One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: JohnF on June 05, 2004, 11:10:24 PM
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Brad Ottens was voted the worst player on the ground (interpreted as the "least effective") by Paul Salmon on triple M radio.
Whilst I dont think he was our worst, he was pretty ineffective. He got quite a few tap outs but not a lot were to our advantage. He got 10 possessions, kicking a goal and a couple points. I think this was quite a standard game from Brad and I now come to expect performances like this from him.
A lot has been made of how he wants to go back to Adelaide. Personally, I'd book him a first class ticket outta here. He isn't an essential player. We could get another ruckman at a third of the price to do the same job without having hype surround him.
I'm not saying he is a useless player, but neither is he necessary to our team.
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Brown,Kraks and Cogs and Johnno are the only necessities we have followed by a couple of the kids.
Time to re-build around them.
Anyone else should get out the ky.
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Agree... How sad is it that two of those players weren't even blooded at our club... :'(
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I would sign up Otto tomorrow if I could. He's got the talent and plenty of years ahead of him but is suffering from three things which are hindering his development - (i) dud coaches with a non-existent modern gameplan, (ii) mostly dumb and/or skill-less teammates and (iii) most importantly a proper specialist and former great VFL/AFL ruck coach. For crying out loud how was he meant to learn the specialist art of rucking from Stewart Loewe :o. Get Sam Newman, Simon Madden or Scott Wynd down to Tigerland.
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Ottens is a joke
time to get rid of him, its obvious he doesnt want to be here, adelaide would give us a 1st round pick and it would be a top first round pick too. Let the crows wait year after year for his so called "potential" to come out.
he is useless.
If from what i have read in articles about this years draft being rich in KPP then I cant see a better time to get rid of him.
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Brad has had heaps of time to develop.
We need naturally talented and gifted players.
The delivery of the ball to him is a not the issue.
On countless occasions Brad has been one on one and either been beaten or dropped marks.
He is a thinner version of that prized recruit we once had in Richard Lounder!
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Totally agree MT. A couple of years ago, Otto and Richo sent fear in the hearts of the opposition - not anymore. I don't think Ottens even really likes being in the ruck and maybe that's half the problem. Get Mark Lee or anyone else - except Stewie Loewe, who I would hold responsible for all the bad habits. Give him a year with a new coach and see if it makes a difference.
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Get Sam Newman, Simon Madden or Scott Wynd down to Tigerland.
We had Scott Wynd for 1 season but he went back to the Bulldogs when Wallace left.
Was one of the first appointments Rhodes made - getting Wynd back at the Club.
There isn't and wont be a ruck coach at Richmond this season :P
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Trade him. Alot of supporters would disagree but he obvioulsy doesn't want to be here and we will at least get something decent for him. His pay check and perceived value far outweighs his output and real value. We have suffered in the past in that we haven't faced facts with these type of players and they have really hurt the club. Just look at Daffy, Holland, Borke, Gaspar before him.
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I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but does anyone else think he isn't 100%? He was in doubt before the game against West Coast.
I might be wrong, but the last two seeks, he seems to have spent a lot of time up forward. You would think that if he were fit he would be spending more time in the middle of the ground.
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I'm not trying to make excuses for him, but does anyone else think he isn't 100%? He was in doubt before the game against West Coast.
I might be wrong, but the last two seeks, he seems to have spent a lot of time up forward. You would think that if he were fit he would be spending more time in the middle of the ground.
The thought has certainly crossed my mind TS.
Over in Perth when they were doing thier warm up he didn't do any work in the centre sqaure and didn't go onto the ball at all during that game. This week he spent minimal time in the ruck.
There has been whispers that he has been carrying a kneew injury most of the season.
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There has been whispers that he has been carrying a kneew injury most of the season.
If that’s the case, it’s good to know we’re looking after the long-term future of our players. >:(
We play Cogs when some of us knew he shouldn’t have played through the pre season and now we’re playing Otto while he’s not right and will not get right by continuing to play. >:( ::)
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There isn't and wont be a ruck coach at Richmond this season :P
That's a disgrace >:(. We supposedly pumped all this extra money into the footy department ($800K wasn't it?) yet we don't bother to hire a specialist ruck coach. Professionalism at Tigerland - what a joke!
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Trade him. Alot of supporters would disagree but he obvioulsy doesn't want to be here and we will at least get something decent for him. His pay check and perceived value far outweighs his output and real value. We have suffered in the past in that we haven't faced facts with these type of players and they have really hurt the club. Just look at Daffy, Holland, Borke, Gaspar before him.
Top post Harry,
About time Richmond people started to realise exactly this point. He is totally overated and will hurt us more if we keep him than if we trade him. For too long at Richmond we have kept these so called "potential" players and it just doesnt work, we could easily get more than his worth at years end with his age and being a tall player, we could be the ones laughing at such a trade in 2-3 years time.
