Sack Hardwick [merged]

[WilliamPowell]

I have a question for you all,

WHy is it that port and nth and essendon, have gone right past us?

WHy is it that other teams have improved faster and for longer than us?

We better beat Port or the natives will be restless

With Port their list was/is lot better than people gave them credit for, had some shocking injuries last year and didn't invest in their footy program. Now they are they are reaping the benefits. But the season 6 weeks old, let's wait to see how they go against the top teams eg Geelong, Sydney, Pies & Hawthorn

Don't think they've passed us at all, think based on their list of kids we are on par

Don't believe North have passed us, they've been ahead of us over the last few years because they have compared to us a mature list (see Harvey, Petrie, Firitto) who've supported their kids coming through. Who are now only showing some consistency BTW. Think we are about to go past them to be honest. They made finals last year because they won close games on the home stretch, so far in 2013 theyhaven't onethe close ones

Bombers - again the core of their list is further developed than ours. Experienced bodies to help the kids, we haven't had that in the last  few years. Our record against them in the last couple of years suggests we are close to them if not on par

Again let's not get sucked in to their record after 6 rounds. Same sceanrio as 2012 for the Bombers and we know what happened in the 2nd half of 2012. Will watch with interest

[Stripes]

People always under-estimate how far behind the pack we were for years. The other clubs must have been giggling like school girls when clubs like ourselves and Melbourne stripped our squads back to the core and flooded it with youth. Teams like Sydney and Collingwood now have never needed to do this because they have just continue to stockpile talent, develop them, test them in the VFL and make sure they are AFL ready before bring them into the side to be supported heavily by the experienced campaigners around them.

Getting rid of all your experience, strong bodies and leaders, regardless of their playing ability, over a couple of seasons leaves scars for half a decade.This is why we recruiters so many older players to the list with trading away young talent this last draft. I think it was our best draft ever - not necessarily because of the players we brought through but how we went about it systematically attempting to fill needs. We used our rookie spots for depth/cover and ND picks for the future - fantastic.

Unfortunately, we didn't do this early and now we lack leadership, lack maturity and lack team consistency. We're on the right track but in close games or games when Plan A is failing the players are lost. You can say this is due to poor coaching but in the heat of the contest, if what you have been trained to do is failing, you need to confidence in yourself to change your thinking firstly and then the confidence in others that they will follow you if you are a leader. We are still 2/3 years off this.

Hardwick does have problems during game day. Whether this is due to him not planning enough for potential problems, not being able to think on his feet quickly enough or most likely, not being able to communicate to the players the changes and have them complete the new role quickly enough - I'm undecided.

Do I think he will take us to the GF - I'm not sure but I am certain he has assembled the best coaches around him to get the best out of his players going forward. They are improving and we are improving as a club and a large part of that is Dimma and his ability to work with people.

[unplugged]

Owl and Stripes posts make most sense to me.

On recruiting experienced players.

Good - Creates Depth, Masks deficiencies, increases overall competitiveness
Bad - Less games, draft picks, development of juniors, recycled players generally have deficiencies.

I personally am in favor of the mature age recruits at Richmond.  But the reason I am in favor is a further indictment on Hardwick.  The Juniors we have recruited in the last four years haven't developed and are not contributing at senior level. 

Look at the pre-hardwick players that fill senior roles now:

King, Edwards, Jackson, McGuane, Deledio, Cotchin, White. Reiwoldt, Vickery, Rance, Newman.

Then look at the mature age recruits: 

Morris, Chaplin, Petterd, Houli, Grigg, Maric, Knights,

Then look at Hardwicks recruits, his kids, this is where the dominant players for GF push should be coming from:

Vlastuin (1st year), Ellis (2nd year and ordinary skills), Grimes (Perma injured), Martin (No 3 draft pick).   Then Zipp, 4 players. two top 10 draft picks, incredibly poor result.

