One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Infamy on June 28, 2008, 06:14:06 PM
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Sorry, but these two players are holding us back, they were both liabilities today.
Joel playing his one-trick-pony loose man in defence and this time Carlton made him pay for it. Countless times it was Bowden scrambling back to try and cover the guy he just ran off. That decision to allow Wiggins to just run to the 50m sums up all he does now. He's so worried about filling the hole in defence that he ignores the obvious need in front of him. It's time we drop him again, we need to find out if it's a coincidence that we played our best football in decades without him earlier in the year and since his return we have gone back to lazy uninspiring football and been beaten soundly or fallen over the line against equally crap opponents.
I don't care about the good things that Bowden does any more, because it's the bad things he does that loses us games. I know he can be good in traffic and have a cool head, but I was pulling my hair out at the game today from his brain fades and unaccountability.
Hyde, well what else needs to be said. In the 4th quarter we had a decent build up along the Southern Stand wing. Hyde gets it around the 50m mark near the boundary and had a forward about 3-4m clear of his opponent on the lead and Hyde kicks it short and it lands at the forwards feet. Carlton rebound and kick a goal, then run on to kick numerous unanswered goals and seal the game, including one soon after to Murphy who marked clear of Hyde who was floundering in trying to man him up. He got stuff all of the ball and was one of the worst on ground, get rid of him.
They should all be ashamed of their performance today, very few stood out. Perhaps only Lids who was running all day, Hughes who carved up O'Helpless and then required Ratten to put Jamison onto him. Moore did very well on Fevola too plus Morton who was handy too, but that's only 4 players out of 22. Polo wasn't half bad, at least got a lot of it even though Murphy was pretty good too, only a couple of games into his return so there's a bit to work with there.
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That decision to allow Wiggins to just run to the 50m.........
I have to say that was bizarre - I kept my eyes on Joel because I couldn't understand what he was doing. When Fevola marked it Joel went into a hissy fit, as if somebody was too loose or whatever - I cannot ever remeber that happening other than in the schoolyard.
Have to also agree that we were unaccountable on Stevens = how many times did he collect the ball metres in the clear?
No guts no glory today - we froze. Carlton were handed the game - hope they get ahead of themselves thinking they won it through great effort, it was just a hand over. Big game, gut wrenching.
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Can remember the Hyde blunder in the last quarter and that was when we were 80-75 points down. Just not enough skill from Hyde and although I agree that Hyde needs to go at the end of the year to isolate that incident in a quarter when the blues were running freely compared to us would be unfair. Yes Joel was unaccountable again today and he was horribly exposed and again it goes back to Carlton's preparation and our lack of it where another tall was not brought in for Thursty. Joel has been a cancer on this club for ages. Cheap meaningless stats most of the time far outweigh an important mark here or there or a piece of sublime skill. Its the content around that, that counts and unfortunantely it is selfish most of the time. The team is more important than the individual and that last quarter hissy fit characterises the way he goes about his footy.
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Was it just last week Joel had 39 possies and took a game saving grab ruuning the wrong way? Too quick to judge some people >:(
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Was it just last week Joel had 39 possies and took a game saving grab ruuning the wrong way? Too quick to judge some people >:(
There was a massive difference between last week and this week, but the difference wasn't Joel, it was the oppositions game plan. Williams paid no respect to Joel and allowed him to rebound at will. Ratten exposed Joel by directing the play through Joel's opponent whenever he was covering someone who left his man to run up the ground.
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Can remember the Hyde blunder in the last quarter and that was when we were 80-75 points down.
Huh??
I don't think so, scores were about level at this stage and from this very turnover Carlton got a run on and kicked about 4 goals straight. There was the one on the rebound, one from Murphy who marked with Hyde trying to get back on him and then the weird Bowden screw up on Wiggins, plus one other. I left at this point so if there was another screw up from him then add it to the growing pile of evidence.
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Was it just last week Joel had 39 possies and took a game saving grab ruuning the wrong way? Too quick to judge some people >:(
Yeh....and before that it was 2-3 years ago
too blind to judge, some people :banghead
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if u think it was joel bowden's fault we lost today u r kidding yourself buddy.
he tried his gutz out as did newy and even mcmahon, hughes and morton.
the rest are for the tip.
it comes down to this IMO.
tambling, patto captain pathetic are the one's who have gotta go.
come on no more excuses we got hammered and if you lot think the future looks bright when the whole team relies on one matty richardson.
i feel so sorry for that guy because we plays in a team with players that have no HEART.
captain pathetic- we cannot be taken serious as a football club whilst he is our captain FACT!!
Lets hear it once again how good a captain he is and how he does so many good things.
he does nothing!! those midgets on the footy show thursday can run faster than him.
TAMBLING-has never put 4 quarters together since he came to Punt road.You lot live in dream land. One week he is the in and under player we have so craved for, the next he is our next andy mcleod..haha
he does nothing, absolutely nothing...
dont be bagging tuck and bowden at least they try..
hyde-i laughed when i saw hyde running with Waite at one stage.
TW- when u have a dud coach that puts JACK at Full bak on Kruzer, i mean who are you kidding?
what a joke?
it is simple he was outcoached by the flemington straight.
he should have kept his mouth shut in the lead up to this game, but no not our TW.
Line in the sand!!!hahahaha
now i said last week patto needs to go and i stand by it.
we need another ruckman and fast..
patto tries but seriously he needs to go back to Coburg now!!!
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richo is our captain regardless of what the paperwork says
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Joel is a good footier, no worries about that! Every club has maligned players and unfortunately he is ours. If we flick him who will ours be then? Wasn't long ago and the trade Richo chant was loud, what a miscarraige of justice if that happened. Joel deserves the respect that 200 game plus players deserve.
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GOALS
Richmond: Hughes 3, Morton 3, Richardson, Johnson, Deledio, Riewoldt, Simmonds, Polak.
Carlton: Fevola 4, Gibbs 3, Fisher 2, Betts 2, Murphy, Wiggins, Edwards, Cloke, Stevens, Grigg.
BEST
Richmond: Deledio, Bowden, Polo, Foley, Moore, Simmonds, McMahon.
Carlton: Stevens, Carrazzo, Waite, Scotland, Bentick, Gibbs, Thornton.
