One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: one-eyed on October 14, 2013, 05:28:48 PM
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Wallace on Trade Radio talking about the Tigers ...
@thelistmanager: "If Richmond doesn't make ground (on top teams) in 2014, it won't make ground with this playing group. Your thoughts?"
https://twitter.com/traderadio
So we're not going to add to our list via the trade period and draft post-2014 season? :huh
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Sounds like Terry is locked and loaded
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Terry pls.
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Sounds like Terry is locked and loaded
Yessss :clapping
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Personally I think we over achieved this year.
Top 4 is not a nasecity but making the finals again and winning at least one is the minimum step forward we need to take. We also need to start seeing major improvement in over half the list, Batch, Aystbury, Helbig, Dea, Griffiths and Elton all need to step it up a gear if we're going to go places on the next couple of years.
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For griff an extra 2 touches would be a quantum leap
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Wallace the cancer making statements without backing justification :banghead
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Wallace the cancer making statements without backing justification :banghead
okay bents what has he got wrong and why. i reckon the general gist of what he says is correct. especially if this off season stays pretty similar to what it has.
last yr lots of top up players. this already traded out of the second round . the club already come out and said it wont be doing any more trades. we havent actually delisted anyone and we have had to date just one retiree, and one free agent walk.
atm the cklub is acting like it thinks we are locked and loaded. it may change over the next week and a bit who knows.
thing is if wallace actually believes we are top 4 then hes more deluded tahn hes ever been. if hes commenting on what we have done the last two yrs then hes probably entitled to think what hes said.
Personally I think we over achieved this year.
Top 4 is not a nasecity but making the finals again and winning at least one is the minimum step forward we need to take. We also need to start seeing major improvement in over half the list, Batch, Aystbury, Helbig, Dea, Griffiths and Elton all need to step it up a gear if we're going to go places on the next couple of years.
this is close to what i think. depending on what happens the rest of the trade and nd period and what transpires thru next yr injuries etc then even the top 8 is not a must.
of all the talls dave astbury is the one hes the most advanced imo and we need arnot helbig dea all claiming permanent spots. we need elton mcbean and bloody hell griffiths to start earning games between them. we are going to need hampson to make a significant contribution and we will probably need pick 12 to do what our first rounders have done in recent times. will add mcintosh in the mix as well. really want to see him claim a hb role for himself.
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Even I'm not as negative as the big clawski
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Here's the audio of Plough talking about Richmond's list ...
http://audioboo.fm/boos/1659289-terry-wallace-list-manager-richmond.mp3
or
http://audioboo.fm/AFLMedia
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Top 4 is not a nasecity
It's not what ? ;D
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;D
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Wallace the cancer making statements without backing justification :banghead
okay bents what has he got wrong and why. i reckon the general gist of what he says is correct. especially if this off season stays pretty similar to what it has.
last yr lots of top up players. this already traded out of the second round . the club already come out and said it wont be doing any more trades. we havent actually delisted anyone and we have had to date just one retiree, and one free agent walk.
atm the cklub is acting like it thinks we are locked and loaded. it may change over the next week and a bit who knows.
thing is if wallace actually believes we are top 4 then hes more deluded tahn hes ever been. if hes commenting on what we have done the last two yrs then hes probably entitled to think what hes said.
Personally I think we over achieved this year.
Top 4 is not a nasecity but making the finals again and winning at least one is the minimum step forward we need to take. We also need to start seeing major improvement in over half the list, Batch, Aystbury, Helbig, Dea, Griffiths and Elton all need to step it up a gear if we're going to go places on the next couple of years.
this is close to what i think. depending on what happens the rest of the trade and nd period and what transpires thru next yr injuries etc then even the top 8 is not a must.
of all the talls dave astbury is the one hes the most advanced imo and we need arnot helbig dea all claiming permanent spots. we need elton mcbean and bloody hell griffiths to start earning games between them. we are going to need hampson to make a significant contribution and we will probably need pick 12 to do what our first rounders have done in recent times. will add mcintosh in the mix as well. really want to see him claim a hb role for himself.