We can make all the excuses in the world for Hardwick.  The key areas where a coach must deliver, Game Plan, Match Day Coaching and Junior Player Development, he has failed.  Do we keep accepting this failure in the hope he will turn it around and for how long do we wait mired in mediocrity.

I am over people downgrading the list and blaming past coaches.  Half the senior side are from previous regimes.  If the list was so bad previously, why do all these players keep getting games.  If it is so bad, why do we keep getting in front against good sides only to lose.  Four years in, list argument is weak.  Responsibility for match day performance largely rests on Hardwicks shoulders.

[blaisee]

All good points guys,

BUt ,

It may well be the case because they have better coaches, recruiting, leadership and culture,

I hope not, but its possible, even probable at this stage.

This year is a watershed year. we need to get our season back on tracvk and it has to start this week.

[gerkin greg]

It's taken us a long time to get back to ninth, dont **** it up now

[YellowandBlackBlood]

Owl and Stripes posts make most sense to me.

On recruiting experienced players.

Good - Creates Depth, Masks deficiencies, increases overall competitiveness
Bad - Less games, draft picks, development of juniors, recycled players generally have deficiencies.

I personally am in favor of the mature age recruits at Richmond.  But the reason I am in favor is a further indictment on Hardwick.  The Juniors we have recruited in the last four years haven't developed and are not contributing at senior level. 

Look at the pre-hardwick players that fill senior roles now:

King, Edwards, Jackson, McGuane, Deledio, Cotchin, White. Reiwoldt, Vickery, Rance, Newman.

Then look at the mature age recruits: 

Morris, Chaplin, Petterd, Houli, Grigg, Maric, Knights,

Then look at Hardwicks recruits, his kids, this is where the dominant players for GF push should be coming from:

Vlastuin (1st year), Ellis (2nd year and ordinary skills), Grimes (Perma injured), Martin (No 3 draft pick).   Then Zipp, 4 players. two top 10 draft picks, incredibly poor result.

We can make all the excuses in the world for Hardwick.  The key areas where a coach must deliver, Game Plan, Match Day Coaching and Junior Player Development, he has failed.  Do we keep accepting this failure in the hope he will turn it around and for how long do we wait mired in mediocrity.

I am over people downgrading the list and blaming past coaches.  Half the senior side are from previous regimes.  If the list was so bad previously, why do all these players keep getting games.  If it is so bad, why do we keep getting in front against good sides only to lose.  Four years in, list argument is weak.  Responsibility for match day performance largely rests on Hardwicks shoulders.

Morris has been very good.  An excellent choice.
Chaplin is too early to tell.  Not having a preseason hasn't helped his cause. Petterd is a rookie.  Unfair to lump him with the recruits although I'm not sure why he was elevated.  Grigg was fantastic last year.  Not sure what's going on this year.  Maric was a revelation last year but a groin complaint has made him lame this year so it's unfair to blame Hardwick for that. Houli is NOT a backman.  Not sure why he is continually played there. Knights has been reasonable after recovering form a calf.
I think Vlas will be very good.  Ellis has better skill than you give him credit for. Cannot blame Hardwick for Grimes injury woes. Martin is a gun.

[harry bosch]

Agree with the recruiting criticism , but that would be on Francis Jackson i would have thought

If there is one person at this club whose position should be under pressure it is him...

[YellowandBlackBlood]

Agree with the recruiting criticism , but that would be on Francis Jackson i would have thought

If there is one person at this club whose position should be under pressure it is him...

Ok then.

Who would you have recruited, given our position and the draft concessions.  Remember you will have the huge advantage of hindsight.  FJ didn't have that!

Fire away!

[unplugged]

Fyfe over griffiths, heppell over conca for starters....

