Your R1 Team to Meet the Blooz

[tigerfan1961]

Please list the areas that Moore is superior, then we can have a better debate.  I've given my reasons why I think McGuane is a sound proposition to persevere with - all you have done so far is demonstrated a dislike for the guy with no reason behind it.

where does one begin. pace, smarts, agility,  kicking, run, decision making. exactly the reasons why i want him as the running tall.both can be servicable as stoppers  but both lack size to regularly play kp.

Just goes to show then that your visual perception is as prone to error as you claim my stats are.  If you think Moore is quicker over the ground, more agile, a better kick and provides more run than McGuane then I'm not going to attempt to change your mind, just say that I disagree completely and leave it at that.

Agree

[Smokey]

okay so we dont rate him a kp, well i dont anyway   so what do we rate him as. ive given my reasons why i think he should not be played as a third tall.

I think they are both capable of playing the running half back role and I'm comfortable that of all the deficiencies on our list, this isn't actually one of them.  I just think that McGuane is every bit as good as Moore and has more upside.

[the claw]

Please list the areas that Moore is superior, then we can have a better debate.  I've given my reasons why I think McGuane is a sound proposition to persevere with - all you have done so far is demonstrated a dislike for the guy with no reason behind it.

where does one begin. pace, smarts, agility,  kicking, run, decision making. exactly the reasons why i want him as the running tall.both can be servicable as stoppers  but both lack size to regularly play kp.

Just goes to show then that your visual perception is as prone to error as you claim my stats are.  If you think Moore is quicker over the ground, more agile, a better kick and provides more run than McGuane then I'm not going to attempt to change your mind, just say that I disagree completely and leave it at that.

we will see how prone my perception is to error.  its served me pretty well up to now.
glass half full sums mcguane up perfectly.

as i said we are poles apart on mcguane.  i see no reason  to keep him  if im wrong about moore all it will mean is both have to go.
rance is another with some real bad deficiencies.  thursfield well  the big criticism is he just doesnt get involved enough.

as i said  moore  has been awfully injured it is a yr where he has to show 08 was no fluke.   he has to remain injury free  or he will find himself  without a club. and rightly so. the time at our club for hanging onto long term underachievers is past i hope.

as stated the sooner we can bring in the new the better.

b/ farmer            ******          newman
hb/ dea/moore       post        webberley/tambling

as stated i dont believe we have an up to standard fb  atm one of thursfield if he can bulk up or gourdis  lets try someone new will suffice for now.
which player do you propose to play mcguane in front of.

finally because mcgune does not have the tools to play anywhere else butas a kp  or even if i concede third tall  go thru and do an exercise  and rate him up against other players of this type at other clubs,  mcguane for me is a long way down the pecking order. he is not the answer. and to stop the debate between him and moore. moore may not be either.

okay so we dont rate him a kp, well i dont anyway   so what do we rate him as. ive given my reasons why i think he should not be played as a third tall.

I think they are both capable of playing the running half back role and I'm comfortable that of all the deficiencies on our list, this isn't actually one of them.  I just think that McGuane is every bit as good as Moore and has more upside.

fair enough your entitled to your opinion.
it seems that moore and mcguane will be in competition for that third  tall spot. weather its a running role imo likely moore or purely a defensive role likely mcguane is anyones guess. well thats how i see it anyway. you prefer mcguane i prefer moore.
with some luck it may be both are surpassed by a younger player. it could be gourdis thursfield and post will make up the 3 tall defenders who knows.

[Infamy]

To totally discount stats is as foolish as it is to totally rely on them. Stats play an important role in making judgments, as long as they are used in context.

To say that you should make an assessment based solely on what you see is truly flawed, because as you have said yourself claw, sometime we only see what we want to see. There has been much research done into the unreliability of eyewitness accounts, showing just how much memory, pre conceptions and suggestibility can affect peoples' accounts of events.

You only have to have a look around at the various forums and see the differing opinions on the same players to get an inkling on just how unreliable it is to pass judgment on a player based solely on ones perceived observations. Then there is there is the unwillingness of people to even consider their judgment may be clouded,regardless of the evidence presented before them.

i didnt say i treat stats as foolish. i treat them with a fair degree of cynicism. big difference.

I don't think you're that cynical of them, you're happy to cherry pick those that suit your argument.
Ironically the one you tend to use the most is player weight which is the most likely to be wrong.

[WA Tiger]

It will be interesting to watch the Blues play tonight and see their line up and game plan, it will also give us a chance to see how their forward line goes without Fev. At least we will have a sneak preview of what we may be up against come round one.

[Smokey]

rance is another with some real bad deficiencies.  thursfield well  the big criticism is he just doesnt get involved enough.

Yep, agree.  I've been hopeful of Rance all the way but I'm just starting to get some niggling doubts - I hope he proves me wrong.  And my thoughts on Thursfield are well known on here - you put it well - unless he can get more involved then he will be gone.

as i said  moore  has been awfully injured it is a yr where he has to show 08 was no fluke.   he has to remain injury free  or he will find himself  without a club. and rightly so. the time at our club for hanging onto long term underachievers is past i hope.