Looking over the age demographic of our key players by round 1 - 2015
I don't understand why we won't be able to contend
Hence plough splurting codwhollop - "or bust"
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Can someone explain the concept of over achievement please...For me you either achieve or you dont
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Lol - "the list manager".
Wallet, you can't be serious!!
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Summary of the full Richmond 2013 review/2014 preview by Wallace:
* Their Final was awful. They choked! Had the game but inexperience in finals cost them.
* Hate Richmond using the excuse they are a young side. They aren't. They are a mature side. A side in 2014 with Newman (32), Stephenson (32), A.Edwards (30), King (30), Chaplin (28 ), Maric (28 ), Jackson (28 ), Foley (28), Deledio (27), Knights (27), Lonergan (27), Grigg (26), Houli (26), Petterd (26), Riewoldt (25), S.Edwards (25), Morris (25), Cotchin (24), Rance (24) and Vickery (24) isn't young. They can't say anymore "we're on the journey" or inexperienced. The time is now!
* Solid midfield group. Inside fine but not so sure of the outside regarding run and carry especially if Deledio plays at HB.
* Sees Lids as the swingman. Someone who can play HB/HF. Makes it harder for him to be tagged. Does struggle with tags.
* Conca and Ellis hence needed for that run and carry in the middle of the ground if Lids plays more HB. Ellis was well held in the Elim Final while Conca was out injured.
* Getting Hampson was the right move. Maric and Hampson do the bulk of the ruck work. With Vickery in the forward line, only need Ivan and Maric to spend small spells up forward.
* Chaplin and Rance teamed well together in the backline. Still get caught with that bigger body with Grimes as the third defender. It's time for Astbury and Griffiths. Need them to step up so Grimes isn't playing on a big tall.
* Well stocked for small/midsized defenders so good run and carry out of defence. So the issue in the backline is that bigger body.
* Hampson puts pressure on Aaron Edwards. Can't see all of Jack, Vickery, Aaron Edwards and a resting ruck working.
* Small forward short of the mark. Their that Jeff Garlett/Lindsay Thomas player short of getting the forward line right. It's the missing piece of the puzzle. Best footy is past Kingy given he's now 30. Shane Edwards is playing more in the midfield while White is gone.
* 3 out (McGuane, White and Tuck); one in (Hampson). Crammed up with salary cap issues so don't expect them to do much else in the trade period.
* Too reliant on Cotch, Lids and Martin so need younger mids to step up. Key tall players need to step up - Jack Riewoldt has been down over the past two years; what's his best possie/role? Moving him up the field in the final didn't work. Richmond went too far trying to get other avenues to goal. Not necessarily Hardwick's fault as you tell players to do one thing and they'll take it to the limit. Vickery is the key - good is very good but bad is terrible - it's either a 3/10 or 7/10; They need Vickery to deliver consistency and give 7/10 performances pushing up to 8.5/10. There's also 202cm McBean in the wings but you can't expect much from him at this stage at his age.
* 15 wins doesn't happen by accident but it doesn't guarantee you'll do it again. 7th is the perfect finish for Richmond as they'll play the middle of the roads sides twice next year. So they'll need to beat the sides around them challenging for the Eight to make the finals again. They will get a superior draw compared to what they delivered. Need to take the next step in 2014 to challenge the top sides or they never will with this playing group.
http://audioboo.fm/boos/1659289-terry-wallace-list-manager-richmond.mp3
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Whilst I find Walla$$ comments rich I have grave fears for us making the 8 again next year.
I don't think we have done enough during trade time so far and whilst FJ and co have done well in recent years with our first rounders I still think we may be short up forward and one or two impacting mids whether whether inside or outside short of really pushing into the top 4.
Injuries and or a bad draw and possibly getting ahead of ourselves and we could slide easily like the Crows did this year. Historically we haven't made successive finals since the halcyon days of 74/75.
