One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: sugark on April 28, 2014, 07:19:18 AM
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Instead of singing the praises of Jackson, Hartley and co it's time to get fair dinkum. Outside of our first round picks, who has FJ secured for us that has had an impact?
There are reasons why the likes of S.Morris, S.Lloyd, N.Gordon, R.Petterd, M.Thomas were either overlooked for a number of years or delisted by other clubs, because they simply weren't up to it! What makes us think they are? I'm sick if watching S.Morris try so hard but overrun a ball or just fail to get to the contest or fail to be able to kill a ball only for it to result in a goal to the opposition.
FJ has failed dismally to actually land us what we need to be a good side, stop finding other sides rejects or overlooked players by all other clubs thinking we are super special in some way and find us some quick, determined, skilled, gut running players that want to run both ways not front runners who don't know how to defend.
Ken Hinkley turns PAFC around in no time whilst we labour in our own self pity recruiting plenty of the same type of slow front running players, we haven't landed a decent second round or beyond player in years so why do these people keep their jobs.
Dimma stop persisting with these no good for nothing rejects, why would we watch McDonough have a great preseason with some really good performances in the NAB series only to then be passed up for the likes of Thomas, Lloyd, Gordon, Petterd....absolutely bewildering.
Dimma, Dusty is a midfielder so stop stuffing around with him. I blame you and you only for trying to fart arse around with playing him off half back at the start of the season. Play him in the guts.
Why stuff around so much with what worked last year? Why not just persevere with the same style and seek natural improvement from our players? Heck it works for the Hawks. It's ok to tinker slightly but no need to reinvent the wheel.
Anyway I think I've made my point.
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Did hinkley interview for Dimma's job?
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100% agree with Sugark
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Did hinkley interview for Dimma's job?
Yes. It was down to either Hinkley or Hardwick at the very end. I really think the club wanted Hardwick from the outset.
I don't think that was the problem. Dimma came in with the right attitude. To rebuild from the ground up. However, like we have seen in the past, the pressure to succeed quickly takes over and short cuts that were said not to happen start occurring. The excuse that expansion clubs took the talent is valid but the club could have just stated that the rebuild would take an extra 2 years to complete because of that and I know most real lovers of the RFC would have accepted that.
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Agree in full.
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Griff
Astbury
Elton (looked promising in pre-season)
Arnot
Darrou
McBean
McDonough
I've only counted the years where we had more than 1 recruiter because it's not surprising we recruited duds with one bloke to cover a whole country.
2010 was a stuffing disaster. Not because taking a consensus pick didn't turn out Melbourne style but because we went left-field and failed.
Dimma has no faith in playing young kids and they just rot away in the 2's. Astbury/Griff if we were a fair dinkum club should have been shipped off last year. Dimma is forced to use them through injury and bang we have 2 best 22 players.
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Griff
Astbury
Elton (looked promising in pre-season)
Arnot
Darrou
McBean
McDonough
I've only counted the years where we had more than 1 recruiter because it's not surprising we recruited duds with one bloke to cover a whole country.
2010 was a stuffing disaster. Not because taking a consensus pick didn't turn out Melbourne style but because we went left-field and failed.
Dimma has no faith in playing young kids and they just rot away in the 2's. Astbury/Griff if we were a fair dinkum club should have been shipped off last year. Dimma is forced to use them through injury and bang we have 2 best 22 players.
:clapping Spot on as per usual tigs. Thats why its so important to give young blokes an opportunity to at least show us what theyve got. They wont all make it, but who knows some may surprise like the 2 you mentioned and from nowhere become best 22. We need to get games into guys like Gordon, Lloyd, Arnott, Dea, Helbig, Elton etc
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Posted this last night and is stand by it
First bloke I'd get rid of os Blair Hartley, he is ultimately responsible for list management
He is the one who recommends which type of player we should draft.
He is the one who recommends who we should target in Free agency
He is the one who ranks and rates those on our list and recommends who we should keep
As I said he'd be the first one I'd be showing the door
Yep Francis Jackson needs to held accountable but Hartley is the one IMHO who needs to carry the bulk of the blame. He is the one who recommends the types our recruiters need to find.
We lose a bloke with exceptional speed and is the perfect sub and what does Blair recommend we look for mature bodied defensive forwards... :whistle
He gets off way too lightly IMV
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Griff
Astbury
Elton (looked promising in pre-season)
Arnot
Darrou
McBean
McDonough
I've only counted the years where we had more than 1 recruiter because it's not surprising we recruited duds with one bloke to cover a whole country.
2010 was a stuffing disaster. Not because taking a consensus pick didn't turn out Melbourne style but because we went left-field and failed.
Dimma has no faith in playing young kids and they just rot away in the 2's. Astbury/Griff if we were a fair dinkum club should have been shipped off last year. Dimma is forced to use them through injury and bang we have 2 best 22 players.
:clapping Spot on as per usual tigs. Thats why its so important to give young blokes an opportunity to at least show us what theyve got. They wont all make it, but who knows some may surprise like the 2 you mentioned and from nowhere become best 22. We need to get games into guys like Gordon, Lloyd, Arnott, Dea, Helbig, Elton etc
Anyone listen to Dimma's presser? Almost in pain giving Astbury praise. stuffing loser.
Plus some of those blokes you list should have already been playing and we make a call on them already. How are Helbig and Dea still on the list and not playing? They either should have got games fed to them and they come good or they are duds and should have been cut.
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Posted this last night and is stand by it
First bloke I'd get rid of os Blair Hartley, he is ultimately responsible for list management
He is the one who recommends which type of player we should draft.
He is the one who recommends who we should target in Free agency
He is the one who ranks and rates those on our list and recommends who we should keep
As I said he'd be the first one I'd be showing the door
Yep Francis Jackson needs to held accountable but Hartley is the one IMHO who needs to carry the bulk of the blame. He is the one who recommends the types our recruiters need to find.
We lose a bloke with exceptional speed and is the perfect sub and what does Blair recommend we look for mature bodied defensive forwards... :whistle
He gets off way too lightly IMV
Hartley has too much power at the club. Wayyyyy tooo much. ;)
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Anyone who had anything to do with bringing PetTard to Richmond needs to be sacked. I bet Rioli was glad PetTard played yesterday coz he gave him two of his four goals. And I think they were the only two touches PetTard had
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Posted this last night and is stand by it
First bloke I'd get rid of os Blair Hartley, he is ultimately responsible for list management
He is the one who recommends which type of player we should draft.
He is the one who recommends who we should target in Free agency
He is the one who ranks and rates those on our list and recommends who we should keep
As I said he'd be the first one I'd be showing the door
Yep Francis Jackson needs to held accountable but Hartley is the one IMHO who needs to carry the bulk of the blame. He is the one who recommends the types our recruiters need to find.
We lose a bloke with exceptional speed and is the perfect sub and what does Blair recommend we look for mature bodied defensive forwards... :whistle
He gets off way too lightly IMV
Hartley has too much power at the club. Wayyyyy tooo much. ;)
BINGO
You don't know how accurate you are with that comment
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Posted this last night and is stand by it
First bloke I'd get rid of os Blair Hartley, he is ultimately responsible for list management
He is the one who recommends which type of player we should draft.
He is the one who recommends who we should target in Free agency
He is the one who ranks and rates those on our list and recommends who we should keep
As I said he'd be the first one I'd be showing the door
Yep Francis Jackson needs to held accountable but Hartley is the one IMHO who needs to carry the bulk of the blame. He is the one who recommends the types our recruiters need to find.
We lose a bloke with exceptional speed and is the perfect sub and what does Blair recommend we look for mature bodied defensive forwards... :whistle
He gets off way too lightly IMV
Hartley has too much power at the club. Wayyyyy tooo much. ;)
BINGO
You don't know how accurate you are with that comment
I know exactly how accurate I am with that comment. That's the concerning thing. :whistle
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I bet you were all on your knees for Hartley last year. Maybe not WP but the rest of you. He was damn near about to be knighted by most Tiger fans.