Totally agree.

as stated i dont believe we have an up to standard fb  atm one of thursfield if he can bulk up or gourdis  lets try someone new will suffice for now.
which player do you propose to play mcguane in front of.

I think Thursfield is our best 1st option at FB but not a good one in many cases.  I thought Gourdis showed a little bit last Saturday but he needs more senior exposure/game time for me to have anything like a worthwhile opinion.  The club has certainly given him every opportunity so there must be something there to work with.  In a perfect world Gourdis steps up and Thursfield becomes depth but who knows what will happen.

My best back 6 for this year based on my opinion of each player goes:

Webberley  Thursfield  Newman
McGuane        Post      Tambling

but as we both know only too well - all the theories and ideas will go flying out the window after one game.

go thru and do an exercise  and rate him up against other players of this type at other clubs,  mcguane for me is a long way down the pecking order. he is not the answer. and to stop the debate between him and moore. moore may not be either.

If I get the time I might try and do that - not to try and prove my point but more to see what it reveals - the findings might surprise us both, either way!

[MADTIGER2010]

My best back 6 for this year based on my opinion of each player goes:

Webberley  Thursfield  Newman
McGuane        Post      Tambling

Alot of people have Webberley in their back 6 before he's ever played a game. I think he'll be a while off yet especially with his build. But I'd definately have the other 5 in my backline Round 1 with Farmer taking Webberley's spot. I'd have Gourdis or Rance on the bench as the spare tall defender. Have you got Edwards on the wing?

[Ramps]

Id like to see us focus on developing a forward line throughout 2010. Griffiths and Astbury in the keys. Taylor in a pocket, Morton on a Flank, Riewoldt on another Flank and Nahas or Gilligan in the Pocket.

[Smokey]

My best back 6 for this year based on my opinion of each player goes:

Webberley  Thursfield  Newman
McGuane        Post      Tambling

Alot of people have Webberley in their back 6 before he's ever played a game. I think he'll be a while off yet especially with his build. But I'd definately have the other 5 in my backline Round 1 with Farmer taking Webberley's spot. I'd have Gourdis or Rance on the bench as the spare tall defender. Have you got Edwards on the wing?

Yep, as I said - only based on my opinion, nothing else.  From what I have read and watched (video, not live) he has a lot of attributes that will add to the defensive capability of the team.  The question is can he make the step up in class.  If he can then I think his long accurate kicking and excellent run will make him a good BP or HBF.

And re: Edwards - no, I haven't got him in my side.  I think he sits in the 25 - 35 region of how I rate our players and should only be depth this year with an upgrade to come at season's end.  He might improve significantly this year and prove me wrong but I don't see a future with him.

[the claw]

To totally discount stats is as foolish as it is to totally rely on them. Stats play an important role in making judgments, as long as they are used in context.

To say that you should make an assessment based solely on what you see is truly flawed, because as you have said yourself claw, sometime we only see what we want to see. There has been much research done into the unreliability of eyewitness accounts, showing just how much memory, pre conceptions and suggestibility can affect peoples' accounts of events.

You only have to have a look around at the various forums and see the differing opinions on the same players to get an inkling on just how unreliable it is to pass judgment on a player based solely on ones perceived observations. Then there is there is the unwillingness of people to even consider their judgment may be clouded,regardless of the evidence presented before them.

i didnt say i treat stats as foolish. i treat them with a fair degree of cynicism. big difference.

I don't think you're that cynical of them, you're happy to cherry pick those that suit your argument.
Ironically the one you tend to use the most is player weight which is the most likely to be wrong.

lol you will learn  that when i say i dont trust stats or use them much i speak the truth. i rarely use them.

just on the height weight  thing though. given that all stats are accurate in their content the height of a player  and weight are in fact  the most reliable.  there is minimal  variation. and they are not affected by performance.
in fact by 18 19   i believe  we have basically done our growing  we may gain the odd cm  up to age 21 22. when weights  are given at the start of each season there is little fluctuation. but like in all things there can be exceptions to the rule.

just on obsevations they are not based on one viewing we have had 5 yrs to look at  mcguane for example. over 50 games and constants are constants.

[the claw]

My best back 6 for this year based on my opinion of each player goes:

Webberley  Thursfield  Newman
McGuane        Post      Tambling

Alot of people have Webberley in their back 6 before he's ever played a game. I think he'll be a while off yet especially with his build. But I'd definately have the other 5 in my backline Round 1 with Farmer taking Webberley's spot. I'd have Gourdis or Rance on the bench as the spare tall defender. Have you got Edwards on the wing?

Yep, as I said - only based on my opinion, nothing else.  From what I have read and watched (video, not live) he has a lot of attributes that will add to the defensive capability of the team.  The question is can he make the step up in class.  If he can then I think his long accurate kicking and excellent run will make him a good BP or HBF.