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Pretty galling for The List Mangler himself to come out with this. He had us locked and loaded after our "best ninth ever" and IIRC only once took more than the bare minimum in the national draft.
Even more galling though is that for the most part is that he's actually right. Maybe a year out with the "now or never" assessment and last year's draw wasn't soft. North & Adelaide 2012 is what defines "soft". Really though, draws can often become soft or hard as a season plays out differently to what was the expectation based on the previous season. (Have we played GCS or GWS twice in a season yet - or at home?)
Either way, 2014 should be the end of the era of excuses. We're not rebuilding anymore and whilst we may not have an "aging" list, they're not a bunch of kids either. Even taking into account improvement from other sides, our (so far &IMO) unadventurous, peeweak trading efforts and barring a horror run with injuries we should at least hold our spot.
My main concern is if & how we cover for the loss of pace in White's absence -we really needed to add our pace stocks with White still on the list as it was- and whether Hardwick has the abilty to recognise this as well a few other, relatively minor & simple tweaks that need to be made.
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Personally I think we over achieved this year.
Personally I think we under achieved this year. After waiting for 12 years to make the Finals, to bow out in the pathetic manner that we did against a side who only made it into the 8 by default was an absolute disgrace.
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Personally I think we over achieved this year.
Personally I think we under achieved this year. After waiting for 12 years to make the Finals, to bow out in the pathetic manner that we did against a side who only made it into the 8 by default was an absolute disgrace.
Absolutely agree here here my friend
One of the most accurate comments I've read in a while
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top 4 will always be a HUGE call depends on our draw which I must say we should be due for a decent one for a change if we can pull gws , stkilda and melbourne twice there is 6 wins automatically. When we think about it we can match the likes of the hawks year in and year out and fremantle but its what those teams do in there remaining games they don't drop games they shouldn't were we seem to most times.
Ill be happy to see us with 15 wins again and win a final love to win the flag don't get me wrong but I just don't think we can with this cattle..
GO U TIGERS
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I agree it's top 4 or bust for me too.
(see how stupid it sounds)
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Newman (32), Stephenson (32), A.Edwards (30), King (30), Chaplin (28 ), Jackson (28 ), Foley (28),Knights (27), Lonergan (27), Grigg (26), Houli (26), Petterd 26
:sleep
How many in our best side
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Exactly Bents.
5, 6 at most and the oldest is 28. Just shows how poor The List Manager's perspective really is. I'm just hanging out for his "I was responsible" comment after our next flag.
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Top 2 or fail......no excuses
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Newman (32), Stephenson (32), A.Edwards (30), King (30), Chaplin (28 ), Jackson (28 ), Foley (28),Knights (27), Lonergan (27), Grigg (26), Houli (26), Petterd 26
:sleep
How many in our best side
so from age 24 upwards we are talking quality. wejust dont have enough of it. in fact we are littered with battlers in the key age brackets on the list. theres currently how many aged 24 or more, i count 20 odd and the problem is they are battlers in the main inconsistent have chronic weakness etc
trouble is far too many aged 23 and below are still struggling even to get a regular game they are unproven..my money is on not making finals next yr but hey ive said that months ago.
we have numbers in most areas but we lack quality or too many are unproven.
if a pile of our kids do not improve we will not make the 8. i say kids because the seniors 24 and above have shown over too many yrs that they cannot sustain any sort of decent form.
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Thank you captain no shyte
But what your saying doesn't strengthen Wallace argument. If anything you are claiming he is wrong and we should be better by '15 than currently and next year.
If what you say is true - the older half of our list are not much good - why is it top 4 or bust next season? This is nonsensical.
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Thank you captain no shyte
But what your saying doesn't strengthen Wallace argument. If anything you are claiming he is wrong and we should be better by '15 than currently and next year.
