Author Topic: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)  (Read 4792 times)

gerkin greg

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 03:31:33 PM »
because the club retained two promising young rookies from last year, williams and darrou

Offline Dice

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2014, 03:48:32 PM »
2/ i think longer a very good ruck prospect.  longer and 25  and id say we were in front.  longer and 25  is  worth pick 12 and 50.  cmon he was an original pick 8 and deservedly so. imo in his two yrs hes shown more than enough to suggest he will be a good ruckman. hes shown enough to say this yr he would play  senior footy.
i reckon you would be hard pressed to find too many people in the afl who didnt think longer worth a first rounder.

In two years of AFL Longer averages 3.5 kicks , 1.8 marks and 3.6 handballs per game.  Eff me , I could average those stats !
Didn't see too many clubs clamouring for his services at the trade period and I think you'd be hardpressed to find anyone in the AFL that would think he was worth a first round pick.
Blokes like Grundy and Nicholls have been playing for 2 minutes and they're well ahead of him
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Offline Smokey

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 04:14:31 PM »

why is that? just because we use it that way most other clubs still tend to balance it out.

Not quite true Claw.  Using a current age (today) of over 21 as an older player and under 21 as a kid, here is the break-up of all clubs:

Adel - 4 kids, 1 older
Bris - 5 kids, 1 older
Carl - 3 kids, 4 older
Coll - 1 kid, 5 older
Ess - 0 kids, 5 older
Freo - 4 kids, 1 older
Geel - 4 kids, 2 older
Suns - 2 kids, 2 older
GWS - 0 kids, 1 older
Haw - 4 kids, 2 older
Melb - 3 kids, 2 older
NthM - 2 kids, 3 older
Port - 2 kids, 3 older
Rich - 2 kids, 4 older
StK - 2 kids, 3 older
Syd - 4 kids, 3 older
WstC - 3 kids, 1 older
WBul - 2 kids, 2 older

So 8 clubs have more kids than older rookies, 8 clubs have more older rookies than kids, and 2 clubs have the same amount of each.  Looks to me that the thinking is based more around what suits a particular list structure at the time rather than a general leaning one way or the other.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2014, 04:32:41 PM »
2/ i think longer a very good ruck prospect.  longer and 25  and id say we were in front.  longer and 25  is  worth pick 12 and 50.  cmon he was an original pick 8 and deservedly so. imo in his two yrs hes shown more than enough to suggest he will be a good ruckman. hes shown enough to say this yr he would play  senior footy.
i reckon you would be hard pressed to find too many people in the afl who didnt think longer worth a first rounder.

In two years of AFL Longer averages 3.5 kicks , 1.8 marks and 3.6 handballs per game.  Eff me , I could average those stats !
Didn't see too many clubs clamouring for his services at the trade period and I think you'd be hardpressed to find anyone in the AFL that would think he was worth a first round pick.
Blokes like Grundy and Nicholls have been playing for 2 minutes and they're well ahead of him

3.5? Not in 2013

Billy two kicks

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-st-kilda-saints--billy-longer

Offline Dice

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2014, 04:44:10 PM »
3.5? Not in 2013

Billy two kicks

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-st-kilda-saints--billy-longer

3.5 per game for 2012 / 2013 combined.
So yeh , he went backwards last year did old 'two kick' Longer  ;D
Tanking has put the club where it's at - Paul Roos

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2014, 08:45:06 PM »
3.5? Not in 2013

Billy two kicks

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-st-kilda-saints--billy-longer

3.5 per game for 2012 / 2013 combined.
So yeh , he went backwards last year did old 'two kick' Longer  ;D

Crickey even Big Bad Benny G is in front of that spud

the claw

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 09:36:58 PM »
2/ i think longer a very good ruck prospect.  longer and 25  and id say we were in front.  longer and 25  is  worth pick 12 and 50.  cmon he was an original pick 8 and deservedly so. imo in his two yrs hes shown more than enough to suggest he will be a good ruckman. hes shown enough to say this yr he would play  senior footy.
i reckon you would be hard pressed to find too many people in the afl who didnt think longer worth a first rounder.