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Still cannot help but think what a difference a new coach could make to the likes of Ottens, Schulz and Newman to name a few.
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Ottens, dont worry about him being called BIG SEXY more like BIG UNDER ACHIEVER, trade him please.
He is weak as pee for a big man, he doesnt even hurt the grass he runs on.
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I reckon with the right development from the right people,and a change of attitude from a hard assed coach who would demand more from him could still bring out the superstar quality that sleeps within the big guy.
Ruckman dont play there best footy till there mid to late 20s.
Id keep him,but on less dough for sure,and if he wont cop that...then roll in bidders.
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A lot has been made of how he wants to go back to Adelaide. Personally, I'd book him a first class ticket outta here. He isn't an essential player. We could get another ruckman at a third of the price to do the same job without having hype surround him.
I'm not saying he is a useless player, but neither is he necessary to our team.
If I was Brad Ottens I'd probably want to go back to Adelaide too if I was getting the kind of support and development i was getting at Richmond. The problem isn't Ottens, it's how he is being developed that is the criminal act here. A champion is being ruined here by incompetent masters and if you think a ruckmen with a third of the price of Ottens is going to do any better you are kidding yourself because that new Ruckmen will still have the same incompetent coaches and will never turn into anything remotely successful. Ottens isn't the one that needs to be gotten rid of, the coaches are the targets that need to be shot from guns and only then will Ottens and others too will have the opportunity to forfill there full potential.
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I would sign up Otto tomorrow if I could. He's got the talent and plenty of years ahead of him but is suffering from three things which are hindering his development - (i) dud coaches with a non-existent modern gameplan, (ii) mostly dumb and/or skill-less teammates and (iii) most importantly a proper specialist and former great VFL/AFL ruck coach. For crying out loud how was he meant to learn the specialist art of rucking from Stewart Loewe :o. Get Sam Newman, Simon Madden or Scott Wynd down to Tigerland.
I would sign him up tommorrow too after telling him that he will have a whole new coaching staff to work with next year
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Ottens is a joke
time to get rid of him, its obvious he doesnt want to be here, adelaide would give us a 1st round pick and it would be a top first round pick too. Let the crows wait year after year for his so called "potential" to come out.
he is useless.
If from what i have read in articles about this years draft being rich in KPP then I cant see a better time to get rid of him.
This is short sighted and is not looking at the real why of his demise. Ottens isn't useless by a long shot, he is just surrounded by idiots in the coaching box. Mark Coughlan will go the same way as Ottens if nothing changes and so will Brown. Kane Johnsons skills have already started down hill since his joining the club.
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If I was Brad Ottens I'd probably want to go back to Adelaide too if I was getting the kind of support and development i was getting at Richmond. The problem isn't Ottens, it's how he is being developed that is the criminal act here. A champion is being ruined here by incompetent masters and if you think a ruckmen with a third of the price of Ottens is going to do any better you are kidding yourself because that new Ruckmen will still have the same incompetent coaches and will never turn into anything remotely successful. Ottens isn't the one that needs to be gotten rid of, the coaches are the targets that need to be shot from guns and only then will Ottens and others too will have the opportunity to forfill there full potential.
Absolutely agree Rodgeramjet. I can’t believe people want to get rid of Otto. That’s not going to change or solve anything, because, as you’ve correctly stated, he’s not necessarily the problem.
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LOL
Ottens = No Heart, Over valued underachiever
he is a dud and if he expects Richmond to increase his pay contract at years end I'll be happy to open the door for him at Puntroad and show him the way out.
When was the last time this "potential" star took a game by the scruff of the neck like it had been touted he good do the minute he came to Richmond?
once again another Richmond player who we throw all our success starve hope at yet gets away with playing one good game now and then.
in 2 years time after we throw a heap of money at him to stay this year he will be at exactly where he is now "potential" star, yet by that time he will fall into the Gaspar model of not being worth a grain of salt come trade time because no one will want him.
Get rid of him now while he appears to be of some value, Id be happy to bet a nice quid that he wouldnt eventuate into a star at which ever club he goes to.
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thats a bit of a cop out excuse rodgerramjet
so you blame the coaches he has been under for his failure?
funny that but I thought the same thing was being said about Richo earlier this year, yet this year he has been one of our better players under spud the dud.
I think it goes both ways not one way both the coachng staff and yes believe it or not the player concerned are at fault for his lack of development, which to me points out that he doesnt have what it takes to perform on a consistant basis. If he isnt prepared to put in the hard yards after 5-6 seasons now then he isnt worth the time.
Time to go Bradley before your "value" runs out.