If what you say is true - the older half of our list are not Mich good - why is it top 4 or bust next season? This is nonsensical.
id say wallaces perspective is based on what the club itself has done top 4 is the aim.
id say wallace is basing his opinion on the clubs actions over the last two yrs and the fact we have plenty in the 24 plus age bracket. plus our ladder finish.
if a good percentage of our under 23s do not step up and significantly improve we will go into rebuild mode again pretty quickly.
a few of us have been screaming out we have not built a thing that is sustainable. and yes imo the older half of our listy is average at best ive been saying this all along.
geez
hampson, petterd, edwards, lonergan, stephenson, morris, maric, knights, and chaplin in two yrs says what to most people. thing is most are nothing more than a quick attempt to build a bit of depth, add on or slightly improve on what we had or a desperate attempt to fix a hole in the list.. some were even taken for no other reason than of a lack of decent experienced players.
i dont disagree with most of what we have done but we have not targeted quality in improving the list.
theres not a lot of quality but others dont see it that way. they see a pile of mature players coming to the club and they see just 3 and 4 nd picks used in the last two seasons. and its like;ly we will use just 3 nd picks this yr the way its going. we certainly have not been in rebuild mode not with youth anyway.
at the end of the day i suppose it comes down to how each individual rates and ranks players. wallace obviously thinks theres been enough decent players taken whereas me i disagree.
look ive had nothing but praise for us getting houli and grigg really good processes. but ive also regularly stated with them in time we will likely have to upgrade on the upgrades. you dont very often get quality players for nothing. but you can regularly value add.
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i dont disagree with most of what we have done but we have not targeted quality in improving the list.
:thumbsup
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Newman (32), Stephenson (32), A.Edwards (30), King (30), Chaplin (28 ), Jackson (28 ), Foley (28),Knights (27), Lonergan (27), Grigg (26), Houli (26), Petterd 26
:sleep
How many in our best side
I think Wallace has missed the point with that lot. 4-6 in our best 22 but 8 out of 12 are recruited from elsewhere. Our key core group are Cotch , Vickery , Rance and Martin et al, all around 23 or 24. Reiwoldt is the odd core one out at 26.
The fact is you can recruit average middle age or older players now. And this old group represent exactly that. Recruited for a purpose and as such none of them are great. You won't find anyone recruiting star players in the young age bracket without massive inducements and high draft picks.
My point is this policy of recruiting middle ranked players to fill holes is sustainable and as such you will always have an old looking group in your list that are average. Its the star players that are the key. As long as we don't have to do it over one or two years we could replace all of those older players with similar ability players from other clubs.
I think Wallace is talking rubbish, its Cotch's age that matters not Kingy's and he has 5 or 6 years left. Imagine Cotch plus 5 more 1st round draft picks like Vlastun then we ought to be in real contention. This "list" has years ahead of it, there is no "bust", its just a process of replacing retiring average players from outside with like players.
You bust like Hawthorn when Buddy leaves and Mitchell, Sewell, Hodge, Burgoyne, Gibson, Lake and Guerra retire. Of that lot you can only replace Lake, Guera and Gibson. You have to get lucky to replace a really good mid like Burgoyne and the others are high draft picks.
If he said hawthorn is likely to bust next year or the year after then I'd agree, all their core drafted talent is very old.
Wallace was a bad list manager and it shows.
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Thank you captain no shyte
But what your saying doesn't strengthen Wallace argument. If anything you are claiming he is wrong and we should be better by '15 than currently and next year.
If what you say is true - the older half of our list are not Mich good - why is it top 4 or bust next season? This is nonsensical.
i dont disagree with most of what we have done but we have not targeted quality in improving the list.
look ive had nothing but praise for us getting houli and grigg really good processes. but ive also regularly stated with them in time we will likely have to upgrade on the upgrades. you dont very often get quality players for nothing. but you can regularly value add.
1. Sydney don't generally target quality when they recruit from other clubs, Mitch Morton, Rhyce Shaw they are journey men to fill holes. Andrejs Everitt, even Mumford was second or third ruck at Geelong. Ted Richards, Mike Pyke, all these players when recruited weren't stars.
The only place they seem to recruit stars is forward key positions. Buddy, Tippet and Barry Hall and in all 3 cases they paid overs for them.