[RedanTiger]

Does he have a good eye for talent?  N/A IMV - only because it is the job of recruiters to find the talent, not his. All a coach can do is say I want a certain type pf player then it's up to the recruiters to find those who can best do that job. They don't watch potential recruits live all he gets is the vision and the recommendations

Has he employed the right coaching staff? 8.5 yes, especially bringing in Williams and bringing back Tim Clarke
[/color]

You can make some of the "good eye for talent" based on his list decisions.
Just from last year - delist Browne, Connors, Post, Webberley. Trade Graham. Keep Derickx, White. Fill with experienced players for "insurance".
Those would all be largely his decisions as they are for all senior coaches and they do get judged harshly (in hindsight) on this.
I agree he is not making the decisions on specific players coming in but you can make a call on who he lets go.

I also don't think Williams is a good choice as Forward Coach. 
 

[RedanTiger]

Agree with the recruiting criticism , but that would be on Francis Jackson i would have thought

If there is one person at this club whose position should be under pressure it is him...

Ok then.
Who would you have recruited, given our position and the draft concessions.  Remember you will have the huge advantage of hindsight.  FJ didn't have that!
Fire away!

2006: E. McKenzie/S. Edwards
2007: Mayne/Morton, Hooker/Putt, Bellchambers/Gourdis, Joseph/Collard.
2008: McKernan/Post, Anthony/Thompson, Rockliff/Hislop, J.McKenzie/Cousins, DeBoer/Nahas, Delaney/Gourdis
2009: Barlow/Webberley, Thompson/Nason, Fyfe/Griffith, Reid/Astbury, Stratton/Dea, Markovic/Taylor

Change coaches

2010: Heppel/Conca, Howe/Batchelor. Giles/ Derickx, T McDonald/D MacDonald, Pederson/Jakobi,

So you lose from the current list - Edwards. Nahas. Griffith, Astbury, Dea, Conca and Batchelor.
You include - E. McKenzie, Mayne, Hooker, Bellchambers, Joseph, McKernan, Anthony, Rockliff, J McKenzie, DeBoer, L. Delaney, Barlow, L Thompson, Fyfe, Reid, Stratton. Markovic, Heppel, Howe, Giles, T McDonald.

          or

Hooker       E McKenzie         Joseph
DeBoer      T McDonald         Stratton
Heppel       J McKenzie         Anthony
Howe         McKernan           Mayne
Rockliff       Reid                  Giles
Bellchambers        Barlow      Fyfe
Int: L Delaney, Markovic, L Thompson, Pederson.

Yeah, that was fun, Thanks for the invitation.   

[big tone]

Owl and Stripes posts make most sense to me.

On recruiting experienced players.

Good - Creates Depth, Masks deficiencies, increases overall competitiveness
Bad - Less games, draft picks, development of juniors, recycled players generally have deficiencies.

I personally am in favor of the mature age recruits at Richmond.  But the reason I am in favor is a further indictment on Hardwick.  The Juniors we have recruited in the last four years haven't developed and are not contributing at senior level. 

Look at the pre-hardwick players that fill senior roles now:

King, Edwards, Jackson, McGuane, Deledio, Cotchin, White. Reiwoldt, Vickery, Rance, Newman.

Then look at the mature age recruits: 

Morris, Chaplin, Petterd, Houli, Grigg, Maric, Knights,

Then look at Hardwicks recruits, his kids, this is where the dominant players for GF push should be coming from:

Vlastuin (1st year), Ellis (2nd year and ordinary skills), Grimes (Perma injured), Martin (No 3 draft pick).   Then Zipp, 4 players. two top 10 draft picks, incredibly poor result.

We can make all the excuses in the world for Hardwick.  The key areas where a coach must deliver, Game Plan, Match Day Coaching and Junior Player Development, he has failed.  Do we keep accepting this failure in the hope he will turn it around and for how long do we wait mired in mediocrity.

I am over people downgrading the list and blaming past coaches.  Half the senior side are from previous regimes.  If the list was so bad previously, why do all these players keep getting games.  If it is so bad, why do we keep getting in front against good sides only to lose.  Four years in, list argument is weak.  Responsibility for match day performance largely rests on Hardwicks shoulders.

