only to have them cast down again. In many ways I don't blame you because history has shown us this is the pattern we follow.
I actually think this year was a huge positive though. The changes we made to our expectations, standards, leadership, accountability and unity as a playing group was massive. We have always looked to the coaches and individual players to change our fortunes in the past (and targeted them if we failed) but it is from the team collectively that success has to come. All the best clubs have a culture that is driven from their playing group and leaders. We have never had that until now.
We have always had poor leadership, poor expectations and poor mental strength as a result. Surely people can see the changes that have been made now. You can hear it in the interviews with Maric, Lids and Miles. You can see it in the way we finally started to fight back when we were behind and win. In 2013 we rarely if ever did that. Even in our loss to Port we actually fought out the game - this is a complete change of attitude. You can feel it in their sense of belief in each other.
I understand people want to look to the first half of the season and to our heart wrenching defeats against the Dees and Dogs in particular, but you must be able to see the positive changes we made. Bringing Miles into the team was a huge positive though people even try and turn this into a negative. Stating that he should have been in earlier is like a kid getting a present but angrily declaring that he should have been given it weeks a go. When you get a gift be bloody thankful because to get a player like Miles from another team would probably cost us a first round draft pick given the immediate impact he has had.
Our backline has never looked stronger and Astbury's form early was impressive. Lids more forward was a fantastic luxury driven by Miles unexpected form. Maric continues to be my pick for our most important player given his influence around stoppages and as a leader now. The negative impact his absence early made to our team can't be denied. Rance has grown in confidence and stature. Ellis was fantastic. Griffiths came of age. Dusty was consistent and ran out games. Positives everywhere.
This year has shown us what it takes as a playing group to be successful. Regardless of individuals now our team knows what is expected from each other on and off the field. That to me makes this year a far more positive year than even 2013. I see 2015 being a huge positive year for us :thumbsup
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The fact that it took a rampaging Port at their home ground to stop our run is a positive for mine not a negative. Port could realistically play and even win a GF this year so I don't feel the same sense of failure as I did last year.
A pass mark is always finals I we have done that two years in a row and learned some valuable lessons a long the way. You don't win 9 games in a row and turn around your season to the point of playing finals without making some important changes as a team. I think people are either too skeptical or too worried about having their expectations raised too high only to have them cast down again. In many ways I don't blame you because history has shown us this is the pattern we follow.
I actually think this year was a huge positive. The changes we made to our expectations, standards, leadership, accountability and unity as a playing group was massive. We have always looked to the coaches and individual players to change our fortunes in the past and targeted them if we failed but it is from the team that success has to come. All the best clubs have a culture that is driven from their playing group and leaders.
We have never had that. We have always had poor leadership, poor expectations and poor mental strength as a result. Surely people can see the changes that have been made now. You can hear it in the Interviews with Maric, Lids and Miles. You can see it in the way we finally started to fight back when we were behind and win. In 2013 we rarely if ever did that. Even in our loss to Port we actually fought out the game - this is a complete change of attitude.
I understand people want to look to the first half of the season and to our heart wrenching defeats against the Dees and Dogs in particular but you must be able to see the positive changes we made. Bringing Miles into the team was a huge positive. Stating that he should have been in earlier is like a kid getting a present but angrily declaring that he should have been given it weeks a go. When you get a gift be bloody thankful because to get a player like Miles from another team would probably cost us a first round draft pick given the immediate impact he has had.
Our backline has never looked stronger and Astbury's form early was impressive. Lids more forward was a fantastic luxury drive by Miles unexpected form. Maric continues to be my pick for our most important player given his influence around stoppages and as a leader now. The negative impact his absence early made to our team can't be denied.
This year has shown us what it takes as a playing group to be successful. Regardless of individuals now our team knows what is expected from each other on and off the field. That to me makes this year a far more positive year than 2013.
Fully agree, in addition think that what we do in the way of recruiting/player management for 2015 in order to inject some leg speed, a bit more class in the forward line and more midfield grunt could be a major stepping stone to pushing up towards the top 4 teams. Miss the mark and sadly we will be back with the cellar dwellers who if doing the right thing recruitment wise will then sail past us in the blink of an eye.