2. We wont upgrade our upgrades we will replace with like from some other club if none of the draft picks grow into better players.
We have finally learnt to play the recruiting game.
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The RFC philosophy has dramatically altered since Wallet took his coin & Miller was dispatched from the board.
RFC has finally realised and entered into the AFL era where a quality club invests in the draft and harvests the trade rather than the other way round.
BFT.
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Thank you captain no shyte
But what your saying doesn't strengthen Wallace argument. If anything you are claiming he is wrong and we should be better by '15 than currently and next year.
If what you say is true - the older half of our list are not Mich good - why is it top 4 or bust next season? This is nonsensical.
i dont disagree with most of what we have done but we have not targeted quality in improving the list.
look ive had nothing but praise for us getting houli and grigg really good processes. but ive also regularly stated with them in time we will likely have to upgrade on the upgrades. you dont very often get quality players for nothing. but you can regularly value add.
1. Sydney don't generally target quality when they recruit from other clubs, Mitch Morton, Rhyce Shaw they are journey men to fill holes. Andrejs Everitt, even Mumford was second or third ruck at Geelong. Ted Richards, Mike Pyke, all these players when recruited weren't stars.
The only place they seem to recruit stars is forward key positions. Buddy, Tippet and Barry Hall and in all 3 cases they paid overs for them.
2. We wont upgrade our upgrades we will replace with like from some other club if none of the draft picks grow into better players.
We have finally learnt to play the recruiting game.
and dont forget jolly, who was a third string ruckman at melbourne when they gave up pick 15 odd for him.
There has though, been a definite change in policy with their big spending of late, which i feel will come back to bite them down the track. the question is will it get them some short tern success before this happens
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Surely Jolly was 2nd in line behind White. Cannot remember anyone else playing along side big Jeff
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Whilst I find Walla$$ comments rich I have grave fears for us making the 8 again next year.
I don't think we have done enough during trade time so far and whilst FJ and co have done well in recent years with our first rounders I still think we may be short up forward and one or two impacting mids whether whether inside or outside short of really pushing into the top 4.
Injuries and or a bad draw and possibly getting ahead of ourselves and we could slide easily like the Crows did this year. Historically we haven't made successive finals since the halcyon days of 74/75.
I cant see us making the eight either. Not enough done as you said in this trade period. Its been a poor effort IMHO. 9th or 10th beckons for us and it will be a really disappointing end to what looked a good effort over the past 3 or 4 years to lift the club. Theres not enough class in the side to continually make the 8 let alone get in the top 4 or challenge for a flag.
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Conca-Cotchin.-Deledio-Ellis-Martin-Morris-Vlastuin
Grimes-Maric-McBean-Rance-Riewoldt-Vickery
Surely,Ramps, and co... at least half the building blocks are in place? We need a good run with injury, good coaching and team selection, and the other spots to be filled by people who can compliment the core of the team with competent footy (ie. Not nahas mcgaune types)
We might not win a flag in next five yeats... yet surely we should be regularly top 8? >:(
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Conca-Cotchin.-Deledio-Ellis-Martin-Morris-Vlastuin
Grimes-Maric-McBean-Rance-Riewoldt-Vickery
Surely,Ramps, and co... at least half the building blocks are in place? We need a good run with injury, good coaching and team selection, and the other spots to be filled by people who can compliment the core of the team with competent footy (ie. Not nahas mcgaune types)
We might not win a flag in next five yeats... yet surely we should be regularly top 8? >:(
Morris is an average footballer only, Grimes has been injury prone, Maric has only had 1 really good year his second year with us was just average IMHO, McBean hasnt played a game yet, Vickery plays in fits and spurts and has never been consistent. Still a long way to go unfortunately.