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Trade him. Alot of supporters would disagree but he obvioulsy doesn't want to be here and we will at least get something decent for him. His pay check and perceived value far outweighs his output and real value. We have suffered in the past in that we haven't faced facts with these type of players and they have really hurt the club. Just look at Daffy, Holland, Borke, Gaspar before him.
Top post Harry,
About time Richmond people started to realise exactly this point. He is totally overated and will hurt us more if we keep him than if we trade him. For too long at Richmond we have kept these so called "potential" players and it just doesnt work, we could easily get more than his worth at years end with his age and being a tall player, we could be the ones laughing at such a trade in 2-3 years time.
You people seem to think that we have an ability to develop players down their at Richmond. I've got news for you WE DON'T. It wont matter what players we get, they will not develop under the current structure. You want to get rid of Ottens? too get in whom? Do you think we will all of a sudden be able to develop him the new person? Not on your life. We need to be able to get people who can do that before we will be able to do that and that doesn't involve getting rid of our better players, that would be disastrous.
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Still cannot help but think what a difference a new coach could make to the likes of Ottens, Schulz and Newman to name a few.
A mountain of difference.
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I reckon with the right development from the right people,and a change of attitude from a hard assed coach who would demand more from him could still bring out the superstar quality that sleeps within the big guy.
Ruckman dont play there best footy till there mid to late 20s.
Id keep him,but on less dough for sure,and if he wont cop that...then roll in bidders.
Great, someone who's actually looking.
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Rodger rodger rodger,
you seem to be blaming our current plight on the coaching staff.
got news for you too buddy!! It wouldnt be the fact that perhaps at Richmond we have a number of overated hacks that supporters admire for performing once in a blue moon
hate to be the burden of bad news but the coach isnt the only reason for our lack of success its also the lack of decent talent we have running around on the park every week.
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A lot has been made of how he wants to go back to Adelaide. Personally, I'd book him a first class ticket outta here. He isn't an essential player. We could get another ruckman at a third of the price to do the same job without having hype surround him.
I'm not saying he is a useless player, but neither is he necessary to our team.
If I was Brad Ottens I'd probably want to go back to Adelaide too if I was getting the kind of support and development i was getting at Richmond. The problem isn't Ottens, it's how he is being developed that is the criminal act here. A champion is being ruined here by incompetent masters and if you think a ruckmen with a third of the price of Ottens is going to do any better you are kidding yourself because that new Ruckmen will still have the same incompetent coaches and will never turn into anything remotely successful. Ottens isn't the one that needs to be gotten rid of, the coaches are the targets that need to be shot from guns and only then will Ottens and others too will have the opportunity to forfill there full potential.
Rodge, then tell me why Ottens had a good year in 2001 under the admittedly incompetant Frawley? Why hadn't Frawley stunted his potential there?
Ottens strikes me as a confidence player, and if he was in a good team he'd probably be a star. But I don't think he is the type of player who burns with desire to turn the tables when things are going bad, as they are at Richmond. In my opinion, a player's character comes to the fore in troubled times, when everything is shot to schit. We are experiencing those times now, and Ottens hasn't stepped up at all. I don't think he is mentally strong enough to thrive in an environment where he has to make something happen rather than just rely on playing in a good team to kick start everything. He is too lackadaisical and lacks any killer instinct whatsoever.
If we improve as a team, I'm pretty sure we'd start seeing his form improve too. But seeing that we are probably going to be cellar dwellers for the next 3 years, i don't think we will get anything out of him in that time but the same limp wristed tap outs and taking the occasional good grab, as he is doing now.
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here here JohnF
couldnt have said it better myself.
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thats a bit of a cop out excuse rodgerramjet
No cop out just a fact.
so you blame the coaches he has been under for his failure?
Yes.
funny that but I thought the same thing was being said about Richo earlier this year, yet this year he has been one of our better players under spud the dud.
Richo is in exactly the same boat as Ottens, they will continue to have bigger than usuall up and down moments, Richo at the moment just happens to be on an up.
I think it goes both ways not one way both the coachng staff and yes believe it or not the player concerned are at fault for his lack of development, which to me points out that he doesnt have what it takes to perform on a consistant basis. If he isnt prepared to put in the hard yards after 5-6 seasons now then he isnt worth the time.
It does go both ways, but you have to be trained right, you can be putting in all the hard yards in the world but if those hard yards are the wrong way to go about things then your screwed. And that's whats happening.
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Rodger rodger rodger,
you seem to be blaming our current plight on the coaching staff.
got news for you too buddy!! It wouldnt be the fact that perhaps at Richmond we have a number of overated hacks that supporters admire for performing once in a blue moon
hate to be the burden of bad news but the coach isnt the only reason for our lack of success its also the lack of decent talent we have running around on the park every week.
No No No, we are talking about Brad Ottens here not the whole side. Of course we have hacks and they should be off loaded.