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I bet you were all on your knees for Hartley last year. Maybe not WP but the rest of you. He was damn near about to be knighted by most Tiger fans.
No worries pal
Have been blaming our philosophy for years now (Hampton, Petterd, Thomas) but since the elim final it was clear we are stuffed
Grigg well I though he complemented our list and compared to who we coughed up would say we are i front marginally
Adding to that I have said for 5 years FJ should have been shown the door with his mate Miller and Wallett
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I bet you were all on your knees for Hartley last year. Maybe not WP but the rest of you. He was damn near about to be knighted by most Tiger fans.
He did a decent job at first. Got well and truly carried away.
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if Hartley has made one glaring mistake it's not bringing enough genuine speed into the club, coupled with letting White go.
He's patched us up pretty cheaply given the compromised drafts over the past 4-5 years as the franchise clubs picked the eyeballs out of the talent whilst we were left to gnaw over the carcass.
Thank the AFL for that.
A lot point to Port but they bottomed out and got a couple of high draft picks bang on in Wines and Wingard who have made an immediate impact on their fortunes. Meanwhile we finished middle of the pack and picked up Ellis & Vlastuin.
Two solid foot soldiers but not bonafide guns.
If he is to stick around, Hartley has the need for speed. In saying that it may well be time for a fresh set of eyes in that role.
The time for moneyball is over. Time to focus on the draft and 'free' agency.
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I know exactly how accurate I am with that comment. That's the concerning thing. :whistle
And I too know how accurate you are with it and agree that's the concerning thing
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Injured/resting key players, others out of position. Obviously tanking woah :shh
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I know exactly how accurate I am with that comment. That's the concerning thing. :whistle
And I too know how accurate you are with it and agree that's the concerning thing
:banghead :banghead
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I bet you were all on your knees for Hartley last year. Maybe not WP but the rest of you. He was damn near about to be knighted by most Tiger fans.
There's certainly one or two usernames here I recognise from a certain other board that were among the most vocal of the lynch mob that ran poor old claw of said board for daring to express doubts about the Blair & FJ "dreamteam".
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I bet you were all on your knees for Hartley last year. Maybe not WP but the rest of you. He was damn near about to be knighted by most Tiger fans.
There's certainly one or two usernames here I recognise from a certain other board that were among the most vocal of the lynch mob that ran poor old claw of said board for daring to express doubts about the Blair & FJ "dreamteam".
I'm sure this is directed at me. They were doing their job at first. Not sure how the current situation came about. FJ needs to grow a pair and tell Blair to stuff off. Dimma's ideas of what types of player he wants are stupid as well.
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FJ is the problem.
I cant see how you can turn over management and still have this hack on the payroll.
he learnt off Miller FFS. That should have been enough to show him the door.
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FJ is the problem.
I cant see how you can turn over management and still have this hack on the payroll.
FJ's record (since he got some help) would look a lot better if the players he picked were given a chance.
All recruiters have stuff ups.
2009 is looking pretty good. Martin, Griffiths, Astbury. Add Grimes to that because not sure you can blame FJ for his injuries. Dea is better than Morris too if given the same chances. That year he was forced to go tall after the first pick due to the Wallace years of wanting skinny flankers.
2010 is a disgrace. I don't even care about the Conca v Heppell thing. Conca is still a solid player. Batch over Parker was always and will always be a mistake. Parker would be our captain by now.
2011 with Ellis and Elton is fine. Elton will take time. Arnot is looking solid though should have played earlier. Darrou is talented off the rookie list.
2012 we should end up with 3 x 200 gamers possibly 4. (Though I don't trust our development of a project like McIntosh)
2013 has Lennon who will be better than a lot above him. Gordon and Lloyd were perfect for what we need and are showing a bit in a poo team. I was ok with trading our 2nd pick for a back-up ruck in a crap draft until one of my favorites went at that exact pick. :banghead
There are some issues going on in this regard though and FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking.
FJ had finally worked out the types to recruit as rookie picks. KPD's/Rucks/Small forwards and then some moron decides that we should pick up the offcuts of bottom teams. He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson for that matter. But every new player gets lumped in as his fault.
Dimma needs to get over his penchant for slow, tough players and hatred of players with flair and speed. Maybe FJ should just pick them anyway but then we all know they'd just rot in the 2's because Dimma would play Petterd or Grigg over them.
I will add he also needs to get over himself and bring some more sets of eyes in. Isn't that what we pay the FTF for?
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I bet you were all on your knees for Hartley last year. Maybe not WP but the rest of you. He was damn near about to be knighted by most Tiger fans.
I was being attacked the last 2 years by Hartley fans because I never rated Grigg or Houli or most of the players he has brought to the club. The people singing his praises are the apologists who believe anything the club tells them.
HARTLEY - OUT!
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I bet you were all on your knees for Hartley last year. Maybe not WP but the rest of you. He was damn near about to be knighted by most Tiger fans.
I was being attacked the last 2 years by Hartley fans because I never rated Grigg or Houli or most of the playershe has brought to the club. The people singing his praises are the apologists who believe anything the club tells them.
HARTLEY - OUT!
Houli and Grigg were upgrades on what we had. Likewise Maric and we gave up peanuts for them. We have had 2 problems since.
1. Hartley seems to do what he wants and makes trades to justify his job.
2. We decided Houli and Grigg were good enough for the ultimate and didn't bother trying to upgrade them. We upgraded from the McMuffins to the Grigg's and now it's time to upgrade to an actual B-grade role player.
The other one was Hampson. Dimma doesn't believe in developing our own rucks. (maybe we can't?) Funny thing is he's not alone meaning young rucks can be got for value picks. Darcy Cameron should have been drafted last year. We should have developed one years ago so that we didn't need to get Hampson. We left ourselves in a position that we were absolutely desperate to get one.
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We downgraded from the McMuffins to the Grigg's
Fixed.
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Any person at Richmond who seriously believed that recruiting Grigg & co would take Richmond to a Premiership has no place at our club IMHO. Seriously our club is a mess, the whole philosophy of the joint is up the creek. We are a powerhouse club with fantastic facilities and no debt and instead of going out and getting A graders in we go for Monkeyball and recruiting rejects from other clubs its just a sick joke on behalf of the club against the members and supporters of the club who put in their hard earned every year to pay for the salaries of the administrators and players its a stuffen joke.
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We downgraded from the McMuffins to the Grigg's
Fixed.
:lol that's what happens when you gift guys a game with no fear of being dropped. They go from being an upgrade to a downgrade. We literally have not recruited one wingman over the years (excluding Ellis who plays on the other wing) to replace him or at least put pressure on him. He's a fairy. :lol
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Any person at Richmond who seriously believed that recruiting Grigg & co would take Richmond to a Premiership has no place at our club IMHO. Seriously our club is a mess, the whole philosophy of the joint is up the creek. We are a powerhouse club with fantastic facilities and no debt and instead of going out and getting A graders in we go for Monkeyball and recruiting rejects from other clubs its just a sick joke on behalf of the club against the members and supporters of the club who put in their hard earned every year to pay for the salaries of the administrators and players its a stuffen joke.
:clapping :clapping
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Any person at Richmond who seriously believed that recruiting Grigg & co would take Richmond to a Premiership has no place at our club IMHO. Seriously our club is a mess, the whole philosophy of the joint is up the creek. We are a powerhouse club with fantastic facilities and no debt and instead of going out and getting A graders in we go for Monkeyball and recruiting rejects from other clubs its just a sick joke on behalf of the club against the members and supporters of the club who put in their hard earned every year to pay for the salaries of the administrators and players its a stuffen joke.
Here, here!
Grigg, Petterd, S.Edwards must be dropped ASAP!