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little pretenders like jake king are our problem, and that pretender of a captain
also brown owes everyone an apology for his game today
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Ratten exposed Joel by directing the play through Joel's opponent
I think you just made that up. Despite his Wiggins brain fade Joel was our best player imho.
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MJS you must be kidding, Bowden spent most of the day on Fischer who carved him up.
Fischer is such a great mark for his size (one of the best marks pound for pound IMO) and Bowden constantly played off him and he hurt us!!
Players such as Cotchin, Polo and even McMahon added much more value to the team today.
I think you may have been distracted MJS, we were playing Carlton :lol :shh how many tickets did you buy?? ;D ;D ;D
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Fisher is a classy player and kicked a beautifull goal early but I don't believe he carved us up - if you were reviewing the game up 'till 3/4 time Joel would have been spoken about differently. He is certainly in our best players, just gets bagged unfairly when we lose.
I always enjoy Carlton games tho .... :shh
Add-on - just looked at Fisher stats - 12 kicks and 3 handballs. Must have been good ones.
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It was my first game i've attended for the year, and on the way home I was telling my brother the exact same thing Infamy!
Bowden probably thinks he's doing the "experienced, cool headed veteran thing", by slowing us up everytime he gets the ball, then chipping sideways. No wonder his efficiency is 100%, he doesn't take any risks, or kick the ball into our half of the ground. He doesn't suit the style of play we're being coached ie. run and carry, and if offering nothing to the team.
Hyde just needs to be dropped for a Collins or Connors, Tambling has to be dropped and shopped around at years end. Just watching some of his work off the ball, he is a terrible player. He's not even a type we can stick up forward as a goal sneak/forward defensive specialist.
We were flat today though, the break will do some of the youngsters good. We need a ruckman badly, and we needs Cogs in the back in the packs :pray also, I wouldn't be against getting Cousins for a year or two.
EDIT: Why did we replace a tall with a small? Schulz has played some defence this year, poor old Jack, who is one of our more creative forwards, had to play back today?????
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I thought Newy was on Fisher at one stage but I could be wrong. The defence was constantly under seige after half-time anyway as we got smashed out of the middle. Not having Thursty and McGuane meant to we had to improvise too. Only Moore could walk off with his head up high for his job on Fev.
As for Hyde it's no surprise :help.
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Add-on - just looked at Fisher stats - 12 kicks and 3 handballs. Must have been good ones.
I was just looking at Cleve's stats last week, under 10 disposals..... Must have had an ordinary game
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Add-on - just looked at Fisher stats - 12 kicks and 3 handballs. Must have been good ones.
I was just looking at Cleve's stats last week, under 10 disposals..... Must have had an ordinary game
Read the line again - particularly the bit that says "must have been good ones"
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Bowden probably thinks he's doing the "experienced, cool headed veteran thing", by slowing us up everytime he gets the ball, then chipping sideways. No wonder his efficiency is 100%, he doesn't take any risks, or kick the ball into our half of the ground. He doesn't suit the style of play we're being coached ie. run and carry, and if offering nothing to the team.
I'll have to have a look at the replay.
The players were hard to pick early in Hawthorn type jumpers with numbers even harder to read but I'm 100% positive that was Bowden running along the wing, taking risks bouncing and baulking (run and carry) then kicking to a teammate inside 50.
As I said in the votes, I thought he was very very good in the first half. Actually thought he was our best up to then.
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Bowden probably thinks he's doing the "experienced, cool headed veteran thing", by slowing us up everytime he gets the ball, then chipping sideways. No wonder his efficiency is 100%, he doesn't take any risks, or kick the ball into our half of the ground. He doesn't suit the style of play we're being coached ie. run and carry, and if offering nothing to the team.
I'll have to have a look at the replay.
The players were hard to pick early in Hawthorn type jumpers with numbers even harder to read but I'm 100% positive that was Bowden running along the wing, taking risks bouncing and baulking (run and carry) then kicking to a teammate inside 50.
As I said in the votes, I thought he was very very good in the first half. Actually thought he was our best up to then.
My mistake he did amble forward once, I was watching Kingy and Wiggins(?) wrestling on the back flank though.
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My mistake he did amble forward once, I was watching Kingy and Wiggins(?) wrestling on the back flank though.
That was in the last quarter so I've got no idea what you were watching in the first half.
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My mistake he did amble forward once, I was watching Kingy and Wiggins(?) wrestling on the back flank though.
That was in the last quarter so I've got no idea what you were watching in the first half.
Bowden hit Cleve with a pass in the second. Kingy had Wiggins pinned on the ground for about 15 seconds.
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Newman spent most of the game on Betts.
Bowden most of the game on Fischer
Moore on Fev, done a great job also. I normally dont mind Fev as a player but the way he carried on today when he kicked goals after the game was as good as over was ordinary. If he pantsed us all day then fair enough but Moore had his measure well and truly.
Tambo and King spent a fair bit of time on Wiggins.
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but the way he carried on today when he kicked goals after the game was as good as over was ordinary.
Thought the same about Eddy Betts - acted like he'd kicked goal of the year when a mark was dropped into his lap.
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Bowden hit Cleve with a pass in the second. Kingy had Wiggins pinned on the ground for about 15 seconds.
Thanks, didn't see that. I was being dazzled by Joel's run. ;)
The wrestle I'm thinking of was actually in the 3rd because it was to my right and it was Fev getting annoyed about having his r's handed to him by Kel.
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I normally dont mind Fev as a player but the way he carried on today when he kicked goals after the game was as good as over was ordinary. If he pantsed us all day then fair enough but Moore had his measure well and truly.
Winners are grinners.
It was directed at our cheer squad who had been giving it to Fev as Fev wandered over to the fence to mix words. You didn't need to be a good lipreader to know what one supporter was telling Fev to do :lol. At the end of the game some of the cheer squad shook hands with Fev.
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Interesting that Fischer voted in todays Herald Sun :o
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Interesting that Fischer voted in todays Herald Sun :o
Yes - presuming that the same guy who gave the votes wrote the match report he also said that Wiggins was Joel's opponent. ;D
Also said that Joel was loose on the backline covering Fevola's space and that "the plan worked well early" ;D
.....we were in front most of the day !