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Rodge, then tell me why Ottens had a good year in 2001 under the admittedly incompetant Frawley? Why hadn't Frawley stunted his potential there?
Because things take time. It takes time for things to go up and it takes time for things to deteriorate. What we are seeing now at the club are the ramifications of the coaching methods of the current coaches over the last several years. Coaching methods have a cumulative affect upon players over time, it can be good and it can be bad. I did an analysis (about a year ago) on the effects that a new coach and an old coach can have on a club. I found out that It can take between 18 and 24 months to acertain the true effect that a new coach is having on the club. It can however be shorter but in most cases isn't. This can be a large subject and i've given you a very breif finding under the condition of most ordinary circumstance.
Ottens strikes me as a confidence player, and if he was in a good team he'd probably be a star.
If he was in a good team, he'd have a good coach wouldn't he? and yes he'd be a star
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I agree Rodg.
Fralwy has set this club back 10 years not to mention
the damage he's done to individuals careers and mindset.
I'm serious when i say we'll need to put the team thru some
psycho counselling to reverse the effects of the nuff nuff potato man.
We are the most un-professional sporting outfit in the World at a
professional level.Our players have to help strap ankles at training.
Sound like Moorabin in the 80s ???? :'( - Wonder why.
My point is that spud the dud has killed us in more than one way.
You could easily say he "incapacitated" Ottens in what should have
been his definitive years but I guess we'll never really know.
Otto is over the clu and who can blame him.
Under Sheedy or even Wallace Ottens would have been brought up to be a man
instead regressing into a little boy.
Success starts on the field.
Blame Danny or the appointment of Danny for everything. :'(
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It's a bit of both.
There is no doubt that Frawley and his fellow clowns have stunted the development of Ottens and many others..........no doubt about that. He would be a better at a better club with a better coach.
However, how much better could he be.
IMO there is no excuse for his lack of aggression at the contest, his lack of enthusiasm when the team is down, and his of assertiveness on the ground. These are natural characteristics of players - they are either hard or they're not. There is a limit on how much a better coach can improve this aspect of a player.
I have major concerns over his aggression and his willingness to put his body in and physically hurt the opposition. He looks scared at times.
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You're right Harry,It is a bit of both.
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Rodge, then tell me why Ottens had a good year in 2001 under the admittedly incompetant Frawley? Why hadn't Frawley stunted his potential there?
Because things take time. It takes time for things to go up and it takes time for things to deteriorate. What we are seeing now at the club are the ramifications of the coaching methods of the current coaches over the last several years. Coaching methods have a cumulative affect upon players over time, it can be good and it can be bad. I did an analysis (about a year ago) on the effects that a new coach and an old coach can have on a club. I found out that It can take between 18 and 24 months to acertain the true effect that a new coach is having on the club. It can however be shorter but in most cases isn't. This can be a large subject and i've given you a very breif finding under the condition of most ordinary circumstance.
Ottens strikes me as a confidence player, and if he was in a good team he'd probably be a star.
If he was in a good team, he'd have a good coach wouldn't he? and yes he'd be a star
Ok, of course spud has to take the heat, but where do we draw the line? If you use the argument that Frawley is to blame for stunting his growth as a footballer, why can't we use similar arguments for all the duds on our list? I could say well, if it wasn't for Frawley, Bowden would have been a champion! If it wasn't for Frawey, Fiora would have been built like a tank! If it wasn't for Frawley, Pettifer would be the hardest man in the comp! If it wasn't for Frawley, Billy Nicholls would have a six pack!
Yes i'm exaggerating, but the point I'm trying to make is, at what point do you stop blaming others and take responsibility for your own performances? I agree that Frawley is a goose, but there is no way known that the only thing wrong with the club is the coaches. The players are sub-standard as well and we have to realise that.
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LMAOO@Everyone being right.
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Perhaps you think Ottens has shown enough to suggest that with a good coach he could be something, whereas the others that I mentioned haven't. Ok, well I don't really agree, but if he wants to stay we will definitely resign him, and once spud is gone we shall see what happens to him. Hopefully he does begin to flourish and the damage Frawley has done to him can be reversed...
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LMAOO@Everyone being right.
laughingmaoooo!
Except frawley!
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However, how much better could he be.
He could be alot better
IMO there is no excuse for his lack of aggression at the contest, his lack of enthusiasm when the team is down, and his of assertiveness on the ground.
None of us like to see this, but recognise that when you see this in a team or an individual for that matter that it is a symptom of something far deeper.
These are natural characteristics of players - they are either hard or they're not. There is a limit on how much a better coach can improve this aspect of a player..
This is a false datum that is expoused by a few so call "expert commentators" around the place it is totally untrue.
