One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Stripes on August 19, 2009, 04:14:19 PM
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It can be argued (and has been continuously on this forum) that TW had his strengths - he was indisputably a great salesman and kept the media wolves at bay for a long time while he attempted to rebuild the list. Many believe he could be a good game day tactician and tried to be innovative.....but he also had many weaknesses which are haunting us at present.
So learning from the mistakes of the past what 3 qualities do you believe we need most in our new coach or more simply put what are the 3 things you think is most important for us to turn our list around?
Stripes
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Development of individuals skills, confidence and footy-smarts
Leadership, confidence and vision
Team first mentality
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you left out the most important option.
Other: (All of the Above) Votes 1. Daniel
Wallets biggest problems were
Hardness
Development
Recruiting(Old and Young)
you got to be joking "great game day tactician" you must be talking about the basketball game were you?
At buldogs perhaps he was but not at Punt Road. His record speaks for itself and IMO was the worst coach we have had since the 80's
thats why i never want jade as coach. first thing he did when he experienced a loss was revert back to the culture topic.
we dont need anyone telling us the obvious and looking in the past, we want want someone who can tell us how he is going to fix our problems
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It will take me 12 months to explain. ::)
Will say this though, the players had trouble understanding what was required of each them.
The players lost respect for him back in the latter part of 2006
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To my mind and with eagle eye hindsight, TW went wrong in two main areas
1. Didn't cull deep or hard enough when he started
2. Too many recycled players swapped for draft picks did not work out
The other thing I also made a point of was that players were able to put themselves in front of a team oriented approach. The good thing moving forward is just about all of these players will be retired/delisted this year. A new coach will have the opportunity to bring a new team oriented focus into the Tigers game plan, whether he will be able to protect his job long enough while the necessary pain has to be gone through is another matter.
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The players lost respect for him back in the latter part of 2006
Maybe a few did, but from a team point of view the 2008 performance would not back up that comment
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My opinion of him was TW didn't spend the required time teaching the group individually and collectively. He failed to expend the effort to work with players to build their game smarts, individual skills and most importantly - confidence. His coaching style mimicked his own style of play which won him the name 'Plough' - get the contested ball, spread, run and carry but what he failed to teach was the defensive side of the game which was reflected in our tackle count each week.
I think TW could be clever tactically particularly if he had a challenge such as beating Adelaide's flood or Hawthorn's Zone but you are correct he never spent the time teaching individual players what they needed to do to beat their direct opponents. His tactics were too involved and overly complicated and varied too much given the opposition or given week. I think if he had forgotten what other clubs were doing and found a team orientated mix of defense and run and carry style that suited the list we would have been much more successful under him.
Whatever coach we get next needs to spend more time with the group, understanding the group and working directly with the group rather than speaking to the media and watching what other coaches and clubs are doing.
Stripes
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My opinion of him was TW didn't spend the required time teaching the group individually and collectively. He failed to expend the effort to work with players to build their game smarts, individual skills and most importantly - confidence.
Would this opinion be based on actual knowledge or specualtion.
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The players lost respect for him back in the latter part of 2006
Maybe a few did, but from a team point of view the 2008 performance would not back up that comment
I thought he changed the game plan in the second half of the year (one on one)??
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He also thought that one draft (2004) was going to fix all our problems, when pretty much every year you need to draft at least 5-6 kids, rookie list NOT included.
2005 draft was a shocker, 2006 ok, 2007 we got Cotch but still not enough kids and 2008 we traded away picks again and picked up recycled players.
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My opinion of him was TW didn't spend the required time teaching the group individually and collectively. He failed to expend the effort to work with players to build their game smarts, individual skills and most importantly - confidence.
Would this opinion be based on actual knowledge or specualtion.
Just an opinion Chuck based on the development of some of our key talent and the call by the club during the later stages to cull his time infront of the cameras and instead spend it coaching the list. One thing that is blatantly obvious to me Chuck is the lack of confidence some of our players have had in themselves and how even within the short amount of time he has been gone, the improvement some players have already made. Just an outsiders view though in the end.