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I agree with that too Lozza. I think we're starting to see signs of a good team in the way we are handling our recruits. It wasn't that long a go we gifted games to early draft picks because they were already better than many of our regular side. Now we don't. All the best sides have the luxury of forcing young players to fight for their place in the team and time to develop their game. I believe we are seeing that with McBean, McDonough, Lennon and co. They will be good players for us but playing our game plan and having the time to focus on their game in the VFL is a great sign imo.
I have much more faith in our recruitment over these last few years than I ever had in the past. We haven't missed one of late. Even first round players who have not reached the heights of some of the others, like Conca and Vickery, are still solid performers.
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I think we have unfortunately put too much pressure on the kids to perform immediately, too impatient, mainly I suppose due to being so poor in recent times were always looking for the next messiah player who could lead us to the promised land. As you say it takes time and players need to mature before being thrown to the wolves, think we do have a good crop of young players coming through but also need to keep adding to this nursery over time so we have a constant trickle of quality coming into the side. This is the only way moving forward to maintain some form of consistency in regards to playing finals (and hopefully winning one!).
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What rot 'losing to Port a positive' please spare me. disgusting effort!
The Tiger army went in force, no other side could match that and they dished that up. FMD
A loss wouldve always equaled a negative, but I could of lived with it if they showed something.
Always accepting mediocrity, Port were a rabble 2 years ago and we just continue with the same old.
Need to chase hard and spend the money we've stockpiled from the supporters and get rid of shittruck plodders, The rest of this thread covers just about most of those.
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What rot 'losing to Port a positive' please spare me. disgusting effort!
The Tiger army went in force, no other side could match that and they dished that up. FMD
A loss wouldve always equaled a negative, but I could of lived with it if they showed something.
Always accepting mediocrity, Port were a rabble 2 years ago and we just continue with the same old.
Need to chase hard and spend the money we've stockpiled from the supporters and get rid of pootruck plodders, The rest of this thread covers just about most of those.
Agree...absolutely laughable that anyone would regard that p.issweak capitulation as anything other than a negative.
Just goes to show the low standards of some of some supporters. Forever content to wallow in mid-table mediocrity and make excuses.
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What rot 'losing to Port a positive' please spare me. disgusting effort!
The Tiger army went in force, no other side could match that and they dished that up. FMD
A loss wouldve always equaled a negative, but I could of lived with it if they showed something.
Always accepting mediocrity, Port were a rabble 2 years ago and we just continue with the same old.
Need to chase hard and spend the money we've stockpiled from the supporters and get rid of pootruck plodders, The rest of this thread covers just about most of those.
Agree...absolutely laughable that anyone would regard that p.issweak capitulation as anything other than a negative.
Just goes to show the low standards of some of some supporters. Forever content to wallow in mid-table mediocrity and make excuses.
What is laughable is the fact that some of our small minded supporters can not see past the loss and see the changes and momentum that led to it. This is what we will take into next year. The attitude of some supporters just goes to show why we imploded for decades, eating our own rather than looking to find constructive ways to improve. Sad really :fishing
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I reckon we were burnt out against port, we looked pretty flogged from the outset, I thought we were due to drop one, just didn't think we would fall so hard.
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Um 35 year member (If you have any idea at all what that actually means) and I was in Adelaide. you?
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39 inches
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The Tiger army went in force, no other side could match that and they dished that up. FMD
If only that was true CUB. Our best is not good enough yet against the top teams on their day. That's what we saw against Port.
A loss wouldve always equaled a negative, but I could of lived with it if they showed something.
We did show something but it was too late. We fought out the game where we could have easily just let the margin blow out to record heights. That is what we would have done in 2013.
Always accepting mediocrity, Port were a rabble 2 years ago and we just continue with the same old.
No one is accepting mediocrity but if you always just focus on the problems and the negatives you end up with a start to the season like we just had. One of the reason we failed early this year is because the coaches focused on improving our deficiencies rather and neglected spending time honing our strengths. Its always a balancing act moving forward on the tightrope. Can't lean too far either way or fall.
Need to chase hard and spend the money we've stockpiled from the supporters and get rid of pootruck plodders, The rest of this thread covers just about most of those.
You can't make whole sale changes without having replacements in hand. If we strip back the list and replacement them all with unproven recruits then we'll go backwards and stay anchored for a decade with GWS and GC rising. To get good replacements you either have to be patient or develop them or spend big and trade for them. To get a player of Miles ability for nothing is as rare as hens teeth. If it was as easy as you say then everyone would be doing it.