I have major concerns over his aggression and his willingness to put his body in and physically hurt the opposition. He looks scared at times.
Maybe he is, but I doubt it. probably more apathetic than anything else.
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Snottens was on Sen tonight which i just caught the end of - did anyone hear him and can report what he said??
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Dont wory Brad,I believe in you mate.
Just stuff Frawley off and u have reason to live again.
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I dont reckon he's scared,he's completely shot of confidence.
We all saw him in 2001 taking pack buster grabs and kicking 50 odd goals.
He isn't an aggressive player,but he has enough size and talent to be a good player.
When he gets a mental edge and fully motivated, he could be a great player. l hope its with us.
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I think we willl have to agree to disagree Roger
I tend to have the same view as Harry on this one
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Ottens strikes me as a confidence player, and if he was in a good team he'd probably be a star. But I don't think he is the type of player who burns with desire to turn the tables when things are going bad, as they are at Richmond. In my opinion, a player's character comes to the fore in troubled times, when everything is shot to schit. We are experiencing those times now, and Ottens hasn't stepped up at all. I don't think he is mentally strong enough to thrive in an environment where he has to make something happen rather than just rely on playing in a good team to kick start everything. He is too lackadaisical and lacks any killer instinct whatsoever.
If we improve as a team, I'm pretty sure we'd start seeing his form improve too. But seeing that we are probably going to be cellar dwellers for the next 3 years, i don't think we will get anything out of him in that time but the same limp wristed tap outs and taking the occasional good grab, as he is doing now.
I understand your line of thinking and agree with your comments to an extent JohnF. However, in assessing Otto, you’ve probably described many players at AFL Clubs. So you have to ask why those who are similar to Otto at other Clubs can perform better. It could well be because they are in a better team or at a better Club. So it’s not that you can’t do something with such players, but more that we just can’t do anything with them. Do we then give up on them? And where’s the certainty that any new player will perform any better or become any different? History, at our Club, says they won’t. From that perspective, it’s probably criminal that we have talented players at this Club, because no one will get to see that talent, unless we change our ways.
We can blame recruiting for the fact that we have accumulated players who possess the necessary commitment to play at this level and not necessarily the required ability. But who do we blame for those who seem to have lots of ability, but a perceived lack of commitment, amongst other things? As others have pointed out, I agree that any responsibility needs to be equally shared between player and coach. But I think there’s a lot more to it than just that.
I don’t know if it’s rare, or I just think it’s rare because I’ve been watching Richmond for too long, that you get players with all the necessary attributes to be a good footballer. And this is where coaching comes into it.
Paul Dimattina was on 3AW last night talking about Peter Rohde and his view was that it was the Coach’s responsibility to communicate, inspire, motivate and develop confidence in his players (nothing new there) and he didn’t believe Rohdes has that ability.
My eternal frustration has been that we can’t be seen to have done any of that for a sustained period of time, regardless of who the coach has been or what players he has had at his disposal. And as far as confidence goes, our players would be at the bottom of the pile, not too far from where we are on the ladder at the moment. Building confidence in players is the responsibility of the coaching staff. How some Clubs manufacture, generate and instill the necessary team spirit, that seems so lacking amongst our playing group, seems a mystery to all at RFC.
Regardless of a player’s character and personality, it is the coaching staff’s role to work with the talent and ability players possess and to get out of them what they are already capable of and more. Otherwise, they might as well be left to fend for themselves. It wouldn’t surprise me to know that this is what has been happening at our Club, to a certain extent, and would explain a lot of things.
We can blame the coach and/or players for all of this, but because it has not just been one coach in particular or the same group of players who never seem to reach anything like acceptable standards then you could say that it has to do with the workings of the Club as a whole. Mind you, we’re not alone in this.
And unless the people that run the place wake up to the fact that we need to put in place a structure, from top to bottom, that supports the playing group and gives them every opportunity to develop then we’re just kidding ourselves if we think we just need to recruit better players or get a better coach in order to improve.
You only have to look at the well run and administered Clubs to see how they get the best out of their players and magically seem to recruit all the good players. All Clubs have their fair share of talented players, but not all of them seem capable of doing something with it.
The truth is that our set up has been shoddy for a long time. And it’s definitely not right to blame anyone in particular for the way things are. However, someone, somewhere along the line, has to start taking responsibility, if we are ever going to get out of this black hole.
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That's a real good post TS,
And I agree that there is more wrong with our club than just the players and the coaches. That's for sure.
However, my opinion is that players who need motivation by others, players who need too much support, players who need lots of confidence before they start playing well, are players that are not necessary to a team. It seems they lack some things that are very important, mental strength, and a strong will.