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Until they played through Joels direct opponent ::)
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I just dont get you guys. Bowden was clearly one of the better players on the day and showed his class many times. You go nuts over the class the new kids show but hate Joel, its just crazy. He plays the role he is told to play, thats it. If you dont like that role then blame the coach not Joel. He is not the reason we lost and there were so many worse then him. He is a class player, end of story.
In so many threads some of you say some of our players are gutless, dont have a go or anything like that, well you are mad. Skills we may lack, coaching might be off at times, game plan is all over the place but having a go is not where get beaten. I dont like lossing anymore that the rest of you but cant come at people saying they are not trying. We were beaten by better team on the day (much as I hate to say that). We just have to get better, stronger, more experinced and play together. Can we do that with the current coaching I dont know, but thats a differnt question. Have a go at skill errors or poor decisions or coaching errors, even have an opinion on selection but please be a supporter.
Supporters do exactly that, support.
Knockers, well look at my avi and you will see the only sort of knockers I like.
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I just dont get you guys. Bowden was clearly one of the better players on the day and showed his class many times. You go nuts over the class the new kids show but hate Joel, its just crazy. He plays the role he is told to play, thats it. If you dont like that role then blame the coach not Joel. He is not the reason we lost and there were so many worse then him. He is a class player, end of story.
The problem with this is that Wallace wanted to change his role because he was not attacking enough out of defence and he was absolute rubbish anywhere else on the field. He's had to move back as a defender because that's the only way he can play. If he's on the list next year I will be bloody fuming.
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If he's on the list next year I will be bloody fuming.
IMHO I hope you are bloody fuming as I still rate him a class above many others in the team.
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If he's on the list next year I will be bloody fuming.
IMHO I hope you are bloody fuming as I still rate him a class above many others in the team.
Clearly you are happy to accept mediocrity then, we will go nowhere as a team with Bowden still in the side.
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If he's on the list next year I will be bloody fuming.
IMHO I hope you are bloody fuming as I still rate him a class above many others in the team.
Clearly you are happy to accept mediocrity then, we will go nowhere as a team with Bowden still in the side.
I rate him a class player, you do not.
I want him to stay, you do not.
Please accept these as differences of opinions without questioning what I will and will not accept. We all want the Tigers to succed, I just think he is better player than you do and he still has a role to play. We all know there will be some that will go at end of year, I just dont think we will cut as deep as a 200+ game, two time best and farest winner.
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I just dont get you guys. Bowden was clearly one of the better players on the day and showed his class many times. You go nuts over the class the new kids show but hate Joel, its just crazy. He plays the role he is told to play, thats it. If you dont like that role then blame the coach not Joel. He is not the reason we lost and there were so many worse then him. He is a class player, end of story.
The problem with this is that Wallace wanted to change his role because he was not attacking enough out of defence and he was absolute rubbish anywhere else on the field. He's had to move back as a defender because that's the only way he can play. If he's on the list next year I will be bloody fuming.
you raise a good point!!
I find it very difficult to understand TW and some of the moves he makes.
weeks ago he comes out and says "we have a new role for Joel" and now he is back to where it all started.
Very strange..can anyone explain this logic to me or have i missed something along the way.
IMO he was not our worst, lets not forget he won the game last week for us.
Im more worried about the other senior players like sugar, browny, polak etc etc
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goes back to Carlton's preparation and our lack of it where another tall was not brought in for Thursty.
my question exactly is why was Thursfield replaced with the smallest emergency in King
this is just a plain stupidy change by Wallace
Another tall could have helped Moore who done well on Fev early but was exposed late because of several others who failed to man up, something the coach should instruct on his playing group, Bowden is instructed by the coach to run free so why bother blaming him for something his told to do.
l'm dumbfounded by some decisions Wallace makes, there is no worse feeling than going down to Carlscum :banghead
Nathan Brown had a ugly day, those kicks on goal he missed were very costly but there was still 20 fit men out of 22 to hold accountable for that lose & some stupid coaching decisions
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I agree with what you say Infamy we have been stooged by Terry claiming Joel was going into a fwd role when we have seen him in defence again and being an engineer of that rack em up tempo footy. I too will be very filthy if he is retained or Hyde for that mate and I accept others opinions on Joel b/c that is what they are and we are all supporters of the footy club. I don't think Fluffy though it is totally the coaches fault for some things that happen out there as unaccountability by Joel yesterday especially when easy stats are hard to get that can be attributed to the player on game day . It is the coaches responsibility knowing the characteristics of this player and what he has said by selecting him in this position on Thursday night and then with Thursty withdrawing late coming in with a small when a Schulz or Rance would have been more beneficial.
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I don't think we've been stooged by Wallace, if anything it's just Wallace resigning to the fact that Bowden is a one trick pony who can't play any other way. He tried to change the way Bowden plays, but the experiment didn't work. He certainly isn't the first coach to try and do the same thing with Joel.
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I think it is more of a necessity thing rather than a change of plan by TW. When Thursfield, King and then Maguine went down we needed defenders to replace them and Bowden was the replacement. Last week the move was successful because it was unexpected but this week Rattan planned and exploited the positioning as most coaches did at the start of the year.
For that reason TW moved him back to Coburg because he was become a detriment to the team rather than an asset.
His lack of pace was obvious on the weekend. When Wiggins took off to receive 'that' kick on the wing Bowden was standing right next to him but rather than run with him or even behind him to attempt to spoil or even hold him up, Joel stopped dead. Conceding the contest he then decided to move back to 'fill the hole' hoping someone would run and stop Wiggins run. Unfortunately, as we all know now, Wiggins continued to run forward while Joel ran back then forward and by taking the easy option rather than being accountable, Wiggins was able to kick from the 50 straight to Fev.
The mistake highlights why Bowden no longer fits into our team. He can not play any other role other than the floating backman where he collects the countless and meaningless multitude of unconstested possessions because he hasn't the pace any more. Watching him over the past few weeks Joel can't be accountable, tackle or provide defensive pressure because he isn't fast enough to keep up with any direct opponent.
Bowden can not be responsible for a foward because they expose him. He is two small to play direct on a player and now he is two slow to stop them on the lead or around the ground.
In attack he is equally slow. He looks to slow down the play, wait for the opposition to move forward and zone up allowing him to kick to an unmanned player. He actual leads/demands that his fellow defenders slow down and kick it around the back half before they attempt to move it forward. This is completely the opposite way in which TW wants us to play. TW wants us to run it out of the defensive 50, take on the opposition and break the lines so we can catch the opposition defenders off guard and give our forwards the best chance of being one out.