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It's easy to be critical, to sit back and pot the club at every opportunity. The past seven years the premierships have been shared and dominated by only 4 clubs, so anyone else from any other club could have sat back and trash talked their own side and eventually they would have been correct and start up the peeing contest how in their omniscient footy brains called it from the start. It takes bigger nurries to put them on the line and back the club in and publicly state so. To do so is just an invite to be ridiculed. At the time I thought getting blokes like Houli and Grigg was pretty shrewd since the best of the draft had already been skimmed by GCS, then later by GWS, and there was no way we were going to get competitive by shoving a pick 60 and 80 from a compromised draft into the side. What I don't like though is that these players should have been upgraded on. But really, what with? We haven't had access to the players we should have been able to in the draft, and nobody wants our duds when we put them on the trade table. Adams should have been a Tiger, but when it came down to it we didn't have anything of value. Shaw was better than anything we could afford to lose and they didn't even want Martin in the end. I don't really give a stuff about being wrong about anything and I can pretty easily admit it. I was a fan of our strategy a few years back and now I think it stinks. So I put my hand up there being wrong quite willingly.
I was talking to a Carlton workmate today and we were both feeling sorry for ourselves (not our clubs, they can get stuffed) and wondered if these new clubs didn't come in to skim the draft if Geelong, Hawthorn and to an extent Sydney and Collingwood would have been able to dominate to the extent that they have. They were strong before the new clubs came and already had deep lists. 4-5 years on clubs like Richmond and Carlton (and you could argue some others) were denied access to some of the best players. Given their depth they were then still able to trade and are still today a preferred target for players wanting to leave their clubs. Take the players in the 19-22 year old group running around for these two clubs now spread them around the other clubs who would have had access to them. Last year instead of finishing 2 points from 4th with Grigg, Chaplin and Houli we may have finished comfortably top 4 after a few years of solid development into guys like e.g Treloar and Mckenzie (just picked two I don't mind almost at complete random) instead of some of the others we have picked up. Give some of those players to North and Carlton and the 3 of us may have even bought down the Hawks and Cats a peg by now.
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good post dwaino, last 4 years have been the best time to be "in the premiership window" and the worst to rebuild, has cost teams like us talent to try and close the gap on the top sides. Like you I also thought we did really well getting houli, grigg, maric etc back then, think that was the right thing to do and it helped us build a competitive culture a lot quicker at a time when our drafting and development record was diabolically bad.. Problem has been the aftermath, they are still getting games and young guys are not being given a chance to take their spots, so natural progression or improvement has just stagnated as those mature recruits have peaked and aren't improving.
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What about freo dwayne
Or wce with a fit 22
Or port
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West Coast took a dive just before GCS came in and bolstered their list. Freo still might not win anything but shows what a good new coach can do to a side. Port I have no explanation for under my theory (more of just a whim that I was talking about with a workmate rather than a theory I strongly hold) other than that's what happens when you get the right people in. Then again they completely bottomed out and managed to get access to blokes like Wingard and Wines in the years following the boy band teams raided the drafts.
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All those clubs had a much better list base to work with, simple as that
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I know exactly how accurate I am with that comment. That's the concerning thing. :whistle
And I too know how accurate you are with it and agree that's the concerning thing
All this wink-wink, aside stuff between you and tigs2011 is tantalising and mystifying WP. I'm assuming that the pair of you are either well placed within coterie groups, or have had some sort of role within the club and are well-versed in the politics and inner machinations of the place. If this is the case, is it possible to enlighten mug punters like myself who don't know much beyond plonking our hard-earned down and screaming our lungs out on a weekly basis on what exactly you are alluding to? Please don't interpret this as me having a go at either of you, I am merely curious. If this stuff is too tricky to be discussing on a public forum I am happy for either of you to PM me.
Cheers,
Rolls
P.S. I'm at a stage now where I have just about had a gutfull of the Tigers constantly smashing my hopes.
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Apologies, shouldn't have posted what I did.
Frustration can make you do silly things :wallywink
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Recruiting, not playing kids, game plan etc etc.
It's more than this.
Players get better at other good clubs. Players come to Richmond and we wonder what they could've been.
If the players are willing to work hard, be excellent in their commitment, increase the standards, aim higher, demand more from each other etc etc.
This club has a loser culture that applauds mediocrity. Pats losers on the back of one finals appearance. Gives a coach an extension when it isn't necessary. Persists with the same recruiter that continues to underperform.
Why do youngsters go to Geelong and get better? We all gasp and wonder how anyone missed this kid at pick forty something?
Because that team will make the kid better more times than not. Everyone's helping that kid to achieve the high standards that club has demanded on everyone.
I don't know how many times I've heard Mooney, Ling & Harley during commentary say things like "well at the cats we just expected a player to do this/that as a norm". It was the standard. No one was "told" to fight for Gary jnr they just did it.
High standards are demanded and kids come in and know what's expected.
At Richmond they just think they are good enough.
They don't even know how to fight for a team mate.
They're happy with close enough. We are the "she"ll be right" club.
They celebrate a finals appearance like its a premiership.
We have a SOFT, loser culture. We are the egg team.
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They had a better base judge you say.
Mate look at the Pies
Grundy
Frost
M Williams
Elliott
These guys slot in and are ready made footballers
They don't use the money we give them, instead they line their own pockets with them
Matty White only 10th or 12th fastest at port says it all really
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FJ is the problem.
I cant see how you can turn over management and still have this hack on the payroll.
FJ's record (since he got some help) would look a lot better if the players he picked were given a chance.
All recruiters have stuff ups.
2009 is looking pretty good. Martin, Griffiths, Astbury. Add Grimes to that because not sure you can blame FJ for his injuries. Dea is better than Morris too if given the same chances. That year he was forced to go tall after the first pick due to the Wallace years of wanting skinny flankers.
2010 is a disgrace. I don't even care about the Conca v Heppell thing. Conca is still a solid player. Batch over Parker was always and will always be a mistake. Parker would be our captain by now.
2011 with Ellis and Elton is fine. Elton will take time. Arnot is looking solid though should have played earlier. Darrou is talented off the rookie list.
2012 we should end up with 3 x 200 gamers possibly 4. (Though I don't trust our development of a project like McIntosh)
2013 has Lennon who will be better than a lot above him. Gordon and Lloyd were perfect for what we need and are showing a bit in a poo team. I was ok with trading our 2nd pick for a back-up ruck in a crap draft until one of my favorites went at that exact pick. :banghead
There are some issues going on in this regard though and FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking.
FJ had finally worked out the types to recruit as rookie picks. KPD's/Rucks/Small forwards and then some moron decides that we should pick up the offcuts of bottom teams. He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson for that matter. But every new player gets lumped in as his fault.
Dimma needs to get over his penchant for slow, tough players and hatred of players with flair and speed. Maybe FJ should just pick them anyway but then we all know they'd just rot in the 2's because Dimma would play Petterd or Grigg over them.
I will add he also needs to get over himself and bring some more sets of eyes in. Isn't that what we pay the FTF for?
Interesting that you have outed yourself as one of the posters who pushed Claw off another forum. You seem to be continuing your attitude here with the above half truths.
Any recruiter must be judged on results, not excuses about his resources aside from which FJ himself has chosen to limit his team to what he calls a manageable number.
He was first employed in 2005 as a part time recruiter. I have already posted on here that even as a part time recruiter he should have taken Hurn and Swallow given their records from independent judges (ie SANFL coaches, AIS selectors, State selectors and AA selectors).
The FULL list of his picks (NOT starting at 09 as you have done) show that for the period 2005 - 2009 (when Blair joined Richmond) Riewoldt, Edwards, King, Cotchin, Rance, Vickery, Martin, Griffith, Astbury, Dea and Grimes remain.
Gone are Oakley-Nichols, Hughes, Casserley, White, Graham, Humm, Howat, P Bowden, Connors, Peterson, Collins, Kingsley, Clingan, Polak, Putt, Gourdis, Collard, Sylvester, Cartledge, Howat, McMahon, Morton, Post, Hislop, Thomson, Cousins, Nahas, Gourdis (Rookied), Browne, Gilligan, Taylor, Webberley, Nason, Farmer, Hicks, Contin, Roberts, Westoff, Polak (Rookied).