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Um 35 year member (If you have any idea at all what that actually means) and I was in Adelaide. you?
Um, that you're old... ;)
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Ish
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Ish
;D
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The only way this year can be called a positive IMO is if we trade and draft well.
The year itself to date is a negative for mine.
Never have I felt so dejected with our footy club and we have been pretty ordinary for a long time. My love of footy took a massive hit this year but I got a bit back in the Essendon, Adelaide and Swans game but still have a long way to go before im totally back on board.
I'm just not convinced we have the people at the top to make the hard calls.
I admire Adelaide FC for making a tough call this week on their coach and admire Sydney even more for their bold recruiting over the last couple of years.
Anyway :gotigers
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The Tiger army went in force, no other side could match that and they dished that up. FMD
1/ If only that was true CUB. Our best is not good enough yet against the top teams on their day. That's what we saw against Port.
A loss wouldve always equaled a negative, but I could of lived with it if they showed something.
2/ We did show something but it was too late. We fought out the game where we could have easily just let the margin blow out to record heights. That is what we would have done in 2013.
Always accepting mediocrity, Port were a rabble 2 years ago and we just continue with the same old.
3/ No one is accepting mediocrity but if you always just focus on the problems and the negatives you end up with a start to the season like we just had. One of the reason we failed early this year is because the coaches focused on improving our deficiencies rather and neglected spending time honing our strengths. Its always a balancing act moving forward on the tightrope. Can't lean too far either way or fall.
Need to chase hard and spend the money we've stockpiled from the supporters and get rid of pootruck plodders, The rest of this thread covers just about most of those.
4/You can't make whole sale changes without having replacements in hand. If we strip back the list and replacement them all with unproven recruits then we'll go backwards and stay anchored for a decade with GWS and GC rising. To get good replacements you either have to be patient or develop them or spend big and trade for them. To get a player of Miles ability for nothing is as rare as hens teeth. If it was as easy as you say then everyone would be doing it.
1/ agree we are nowhere near the top sides. look at the whole yr with blinkers off and our best is hardly good enough to beat middling sides.
2/ we showed nothing. port took their foot off of our throats after blowing us out of the water.
3/what a load of gobbldygook. our coaches rightly recognised what needed to happen to improve beyond a middling side and our players were not up to the challenge.
4/ of course we can make whole sale changes most of those being touted as delistings hardly contributed a thing to the senior side this yr. you could cut 12 players and lose hardly a thing.
in fact with what a lot have contributed its a must we cut hard hard.
jackson retired we have to replace him regardless played just 10 injury riddled games. king retired played just 3, edwards 3, ohanlon 1, arnot 4, helbig 0, stephenson 1, darrou 0, banfield 0,
thats just the ones already gone. there plenty more you could targeytt who have contributed little not just this yr but for yrs.
finally i chuckle at the hype around the wining run. theres at least 5 of those wins that quite frankly were just deplorable where the standard was just poor and there was no real improvement.we played almost as poorly in a lot of games as we did early in the yr but hey we won em and that makes it all good.
if anyone is happy with what transpired this yr then they are indeed very accepting of mediocrity.
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Claw, I thought you wanted 7-8 changes to the list?
WTF are you saying.
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Bringing Miles into the team was a huge positive though people even try and turn this into a negative. Stating that he should have been in earlier is like a kid getting a present but angrily declaring that he should have been given it weeks a go. When you get a gift be bloody thankful because to get a player like Miles from another team would probably cost us a first round draft pick given the immediate impact he has had.
Agree with the basic intent of your post Stripes but conversely we can't improve if we don't look at and acknowledge the mistakes we made (of which there were plenty), and this mistake was a glaringly bad one. So unless the footy dept take that on board and put processes in place so that it doesn't happen again then all the positive attitude under the sun will be useless and possibly counter- productive to both short and long term improvement. It's just as dangerous and bad for the club to ignore the negative as it is to live off the positive.
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Claw, I thought you wanted 7-8 changes to the list?
WTF are you saying.