For all these reason I don't think Joel will be with us next year or at the very least playing much of the season for Coburg. The possessions he gets are meaningless and opposition coaches are happy for him to get them because they know they can exploit his accountability and lack of defensive pressure/pace.
He has been a great servant of the club but for our future and to regain the pace we had - he needs to go.
Stripes
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Why is it that people say our finals chances are over but the Bombers still have a chance?
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Why is it that people say our finals chances are over but the Bombers still have a chance?
maybe cause we are poo & predictable on big games
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Why is it that people say our finals chances are over but the Bombers still have a chance?
We're just not good enough.
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Watching the replay Joel Bowden played a good game against Carlton
His kicking was direct & setup goals to players instead of going to Richo who drops his head if he dont have his leads honored.
his passing be is short or long all hit the target, His marking the ball well & making space to gather possession so its got me stuffed why people say his days are numbered when any other club would take him
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because they would rather keep players like sugar and patto in the team.
Bowden has been more than serviceable imo.
he has done what he has been asked on every occasion..
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As I said before, it's not the good things he does, it's the mistakes he makes, the unaccountability and the fact that going through his opponent was one of the major factors in why we lost.
You don't get a good feel of it off the tv because you get limited view of the field
He slows us down when it's our fast paced running game that gets us in winning positions
Not to mention the fact that the time we've played anything close to convincing football this year has been when he was out of the side. It can't just be a coincidence, our form matches his presence in the team.
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How can you hold him responsible for the lose when he was responsible for keeping us in the game with a chance to win by setting up goals, His team-mates need to cover for him like all other teams do instead of turning the ball over & Joel being caught out because he was in the play previous 2 balls & players are turning it over softly 2 possessions down the track. How many times does Newman be seen chasing his man or McMahon chasing his ??? but l dont see Newman copping flak. Joel has done more than enough for his team mates & the club. nearly all his possies were pinpoint & he ran all day, not to mention being put on the bench in the last 1/4 for god knows why but only TW can explain his moves
Its time for his mates stood up & started doing what thier meant too & doing a few extras 1%ers
Tambling, Hyde, Foley, White, McMahon, Brown who cost the game in my view, could have done alot more but too many pick JB cause his always on his own cause thats the way his told to play
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I'm not holding him responsible for the loss, with the exception of maybe 4-5 players the entire team was flat.
The team has been pretty flat since Joel returned to the side.
Answer me this... did the team play better football in the 4 weeks that Joel was out of the side, compared to the rest of the year?
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I'm not holding him responsible for the loss, with the exception of maybe 4-5 players the entire team was flat.
The team has been pretty flat since Joel returned to the side.
Answer me this... did the team play better football in the 4 weeks that Joel was out of the side, compared to the rest of the year?
Infinitely better.
Bowden and Pettifer love nothing more than to take a mark, rush back and stand there twirling the ball, waiting for all options to dry up except for the ones behind them.
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The team has been pretty flat since Joel returned to the side.
Answer me this... did the team play better football in the 4 weeks that Joel was out of the side, compared to the rest of the year?
The team has won 3 out of 7 since Joel returned to the side.
I think our best football has been the 1st (outstanding) & 3rd quarters against Port plus the 2nd quarter against Melbourne.
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The team has been pretty flat since Joel returned to the side.
Answer me this... did the team play better football in the 4 weeks that Joel was out of the side, compared to the rest of the year?
The team has won 3 out of 7 since Joel returned to the side.
I think our best football has been the 1st (outstanding) & 3rd quarters against Port plus the 2nd quarter against Melbourne.
You're kidding yourself, falling over the line against 3 bottom 4 sides is hardly good form
We pushed 2 Top 4 sides to the limit plus StKilda when Joel was out of the side and completely dominated Fremantle interstate
Since Joel has returned we have been inconsistent and unconvincing in every single game, sure we may have had moment where we put it all together, but we've generally been smashed by middle of the road teams.
We didn't have a single blow out quarter when Joel was out of the side, it was 4 quarter efforts of high intensity football against both top, middle and bottom teams.
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So you are holding him responsible.
Kidding myself, hey? :D
That 1st quarter against Port is the best football I've seen Richmond play in a long time.
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Agree the footy we played rd 4 -7 was significantly better. By round 11 with Petts and Bowden in the side we looked like a rabble especially in the second half of the Adelaide game. Although footy is a team sport certain factors or players in this case can provide an ultimate destiny for the team. Lamentably for those Bowden lovers he and Petts are two of these underlying factors. Both players over the last few years have become complacent in the side and as a result the tricks in their armoury has suffered not that they had much and so has the team. Bowden would be best suited to a club like Sydney or Adelaide who pride themselves on slow build ups with players who have the skill around them and players with discipline who will do the team things. Although Joel has skill he is unaccountable and ill disciplined when it comes to defending at times so in an accountable team like the Crows or Swans where someone will back him up he when he is indisciplined his shortcomings are not as apparent as they were on Saturday and a team like us where we are indisciplined loose generally unskilled and have a coach who is trying to get the side to implement a quick moving game plan to get the ball long (Yes he has successfully tried this look round 4-7 this season) blokes like Bowden expose the system and are detrimental to the team and their progress going forward long term. Hopefully the match commitee and coaching staff see it that way also.
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Here we go again. :lol
Anyone who doesn't agree with your constant Bowden bagging is called a "Bowden lover".
Not sure why you brought up Pettifer but he was 5th in 2006 and 6th in 2007 in the Jack Dyer Medal.
Incidentally, Joel was 4th both years.
Sorry, I'll accept the opinions of people at the club over yours every day of the week.
As far as you hoping the match committee and coaching staff see things the way you do about Joel, it's bound to happen eventually as he nears the age many players retire. They obviously haven't for about 10 years in the meantime. Me neither.
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You don't get a good feel of it off the tv because you get limited view of the field
Infamy, I agree with you on this 100%+. I have said this many times over the years.
The Tv only picks a small area of what is actually happening. TV coverage doesn't pick up the 1%ers, the blocks, shepherds etc. Johnson for example gets bagged for his disposal etc but there are a number of things he does that the TV just doesn't show. Schulz is another ...