Best post I have read on here in a long time. Congratulations Unplugged.
I agree with you 100%
People want to keep throwing up the list argument to defend DH, which as you have pointed out just doesn't stack up. Take out our first round draft choices over DH teenier and who is a regular in our side at the moment?
And as some would know I don't rate Ellis at all and Conca at best is just a solid trier and probably always will be.

[the claw]

Agree with the recruiting criticism , but that would be on Francis Jackson i would have thought

If there is one person at this club whose position should be under pressure it is him...

Ok then.

Who would you have recruited, given our position and the draft concessions.  Remember you will have the huge advantage of hindsight.  FJ didn't have that!

Fire away!

i would gladly answer that questionfor you.  but  i have already answred those questions  in the past usually with out the benefit of hindsight.
i still think in the last 3 or 4 yrs it is not so much the first ounders that we have got wrong but the 2nd 3rd rounders. imo we have failed badly with the rookie list and we almost stead fastly refuse to look hard enough at state league players  who cost noithing and are better options than the deficient afl players on other lists who are available.

jacksons first rnd choices since wallace left. i dont call them hardwiks picks because quite frankly they arent they are francis jacksons picks and no one elses.
09 martin #3 dont know if anyone can complain here.
10 conca #6 well me im on record as wanting heppell. conca is not a failed pick though.
11 ellis #15 again id say he looks a decent pick again im record as liking kavanagh.
12 vlastuin #9  imo we took the right mid here. i thought him top 5. only player outsdie of him  id consider here was  grundy who i thought was the second best tall in the draft. was hoping for stringer to be available.

have we really failed with these picks. well apart from the fact its too early to call any of the drafts conclusively after all martin from 09 is just in yr 4 id say we have done okay.
its after these picks where you have to ask questions but like isaid its too early to call.

if i was going to judge francis jackson it would be on the 05 to 08 drafts

05 #8 oakley-nichols. #24 cleve hughes, #40 travis casserley. none remain on our list and it leaves a huge hole both in experience and structure.

06 - #13 riewoldt, #26 shane edwards, #58 dan connors, #60 carl peterson.#72 a collins. just riewoldt and edwards left and edwards to date has been underwhelming. again he got the first rounder right

07 - #2 cotchin, #18 rance, #51 dean putt. we traded #19 for mcmahon  and #35 for morton. the trades for me were mindboggling. just cotchin and rance left with serious questions over rance. again he got the first round pick right but all else is questionable.

08 - #8 vickery, #26 post, #58 tom hislop.  cant say we have the first round pick right and theres no others left.

in 5yrs and 14 live picks theres just 2 picks you can without question say have been succesful. of 14 live nd picks theres just 5 players left.

without hesitation i can say jackson has been very ordinary up to 08.  and take martin out of the 09 equation and 09 is looking pretty shakey as well.

[gerkin greg]

  get a stuffing life ya limpgots

[the claw]

just on the op sack hardwick.
me i think hes done well with the limited cattle hes had at his disposal. as mick malthouse once said, as a coach you live and die on the backs of your recruiting managers and list manager.

looking at the list its been my opinion that it is ordinary and hes actually had that ordinary list competing quite well and in the main being competetive.
a lot of the strategies that the club has used to build the list have been very understandable.  some have failed a lot have worked.

 the next stage clearly is to take us from being generally competetive to being a force. a blind man can see theres lots to do to achieve that and that there has to be a good many upgrades on players to achieve it. imo over the next 2 or 3 seasons we need to make a call on over half the list. i could make a negative call right now on 12 or 14 of them and be real sure about being right.

dimma at the end of the yr will show if hes the right man for the job by recognising and cutting those who clearly cant take us to the next level.thing is he has to do it in a way that ensures we dont become uncompetetive again.