Stripes
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Thats Cool Stripes. :thumbsup
I dont want to sound like a TW apologist as no one is that dumb but I have doubts over our list and whether a large bulk of our players are up to AFL standard. Regardless of who and what was done with them I am unsure if the results would have been any better under any coach whether it be TW or JC.
However as you have said some players have started to come good since TW's departure with Edwards being the main example.
With a new coach and an extremely young side the opportunity will be there for the coach without too much old baggage in the list floating around.
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Demands hardness and fire from the playing group
Match Tactics, Strategy & Game Style
Team first mentality
These are the ones I went for
Leadership, confidence and vision
This would have been my 4th choice, but I think this would come by default if you get the top 3 right in the first place
Empathy, understanding and mutual respect with the list
Development of individuals skills, confidence and footy-smarts
Innovatiion and creativity
Important, but not the most important. Many aspects in this area can be delegated to others in the matchday committee
Promotion, media savy, attracting membership & sponsors
Purely a bonus, if the coach is winning he could be a grumpy old bastard like Mick Malthouse and no one would care
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would of thought leadership confidence and vision would start further up the food chain than the coach a good topic and poll look forward to reading the posts
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you left out the most important option.
Other: (All of the Above) Votes 1. Daniel
Wallets biggest problems were
Hardness
Development
Recruiting(Old and Young)
you got to be joking "great game day tactician" you must be talking about the basketball game were you?
At buldogs perhaps he was but not at Punt Road. His record speaks for itself and IMO was the worst coach we have had since the 80's
thats why i never want jade as coach. first thing he did when he experienced a loss was revert back to the culture topic.
we dont need anyone telling us the obvious and looking in the past, we want want someone who can tell us how he is going to fix our problems
Trust me Daniel, his tactics were very hard to understand, by all ;)
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Well this is going to be a popular thread lol :help. Waits for Stripes to be asked for an 'all of the above' option in his poll :whistle.
Main fault is Terry and Miller didn't cut into the list hard enough at the beginning. The comment about wanting to give the older guys some success initially as a loyalty reward when he started was sign of things to come and his biggest mistake. Losing Browny and Cogs was just horrible luck :'( and screwed up that idea. By finishing 9th and 10th in no-man's land we missed out on the juicier picks on offer under the old PP rule that Hawthorn, Carlton and Collingwood received.
His first (2004) draft we had the right idea with 6 picks in the top 36 (although we didn't make the most of our early choices) but the 2005 draft was a disaster. Just 3 kids (all flops) when we were meant to be rebuilding followed by just 3 in 2007 and 2 in 2008 was a disgrace. Just 8 kids in 3 National drafts because we traded away good picks for VFL standard players instead of offloading players for picks even when offered a decent deal. Not all Plough's fault either I might add. The Club as a whole from the Board down are responsible for the direction the Club took and the slowness in turnover of our list. What was done in 5 years should have been done in 3. It is possible to cull 3/4ers of your list in 3 years. It's what we have to do now :-\.
The financial pressures on the Club wouldn't have helped generate a pure long-term focus from the Board down. After losing $3m in 2003-4 there would've been pressure to put out a competitive side from the start in 2005 to help with balancing the books. Although people now bag Plough for being nothing but a salesman it was one of the reasons why he was hired in the first place. The Club was a basketcase both on and off-field. It wasn't someone to sell it to the masses to attract support and generate dollars.
Plough also misread the direction footy was heading and recruited too many small and light players with poor defensive sides to their game. The lack of draft choices restricted our ability to get the balance right with our list between smalls, midsized-players and talls. We only started to correct our lack of decent talls in Terry's last draft. The fact is the more things change the more the fundamentals of footy don't. Bigger bodies with natural smarts and good skills win out in the end in winning the footy. The game has speed up dramatically and you can't be slow by foot but it's more quickness of movement of the footy (which requires smarts and skills) that you need to break down modern defensive structures rather than just pure leg speed.
At training the focus seemed to be more on implementing the run-and-carry gameplan at all costs independent of and irrespective of the strengths and especially weaknesses of the playing group. A lack of hands on teaching and instruction both individually and collectively (agree with that big time Stripes). Errors at training were never pulled up - those same errors the players would display during actual games. Specialised development of our younger players was non-existent in the first 2-3 years as we know due to lack of resources as well as lack of hands on teaching. The weirdest mistake was over last preseason he changed things up despite our strong finish to 2008. Why change things that were clearly working! ???