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Conca-Cotchin.-Deledio-Ellis-Martin-Morris-Vlastuin
Grimes-Maric-McBean-Rance-Riewoldt-Vickery
Surely,Ramps, and co... at least half the building blocks are in place? We need a good run with injury, good coaching and team selection, and the other spots to be filled by people who can compliment the core of the team with competent footy (ie. Not nahas mcgaune types)
We might not win a flag in next five yeats... yet surely we should be regularly top 8? >:(
regularly top 8 like nought you mean?
Its about flags bents and while yes we have a good core we have limited class in our forward half and if jack goes down we are royally screwed.
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Conca-Cotchin.-Deledio-Ellis-Martin-Morris-Vlastuin
Grimes-Maric-McBean-Rance-Riewoldt-Vickery
Surely,Ramps, and co... at least half the building blocks are in place? We need a good run with injury, good coaching and team selection, and the other spots to be filled by people who can compliment the core of the team with competent footy (ie. Not nahas mcgaune types)
We might not win a flag in next five yeats... yet surely we should be regularly top 8? >:(
regularly top 8 like nought you mean?
Its about flags bents and while yes we have a good core we have limited class in our forward half and if jack goes down we are royally screwed.
We need to add 1 or 2 really classy players a year, while replacing average with average and we'll be competing for top 4 in 2 or 3 years. I'm not sure our recruiting and player development is up to it. Last year Vlastun and a potential in McBean before that Ellis. Its not a great hit rate. Geelong had one super year with about 6 players that made their great team. I forget the year.
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99 and 01 - I think
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Yeah we are nailing our 1st pick(thank God!) but getting little else atm. I started a thread a while back stating that if the likes of Batch, Griff, Elton, Astbury, Helbig, McDonough, Arnott and in 1 or 2 years McIntosh and McBean fail to step up then we will plateau and just be making up the numbers. To be serious contenders, 3-4 of those 2nd and 3rd round picks must stand up in 2014 and become starting 22 players for us. If that happens we will launch a serious crack from 2015 and beyond, if not, not simply bc we wont be improving faster than the other sides.
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Conca-Cotchin.-Deledio-Ellis-Martin-Morris-Vlastuin
Grimes-Maric-McBean-Rance-Riewoldt-Vickery
Surely,Ramps, and co... at least half the building blocks are in place? We need a good run with injury, good coaching and team selection, and the other spots to be filled by people who can compliment the core of the team with competent footy (ie. Not nahas mcgaune types)
We might not win a flag in next five yeats... yet surely we should be regularly top 8? >:(
regularly top 8 like nought you mean?
Its about flags bents and while yes we have a good core we have limited class in our forward half and if jack goes down we are royally screwed.
Nah more like Sydney
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Conca-Cotchin.-Deledio-Ellis-Martin-Morris-Vlastuin
Grimes-Maric-McBean-Rance-Riewoldt-Vickery
Surely,Ramps, and co... at least half the building blocks are in place? We need a good run with injury, good coaching and team selection, and the other spots to be filled by people who can compliment the core of the team with competent footy (ie. Not nahas mcgaune types)
We might not win a flag in next five yeats... yet surely we should be regularly top 8? >:(
regularly top 8 like nought you mean?
Its about flags bents and while yes we have a good core we have limited class in our forward half and if jack goes down we are royally screwed.
ja
but i would of thought if
T Walker
Gunston
Cloke
Tippett
Waite
Petrie
Westoff
etc. go down each club respectful would be in trouble
granted we rely on reiwoldt heavily - but we have Vickery, Mcbean, Griffiths, Elton, OHanlon, Astbury
in the past we have far less young kpp comming thou the ranks, as such
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Vickery has shown glimpses.
McBean not ready, too skinny, and no AFL time so far.
The rest haven't really shown anything/enough.
If Jack goes down we'll be relying more on midfielder goals IMO.
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Bean will kick goals at AFL level next year.
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I noticed the plural but I hope he kicks more than 2 goals. Question is, who gets dropped out of Jack, Vickery (key forwards) and Hampson (alleged pinch-hitter-to-be). Or are we going with 4 talls? lol
Because McBean will be too skinny to ruck and Vickery hasn't shown enough in that department although my money is on Hampson.