Going back to your initial comment about Bowden and that "effort" in the final qtr in the game last week. I was staggered that IMO the first view of it on the TV doesn't make it look as bad as it actually was seeing it live and happening in front of your eyes. But the reverse angle of it fthe looking out from the goal square I think shows it for what it was.
I haven't made any comment (aside from in my votes) about that effort all week probably because I wanted to forget it. All I'll say about it is it was extremely disappointing, a bad decision and leave it at that
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So you are holding him responsible.
Kidding myself, hey? :D
That 1st quarter against Port is the best football I've seen Richmond play in a long time.
I am not holding Joel responsible for the loss against Carlton, his performance was good in the first half and then a large part of the problem in the 2nd half. It is a team game and the performance of a single member of the side would have to be absolutely terrible to be soley responsible and I am not claiming that Joel was that bad. What I am saying is that his presence in the side has had a negative effect on our intensity and consistency.
As for the 1st quarter against Port, you are being too short sighted. We played great for 15 minutes against Melbourne too, but we limped home in both games to barely manage a win against two crap sides. When we played a crap side with Bowden out of the side it was our best 4 quarter performance in a long time and we won by 10 goals. Stop looking at the little things, the good little things Joel does are all well and good, but in the big picture we are playing crap football with him in the side, getting smashed against middle of the road sides and barely scraping by against crap sides.
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You don't get a good feel of it off the tv because you get limited view of the field
Infamy, I agree with you on this 100%+. I have said this many times over the years.
The Tv only picks a small area of what is actually happening. TV coverage doesn't pick up the 1%ers, the blocks, shepherds etc. Johnson for example gets bagged for his disposal etc but there are a number of things he does that the TV just doesn't show. Schulz is another ...
Going back to your initial comment about Bowden and that "effort" in the final qtr in the game last week. I was staggered that IMO the first view of it on the TV doesn't make it look as bad as it actually was seeing it live and happening in front of your eyes. But the reverse angle of it fthe looking out from the goal square I think shows it for what it was.
I haven't made any comment (aside from in my votes) about that effort all week probably because I wanted to forget it. All I'll say about it is it was extremely disappointing, a bad decision and leave it at that
Scultz, he actually blocks his own self. :lol
He get in the road of himself, thats why he is down at Coburg
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What I am saying is that his presence in the side has had a negative effect on our intensity and consistency.
Stop looking at the little things, the good little things Joel does are all well and good, but in the big picture we are playing crap football with him in the side, getting smashed against middle of the road sides and barely scraping by against crap sides.
And you are not holding him responsible? ???
I had my glasses on. :) That 1st quarter against Port is the best football I've seen Richmond play in a long time.
Was a bad mistake by Joel, WP. I saw the look on his face when he realised straight away he'd made a bad decision.
There were a few other bad mistakes by other players as well. There was a fair enough reason in hindsight, I think, for one that lead directly to a goal from a dropped sitter.
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Here we go again. :lol
Anyone who doesn't agree with your constant Bowden bagging is called a "Bowden lover".
Not sure why you brought up Pettifer but he was 5th in 2006 and 6th in 2007 in the Jack Dyer Medal.
Incidentally, Joel was 4th both years.
Sorry, I'll accept the opinions of people at the club over yours every day of the week.
As far as you hoping the match committee and coaching staff see things the way you do about Joel, it's bound to happen eventually as he nears the age many players retire. They obviously haven't for about 10 years in the meantime. Me neither.
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And you are not holding him responsible????
How many times do I have to repeat myself? I'd offer to spell it out to you but it's already in text form, just try reading it
I had my glasses on. :) That 1st quarter against Port is the best football I've seen Richmond play in a long time.
You are still looking at minor details, we may have played well for a quarter but we played crap the rest of the game, Joel's icing the clock almost lost us the game. He wouldn't have had to take the match saving mark had he not slowed us up for the last 15mins.
We didn't have a single blowout in any quarter when Bowden was out of the side NOT ONE!!! Yet as soon as he comes back againt Geelong we get creamed in the 3rd 7 goals to 1, against Essendon our 3rd quarter also was rubbish 6 goals to 2, against Sydney, smashed all day, against Adelaide our 2nd half was crap 15 goals to 5, againt Melbourne 3rd quarter was 5 goals to 2, 4th quarter against port 5 goals to 1.
EVERY SINGLE game with Bowden in the side we have lapse and played poor football, without him our worst quarter was 7 goals to 4 against the Bulldogs in the last quarter, the 3 goal difference only coming in the last 3 minutes. Other than that it was no more than 1-2 goals each way.
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We didn't have a single blowout in any quarter when Bowden was out of the side NOT ONE!!! Yet as soon as he comes back againt Geelong we get creamed in the 3rd 7 goals to 1, against Essendon our 3rd quarter also was rubbish 6 goals to 2, against Sydney, smashed all day, against Adelaide our 2nd half was crap 15 goals to 5, againt Melbourne 3rd quarter was 5 goals to 2, 4th quarter against port 5 goals to 1.
EVERY SINGLE game with Bowden in the side we have lapse and played poor football, without him our worst quarter was 7 goals to 4 against the Bulldogs in the last quarter, the 3 goal difference only coming in the last 3 minutes. Other than that it was no more than 1-2 goals each way.
I give up. :o :gotigers
:rollin
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Good, you've brought nothing to the argument other than the fact you disagree
I consider it a forfeit on your behalf
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So what you're saying Infamy and please correct me if I'm wrong its Joel's faffing about in the backline and his tendancy towards the flamboyant is whats killing us as we try to drive out of the backline? The commentators love it. A Jink here, a fake there and then eventually a kick. I agree, Joel very often over engineers our play out of the backline but is there a purpose to it?? Is he waiting for players to push forward before he delivers? These are things you don't see on TV and as I'm interstate, for me, the TV doesn't tell the whole story positive or negative.
IMO Joel is a footballer who has never reached his full potential. His reflexes and agility are probably some of the best in the club but his lapses in concentration, even laziness at times has prevented him from reaching his full potential. Also that head ducking incident a few years ago didn't win him any fans either.