Of the players still on the list, 7 of the 11 were first or second round picks.
"FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking"
Of those picks above - all before Blair came on board after the 2009 draft - 13 of the 38 were on other clubs lists prior. Only if you ignore FJ's full record, as you have done, can a case be made that Blair is forcing FJ to pick mature players over kids.
"He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson"
I'm interested as to how you know this. I am sure that FJ has not come out publicly and bagged players we chose so therefore you must be a close friend who he talks to off-the-record about his personal/different opinions on recruiting. Or maybe you are FJ. Or maybe it's just a lie.
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Apologies, shouldn't have posted what I did.
Frustration can make you do silly things :wallywink
How many warnings is that.. ;D
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FJ is the problem.
I cant see how you can turn over management and still have this hack on the payroll.
FJ's record (since he got some help) would look a lot better if the players he picked were given a chance.
All recruiters have stuff ups.
2009 is looking pretty good. Martin, Griffiths, Astbury. Add Grimes to that because not sure you can blame FJ for his injuries. Dea is better than Morris too if given the same chances. That year he was forced to go tall after the first pick due to the Wallace years of wanting skinny flankers.
2010 is a disgrace. I don't even care about the Conca v Heppell thing. Conca is still a solid player. Batch over Parker was always and will always be a mistake. Parker would be our captain by now.
2011 with Ellis and Elton is fine. Elton will take time. Arnot is looking solid though should have played earlier. Darrou is talented off the rookie list.
2012 we should end up with 3 x 200 gamers possibly 4. (Though I don't trust our development of a project like McIntosh)
2013 has Lennon who will be better than a lot above him. Gordon and Lloyd were perfect for what we need and are showing a bit in a poo team. I was ok with trading our 2nd pick for a back-up ruck in a crap draft until one of my favorites went at that exact pick. :banghead
There are some issues going on in this regard though and FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking.
FJ had finally worked out the types to recruit as rookie picks. KPD's/Rucks/Small forwards and then some moron decides that we should pick up the offcuts of bottom teams. He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson for that matter. But every new player gets lumped in as his fault.
Dimma needs to get over his penchant for slow, tough players and hatred of players with flair and speed. Maybe FJ should just pick them anyway but then we all know they'd just rot in the 2's because Dimma would play Petterd or Grigg over them.
I will add he also needs to get over himself and bring some more sets of eyes in. Isn't that what we pay the FTF for?
Interesting that you have outed yourself as one of the posters who pushed Claw off another forum. You seem to be continuing your attitude here with the above half truths.
Any recruiter must be judged on results, not excuses about his resources aside from which FJ himself has chosen to limit his team to what he calls a manageable number.
He was first employed in 2005 as a part time recruiter. I have already posted on here that even as a part time recruiter he should have taken Hurn and Swallow given their records from independent judges (ie SANFL coaches, AIS selectors, State selectors and AA selectors).
The FULL list of his picks (NOT starting at 09 as you have done) show that for the period 2005 - 2009 (when Blair joined Richmond) Riewoldt, Edwards, King, Cotchin, Rance, Vickery, Martin, Griffith, Astbury, Dea and Grimes remain.
Gone are Oakley-Nichols, Hughes, Casserley, White, Graham, Humm, Howat, P Bowden, Connors, Peterson, Collins, Kingsley, Clingan, Polak, Putt, Gourdis, Collard, Sylvester, Cartledge, Howat, McMahon, Morton, Post, Hislop, Thomson, Cousins, Nahas, Gourdis (Rookied), Browne, Gilligan, Taylor, Webberley, Nason, Farmer, Hicks, Contin, Roberts, Westoff, Polak (Rookied).
Of the players still on the list, 7 of the 11 were first or second round picks.
"FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking"
Of those picks above - all before Blair came on board after the 2009 draft - 13 of the 38 were on other clubs lists prior. Only if you ignore FJ's full record, as you have done, can a case be made that Blair is forcing FJ to pick mature players over kids.
"He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson"
I'm interested as to how you know this. I am sure that FJ has not come out publicly and bagged players we chose so therefore you must be a close friend who he talks to off-the-record about his personal/different opinions on recruiting. Or maybe you are FJ. Or maybe it's just a lie.
lol I forced claw off another forum? How laughable. I've agreed with claw plenty of times and the times I don't I'm sure he couldn't care less.
I've acknowledged that FJ needs to get over himself and bring more staff in. He's added a grand total of 1. Whoopy doo but better than nothing.
From what I had been told FJ was merely a scout and had a full time job in 2005. I'll concede to your greater knowledge on who made the picks. What a disgrace that we relied on a scout to take picks anyway but that's another story.
2006 by himself he's pulled in one of the best in the draft with his first pick and picked up skinny flankers with the rest. They all were talented. None suit the modern game.
2007 Cotch/Rance and would have been Scott selwood. Again all by himself.
2008 looks bad but he only took 2 of them and some dimwit traded the pick he was going to take sloane with for Adam Thomson.
2009 looks good
2010 a look at BF would have been better.
2011/12 looks solid and to me he seems to be identifying the right types. Whether they develop into footballers or develop Mr.Tigras famous tigeritis remains to be seen.
Not sure why you've added guys that he didn't choose on the guys who have left or how you can blame him for White bailing etc.
Blair is the one who rates each AFL player and FJ and helpers rate the juniors. New guy rates the vfl guys. I've noticed some problems with that, which are pretty obvious, such as how 3 guys aren't going to rate exactly the same way. I think FJ marks too harshly from what I can gather and Blair marks too easy. How Hampson can come up with the same score as kids like Robertson at Brisbane is beyond my comprehension when as an 18yo Robertson is a far superior player.
FJ isn't perfect and has made some massive blunders, namely 2010 and his refusal to add more help in. I also think the system we are using to rate players is flawed. I think they should rotate the 3 appraisals of the AFL guys between each of Blair, FJ and maybe the new guy?
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tigs killed santa...FJ saw the whole thing.....he was hiding behind a tree....
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tigs killed santa...FJ saw the whole thing.....he was hiding behind a tree....
damn it. They're on to me.
As long as they don't know about the incident with the Easter bunny I should be sweet.
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Following on from my post in the Ellis tread, since the 2004 draft only the following players IMO would get a game every week at Hawthorn now-
Lids
Cotch
Rance
Jack
Dusty
Vlastuin
That's 6 players in 10 years, in which all are first rounders.
If you still think FJ is doing a good job then I'll go it in tiggy.
No one is more to blame than this twit.
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You cant get 1st round picks wrong any more. The media picks them for you.
This was many forum poster point when the discussion to draft Hampson came up. A first round pick will grant you a 150 game player in 95% of the cases now days. Gone are the days of horrendous picks like JON.
Its in the 2nd round, 3rd round and rookie draft where recruiters earn their money. Yet a few posters argued that trading pick 24 for Hampson was valid cause the success rate from round 2 onwards was low enough to bank on Hampson being a better success. Still to this day disagree whole heartedly.
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. Still to this day disagree whole heartedly.
...as did anyone wiith half a clue....
-
Following on from my post in the Ellis tread, since the 2004 draft only the following players IMO would get a game every week at Hawthorn now-
Lids
Cotch
Rance
Jack
Dusty
Vlastuin
That's 6 players in 10 years, in which all are first rounders.
If you still think FJ is doing a good job then I'll go it in tiggy.
No one is more to blame than this twit.
hes butchered 2 drafts. I've said that. He was under resourced at first. Not through his own fault. If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation. The you've got the under resourced development program. I.e. Non existent.
The whole club was a shambles.
All I'm saying is he's done a decent job with what he's had. Dimmas refusal to play talented youngsters has stagnated some. Not saying they're all good. I'm just saying they aren't all duds either.
I think we will find when it's all said and done 4 of the last 5 drafts will be good.
Is he the best recruiter out there? Not on your life. Is he a dud? No.
-
Following on from my post in the Ellis tread, since the 2004 draft only the following players IMO would get a game every week at Hawthorn now-
Lids
Cotch
Rance
Jack
Dusty
Vlastuin
That's 6 players in 10 years, in which all are first rounders.