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Bean will replace Magaune/ A. Edwards. He will not be required to ruck or crash packs. Just needs to use his gazelle-like pace and majestic skills to jag sausages on the oppo's third best defender. Will be a nightmare for oppo' coaches.. :shh
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I noticed the plural but I hope he kicks more than 2 goals. Question is, who gets dropped out of Jack, Vickery (key forwards) and Hampson (alleged pinch-hitter-to-be). Or are we going with 4 talls? lol
Because McBean will be too skinny to ruck and Vickery hasn't shown enough in that department although my money is on Hampson.
HF X. Vickery. X
FF. Mcbean. Riewoldt. X
Ruck. Maric / Hampson
I don't think its "crazy tall" ? If they want the extra small hampson vfl
In the past have we played maric / orren + jack/Vickery. With mcgaune or a Edwards. ?
The trend seems to be with the better sides playing two rucks and subbing on off. Hawthorn has shown a number of kpp in the same 22 can work.
Mcbean plays like a hff
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A.Edwards is shorter than most of our midfield - hell, even Morris is a centimetre taller. He's more like a less mobile, more orthodox Mitch Morton - who, funnily enough, is also taller than Edwards.
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true but he does play much taller
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Aaron Edwards is short yet plays tall- hence 100 goals for frankston in the vfl 2006
And we have been using him as a key forward / 3rd tall in rotation with mcgane
I don't see why mcbean (or Griffiths, Elton) can structurally directly replace them
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its not currently best 22 but its the future and id be giving it every opportunity to work.
b/ morris - chaplin - grimes.
hb/ mcintosh - rance - dea
c/ ellis - martin - deledio/pick12 acres
r/ maric - vlastuin - cotchin.
h/f knights - astbury/vickery/elton - pick 12 acres :pray/deledio/ohanlon
f/ hampson - riewoldt - mcdonough.
int/ conca - foley - jackson - helbig/arnot.
emg/ houli- grigg- newman- edwards- edwards - griffiths.
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Conca-Cotchin.-Deledio-Ellis-Martin-Morris-Vlastuin
Grimes-Maric-McBean-Rance-Riewoldt-Vickery
Surely,Ramps, and co... at least half the building blocks are in place? We need a good run with injury, good coaching and team selection, and the other spots to be filled by people who can compliment the core of the team with competent footy (ie. Not nahas mcgaune types)
We might not win a flag in next five yeats... yet surely we should be regularly top 8? >:(
regularly top 8 like nought you mean?
Its about flags bents and while yes we have a good core we have limited class in our forward half and if jack goes down we are royally screwed.
We need to add 1 or 2 really classy players a year, while replacing average with average and we'll be competing for top 4 in 2 or 3 years. I'm not sure our recruiting and player development is up to it. Last year Vlastun and a potential in McBean before that Ellis. Its not a great hit rate. Geelong had one super year with about 6 players that made their great team. I forget the year.
i agree in the main with your posts in this thread . i think it important though if we have a player who is clearly top 22 and clearly lacks in some basic areas of the game that regularly comes back to bite, you must be looking to upgrade. in a lot of cases it isnt a hard thing to do. you cant be looking for a like for like. the key is to raise the overall standard of the list or a particular area of the list with every singe transaction that we do.
imo we need to find at a minimum 3 to 4 classy thru good players every yr just to maintain the list at a high level. and we need to do it until we rach a point where we actually have very good depth and we can trade our players out for quality picks and players.
getting first rounders right is imperative every yr and kudos to the club over the last 3 or so yrs they have done that. buuuuttt we just have to start getting one of the 2nd or 3rd round selections right. we do need to target well rounded mature players especially in trades. ffs petterd grigg lonergan orren king nahas hampson miller.etc etc etc etc etc etc it goes on and on. i dont have a problem in getting these players to serve a purpose, as the list improves some of the reasons to take these types will disappear. but we just have to be always looking for better.
also if lets say theoretically every club turns over 5 players on ave every yr from the list proper, over a 8 yr period you will theoreticlly turn over your entire list or there abouts. i cant see any club growing or improving enough to ever be a contender if they are only finding 1 or 2 decent players a yr. especially if they are coming from a low base.