Mental fragility means the players fortunes will fluctuate with how their environment is progressing. So long as things are going good they will be fine. But when the hard times come, and inevitably they will come, if the players start to look around and wait for others to do something, then the team's going to be in trouble. A player with mental strength keeps it together, and doesn't go to water if things aren't going their way. Strong willed individuals understand that the ultimate source of help lies from within, not from outside and they automatically move to counteract the pressure the environment has placed them under.
It seems funny that the two qualities I mention, mental strength and a strong will, are something that I believe recruiters do not look at whatsoever, and its something that can't really be tested until the player is subjected to the harshest conditions. No wonder so many draftees fall by the way-side. Recruiters are much more interested with testing how high someone can jump, how long they can kick, how fast they can run, how far they can run and how good their skills are.
Now, no doubt it is also the job of coaches and the clubs with the right support networks and structures to get the most out of their players, and for players like Ottens they have failed. But ultimately the buck stops with every individual player. Some things can never be taught. Support and nursing only really work when the individual is mentally strong and has a strong will to begin with. If they don't they will just feed off the environment they find themselves in, which at some point, will become difficult. That's why Ottens, although he is a good player, shouldn't be looked at as being essential to the team.
One thing the players can do nothing about, and for which it is the job of the coach, is to institute a game plan that works with the personnel you have at your disposal. Frawley hasn't done this and to some extent, this is why Ottens isn't playing that well. This, above anything else, should be the reason why Spud is given the ars at the end of the year (his failture to institute a game plan which suits the players he has to work with and which can consistently give us opportunities to win games).
There are lots of other things wrong with the club, starting with its culture. We are guided by emotion rather than reason most of the time, we are very unprofessional (esp. with how they players train), we have become cynical and disenchanted with a long period of failure etc. But maybe I'll have a go talking about them later on.
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Yep - good call spirit.
As the saying goes - success breeds success - its amazing how players develop in a successful team. Have a look at young Richard Hadlee at the Lions for example. He is a run of the mill youngster coming through the ranks - nothing special in my books. But he is playing with champions and soon he will become a champion himself. If he were at the tigers he would soon become another dud. It would be amazing to see what type of players the likes of Ottens, Tivendale, Newman, Krakour (all players that I consider naturally talented) would have become if they started their carreers at Brisbane. They would be dominating.
It comes back to my cancer theory - where bad football habits, tendencies and attitude are passed down from player to player.
When I say habits and tendencies, I refer to a players habits and instincts in the heat of battle. Examples are -
- Whether the player kicks blindly under pressure, or whether he has confidence to hold the ball, evade a tackle knowing that there will be a player running to support.
- Whether the player is prepared to leave his man and run upfield to support teamates or whether he'd prefer to sit back, take the safe option, and ensure his man doesn't get a kick if the ball rebounds back.
- Whether a players first instinct when getting the ball is to accelerate forward and run at the opposition and really put them on the back foot, or whether it is to jog backwards, sideways and chip to a teamate lateral to him.
- Whether the player instinctively runs past a player in possession, to demand a handball to quickly move play along, or whether he'd rather stand behind or lateral to the play, hands on hips and watch his teamate kick long because the player is afraid of stuffing up if they initiated a play on situation.
- Whether the player reacts under pressure by settling down and trying to go down the middle to really put pressure on the opposition, or he'd rather go up the wings as the impact of a turnover and the risk is lower.
- Whether a player is prepared to put in that extra yard to apply a shepherd or whether he takes the foot off the pedal to rest up a bit thinking(hoping) that the player chasing his teamate might not catch him (this overlaps into attitude also).
Attitude relates to just that - the attitude of the players when they are on the ground - when they are in front and behind on the scoreboard. Attitudes are easily passed down from player to player. If the leadership group drop their heads, don't encourage, don't chase, fight and bleed for the cause then this attitude so easily becomes the attitude of the younger guys.
IMO the learning curve for a footballer in terms of playing habits and attitudes is the steepest between the ages of 17-23. Skills are learnt in the junior days - if a player can't kick before he's 17, then there's little hope that he will learn the mechanics after that. But attitude and playing habits are learnt after that, and these aspects determine who will be the next champion and who will not.
When you have players like Campbell, Gaspar, Kellaway, Chaffey, Bowden, Ottens, Richo etc setting the example it is just natural that the kids coming through pick up their habits and attitude. The same way these guys inhereted these traits from players like Gale, Knights, Kellaway, Turner, Daffy, Rogers etc before them.
IMO a strong coach is required to eradicate this cancer - one who is prepared to punish, drag and demote any player, regardles of seniority, for any bad habit and bad attitude displayed on the ground. In order it doesn't continue to spread.
Along with this some, if not most, senior players should be moved on......like amputating a limb to stop the cancer spreading.
An influx of youth and enthusiasm is then needed while the strong and competent coach starts teaching them good habits and good attitudes.