If you still think FJ is doing a good job then I'll go it in tiggy.
No one is more to blame than this twit.
hes butchered 2 drafts. I've said that. He was under resourced at first. Not through his own fault. If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation. The you've got the under resourced development program. I.e. Non existent.
The whole club was a shambles.
All I'm saying is he's done a decent job with what he's had. Dimmas refusal to play talented youngsters has stagnated some. Not saying they're all good. I'm just saying they aren't all duds either.
I think we will find when it's all said and done 4 of the last 5 drafts will be good.
Is he the best recruiter out there? Not on your life. Is he a dud? No.
I have just given you 10 years of recruiting. If you disagree with any of the names or if I have been to harsh on anyone let me know your thoughts. But 6 names in 10 years of drafting speaks for itself. Not saying it's all FJ fault but most of it is.
Interested to hear other peoples thought on my list and the players that they think should be there.
It's no wonder the RFC is where it is.
Hartly IMO did ok early with the likes of Grigg, Houli, Chaplin and Maric but nobody said they were there to be premiership players, they should have been upgraded on by kids FJ picked up,in the draft.
-
Following on from my post in the Ellis tread, since the 2004 draft only the following players IMO would get a game every week at Hawthorn now-
Lids
Cotch
Rance
Jack
Dusty
Vlastuin
That's 6 players in 10 years, in which all are first rounders.
If you still think FJ is doing a good job then I'll go it in tiggy.
No one is more to blame than this twit.
hes butchered 2 drafts. I've said that. He was under resourced at first. Not through his own fault. If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation. The you've got the under resourced development program. I.e. Non existent.
The whole club was a shambles.
All I'm saying is he's done a decent job with what he's had. Dimmas refusal to play talented youngsters has stagnated some. Not saying they're all good. I'm just saying they aren't all duds either.
I think we will find when it's all said and done 4 of the last 5 drafts will be good.
Is he the best recruiter out there? Not on your life. Is he a dud? No.
I have just given you 10 years of recruiting. If you disagree with any of the names or if I have been to harsh on anyone let me know your thoughts. But 6 names in 10 years of drafting speaks for itself. Not saying it's all FJ fault but most of it is.
Interested to hear other peoples thought on my list and the players that they think should be there.
It's no wonder the RFC is where it is.
Hartly IMO did ok early with the likes of Grigg, Houli, Chaplin and Maric but nobody said they were there to be premiership players, they should have been upgraded on by kids FJ picked up,in the draft.
how many did u have when we flogged them by 60 and 40 points? Some of the others should have overtaken them but because they don't get games because list cloggers didn't allow it.
In hindsight we should have gone the slow burn because now it's starting to bite us. As I also said I'm not arguing he's the best out there. Not even sure he's the best at the club right now.
Agree wholeheartedly on the Hartley part. We relaxed on those positions thinking they were covered. When ultimately we should have picked a junior with them.
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
-
Following on from my post in the Ellis tread, since the 2004 draft only the following players IMO would get a game every week at Hawthorn now-
Lids
Cotch
Rance
Jack
Dusty
Vlastuin
That's 6 players in 10 years, in which all are first rounders.
If you still think FJ is doing a good job then I'll go it in tiggy.
No one is more to blame than this twit.
hes butchered 2 drafts. I've said that. He was under resourced at first. Not through his own fault. If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation. The you've got the under resourced development program. I.e. Non existent.
The whole club was a shambles.
All I'm saying is he's done a decent job with what he's had. Dimmas refusal to play talented youngsters has stagnated some. Not saying they're all good. I'm just saying they aren't all duds either.
I think we will find when it's all said and done 4 of the last 5 drafts will be good.
Is he the best recruiter out there? Not on your life. Is he a dud? No.
I have just given you 10 years of recruiting. If you disagree with any of the names or if I have been to harsh on anyone let me know your thoughts. But 6 names in 10 years of drafting speaks for itself. Not saying it's all FJ fault but most of it is.
Interested to hear other peoples thought on my list and the players that they think should be there.
It's no wonder the RFC is where it is.
Hartly IMO did ok early with the likes of Grigg, Houli, Chaplin and Maric but nobody said they were there to be premiership players, they should have been upgraded on by kids FJ picked up,in the draft.
The problem is none of our recruits get adequate senior exposure to help fast track development and that is not the recruiters fault. If team selectors continually pick guys like Edwards etc how are guys like McKintosh, macDonough going to get a chance to show us what they can do. Our seconds have been so bad that I feel they actually have been going backwards playing there.
So there probably is some truth in what both of you are saying.
What FJ is not good at is identifying good indigenous talent. There are guys with electric speed and great goal kicking skills out there that would transform our pedestrian forward line but he has not been willing to take risks by selecting them..
-
Following on from my post in the Ellis tread, since the 2004 draft only the following players IMO would get a game every week at Hawthorn now-
Lids
Cotch
Rance
Jack
Dusty
Vlastuin
That's 6 players in 10 years, in which all are first rounders.
If you still think FJ is doing a good job then I'll go it in tiggy.
No one is more to blame than this twit.
hes butchered 2 drafts. I've said that. He was under resourced at first. Not through his own fault. If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation. The you've got the under resourced development program. I.e. Non existent.
The whole club was a shambles.
All I'm saying is he's done a decent job with what he's had. Dimmas refusal to play talented youngsters has stagnated some. Not saying they're all good. I'm just saying they aren't all duds either.
I think we will find when it's all said and done 4 of the last 5 drafts will be good.
Is he the best recruiter out there? Not on your life. Is he a dud? No.
I have just given you 10 years of recruiting. If you disagree with any of the names or if I have been to harsh on anyone let me know your thoughts. But 6 names in 10 years of drafting speaks for itself. Not saying it's all FJ fault but most of it is.
Interested to hear other peoples thought on my list and the players that they think should be there.
It's no wonder the RFC is where it is.
Hartly IMO did ok early with the likes of Grigg, Houli, Chaplin and Maric but nobody said they were there to be premiership players, they should have been upgraded on by kids FJ picked up,in the draft.
how many did u have when we flogged them by 60 and 40 points? Some of the others should have overtaken them but because they don't get games because list cloggers didn't allow it.
In hindsight we should have gone the slow burn because now it's starting to bite us. As I also said I'm not arguing he's the best out there. Not even sure he's the best at the club right now.
Agree wholeheartedly on the Hartley part. We relaxed on those positions thinking they were covered. When ultimately we should have picked a junior with them.
That's sort of my point. If we had of drafted decent kids they would have knocked the door down in the twos with their performances but they didn't. The Moneyballers earnt their spots up till this year. You cannot blame players from other clubs for keeping our young kids out because let's be honest, they were better.
-
Following on from my post in the Ellis tread, since the 2004 draft only the following players IMO would get a game every week at Hawthorn now-
Lids
Cotch
Rance
Jack
Dusty
Vlastuin
That's 6 players in 10 years, in which all are first rounders.
If you still think FJ is doing a good job then I'll go it in tiggy.
No one is more to blame than this twit.
hes butchered 2 drafts. I've said that. He was under resourced at first. Not through his own fault. If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation. The you've got the under resourced development program. I.e. Non existent.
The whole club was a shambles.
All I'm saying is he's done a decent job with what he's had. Dimmas refusal to play talented youngsters has stagnated some. Not saying they're all good. I'm just saying they aren't all duds either.
I think we will find when it's all said and done 4 of the last 5 drafts will be good.
Is he the best recruiter out there? Not on your life. Is he a dud? No.
I have just given you 10 years of recruiting. If you disagree with any of the names or if I have been to harsh on anyone let me know your thoughts. But 6 names in 10 years of drafting speaks for itself. Not saying it's all FJ fault but most of it is.
Interested to hear other peoples thought on my list and the players that they think should be there.
It's no wonder the RFC is where it is.