In two years of AFL Longer averages 3.5 kicks , 1.8 marks and 3.6 handballs per game.  Eff me , I could average those stats !
Didn't see too many clubs clamouring for his services at the trade period and I think you'd be hardpressed to find anyone in the AFL that would think he was worth a first round pick.
Blokes like Grundy and Nicholls have been playing for 2 minutes and they're well ahead of him

hes had two yrs as a 18yo and 19yo. played just 9 games and his stats are on par or better than most young ruckmen at the same age.
we are talking ruckmen here and its his ruck work and stats in this area that has him well in front of most at the same age.
like most young ruckmen he needs to up the ante in a lot of areas but as a ruckman hes better than most and hes better than a lot of mature ruckmen.
our boy hampson disposal wise was much worse than longer so was maric. neither looked as good as longer as a ruckman at the same age.

ignorance really is bliss in a way im glad we didnt get longer with  pick 12 the expectations on a 9game 20yo ruckman would be over the top. people have the hide to talk about development.
with what hes shown to date in the ruck i would gladly have traded 12 and 50 for longer and 25.
sydney saw a potential big combative ruckman in jolly and gave up pick 15. he had similar sort of stats to longer and had not performed as well as longer in the ruck.

yep its no good trying to get longer but its okay to get hampson who hasnt done much as a ruckman had 7 yrs played 63 games and still only goes at 3.6 kicks a game and 8 possessions.
yep the short term mentality is here and alive and well.

the truth of the matter is we took so many mature players late nd and rookie list because so many on the list proper are borderline.

Offline Stripes

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2014, 03:22:30 PM »
The club is using a very small risk policy when it comes to recruiting and trading. It has chosen to use the rookie draft on experienced players that offer a consistent output rather than a youth who has only a small percentage chance of making it.  A successful rookie could potentially give you a greater return eventually but the probability is very slight particularly given the lack of depth in this draft . This is why we have gone for the best players available now rather than taking the risk that all our rookies will never see a game.

This approach is why we have made the gradual yet undeniable improvements to our list to this point. No high risk drafting or trading.

the claw

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2014, 07:54:29 PM »
The club is using a very small risk policy when it comes to recruiting and trading. It has chosen to use the rookie draft on experienced players that offer a consistent output rather than a youth who has only a small percentage chance of making it.  A successful rookie could potentially give you a greater return eventually but the probability is very slight particularly given the lack of depth in this draft . This is why we have gone for the best players available now rather than taking the risk that all our rookies will never see a game.

This approach is why we have made the gradual yet undeniable improvements to our list to this point. No high risk drafting or trading.

if they are taking no risk players in the nd after the 1st round then they are getting plenty wrong still. i cant name one of 17 players taken in the nd, after the first round , in hardwicks time who have become consistent regulars. not one. and they are no risk picks give me a break.
they are taking so many mature players and rookies because they cant find a decent player weather it be junior or mature. the record for both is poor. hardwick mentions the need for the 2010 draft to step up but doesnt mention the 09 draft.
of 7 nd picks in 09 only martin has become a consistent decent player.three are gone already and griffiths astbury and dea have struggled and are on notice.ffs even the trade we did a jackson special in farmer has gone and the two promoted rookie players who  we really should have had an inkling about are gone as well. so much for the start of the rebuild under hardwick eh.

i dont buy into this spurious argument that there were no   juniors left in our case after pick 12  :o  who were not worth taking and developing. if this is the belief   then no wonder they cant find decent players after the first round.they arent doing the ground work.  this is what we have done just one junior at 12 and there wasnt a kid good enough to take after it lol

. not one junior player after pick 12 and when one   remotely suggests our recruiting was a bit too lopsided this yr  your howled down. if its a one off yr fine but we need to remember we do get many of our mature picks wrong and to think theres no risk is a nonsense.

in taking mature players im hoping hampson can become a good player for us because we need this to happen. im hoping the likes of lloyd  gordon and miles were not taken just for cover to injury. we need em to surpass some of the ordinary ones that are getting regular games. this is the problem.

 the talk of no risk what a joke. wehave taken our fair share of risky players both nd and mature and rookie s since hardwick has been there.
how the hell were webberley,nason,farmer not risks  or griffiths dea batchelor and taylor. with his 7 yr record how is hampson not a risk.you can go on and on.hislop, roberts macdonald gourdis all came with obvious weaknesses or problems yet we traded or drafted for em.  what about the irish men definate risks.  do i need go on.

all i suggest is we could have found a better balance in trades, nd, and rookie draft this yr. for sure take worthy mature players where ever but ffs dont give up on youth altogether.