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lmfaooooo, Harry, you make some great points. But if success breeds success, then we should still be successful. We had great success 20-30 years ago. How come the subsequent players didn't follow suit and develop the attitudes of the tigers of old? Maybe we started going wrong with the coaches we employed. We have had some bad coaches in the time where we have lacked success, but we have also had some coaches that could coach. E.g. Premiership coach Robert Walls (hate the prick, but he did win a flag as a coach). And we have still failed to have (much) success with him.
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Great posts TS and Harry.
Problem was John that towards the end of the period of success we lost most of our top seniors players in one go either through retiring or insanely traded >:(. We lost Bourke, Bartlett, Cloke, Wood, Raines, etc in the space of only a few years and given we had the worse VFL Zone of all the clubs we had no quality juniors coming through and disasterously led to us to recruiting dud replacements at high $$$. Crazy stuff! Even TJ in that Fighting Fury DVD admitted the Club had become a former shadow of itself in the brief time b/w his two coaching stints. All that culture of success sadly dissipated during the 80's within a couple of years.
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Losing Bourke and Bartlett can't be used as an excuse. They retired and should have passed on their succesful ways to the youth by the time they did. Possibly you are right about Cloke, Raines etc leaving though.
So how do we recapture the success we had? We've tried coach after coach. Cleaning the slate with the all the senior players and starting from scratch with a new coach just can't be done. So will the mediocre traits of the tiger elders of today be passed down to the tigers of tomorrow? Will we be stuck in a void of mediocrity forever more?
I beleive it comes down to the individuals and what they have burning inside them more than what others can teach them through supporting and nursing them along. Finding mentally strong and strong willed individuals is the key to a Tiger revival. The problem with this though, is that you can never really be sure that a player will have these qualities when you recruit them. In a way we jsut have to hope the luck falls our way and we unearth some players like this. Coughlan is definitely such a player. He is a player that is essential.
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However, my opinion is that players who need motivation by others, players who need too much support, players who need lots of confidence before they start playing well, are players that are not necessary to a team. It seems they lack some things that are very important, mental strength, and a strong will.
…
Now, no doubt it is also the job of coaches and the clubs with the right support networks and structures to get the most out of their players, and for players like Ottens they have failed. But ultimately the buck stops with every individual player. Some things can never be taught. Support and nursing only really work when the individual is mentally strong and has a strong will to begin with. If they don't they will just feed off the environment they find themselves in, which at some point, will become difficult. That's why Ottens, although he is a good player, shouldn't be looked at as being essential to the team.
JohnF and Harry H., why aren’t you two hard task masters down at our Club?
Great response JohnF.
Motivation determines a lot of things for players. And I tend to think we have the most unmotivated group going around, at least that’s how things appear from the results we achieve. Can we solely blame players for all of that and is that the truth anyway? I tend to think not. But more a case of what happens to players at our footy Club, because it’s not just an isolated case.
I don’t know that we can expect players to go out there and play to the best of their ability from day one, regardless of circumstances. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that. It’s different for all players and that’s where it’s up to coaches to help get the best out of them. They all possess an amount of ability, but the awareness, knowledge and experience they develop after that determines how much they do with that ability. In effect, players learn what they need to know as their career develops. As Harry H. alluded to, having good role models makes a difference in the way players learn and it’s in our interests to start all over again with our leadership group.
Good coaches come into their own because of the guidance, support and encouragement they offer players that makes a difference and helps build their confidence and self-belief. Without any of that, players may seem to be beyond help. And I can understand why some would think that some of our players just aren’t up to it. It’s true that you get to find out a lot about players when the going gets tough, but there again, I don’t think it’s all that clear cut for all players and I can’t see Otto as a lost cause just yet.
Maybe where we differ most is at what point you give up on someone. Maybe I’m just one of those people who cling on to false hope and have just become used to the never-ending frustration that I just don’t know when to let go. But I prefer to believe that everyone has an amount of inner strength. And just because we haven’t seen it yet, doesn’t mean it’s not there. It is doggone it. ;) ;D
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Attitude relates to just that - the attitude of the players when they are on the ground - when they are in front and behind on the scoreboard. Attitudes are easily passed down from player to player. If the leadership group drop their heads, don't encourage, don't chase, fight and bleed for the cause then this attitude so easily becomes the attitude of the younger guys.
…
An influx of youth and enthusiasm is then needed while the strong and competent coach starts teaching them good habits and good attitudes.
What can I say about your post Harry H. Great stuff.
It takes a rare individual to go against the trend Harry H., for any amount of time. Is it any wonder we cling on to any player who shows that capacity. It’s happened before that we have heralded players as the second coming, because they have stood out from their teammates, because of their attitude, only to see that promise short-lived when they invariably blend in with their environment.