1 f/a
1 trade possibly 2 trades
4 nd picks minimum
5 rookie picks
have said that or very similar all along.
trouble is we likely wont trade , we likely wont take a f/a and we will probably only use 3 nd picks. the feeling i get from the club is they still think they have set themselves up for sustained success when nothing could be closer to the truth.
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Bringing Miles into the team was a huge positive though people even try and turn this into a negative. Stating that he should have been in earlier is like a kid getting a present but angrily declaring that he should have been given it weeks a go. When you get a gift be bloody thankful because to get a player like Miles from another team would probably cost us a first round draft pick given the immediate impact he has had.
Agree with the basic intent of your post Stripes but conversely we can't improve if we don't look at and acknowledge the mistakes we made (of which there were plenty), and this mistake was a glaringly bad one. So unless the footy dept take that on board and put processes in place so that it doesn't happen again then all the positive attitude under the sun will be useless and possibly counter- productive to both short and long term improvement. It's just as dangerous and bad for the club to ignore the negative as it is to live off the positive.
Agreed. Really I'm just trying to petition a balanced perspective. It has seemed very one siding around these parts recently so I've tried to play devils advocate just to bring people back to a more objective perspective. Miles late inclusion was a stuff up but it was an early stuff up. After the official elevations were made we had our hands tied until we could create an opening for him. Early on Thomas and Miles had very similar numbers and output so I can understand why Dimma went with the more consistent and experienced of the two.
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Miles late inclusion was a stuff up but it was an early stuff up. After the official elevations were made we had our hands tied until we could create an opening for him. Early on Thomas and Miles had very similar numbers and output so I can understand why Dimma went with the more consistent and experienced of the two.
That's the thing with this mistake though, our hands weren't tied, it was just sheer pig-headedness and failure to recognise the bleeding obvious. Maric was always going to be out for as long as he was and it should have been a no-brainer to put him on the LTIL and promote the Big O into his spot. That would have left a spot spare for any contingency and in this case it would have been Miles proving to everyone that he could seriously play the game and get elevated much sooner accordingly. Part of my anger and loss of confidence in the coach and football dept was centred around the way they handled this whole situation. I have a strong lingering fear born of a number of examples now, that Hardwick is pig-headed and that is not going to bode well if we are to learn from our mistakes and progress upward.
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Miles late inclusion was a stuff up but it was an early stuff up. After the official elevations were made we had our hands tied until we could create an opening for him. Early on Thomas and Miles had very similar numbers and output so I can understand why Dimma went with the more consistent and experienced of the two.
That's the thing with this mistake though, our hands weren't tied, it was just sheer pig-headedness and failure to recognise the bleeding obvious. Maric was always going to be out for as long as he was and it should have been a no-brainer to put him on the LTIL and promote the Big O into his spot. That would have left a spot spare for any contingency and in this case it would have been Miles proving to everyone that he could seriously play the game and get elevated much sooner accordingly. Part of my anger and loss of confidence in the coach and football dept was centred around the way they handled this whole situation. I have a strong lingering fear born of a number of examples now, that Hardwick is pig-headed and that is not going to bode well if we are to learn from our mistakes and progress upward.
Maric is our most important player so bringing him back in as soon as possible was obviously Dimmas hope. I do hear you though. I think Dimma found it difficult to believe that Miles was the real deal and even publicly stated that he was surprised at his immediate impact when placed into the team. I believe that he thought it was all VFL form played to make the team which would quickly evaporate once he was played in the AFL. Obviously he was dead wrong.
While I can understand the decision I still didn't agree with it. I was one many calling for his elevation of Thomas at the start of the year too.
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Claw, I thought you wanted 7-8 changes to the list?
WTF are you saying.
1 f/a
1 trade possibly 2 trades
4 nd picks minimum
5 rookie picks
have said that or very similar all along.
trouble is we likely wont trade , we likely wont take a f/a and we will probably only use 3 nd picks. the feeling i get from the club is they still think they have set themselves up for sustained success when nothing could be closer to the truth.
that's 11? I was sure you mentioned 7 or 8?
Anyway, we currently have 9 de-listed with 5 primary list spots and 4 rookies.
We will see what happens in trade week BUT you would think 4 would be getting picked up in the draft and we do have 4 free spots on the rookie list.
Do we have any more rookie spots?
Seems very close to what you are saying?