i would have been happy to go after mature players  some i liked was   chapman, laidler sully waldhuter cain., i even acknowledge the need to get a ruckman in  hampson hes not my choice though because of the inherent risk.  ffs ive argued on this site in previous yrs the very need to take our fair share of mature players mainly state leaguers late nd and rookie draft. but go about it in a balanced way. if we give up on juniors and the draft we are doomed.
 im more than happy with the selection of miles and gordon. there was in fact many mature types we could have targeted but we needed to imo balance it out with a decent amount of juniors.

dwaino

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2014, 08:43:40 PM »

Offline Stripes

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2014, 10:22:22 PM »
I didn't say no risk claw, I said small risk. They are trying to play by the numbers and minimize the risk where-ever possible. Rather than take a high risk high reward player they have taken players, other than Lennon, who are proven players. Taking younger players with your rookie picks is a definite risk given your picks are effectively 80+ NB picks. The club chose to take players who are young enough to still be part of our future for 7+ years but can also be brought straight into the side if required or their form warrants it. A young unproven player will statistically never play a game and if they do only play after years of development.

Even players like Gordan, Lloyd and Miles fit this mold. The club has chosen to use their rookie picks on emergency players that can play now if required rather than potential players that could make it but most likely won't. I think its a good strategy particularly with the talent pool that was offered in the last draft.

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2014, 06:10:43 PM »


Classic Dwaino, may have to borrow that

the claw

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2014, 06:32:57 PM »
I didn't say no risk claw, I said small risk. They are trying to play by the numbers and minimize the risk where-ever possible. Rather than take a high risk high reward player they have taken players, other than Lennon, who are proven players. Taking younger players with your rookie picks is a definite risk given your picks are effectively 80+ NB picks. The club chose to take players who are young enough to still be part of our future for 7+ years but can also be brought straight into the side if required or their form warrants it. A young unproven player will statistically never play a game and if they do only play after years of development.

Even players like Gordan, Lloyd and Miles fit this mold. The club has chosen to use their rookie picks on emergency players that can play now if required rather than potential players that could make it but most likely won't. I think its a good strategy particularly with the talent pool that was offered in the last draft.
last yr we rookied petterd.lonergan,stephenson and williams.  traded for edwards chaplin and knights,   this yr banfield, miles, and thomas  traded for hampson and wrongly imo promoted petterd. so in two rookie drafts our club could only find one junior worth rookieing. and in two nds find just 4 juniors worth takeing.what exacerbates this is we could only take one junior in the nd as well. pick 12 and not one kid after. thats  almost unbelievable and id say unheard of.
i understand what your saying ive advocted on this site for yrs that we take more mature players especially state leaguers but not almost exclusively.ive regularly pointed out the percentage of young rookies that make it but even in knowing this i would never ever advocate we take exclusively mature players.its not the taking of some  mature players who can immediately offer more but the failure to  adequately take enough juniors im bitching about.

can i ask what mature proven player of afl standard  did we take. not one. if they were proven their previous clubs would not be delisting them. not even hampson who we gave up a second rounder for is proven. i even question the need to take him when we have orren stephenson, who is the better ruckman to date?.we take em because right now they will give more than kids ie hampson will give more than say longer ??? mcbean if hes a ruckman but will he be better in 3 yrs time. that is  what is being forgotten will they be better than all those kids in 3 or 4 yrs time.
i will say again the main reason they have gone down this path is they have got so many picks wrong  this is the problem. if we had enough proven players on our list there would be no need to go down this path.  there is still great need to find good,vgood, and elite players. you wont be finding too many of these with retreads.

 to say there was  no talent left is a furphy. maybe its a good thing they went mature because they sure arent getting many junior picks right after the first rnd.to me its this rather than a lack of talent that has become the problem.

even trading for hampson i have to ask will he give more as a ruckman than stephenson i really doubt it based on what hes dished up to date.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Tiger rookies are 'injury replacement players': Hardwick (afl site)
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2014, 06:48:19 PM »
Its not a straight longer v hampson

It must be taken into account what each cost

 - longer may be better than hampson. But is he significantly superior to justify missing out on Lennon?

As for hamoson v orren, orren is not of the age where he can be relied on long term. Hence a ruck of about hampson age (or there about) was required for list balance