Honestly though, I don't think he's playing badly enough to be dropped. In a way he has been the go to guy for a lot of our backline movement and I think the reason for this is that the players around him especially the young guys actually have faith in him to do the right thing with the footy and generally he does when he eventually disposes. I do agree that he can be a little loose in defence at times but I can't see this as a reason for sending him to Coburg especially now that Polly is out indefinitely.
I don't mean to be the voice of reason in this debate but I can see merit in both points of view.
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Imfamy
the team has dropped off because simply because we are gettting smashed in the midfield with Foley & Tambling having quite games, Simmonds playing with injury not winning the Ruck contest giving us first options & missing key backmen, Browny not kicking goals he normaly would thrive on, Richo giving 50% & others dropping off but you consistantly blame Joel for being in the side as the problem.
Take your dark glasses off at the game, Joel is doing everything asked of him & his doing it well.
His picking up votes the last few weeks for his good efforts but your bagging him out
& Melbourne aint as bad as many think & beat a good Brisbane side
Why aint Foley & Tambling getting them votes Joel is picking up if his so bad as you say he is ??? why aint you bagging them for thier quite games or the 7 points that should have been goals from Browny
You want Bowden gone cause he holds the game up but its the players not running hard enough into space to play the fast flowing game you wish like other clubs, we dont run in waves enough like the Hawks & Dogs sides do & that is why we get covered too easy its because we are not fit enough or smart enough to play that type of football.
Richmonds main problem is the forward line leads & there is no wave of players behind to pick up the loose ball when its contested by the leading forward, giving the backmen as easy release to thier midfield which catches players out of position, you really need to have a whole overloook of where the team is going wrong not just 1 player in Bowden, Joel makes his space by his cleverness & players always go to him because of his skills & his good foot skills for hitting up targets. What really needs to happen is the whole team needs to lift & Joel will not stand out as much or have the time to hold the play up if everyone is running hard & breaking tags
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Good, you've brought nothing to the argument other than the fact you disagree
I consider it a forfeit on your behalf
Infamy - the only surprise is that he stuck it out for so long.
Are you familiar with the term "Data Miner" - it refers to people who seek cause and effect by correlating non related activities to arrive at pre-conceived and false conclusions. You blaming Joel for a myriad of score changes in a myriad of games is an example of it.
Joel played well last week. He is no more likely to be dropped than I am to be selected.
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We can save the season by losing every single game between now and the end of the season, leaving other clubs around to win games against us and against each order putting us in the best possible position to secure the best player possible in the draft.
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Problem is we WERE running in waves to support team mates when Joel was out of the side. It was our intensity that made such a remarkable change to how competitive we were. Joel comes back in and it goes.
I'm not just cherry picking stats and saying that they're all because of the way Joel plays, I'm just trying to give examples to support my argument.
Anyone who thinks we weren't harder at the ball and running harder to support teammates while Joel was out of the side is stuffing blind.
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Ohhh Ramps change the record! :banghead I'm not going to sit through watching our team lose for the rest of the season. I want to see wins. Its been proven in the past that high draft picks are still a gamble and plenty of stars have been taken between picks 5-10. The priority pick is already gone so who cares. I want to see us win no matter who we play. I want to read the papers and see the replays. I don't want another season like last year. Have a think about team morale. Have a think about how winning will have an effect on our younger players performance and spirit! We are a club that needs to set an example for our young players.
I'd hate to have you in the rooms for a half time talk. "Okay boys......lets go out there and loose again!!! Remember, a high pick may or may not bring us another potential star that may or may not reach his full potential in the next 5 years!"
Gimme a break!! Go Tigers and win everything you can. I'm here to enjoy my footy now, not hide in the shadows for 2 years in the hope that some prodigy comes along that will single handedly propel us into finals in 5 years time. :help
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Ohhh Ramps change the record! :banghead I'm not going to sit through watching our team lose for the rest of the season. I want to see wins. Its been proven in the past that high draft picks are still a gamble and plenty of stars have been taken between picks 5-10. The priority pick is already gone so who cares. I want to see us win no matter who we play. I want to read the papers and see the replays. I don't want another season like last year. Have a think about team morale. Have a think about how winning will have an effect on our younger players performance and spirit! We are a club that needs to set an example for our young players.
I'd hate to have you in the rooms for a half time talk. "Okay boys......lets go out there and loose again!!! Remember, a high pick may or may not bring us another potential star that may or may not reach his full potential in the next 5 years!"
Gimme a break!! Go Tigers and win everything you can. I'm here to enjoy my footy now, not hide in the shadows for 2 years in the hope that some prodigy comes along that will single handedly propel us into finals in 5 years time. :help
+1! :bow :cheers :clapping :gotigers
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Problem is we WERE running in waves to support team mates when Joel was out of the side. It was our intensity that made such a remarkable change to how competitive we were. Joel comes back in and it goes.
I'm not just cherry picking stats and saying that they're all because of the way Joel plays, I'm just trying to give examples to support my argument.
Anyone who thinks we weren't harder at the ball and running harder to support teammates while Joel was out of the side is effing blind.
and you say FishFinger brought nothing to the argument yet your blaming 1 player for the team falling down
1 player dont make a team & 1 player does not cause a team to play a certain way,
what are you putting into this argument is that you dont like Joel as the player he is & l think Joel would excell at another club for example Geelong, cause they are hard runners which we are not & need to learn to become harder runners to win games.
The coach has no game plan or bothered to change the game plan coming out of the backline cause he dont know any better himself :rollin thats why & they keep going back to old style cause they dont know any other way & the only way that will change if the coach instructs it differently
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Ohhh Ramps change the record! :banghead I'm not going to sit through watching our team lose for the rest of the season. I want to see wins. Its been proven in the past that high draft picks are still a gamble and plenty of stars have been taken between picks 5-10. The priority pick is already gone so who cares. I want to see us win no matter who we play. I want to read the papers and see the replays. I don't want another season like last year. Have a think about team morale. Have a think about how winning will have an effect on our younger players performance and spirit! We are a club that needs to set an example for our young players.
I'd hate to have you in the rooms for a half time talk. "Okay boys......lets go out there and loose again!!! Remember, a high pick may or may not bring us another potential star that may or may not reach his full potential in the next 5 years!"