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3/what a load of gobbldygook. our coaches rightly recognised what needed to happen to improve beyond a middling side and our players were not up to the challenge.
4/ of course we can make whole sale changes most of those being touted as delistings hardly contributed a thing to the senior side this yr. you could cut 12 players and lose hardly a thing.
in fact with what a lot have contributed its a must we cut hard hard.
jackson retired we have to replace him regardless played just 10 injury riddled games. king retired played just 3, edwards 3, ohanlon 1, arnot 4, helbig 0, stephenson 1, darrou 0, banfield 0,
thats just the ones already gone. there plenty more you could targeytt who have contributed little not just this yr but for yrs.
Claw - I don't expect you see that the club needed a more balanced view when seeking to improve. You would have us continually turning over our list every year and wondering why we continue to fail. In saying that every name you mentioned above to leave the club I agree with which is a fair number of delistings. Those changes will bring in plenty of new faces to the club I would suggest.
finally i chuckle at the hype around the wining run. theres at least 5 of those wins that quite frankly were just deplorable where the standard was just poor and there was no real improvement.we played almost as poorly in a lot of games as we did early in the yr but hey we won em and that makes it all good.
if anyone is happy with what transpired this yr then they are indeed very accepting of mediocrity.
Again I disagree with you claw. If you look at the wins in isolation then yes you probably do have some justification to your opinion here but you can never look at games on there own and try and draw a perspective on a teams season. Every club has ordinary games but it is the mark of a good side when they still find a way to win those games. Sydney, Hawks, Feo, Geelong and Port all had a string of games they would rather forget but they still found a way to win.
What I argue is the manner in which we won. We changed our attitudes and accountability towards each other so that losing was no longer acceptable and not fulfiling your role regardless of the score line was not an option. Culture change.
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3/what a load of gobbldygook. our coaches rightly recognised what needed to happen to improve beyond a middling side and our players were not up to the challenge.
4/ of course we can make whole sale changes most of those being touted as delistings hardly contributed a thing to the senior side this yr. you could cut 12 players and lose hardly a thing.
in fact with what a lot have contributed its a must we cut hard hard.
jackson retired we have to replace him regardless played just 10 injury riddled games. king retired played just 3, edwards 3, ohanlon 1, arnot 4, helbig 0, stephenson 1, darrou 0, banfield 0,
thats just the ones already gone. there plenty more you could targeytt who have contributed little not just this yr but for yrs.
Claw - I don't expect you see that the club needed a more balanced view when seeking to improve. You would have us continually turning over our list every year and wondering why we continue to fail. In saying that every name you mentioned above to leave the club I agree with which is a fair number of delistings. Those changes will bring in plenty of new faces to the club I would suggest.
finally i chuckle at the hype around the wining run. theres at least 5 of those wins that quite frankly were just deplorable where the standard was just poor and there was no real improvement.we played almost as poorly in a lot of games as we did early in the yr but hey we won em and that makes it all good.
if anyone is happy with what transpired this yr then they are indeed very accepting of mediocrity.
Again I disagree with you claw. If you look at the wins in isolation then yes you probably do have some justification to your opinion here but you can never look at games on there own and try and draw a perspective on a teams season. Every club has ordinary games but it is the mark of a good side when they still find a way to win those games. Sydney, Hawks, Feo, Geelong and Port all had a string of games they would rather forget but they still found a way to win.
What I argue is the manner in which we won. We changed our attitudes and accountability towards each other so that losing was no longer acceptable and not fulfiling your role regardless of the score line was not an option. Culture change.
looking at games in isolation is important.it is the only way to gauge actual improvement. you can win plenty of games each yr just through a favorable draw play badly and still win.
actual winning is a very small part of determining actual improvement. in many of those games we won in a row im sorry to say we didnt change our attitude or accountability we struck struggling sides or out of form sides and scraped over the line in very poor standard games. despite winning there was few positives to be had.
i said at the end of last yr that i thought we played better footy the yr before yet we won more games. we clearly had a massive drop off this yr and that includes games which we won.
Stripes have you actually looked at the number of players most clubs turn over each yr, ffs the two grand finalists in the last 3 yrs have turned over more than half their lists. 24 respectively, yet they have a better deeper core group than us.