Hartly IMO did ok early with the likes of Grigg, Houli, Chaplin and Maric but nobody said they were there to be premiership players, they should have been upgraded on by kids FJ picked up,in the draft.
how many did u have when we flogged them by 60 and 40 points? Some of the others should have overtaken them but because they don't get games because list cloggers didn't allow it.
In hindsight we should have gone the slow burn because now it's starting to bite us. As I also said I'm not arguing he's the best out there. Not even sure he's the best at the club right now.
Agree wholeheartedly on the Hartley part. We relaxed on those positions thinking they were covered. When ultimately we should have picked a junior with them.
That's sort of my point. If we had of drafted decent kids they would have knocked the door down in the twos with their performances but they didn't. The Moneyballers earnt their spots up till this year. You cannot blame players from other clubs for keeping our young kids out because let's be honest, they were better.
they should be better than an 18yo though. Problem is the 18yo eventually stagnates. The other issue we have is when FJ has made a mistake the club seems to try save face and keeps blokes too long. Keep turning them over.
Personally I think he's showing real improvement as a recruiter. Dimma from what I've heard doesn't trust youngsters in the team.
If we can get someone better than FJ in then pull the trigger by all means. I forgot the dudes name but the Geelong guy we have now having learnt from wells may be an upgrade.
-
Following on from my post in the Ellis tread, since the 2004 draft only the following players IMO would get a game every week at Hawthorn now-
Lids
Cotch
Rance
Jack
Dusty
Vlastuin
That's 6 players in 10 years, in which all are first rounders.
If you still think FJ is doing a good job then I'll go it in tiggy.
No one is more to blame than this twit.
hes butchered 2 drafts. I've said that. He was under resourced at first. Not through his own fault. If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation. The you've got the under resourced development program. I.e. Non existent.
The whole club was a shambles.
All I'm saying is he's done a decent job with what he's had. Dimmas refusal to play talented youngsters has stagnated some. Not saying they're all good. I'm just saying they aren't all duds either.
I think we will find when it's all said and done 4 of the last 5 drafts will be good.
Is he the best recruiter out there? Not on your life. Is he a dud? No.
I have just given you 10 years of recruiting. If you disagree with any of the names or if I have been to harsh on anyone let me know your thoughts. But 6 names in 10 years of drafting speaks for itself. Not saying it's all FJ fault but most of it is.
Interested to hear other peoples thought on my list and the players that they think should be there.
It's no wonder the RFC is where it is.
Hartly IMO did ok early with the likes of Grigg, Houli, Chaplin and Maric but nobody said they were there to be premiership players, they should have been upgraded on by kids FJ picked up,in the draft.
The problem is none of our recruits get adequate senior exposure to help fast track development and that is not the recruiters fault. If team selectors continually pick guys like Edwards etc how are guys like McKintosh, macDonough going to get a chance to show us what they can do. Our seconds have been so bad that I feel they actually have been going backwards playing there.
So there probably is some truth in what both of you are saying.
What FJ is not good at is identifying good indigenous talent. There are guys with electric speed and great goal kicking skills out there that would transform our pedestrian forward line but he has not been willing to take risks by selecting them..
agree on the indigenous part. There is a bit more to it than that but he needs to get better at judging character on the indigenous kids
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hes butchered 2 drafts. I've said that. He was under resourced at first. Not through his own fault. If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation. The you've got the under resourced development program. I.e. Non existent.
The whole club was a shambles.
All I'm saying is he's done a decent job with what he's had. Dimmas refusal to play talented youngsters has stagnated some. Not saying they're all good. I'm just saying they aren't all duds either.
I think we will find when it's all said and done 4 of the last 5 drafts will be good.
Is he the best recruiter out there? Not on your life. Is he a dud? No.
Which 2 drafts did he "butcher"?
Clearly you think 2010 is one.
To quote "2008 looks bad but ....", so is that the other one he "butchered"?
BTW both of those drafts were when he had the full recruiting team he has now excepting Hartley, so your under resourced is an excuse and it was his fault.
"If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation." Hmmmm
"FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking"
Of those picks above - all before Blair came on board after the 2009 draft - 13 of the 38 were on other clubs lists prior. Only if you ignore FJ's full record, as you have done, can a case be made that Blair is forcing FJ to pick mature players over kids.
"He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson"
I'm interested as to how you know this. I am sure that FJ has not come out publicly and bagged players we chose so therefore you must be a close friend who he talks to off-the-record about his personal/different opinions on recruiting. Or maybe you are FJ. Or maybe it's just a lie.
Waiting for an answer to those points which were the basis of my previous post.
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I'm still bored.... :whistle
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hes butchered 2 drafts. I've said that. He was under resourced at first. Not through his own fault. If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation. The you've got the under resourced development program. I.e. Non existent.
The whole club was a shambles.
All I'm saying is he's done a decent job with what he's had. Dimmas refusal to play talented youngsters has stagnated some. Not saying they're all good. I'm just saying they aren't all duds either.
I think we will find when it's all said and done 4 of the last 5 drafts will be good.
Is he the best recruiter out there? Not on your life. Is he a dud? No.
Which 2 drafts did he "butcher"?
Clearly you think 2010 is one.
To quote "2008 looks bad but ....", so is that the other one he "butchered"?
BTW both of those drafts were when he had the full recruiting team he has now excepting Hartley, so your under resourced is an excuse and it was his fault.
"If people can't see that then it's not worth having this conversation." Hmmmm
"FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking"
Of those picks above - all before Blair came on board after the 2009 draft - 13 of the 38 were on other clubs lists prior. Only if you ignore FJ's full record, as you have done, can a case be made that Blair is forcing FJ to pick mature players over kids.
"He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson"
I'm interested as to how you know this. I am sure that FJ has not come out publicly and bagged players we chose so therefore you must be a close friend who he talks to off-the-record about his personal/different opinions on recruiting. Or maybe you are FJ. Or maybe it's just a lie.
Waiting for an answer to those points which were the basis of my previous post.
yes the 2008 one. As I said he only chose 2 of them. And sloane would have been the third. And no you're wrong, he was the only recruiter that year.
I shouldn't have said the other part and kept it to myself.
As I was saying though there is a flaw in the rating system with different people rating different types.
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
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Last 2 years we have taken short cuts at the draft table and with trades and not continue with kids number 1.You can carry 1 of these blokes in your side but no more..Promoting Petterd mistake،giving Chaplin a 4 year deal lol،Knights 3 year deal، Hampshon coughing up pick 28. Wasting space with has been players on our rookee list to taking a kids spot.Thomas،Lonergan،Big O etc.I would rather loose with kids then this crap.
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
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RFC thought our premiership window was wide
Open so we topped up our list with players that are a temp fix and fill some temp holes. Now that the window is well and truely closed for this year at least, I expect to see some more kids getting games.
-
I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
I think when they head into their 3rd season of football they are no longer kids.
-
I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
I think when they head into their 3rd season of football they are no longer kids.
That's just an opinion Ramps. Most people wait till their fourth or fifth season to call them reasonably experienced.
-
I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
I think when they head into their 3rd season of football they are no longer kids.
That's just an opinion Ramps. Most people wait till their fourth or fifth season to call them reasonably experienced.
I guess it's a tough one. A player like Darling from West Coast wasn't a kid in about game three. A lot has to do with the size of the kid but would you have called Wingard a kid last year? Or O'Meara?
I guess 3 pre-seasons should be enough, especially the way the kids are groomed to be drafted these days from TAB Cup.
4 or 5 is a long time to have "kids" on a list.
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Astbury and grff 5th season or there about, still kids
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
Were you saying that our guys wouldn't get a game for them the last 2 years when we flogged them. Geez I know we are going poo this year but come on we didn't beat them with 5 blokes. I reckon a few of our young kids would look pretty good with Hodge and Mitchell showing the way rather than Grigg/Petterd/Newman etc. Put Brad Hill in our team and he'd probably be playing back pocket for the VFL team.