And re: Edwards - no, I haven't got him in my side.  I think he sits in the 25 - 35 region of how I rate our players and should only be depth this year with an upgrade to come at season's end.  He might improve significantly this year and prove me wrong but I don't see a future with him.

i agree with the back 6 you have chosen with exception of moore and farmer im really hopeful the big bodied hard at it Dea is given  games as well.
out with the old and failed and in with the new we are in rebuild.

i think it fair to say tambling and post are a lock in for defense. if not hardwick has been  doing a bit of spin.

like you i think atm our best option for fb is thursfield. heres hoping hes gained some size and strength and he can become more involved. if he fails next cab of the rank would be Gourdis. the only concern with him and its a big concern is his abysmal kicking.

okay we have been thru third tall. everyone by now knows i prefer moore so this leaves mcguane out.

imo farmer is exactly what we have been missing down back. hard at it accountable quick smart  and decent skills. the one critique  thus far is he does not get involved enough or find enough ball. im hoping this will improve with time confidence  and experience. at 21 also i think they will give him every chance its not as if hes  still in nappies.

the last spot imo is between Dea and Webberley. hopefully they both get plenty of games. i think because of age, 21yo webberley will get first go at it.
Dea is a lovely size  has good foot skills  has a big leap. we are not overly endowed with big bodies or medium sized players down back.

this leaves the captain out  i get the impression that he will be used thru the midfield this yr but he is always an option to go back.

imo its folly to be looking at a back 6 we should be looking at a back 10 or 12.

talls in order of preference post, thursfield, moore, gourdis, rance, mcguane, polak,
smls mediums. tambling, farmer, dea, webberley, newman,  white, king, mcmahon,

one thing that does stand out we do have the numbers but do we have the quality. are enough of the numbers up to standard. that is the 100 dollar question. we are about to find out the answer. i could put a line thru half a dozen without flinching and still leave plenty that has me unsure.

[Jacosh]

Before peopl start jumping down my throat, i know stats dont mean everything but they do show if players are making improvements or not to a large degree.

While i dont dislike Thursfield i think you will find that the following stats show that McGuane is comming along better than him in most areas, so for players of the same height and weight i would take McGuane. I also think he attacks the player harder than Thursfiled which with both lacking in size somewhat is a big up side.

Thursfield, Will
Year   Team   Played   W   L   D   Goals   Averages  K   Hb   Poss   M   HO   Tack   FF   FA   Gls   Beh   5+   10+
2005   Richmond 6   2   4   0   0   4.0   5.5   9.5   2.5   0.0   0.8   0.3   0.8   0.0   0.0   0   0
2006   Richmond 1   0   1   0   0   1.0   1.0   2.0   0.0   0.0   3.0   0.0   1.0   0.0   0.0   0   0
2007   Richmond 15   3   11   1   0   3.9   5.3   9.2   3.3   0.1   1.3   0.6   0.9   0.0   0.0   0   0
2008   Richmond 18   8   9   1   0   3.6   6.0   9.6   3.3   0.0   1.2   0.4   1.3   0.0   0.0   0   0
2009   Richmond 13   4   8   1   0   2.8   4.6   7.4   2.3   0.0   1.2   0.5   0.5   0.0   0.0   0   0



McGuane, Luke

Year   Team   Played   W   L   D   Goals   Averages K   Hb   Poss   M   HO   Tack   FF   FA   Gls   Beh   5+   10+
2006   Richmond 2   0   2   0   0   2.5   2.0   4.5   2.0   0.0   0.0   0.5   1.0   0.0   0.5   0   0
2007   Richmond 14   2   12   0   0   6.4   4.9   11.2   3.8   0.1   2.1   0.8   1.0   0.0   0.0   0   0
2008   Richmond 16   9   6   1   0   6.6   5.0   11.6   5.1   0.1   2.4   0.7   1.1   0.0   0.0   0   0
2009   Richmond 22   5   16   1   2   6.5   6.9   13.4   5.8   0.1   1.7   0.5   1.2   0.1   0.1   0   0

[Jacosh]

Maybe if one of the moderators would like to tidy that up a bit if they can, i seem to have trouble getting tables to align on this site.

[mightytiges]

Got to have Relton in there.

B:   Mitchell Farmer     Luke McGuane     Will Thursfield
HB: Chris Newman      Kelvin Moore      Daniel Connors
C:  Dustin Martin       Brett Deledio       Richard Tambling
HF: Robin Nahas        Jayden Post       David Astbury        
F:  Mitch Morton         Jack Riewoldt     Relton Roberts    
R:  Troy Simmonds     Ben Cousins     Trent Cotchin  
Int: Tyrone Vickery  Daniel Jackson  Andrew Collins   Matt Dea
Emg: Shane Edwards, Graham Polak, Jeromey Webberley

[Judge Roughneck]

Farmer - Thursfeild - Moore
Post - McGaune - Connors
Deledio - Martin - Tambling
Roberts - Taylor - Cousins
Nahas - Riewoldt - Morton
Vickery - Cotchin - Thomson

Newman
Simmonds (Browne)
Edwards (Dea)
Collins (Tuck, King)


 * Foley (inj), Astbury (inj), Griffiths (inj),

 * Coburg / kicking practice: Rance, Gourdis, White, Polo