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claws thoughts in regards to tall strucuce circa 2009:
agree very silly statement from jackson. and its worse than you say. moore is not a kp mcguane and graham are not up to afl standard and browne is a rookie who has a long long way to go.
post while taken to play kpf is more likely a kpd. vickery sheepoohought he was a ruckman what jackson is doing lumping him in as a permanent forward is bewildering.
ive done this before and will do it again. look at the structure of the majority of sides on any given game day.
it usually goes
b/ ***** genuine big bodied kpd. *****
hb/ ***** genuine big bodied kd. third tall
c/ ***** ***** *****
hf/ ****** genuine marking chf *****
f/ ***** genuine ff third tall
r/ ruckman ****** ******
int ruckman ***** ***** possibly tall running utility
yep most clubs will take 8 talls into games each week and more if you have a tall like corey who plays as a mid but structurally 8 is normally it.
in moving forward we dont have enough for decent structure it is a disgrace.
the ideal is cover for each position so you would have 6 tall defenders 4 of which are capable of playing kp and holding their own. ditto for tall forwards and 4 ruckmen. of course you will have roughly 10 at or close to afl standard the rest should be in various stages of development.
it also goes to say if you need 16 who you are reasonably sure can play at afl level and will become afl standard you will have to load up with surplus talls we all know every pick we take wont make it the fail rate for clubs is somewhere between 30 and 40 percent.
the amount of work that has to be done in this area is staggering.
having said this in no way should we waste pick 3 by targeting a tall with it who is not best available.
*note, pre-sub rule.
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Noted
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cant be accused of being inconsistent.
its the kind of structure that has constantly won premierships over the last god knows how many yrs. its not hard to look at what good sides have done well and learn from them.
have always said if you need 8 talls on game day you need another 8 in the twos mimicking what you do.
you need about 10 12 who are capable of playing at the level when form and injury hits in each area. one of our problems atm is we have just 5 or 6 who perform consistently at the required level.
16 talls on your list has always been a minimum for me.im inclined to go with a project ruck or key forward as well.
its the same for mids you go with on average 9 to 10 genuine mids every week. a few may perform flanking roles but they are mids first and formost. look at us conca,cotchin,ellie,foley, grigg,jackson,martin, vlastuin and tuck. to me its common sense you try to mirror this in the twos. its certainly something we have failed to do at coburg.
it leaves 4 or 5 places in your team for specialist roles shutdown med defender like morris sml defender houli newman a sml forward medium forwards edwards king ohanlon etc mirror this and you need about 8 of these types all up.
on forwards hawthorn went with 2 ruckmen and 3 tall forwards. but they were in the enviable position of having two of those talls franklin and gunston who move like medium sized flankers.
imo the tall player type we lack is a gunston. we have astbury jack vickery, elton, mcbean hampson griffiths all 195cm or more the type we dont have is gunston, for me a player like jon marsh would compliment our forward structure enormously if we were to take him in the nd. 191cm super quick and versatile. its what we are screaming out for.
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The wallet is correct
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Mrakov whats with the negativity of late?
in 2013 we made the finals for the first time since the wheel was invented
we achieved record membership
we are DEBT FREE
punt road oval is looking like a bowling green
we signed up all our stars
we had smooth transition of power at the club
and a CEO who seems the ants pants.
Now cheer up Mr mrakov and get with the plan :cheers
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Mrakov whats with the negativity of late?
in 2013 we made the finals for the first time since the wheel was invented
we achieved record membership
we are DEBT FREE
punt road oval is looking like a bowling green
we signed up all our stars
we had smooth transition of power at the club
and a CEO who seems the ants pants.
Now cheer up Mr mrakov and get with the plan :cheers
Just saying, top 4 is a must with this really easy draw. I'd even say top 2 should be very achievable
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much better..Ta