I reckon claw has this pretty well sussed out. 4 years for smalls and about 6 for talls provided they are showing improvement. Then you've got to allow for injuries. E.g. Conca hasn't had a pre-season yet and looks to have a lot of self doubt.
I think some we are hanging on to for too long and a call should have been made on them by now. E.g. Helbig. Should have been fed games in his inside mid role and he either shows something and we persist until he matures or we go the old dud delist thing. Another is Dea who I actually really like. He's exactly what we are trying to turn Morris into. Should have been fed games. If his VFL game didn't transition to AFL, then delist him. Instead we bring in duds from poo clubs and prevent us from finding out and then we are too unsure about whether to cut or keep.
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
I think when they head into their 3rd season of football they are no longer kids.
That's just an opinion Ramps. Most people wait till their fourth or fifth season to call them reasonably experienced.
I guess it's a tough one. A player like Darling from West Coast wasn't a kid in about game three. A lot has to do with the size of the kid but would you have called Wingard a kid last year? Or O'Meara?
I guess 3 pre-seasons should be enough, especially the way the kids are groomed to be drafted these days from TAB Cup.
4 or 5 is a long time to have "kids" on a list.
I'd say yes they're all still kids. Star kids but kids all the same. Whilst we always see the really good stuff because they are super talents, they also have games where they do jack poo.
We unfortunately are relying on these kids to turn up every week because well they are our best players/only good players.
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Around 25 years old are not kids
This is why pettard grigg houli Thomas hampson types should be copping for stuff
Than lose in the younger age brackets
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The "kids" excuse expires once players hit 22 IMO. Smalls & mids should be starting to look comfortable and talls should be at least starting to really show something on a consistent basis.
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The "kids" excuse expires once players hit 22 IMO. Smalls & mids should be starting to look comfortable and talls should be at least starting to really show something on a consistent basis.
Agree. :clapping
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
In your opinion... it looks to me as though you are judging form not talent/skill. Yeah form is pretty putrid right now, but that's temporary. Personally I think they'd comfortably get in the hawks side in front of a couple of their fresh faced youngsters. Ellis more so than Conca right now bc of what he brings. They'd utilise his kicking skills and elite running immediately. Concs would have a harder time breaking into the midfield but they've shown they will move Mitchell to a HBF and drop sewell to give the young guys coming through a chance to develop in the midfield with senior players supporting them.
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
There are always exceptions to the rule with some freaks of nature but by and large, I would say with 4-5 preseasons under their belt and 50-70 games under their belt, their bodies should be at a level where they can compete with men week in week out.
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
Were you saying that our guys wouldn't get a game for them the last 2 years when we flogged them. Geez I know we are going poo this year but come on we didn't beat them with 5 blokes. I reckon a few of our young kids would look pretty good with Hodge and Mitchell showing the way rather than Grigg/Petterd/Newman etc. Put Brad Hill in our team and he'd probably be playing back pocket for the VFL team.
I reckon claw has this pretty well sussed out. 4 years for smalls and about 6 for talls provided they are showing improvement. Then you've got to allow for injuries. E.g. Conca hasn't had a pre-season yet and looks to have a lot of self doubt.
I think some we are hanging on to for too long and a call should have been made on them by now. E.g. Helbig. Should have been fed games in his inside mid role and he either shows something and we persist until he matures or we go the old dud delist thing. Another is Dea who I actually really like. He's exactly what we are trying to turn Morris into. Should have been fed games. If his VFL game didn't transition to AFL, then delist him. Instead we bring in duds from poo clubs and prevent us from finding out and then we are too unsure about whether to cut or keep.
I agree with all of that.
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
In your opinion... it looks to me as though you are judging form not talent/skill. Yeah form is pretty putrid right now, but that's temporary. Personally I think they'd comfortably get in the hawks side in front of a couple of their fresh faced youngsters. Ellis more so than Conca right now bc of what he brings. They'd utilise his kicking skills and elite running immediately. Concs would have a harder time breaking into the midfield but they shown they will move Mitchell to a HBF and drop sewell to give the young guys coming through a chance to develop with senior players supporting them.
To be honest I don't think either are very skillful. Conca more so than Ellis but I'd play Conca ahead of Ellis everyday of the week. Both fumble way to much and both foot skills are hidden by the way they both play. Reece gets it onto his boot anyway he can to go forward and Ellis short passes it sideways and backwards most of the time or down the line to a contest. I'm not just saying this from this year either, I felt the same since they both started.
I know people see Ellis get 25 touches and think he is making a difference but I ask you to take a really hard look at what he does with them. Just my opinion but until the weekend people were starting to see what I have for two years. The mates that I go with have all jumped off this year after thinking I had been to harsh.
Anyway I know most don't agree and that's fine, we don't all have to think the same. :cheers
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
In your opinion... it looks to me as though you are judging form not talent/skill. Yeah form is pretty putrid right now, but that's temporary. Personally I think they'd comfortably get in the hawks side in front of a couple of their fresh faced youngsters. Ellis more so than Conca right now bc of what he brings. They'd utilise his kicking skills and elite running immediately. Concs would have a harder time breaking into the midfield but they shown they will move Mitchell to a HBF and drop sewell to give the young guys coming through a chance to develop with senior players supporting them.
To be honest I don't think either are very skillful. Conca more so than Ellis but I'd play Conca ahead of Ellis everyday of the week. Both fumble way to much and both foot skills are hidden by the way they both play. Reece gets it onto his boot anyway he can to go forward and Ellis short passes it sideways and backwards most of the time or down the line to a contest. I'm not just saying this from this year either, I felt the same since they both started.
I know people see Ellis get 25 touches and think he is making a difference but I ask you to take a really hard look at what he does with them. Just my opinion but until the weekend people were starting to see what I have for two years. The mates that I go with have all jumped off this year after thinking I had been to harsh.
Anyway I know most don't agree and that's fine, we don't all have to think the same. :cheers
Ellis WAS an elite kick of the footy. Absolutely brilliant. Now he's just good.
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Deledio, Martin & Ellis are easily the three best field kicks in the side. The only three really capable of totally switching the play with one kick.
Ellis is also the best marking mid we have. Even better than Deledio. Can play tall. The consistency & reliabilty of his marking last year was almost Royce-like. (yeah that's right I said it)It's a real weapon but unfortunately we haven't seen it enough this year so far.
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We are not without good young talent. We just need more, and less average recycled types. It's easy for Brad Hill et al. to come in and look good in a winning team full of certified stars.
I dont blame the club for bringing in Grigg and Houli during the expansion period. I do have a problem with them being gifted games and forgiven for soft efforts.
The players are trying this year, they're just bereft of confidence. Key injuries, which we were fortunately spared last year, have really exposed our lack of class. We need to finish the rebuild with more elite young talent. At least the draft will be uncompromised this year.
I dont think it will take much to turn us around. We just need to do it right. A coach with some balls and a some strategic nouse will help.
I almost want us to finish as low as possible this year, not only for the better draft picks which i think we really need, but to ensure that the entire football department is held to account.
Play the damn kids now please Dimma.
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Ellis can definitely kick the footy IMO. His weakness is his softness. Agreed that he has very good hands as well. I still like him as a prospect all in all.
We were actually a skillful side last year. Skills have looked much worse this year largely because we are playing terrible, stagnant footy and other teams have all the time in the world to set up and cover our players.
Our player marks a dinky little pass against the boundary on the back stuff, looks up and thinks: "stuff...."
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
In your opinion... it looks to me as though you are judging form not talent/skill. Yeah form is pretty putrid right now, but that's temporary. Personally I think they'd comfortably get in the hawks side in front of a couple of their fresh faced youngsters. Ellis more so than Conca right now bc of what he brings. They'd utilise his kicking skills and elite running immediately. Concs would have a harder time breaking into the midfield but they shown they will move Mitchell to a HBF and drop sewell to give the young guys coming through a chance to develop with senior players supporting them.