This is not just about Terry but all Richmond coaches of recent years. I think they come to the club mistakenly assuming Richmond players all know the basics of footy (especially basic strategy). The new coach whoever he turns out to be needs to strip everything back to the basics and start again if he really wants to instill change. Clean out the older players excluding say Cuz, Richo and Newy so the coach is the voice to the young guys rather than passing down a poor culture from older players. Basically get on the park and hands on instruct players where they need to be, run to and kick to play by play. If I was the new coach I would write-off 2010 (without saying anything) and use the first 16 months as one long training, teaching and developmental period. A 4 months preseason isn't long enough to fix what is wrong with this current group as it goes too quickly. Prepare for 2011-2 and beyond as the new coach will have a 3-year contract. It'll also give the new coach two draft periods to cut deep and clean out at least half the list.
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MT, I basically agree
Wallace was instigating a game plan beyond there capabilty.
Similar to Walls,
Thought Walls was a great coach, although the players couldnt carry out what was asked.
I remember Wallsy telling me about "'rotating hot spots "" WTF. :banghead
the players thought the same, LOL
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MT, I basically agree
Wallace was instigating a game plan beyond there capabilty.
Similar to Walls,
Thought Walls was a great coach, although the players couldnt carry out what was asked.
I remember Wallsy telling me about "'rotating hot spots "" WTF. :banghead
the players thought the same, LOL
Walls also said we were too predictable under Northey and wanted a higher possession gameplan. That worked well didn't it :P. IIRC Beck became our recruiter during Walls' reign. A double blow.
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You cant go this week can you big boy.
Anyway my 2 bobs worth.
1)Recuitment for self interest - short term to keep a job, no we dont need two more top up players to make the finals - we finished 9th because we are stupid and the other sides lay down for better picks. (Hurley's not bad, who was pick 7 Rich ???) but the Big V should be a star! Make the hard decision for the best long term interest of the club.
2) Team before self - hardness sheparding, smothering, gut running, tackleing should be recognised as number one.
3) Get the right cattle, teach them skills and the right attitude - I think we are getting better here but the horse might have bolted.
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You cant go this week can you big boy.
Anyway my 2 bobs worth.
1)Recuitment for self interest - short term to keep a job, no we dont need two more top up players to make the finals - we finished 9th because we are stupid and the other sides lay down for better picks. (Hurley's not bad, who was pick 7 Rich ???) but the Big V should be a star! Make the hard decision for the best long term interest of the club.
2) Team before self - hardness sheparding, smothering, gut running, tackleing should be recognised as number one.
3) Get the right cattle, teach them skills and the right attitude - I think we are getting better here but the horse might have bolted.
spot on mate, spot on
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* Demands hardness and fire from the playing group
* Development of individuals skills, confidence and footy-smarts
* Team first mentality
The above three for mine because they are so important and link to together, one flows into the other, ito the other so to speak
Will also - add I think he played a favourites too much as well which makes instilling point 3 "team first mentality" nigh on impossible
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Have to agree with MT and Camboon here. Jack makes good points about over complicating game plans too. For mine I think we have a fairly strong consensus on what needs to be done to put us back on track and it seems fairly obvious to me so you would hope the same is true for whoever claims the coaching role. But I'm not confident this is the case. I remember for over a year I thought we needed to try Richo on the wing to make us less predictable and to give our young forwards space to develop (and I know I wasn't the lone voice with these sentiments here either) yet it seemed to take forever for TW to make the move.
Experts (and I believe I am not going so far in using this label) such as MT, who watch most trainings and can see patterns and obvious flaws, should be sort out and voice heard. If our list is used to never being pulled up for making errors at training, never practicing the 1% including tackling/shepherding/blocking/dummy leads etc and placing a very uncontested style, then surely this flaw needs to be made foremost in the mind of the new coach?!
TW to me seemed like he was a distant coach rather than a hands on leader. I think we need an educator and motivator which is leaning me towards Richardson and Hinkley over Hardwick now.