Gimme a break!! Go Tigers and win everything you can. I'm here to enjoy my footy now, not hide in the shadows for 2 years in the hope that some prodigy comes along that will single handedly propel us into finals in 5 years time. :help
knowing out luck we recruit another Pettifer or worse Lounder
l want the club to win games l'm tired of feeling gutted after many years
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and you say FishFinger brought nothing to the argument yet your blaming 1 player for the team falling down
1 player dont make a team & 1 player does not cause a team to play a certain way,
what are you putting into this argument is that you dont like Joel as the player he is & l think Joel would excell at another club for example Geelong, cause they are hard runners which we are not & need to learn to become harder runners to win games.
The coach has no game plan or bothered to change the game plan coming out of the backline cause he dont know any better himself :rollin thats why & they keep going back to old style cause they dont know any other way & the only way that will change if the coach instructs it differently
This has nothing to do with the fact I don't "like" Joel, this is the first year that I've wanted Joel out of the side, I've NEVER gunned for him before. I think he deserved his Jack Dyer medals and deserved his AA selections, but this year I can see that he's holding the side back. I'm also happy to admit that I'm wrong, if Joel gets dropped from the side and we don't lift our intensity then I'll be proven wrong and I'll be more than happy to apologise. If we get back our intensity with him still in the side then I'll also admit my error and apologies. There has been a massive anomoly in the intensity of our side since Joel was dropped and then came back again, I'd like to see if that is a coincidence or not. I'm generally very supportive of our players, you won't see me gunning for any of our kids, including JON, but when I see a senior player who I believe is having a negative effect on our side then I'll call it.
It was all over the media that we dropped Petts, Tivendale & Bowden and all of a sudden the Tigers looked threatening. We brought some back and that form dropped with it. Bowden remains and the form hasn't come back either. Maybe the week before the Port game there was an article about how our backline is more attacking and unpredictable now we have young kids taking the game on rather than Bowden kicking sideways. This is hardly a conspiracy theory, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that it's very likely. There's been plenty of rumours out of the club about Joel not being able to take critisism and how there are factions between the players. Most of the old farts are gone, really only Joel & Tiv remain as Johnson & Brown were imports and I could never imagine Richo giving two poohs about that sort of crap.
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Was a bad mistake by Joel, WP. I saw the look on his face when he realised straight away he'd made a bad decision.
There were a few other bad mistakes by other players as well. There was a fair enough reason in hindsight, I think, for one that lead directly to a goal from a dropped sitter.
Agree Fish, the "squib" pass to Morton that happened in earlier in the last qtr by the other player mentioned in this threads title (Hyde) was a shocker as well. That was a crucial turn over IMV Carlton got a goal from that and heads dropped and then the snowball effect took over
As we've all said before ..... Bad decisions and poor skills....
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Ohhh Ramps change the record! :banghead
:lol
NO ;D
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Ohhh Ramps change the record! :banghead I'm not going to sit through watching our team lose for the rest of the season. I want to see wins. Its been proven in the past that high draft picks are still a gamble and plenty of stars have been taken between picks 5-10. The priority pick is already gone so who cares. I want to see us win no matter who we play. I want to read the papers and see the replays. I don't want another season like last year. Have a think about team morale. Have a think about how winning will have an effect on our younger players performance and spirit! We are a club that needs to set an example for our young players.
I'd hate to have you in the rooms for a half time talk. "Okay boys......lets go out there and loose again!!! Remember, a high pick may or may not bring us another potential star that may or may not reach his full potential in the next 5 years!"
Gimme a break!! Go Tigers and win everything you can. I'm here to enjoy my footy now, not hide in the shadows for 2 years in the hope that some prodigy comes along that will single handedly propel us into finals in 5 years time. :help
knowing out luck we recruit another Pettifer or worse Lounder
l want the club to win games l'm tired of feeling gutted after many years
or another tambling
FFs get off bowden's back. There are about a dozen players worse than him over the weekend..
ill start with tambling, patto, foley and kingy..
i would never ever put bowden in the same league as pathetic pettifer. That guy has brought nothing but weakness to our club, whereas bowden does what is required and thensome.
moving right along
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I did a ladder predictor last night, if we play our cards right and some other games go our way, we can finish 15th :lol
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Bowden is in our top 5 performers at present & anyone thinking that our game is based around him is deluded. Bowden has been patching up key positions now for years & its about time people let him play his football & not criticise him. Its not easy being chucked around the ground to cover for this & that position.
If Joel was put up for trade, he would be one of the most sort after player by every other club, his still got at least 3 to 4 years in him the way his getting the ball. If he left the club it would be a shame he had to play for someone else & prove his all talent. his got alot of honors playing football, you dont get much higher than All Australian, & dual back to back JD medals, his averaging 30+ possessions lately & that is still not enough for some supporters who must bag him out cause they think we be a better side without him. if the other players pulled themselves together & grew some balls, we be in a better position like the Hawks, Bulldogs, Brisbane, Adelaide & Carlton who have all rebuilt after hitting rock bottom. We have the players, its just they need to learn to jell together better & put in alittle extra instead of thinking its going to get given to them after 50 games of football they may all find they will become 200 game nothings fast
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if Joel gets dropped from the side and we don't lift our intensity then I'll be proven wrong
no, it wouldn't actually prove anything
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Bowden is in our top 5 performers at present & anyone thinking that our game is based around him is deluded. Bowden has been patching up key positions now for years & its about time people let him play his football & not criticise him. Its not easy being chucked around the ground to cover for this & that position.
If Joel was put up for trade, he would be one of the most sort after player by every other club, his still got at least 3 to 4 years in him the way his getting the ball. If he left the club it would be a shame he had to play for someone else & prove his all talent. his got alot of honors playing football, you dont get much higher than All Australian, & dual back to back JD medals, his averaging 30+ possessions lately & that is still not enough for some supporters who must bag him out cause they think we be a better side without him. if the other players pulled themselves together & grew some balls, we be in a better position like the Hawks, Bulldogs, Brisbane, Adelaide & Carlton who have all rebuilt after hitting rock bottom. We have the players, its just they need to learn to jell together better & put in alittle extra instead of thinking its going to get given to them after 50 games of football they may all find they will become 200 game nothings fast
Oh dear, I dearly would love to see him shopped around at the end of the year. He won't get us a thing, other clubs don't rate him at all. Williams paid him no respect and Ratten structured their attacks through his opponent. We've needed to trade away a good player for years to try and get extra picks, so I certainly hope he can land us something like a 2nd rounder, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.