To be honest I don't think either are very skillful. Conca more so than Ellis but I'd play Conca ahead of Ellis everyday of the week. Both fumble way to much and both foot skills are hidden by the way they both play. Reece gets it onto his boot anyway he can to go forward and Ellis short passes it sideways and backwards most of the time or down the line to a contest. I'm not just saying this from this year either, I felt the same since they both started.
I know people see Ellis get 25 touches and think he is making a difference but I ask you to take a really hard look at what he does with them. Just my opinion but until the weekend people were starting to see what I have for two years. The mates that I go with have all jumped off this year after thinking I had been to harsh.
Anyway I know most don't agree and that's fine, we don't all have to think the same. :cheers
That's true, that's the beauty of this game, we all see it differently and have different criteria on what we expect and want. Form aside:
Concas problem and the one concerning area for me is his kicking, his ball drop is atrocious, hence why we occasionally see a shane Edwards type shank. He may have been fumbly early on but I purposely commented in concas thread at halftime on sunday bc I watched for his fumbling and didn't see it once, I personally don't see it as an issue and think it was more related to confidence.
Ellis does kick it sideways way too often (much like Heppell ;)) but I think he has great footskills just too scared to use them. I also think Ellis needs to work on his speed more, has great endurance but he needs to be quicker as an outside player to be able to break lines and give himself a better chance to utilise his kicking. I am now seeing his aversion to physical punishment on field, sometimes wont go which is concerning. Neither are perfect, but I'm backing them in to become very good players at this stage.
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Cotchin kicks well too at full fitness
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I almost want us to finish as low as possible this year, not only for the better draft picks which i think we really need, but to ensure that the entire football department is held to account.
Was talking about this exact thing today with a Tiger co-worker. A few cheap wins will get them all off scot-free. If there is going to be any change or even a single head to roll we're probably going to need to completely flop. A sick part of me wants to lose to Melbourne for this reason, and also that I want Melbourne to win a few games because there will be nothing worse than to finish so low only to be denied yet another top 5 pick that we so desperately need because under circumstances of priority picks, free agents or whatever Melbourne secure the first 3 picks of the draft. I'll absolutely spew if that happens.
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
I think when they head into their 3rd season of football they are no longer kids.
was just having a look in this thread and saw this. this is how i rate players as far as age goes. it does differ from a physical and player type rating. obviously smalls grow into their body quicker than mediums and talls. hence why i allow a different rating for judging when players of different types should click.
all player types fall into the same age ratings. i think it important to remember that age or maturity is a very different thing to experience or games played.
juniors - 18 to 21
development - 22 to 24.
mature - 25 to 28
vets - 29 plus.
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tigs killed santa...FJ saw the whole thing.....he was hiding behind a tree....
was he the one on the knoll. sneaky sneaky bugger if so.
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tigs killed santa...FJ saw the whole thing.....he was hiding behind a tree....
was he the one on the knoll. sneaky sneaky bugger if so.
How did you get here. I thought I finished you. :banghead :banghead :lol
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I think most of us agree on that bt, problem wasn't getting these guys, was a good move imo, but the fact we're still going down that path and playing these guys ahead of kids that should be going past them is an indictment.
Conca and Ellis would be playing in Hawthorns team imo, Ellis especially, they'd love his run/kicking skills and would find the perfect outside role for him. As for the rest of them, well theyre not even good enough to play in our side according to our coaches so no hope for the hawks. Just not good enough
Ellis and Conca getting a game in front of who? Both are lucky to be in our side on their starts to the year.
More delusional than Dimma. :thumbsup
simpkin and hallahan. What's obvious here with Ellis is that fans of RFC expect way too much from our kids.
Our two might get a game early but they would get found out pretty quickly. Nothing really against those two but IMO both have massive weakness in their games.
My other question is, when do our kids become adults? At what age do we stop using the 'we are to harsh on our kids?' Genuine question.
I think when they head into their 3rd season of football they are no longer kids.
was just having a look in this thread and saw this. this is how i rate players as far as age goes. it does differ from a physical and player type rating. obviously smalls grow into their body quicker than mediums and talls. hence why i allow a different rating for judging when players of different types should click.
all player types fall into the same age ratings. i think it important to remember that age or maturity is a very different thing to experience or games played.
juniors - 18 to 21
development - 22 to 24.
mature - 25 to 28
vets - 29 plus.
:clapping
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juniors - 18 to 21
Destroying phase - 22 to 24.
mature Duds - 25 to 28
vets , as in they need to go see one- 29 plus.
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juniors - 18 to 21
Destroying phase - 22 to 24.
mature Duds - 25 to 28
vets , as in they need to go see one- 29 plus.
:lol :clapping
How many of our players look their best at the first training session? That Coburg black hole has moved to Punt Road too I think. :shh
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just to finish here.
where i differ from most i believe we should retain jackson if possible. but i certainly believe we must add to our recruiting group where juniors are concerned. i really liked the idea of getting matt rendell when he got the arse from adelaide. would have gladly given him joint control and let them work together. we need to do something like this.
to me recruiting and list management has been ordinary and they are such vital areas im a firm believer that every 4 or 5 yrs there should be an independent review of these areasin particular.
yes im highly critical of jackson and i have been for a long while. but in saying that i reckon he has something to offer as well.
the other one that makes me angry is list management i dont know if any club can get it so wrong so regularly.
just to finish recruiting is about processes. within those processes you set out strict criteria for taking players i reckon get those criteria right and go thru the process yr after yr and you will not go too far wrong.
and finally imo jackson can pretty well be judged from 2005 to 2010 it is too early to make a definative call on the 2011 to 2013 drafts. i already have concerns about these later drafts.
05 - fail none left
06 - fail only riewoldt is a success s edwards is still there but should have been cut 3 yrs ago. they are the only survivors.
07 - pass. cotchin and rance are left. only 3 picks.
08 - fail only vickery left and everyone knows my views on that particular selection.
09 - seven picks, 3 gone, dea battling, griffiths and astbury not established and can go either way still. martin. this draft can still go either way of 7 picks only one has truly made it. i have my concerns and am yet to call it but i lean towards a fail.
10 - three of 5 left. conca, batchelor, helbig, imo this is a failed draft.
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Other clubs recruit & rebuild, we just wreck, root & destroy....
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Other clubs recruit & rebuild, we just wreck, root & destroy....
We get to this point and pat ourselves on the back over how good is that Grigg bloke and don't try upgrade. The bloke is best 22 till he retires. :banghead
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they never plan past barely being competitive and when the time comes to be a real club, they fall short....way short
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Other clubs recruit & rebuild, we just wreck, root & destroy....
We get to this point and pat ourselves on the back over how good is that Grigg bloke and don't try upgrade. The bloke is best 22 till he retires. :banghead
(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/301/3/2/lock_and_load__with_yogscast_hannah_by_robbie18-d6s63z3.gif)
(http://scienceforlife365.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/cherry-ripe.jpg)
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they never plan past barely being competitive and when the time comes to be a real club, they fall short....way short
:banghead pretty much. We should still be gifting games to some kids. We aren't there yet. We really should still be rebuilding this side. Pumping games into them and turning them over. Some I think will make it like Dea others I'm not so confident on in Helbig but they need to make a call on them. In fact they should have already.
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Other clubs recruit & rebuild, we just wreck, root & destroy....
We get to this point and pat ourselves on the back over how good is that Grigg bloke and don't try upgrade. The bloke is best 22 till he retires. :banghead
(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/301/3/2/lock_and_load__with_yogscast_hannah_by_robbie18-d6s63z3.gif)
(http://scienceforlife365.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/cherry-ripe.jpg)
Geez Geez not the Spudisms. :lol
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Wallacism & Spudism. Hardwick is their love child.
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Wallacism & Spudism. Hardwick is their love child.
Locked & Loaded was a Wallacism wasn't it? It's all just blurred into one big steaming pile of poo that decade.
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(http://s14.postimg.org/58vyoikwx/richmond_shit1.jpg)
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haha!
Holy smokes, is that a real snap from the infamous dumping?
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(http://s14.postimg.org/58vyoikwx/richmond_poo1.jpg)
:clapping :clapping :clapping