I just pray that what we discussing here is foremost in the mind of any new coach we gain for if it isn't we could see more wasted years ahead.
Stripes
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Demands hardness and fire from the playing group
Match Tactics, Strategy & Game Style
Team first mentality
These are the ones I went for
Leadership, confidence and vision
This would have been my 4th choice, but I think this would come by default if you get the top 3 right in the first place
Empathy, understanding and mutual respect with the list
Development of individuals skills, confidence and footy-smarts
Innovatiion and creativity
Important, but not the most important. Many aspects in this area can be delegated to others in the matchday committee
Promotion, media savy, attracting membership & sponsors
Purely a bonus, if the coach is winning he could be a grumpy old bastard like Mick Malthouse and no one would care
Ditto.
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Leatherskin Wallet is gone. l dont want to waste my time talking about where he went wrong
all mouth no action
THE END
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Terry would make a good opposition analyst.
I think he was more concerned with how to pick apart the other team's game plan than he was with developing, drilling and enforcing his own. It's a trap that many coaches fall into.
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where did terry go wrong?
well he didnt! HIS PARENTS ARE THE ONES THAT MADE A MISTAKE!!!!!
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Terry would make a good opposition analyst.
I think he was more concerned with how to pick apart the other team's game plan than he was with developing, drilling and enforcing his own. It's a trap that many coaches fall into.
no he wouldnt, he used to go home at half time. ;)
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You left out a good teacher. If you can't teach 'em none of the above will happen.
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We can blame Terry all we like and fair enough too but the RFC and all us fans were seduced by him and thought he was The Messiah and the media lapped it up.
He was what the club wanted at the time someone with a high profile from the Dogs and the media who was going to be perceived as a person whose status would raise revenue in the almost bare club coffers.
The most pertinent point was made by MT was after he initially kept us competitive to seduce us in early 2005 he didn't eat into the list recruited Graham when we could have picked up another youngster and after being 7-2 Brown broke his leg in rd 10 and the psyche of the club and all the momentum we had despite two horrible losses to Geelong and St Kilda that year had been halted never to recover.
The RFC and Terry played catch up since then and success eluded us. An early finals campaign in Terry's reign may have resulted in him still being coach. Furthermore we hoped Brown would at sometime return to something of his old spark which has never eventuated and eventually Terry fell on his own sword.
It is from these mistakes that club coach and fans must learn from and most importantly the club to make a right decision going forward in selecting the right person long term not selecting a so called Messiah for a quick fix as Terry was this time five years ago otherwise we will make the same mistakes again and history will keep on repeating itself much to our detriment and frustration.
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Terry would make a good opposition analyst.
I think he was more concerned with how to pick apart the other team's game plan than he was with developing, drilling and enforcing his own. It's a trap that many coaches fall into.
Yep his one strength seemed to be picking apart a specialised gameplan that everyone else had trouble against. Knocking off thge unbeaten Essendon in 2000, the keepings off game against Adelaide in 2006, and turning the cluster back onto Hawthorn in round 21 last year. The problem is picking apart a gameplan works only once and is too focussed on what the opposition is doing rather than focussing on what we needed to do and how we needed to play to win most weeks over a 22 round season.
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Adelaide 2006. ummmmmmmmm ;) :thumbsup
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Adelaide 2006. ummmmmmmmm ;) :thumbsup
that was a disgrace that game
i would rather have lost than dish out that garbage
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Adelaide 2006. ummmmmmmmm ;) :thumbsup
Taking credit for that one are we? ;D
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Adelaide 2006. ummmmmmmmm ;) :thumbsup
Taking credit for that one are we? ;D
Well, why wouldnt I.
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where did Terry go wrong?
He kept Schultz and played him!!!
I knew then that Terry had NO IDEA & all He did & said after that was fluff to me. I was never fooled by his percepted tactical nouse or game day antics were just a smoke screen to the truth. And that was that he was a self promoting love-me-do that had no idea when it came to truly seeing if a player could actualy play footy.
He NEVER put the team first ahead of himself!
And now he deflects blame like the coward he was and always will be!