Richmond supporters really do have jaded views over the quality of our old players. It's like guys like Knights, Campbell & Free being considered such stars when at the end of the day they were career failures as footballers. They were the best of a bad bunch and Bowden is one of those. Richo was the only one who was a bonefide gun and still is.
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Bowden is in our top 5 performers at present & anyone thinking that our game is based around him is deluded. Bowden has been patching up key positions now for years & its about time people let him play his football & not criticise him. Its not easy being chucked around the ground to cover for this & that position.
If Joel was put up for trade, he would be one of the most sort after player by every other club, his still got at least 3 to 4 years in him the way his getting the ball. If he left the club it would be a shame he had to play for someone else & prove his all talent. his got alot of honors playing football, you dont get much higher than All Australian, & dual back to back JD medals, his averaging 30+ possessions lately & that is still not enough for some supporters who must bag him out cause they think we be a better side without him. if the other players pulled themselves together & grew some balls, we be in a better position like the Hawks, Bulldogs, Brisbane, Adelaide & Carlton who have all rebuilt after hitting rock bottom. We have the players, its just they need to learn to jell together better & put in alittle extra instead of thinking its going to get given to them after 50 games of football they may all find they will become 200 game nothings fast
Oh dear, I dearly would love to see him shopped around at the end of the year. He won't get us a thing, other clubs don't rate him at all. Williams paid him no respect and Ratten structured their attacks through his opponent. We've needed to trade away a good player for years to try and get extra picks, so I certainly hope he can land us something like a 2nd rounder, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.
bla bla bla :sleep :sleep :sleep
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bla bla bla :sleep :sleep :sleep
That's funny as every time I read your crap on here it doesn't get through my cack filter
Im not sure if you've actually typed "blah" or it's just my mind blocking out more rubbish
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bla bla bla :sleep :sleep :sleep
That's funny as every time I read your crap on here it doesn't get through my cack filter
Im not sure if you've actually typed "blah" or it's just my mind blocking out more rubbish
Shannon sounds like a bloke to me.
I wonder why his profile has him as female?
???
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bla bla bla :sleep :sleep :sleep
I believe Blah Blah Blah is one of my tag lines ;D
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Richmond supporters really do have jaded views over the quality of our old players. It's like guys like Knights, Campbell & Free being considered such stars when at the end of the day they were career failures as footballers. They were the best of a bad bunch and Bowden is one of those. Richo was the only one who was a bonefide gun and still is.
just shows your football knowledge is very low
Bowden was voted all Australian 2 times by a panel of elite footballers
poo footballers dont get in the All Australian side
just wondering your comment on Richo being the only gun ??? has he ever been named All Australian
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Early in this thread I thought I was alone on the "Joel is a good footballer" front but now I know that Infamy is in the minority. Differnence of opinions on players will always be a feature of football websites and none more than a Tiger one (we are known to eat our young).
I was tempted to start a thread with a pole (a simple one with a yes/no answer) to see if Joel should be in the side NOW. The trouble is it would prove nothing apart from we all think different about players. To me he is class and would be welcomed into any team. None of these "team did this or that" when he was in or out proves me wrong. Its a team game and any of that stuff revolving around a singe player is just guff. Hope he is here to stay for a while yet.
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No doubt that Joel has credits in the bank as a duel B&F and AA, and is in our current best 22 in 2008.
I think the key issue is whether Joel will be in our best side come round 16 in 2009.
His experience maybe handy should there be a genuine tilt at finals in 09, however it is also possible that a youngster may have also passed him by and that he is an 09 clogger.
If he is out of contract, I'd look at a reduced 1 year 15 round deal.
If he doesn't like it he can always hock his wares and receive the players market feedback.
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Richmond supporters really do have jaded views over the quality of our old players. It's like guys like Knights, Campbell & Free being considered such stars when at the end of the day they were career failures as footballers. They were the best of a bad bunch and Bowden is one of those. Richo was the only one who was a bonefide gun and still is.
just shows your football knowledge is very low
Bowden was voted all Australian 2 times by a panel of elite footballers
pooh footballers dont get in the All Australian side
just wondering your comment on Richo being the only gun ??? has he ever been named All Australian
Richo was AA in 96. He'll probably get in this year too named on a wing.
A positive about the side this week is there's no Hyde, Tivs or Petts. All are playing VFL.
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Richo was AA in 96. He'll probably get in this year too named on a wing.
A positive about the side this week is there's no Hyde, Tivs or Petts. All are playing VFL.
are you sure about that MT, show me the team
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http://www.searchingkangaroo.com/history/1996_allstar.htm
Richo was on the I/C.
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Tigermonk I'll start that poll for you to see Joels value around this site.
Stripes
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Tigermonk I'll start that poll for you to see Joels value around this site.
Stripes
i think joel still has value as a footballer for our club. There are other senior players who need to go before he does.
Not that it matters to anyone but Joel is one of the nicest guys off the field that you will ever meet.
im a big fan and it wasn't too long ago before people were calling for richo's head. Where are those people now????????????
Richo and bowden are richmond people through and through and for that i respect them so much
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Tigermonk I'll start that poll for you to see Joels value around this site.
Stripes
i think joel still has value as a footballer for our club. There are other senior players who need to go before he does.
Not that it matters to anyone but Joel is one of the nicest guys off the field that you will ever meet.
im a big fan and it wasn't too long ago before people were calling for richo's head. Where are those people now????????????
Richo and bowden are richmond people through and through and for that i respect them so much
So if Tivendale. Doesnt mean he isnt a fool we should have delisted 2 years ago.
Would be happy to trade Bowden for a 2nd round pick.
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Tigermonk I'll start that poll for you to see Joels value around this site.
Stripes
i think joel still has value as a footballer for our club. There are other senior players who need to go before he does.
Not that it matters to anyone but Joel is one of the nicest guys off the field that you will ever meet.
im a big fan and it wasn't too long ago before people were calling for richo's head. Where are those people now????????????
Richo and bowden are richmond people through and through and for that i respect them so much
So if Tivendale. Doesnt mean he isnt a fool we should have delisted 2 years ago.
Would be happy to trade Bowden for a 2nd round pick.
2nd round pick!! Now that i would consider..
Everyone has a price.........except cotch of course...