Teams lists are a continual work in progress, forever evolving and the numbers are surprising. There is no place because of so few numbers on them to hang onto a multitude of under performing players who have had time..
id expect even if we won a flag we would still turn over anywhere from 7 to 9 players as a minimum. As club with over half a list of non performers and needing to still build in the short term we need to do more.We need to catch the top sides.
Im not going on about always cutting deep. you offend me with that comment. Obviously im saying we need to cut deep until the list is at a stage where we have no need to do this.w
Where we have actually built a decent core and built some decent depth of which we have failed to do either.
Heres a list of players i envision based on attributes, form, and time in our system that we will turn over in the next 2 yrs not including those we have already cut this yr.
Batchelor, Chaplin, Dea, Elton, Foley, Gordon, Grigg, Hampson, Knights, Lloyd, Newman, Petterd, Thomas, Vickery. there are some i havent mentioned that i personally dont rate and ive not included juniors of which im sure some will fail.
of those mentioned 4 or so will be 30 plus and likely retire anyway. there will be rookies from this yr who will fail as so many do.
it is important that we utilise the nd more than we have in recent yrs. its important that we trade well that we target and take players with f/a that we continually turn over the rookie list.
just doing what is normal entails turning over 8 or so players every yr.
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Negative for mine. I believethe llisthhasnot been managed well.
CCannot see UA building for a flag but rather wallowing in mediocrity
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I'm not trying to offend you claw but I do think you are quick to write a player off and demand for whole-sale changes. We need to ensure we give young players a chance to develop and prove themselves before we off-load them. McBean hasn't played a game in two seasons yet we can all see he has all the potential in the world. There are players that we have given chances too but seem to have stagnated and these are the players I feel we should move on, particularly if they are midfielders/smalls.
I don't mind moving on the likes of Arnot, Helbig, Dea, O'Hanlon and Darrou if they haven't been able to cement a spot in the team as yet but players like McBean, McDonough and co. need more time. A. Edwards should be moved on as should Banfield and The Big O (now that Vickery and Griffiths have shown they can ruck). Jackson and King have retired so that leaves us with 5 senior spots at minimum and four rookie spots. I feel that's a great start.
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just out of interest how much salary cap room would the retirement of Jackson and king free up?
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About 50c each I'd hope.
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I'm not trying to offend you claw but I do think you are quick to write a player off and demand for whole-sale changes. We need to ensure we give young players a chance to develop and prove themselves before we off-load them. McBean hasn't played a game in two seasons yet we can all see he has all the potential in the world. There are players that we have given chances too but seem to have stagnated and these are the players I feel we should move on, particularly if they are midfielders/smalls.
I don't mind moving on the likes of Arnot, Helbig, Dea, O'Hanlon and Darrou if they haven't been able to cement a spot in the team as yet but players like McBean, McDonough and co. need more time. A. Edwards should be moved on as should Banfield and The Big O (now that Vickery and Griffiths have shown they can ruck). Jackson and King have retired so that leaves us with 5 senior spots at minimum and four rookie spots. I feel that's a great start.
can you tell me which young players you think i have written off too quickly. how long is long enough stripes. i can categorically state i have rarely called for a young players head inside of 4 yrs. i think in this regard i am patient too patient at times. yes i critice aspects of their game but i have not called for heads.
i got ridiculed for this but i will say it again . as a loose guide smls by 20, mediums 22 talls 24. of course there are things that skew this like injury or size or new to the game, but it doesnt mean one cant be critical along the way.
have a look at vickery while very critical of him for yrs now, ive never until this yr said yep lets trade him out. ben griffiths has done so little he should have been in the gun despite being a tall but ive never actually called for his head until this yr and thats because i feel we have his position covered with mcbean and the contracted vickery and hes the unfortunate one to be out of contract. we have signed griffiths and as such id play him in front of vickery. both are chronic underachievers to date and that is a problem right across the board.
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I think the slow progress of both Ty and ben is probably part of the reason that we remain a mid table team.if either or both of them really stood up consistently then I think top 4 is within grasp
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I think the slow progress of both Ty and ben is probably part of the reason that we remain a mid table team.if either or both of them really stood up consistently then I think top 4 is within grasp
....well that and a deeper, quicker midfield that ran both ways and a few more players that know how to lay a tackle. That's just a couple of the basics for starters anyway.