I guess the reason why I haven’t lost hope altogether is because I believe our situation is retrievable, if we can get our act into gear and also because we seem to have recruited some young players who have some spirit about them and the attitude to match.
Whether that amounts to anything in the long-term who knows, but it’s something to cling on to at least.
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Cleaning the slate of a number of senior players has been done before. Malcolm Blight walked into the Crows and on his first day told their Captain (McDermott), VC (Tony McGuiness) and Andrew Jarman that it was time to go. From what someone on the inside a couple of years earlier told me these guys thought the club revolved around them and immuned from the chop. Blight had other ideas ;D. I'm not saying that's a guaranteed step towards success but come to think of it injuries have nobbled Cambo and rumours circle that Gas may get traded so it's not a fanciful idea ;).
The only way I can see us getting out of this merry-go-round given the restrictions of draft system is to clean-out the list over the next couple of years and rebuild. Freo and the Saints although they don't have a premiership yet appear to show the way in that regard. The draft always benefitted those Clubs (like Essendon) who had a strong quality core group as they could continually trade away then top up. We don't have that luxury. Never had in fact. We need a whole new coaching staff with a respected (and maybe feared) head coach who always demands high standards from every player and movitates them to give their best. Promote those who aren't part of "been around 5-10 years group" to the main leadership roles (generational change) and draft for youth.
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If success breeds success, which I agree to some point
then why have St Kilda only lost 1 game this year when a few seasons ago they were a rabble?
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Cleaning the slate of a number of senior players has been done before. Malcolm Blight walked into the Crows and on his first day told their Captain (McDermott), VC (Tony McGuiness) and Andrew Jarman that it was time to go. From what someone on the inside a couple of years earlier told me these guys thought the club revolved around them and immuned from the chop. Blight had other ideas ;D. I'm not saying that's a guaranteed step towards success but come to think of it injuries have nobbled Cambo and rumours circle that Gas may get traded so it's not a fanciful idea ;).
The only way I can see us getting out of this merry-go-round given the restrictions of draft system is to clean-out the list over the next couple of years and rebuild. Freo and the Saints although they don't have a premiership yet appear to show the way in that regard. The draft always benefitted those Clubs (like Essendon) who had a strong quality core group as they could continually trade away then top up. We don't have that luxury. Never had in fact. We need a whole new coaching staff with a respected (and maybe feared) head coach who always demands high standards from every player and movitates them to give their best. Promote those who aren't part of "been around 5-10 years group" to the main leadership roles (generational change) and draft for youth.
This seems to be the likely plan of attack and it will probably be instituted over the next couple of years. Let's hope it works. Hopefully it will with a bit of help from good drafting. With the amount of inexperienced players at the club already though, it might prove difficult to get off the ground. I suppose we will always have the comfort of the draft to help us out though...
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JohnF and Harry H., why aren’t you two hard task masters down at our Club?
Motivation determines a lot of things for players. And I tend to think we have the most unmotivated group going around, at least that’s how things appear from the results we achieve. Can we solely blame players for all of that and is that the truth anyway? I tend to think not. But more a case of what happens to players at our footy Club, because it’s not just an isolated case.
I don’t know that we can expect players to go out there and play to the best of their ability from day one, regardless of circumstances. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that. It’s different for all players and that’s where it’s up to coaches to help get the best out of them. They all possess an amount of ability, but the awareness, knowledge and experience they develop after that determines how much they do with that ability. In effect, players learn what they need to know as their career develops. As Harry H. alluded to, having good role models makes a difference in the way players learn and it’s in our interests to start all over again with our leadership group.
Good coaches come into their own because of the guidance, support and encouragement they offer players that makes a difference and helps build their confidence and self-belief. Without any of that, players may seem to be beyond help. And I can understand why some would think that some of our players just aren’t up to it. It’s true that you get to find out a lot about players when the going gets tough, but there again, I don’t think it’s all that clear cut for all players and I can’t see Otto as a lost cause just yet.
Maybe where we differ most is at what point you give up on someone. Maybe I’m just one of those people who cling on to false hope and have just become used to the never-ending frustration that I just don’t know when to let go. But I prefer to believe that everyone has an amount of inner strength. And just because we haven’t seen it yet, doesn’t mean it’s not there. It is doggone it. ;) ;D
Yeah TS, I guess I'm just sick of seeing our so called stars bend over and take it like its a natural occurence. My tolerance is pretty low at the moment. I find it hard to store faith in certain individuals when I see what they produce on some occasions. Hopefully players like Ottens can be rehabilitated with the right support. I find it a bit of a cop out though to let him off the hook and lay into others. Surely he must take responsibility for his performances.
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I will continue to knock Nottens for who he really is until the day he decides to throw a nice humble pie my way.
until that day i will only continue my 24 year old dream
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If success breeds success, which I agree to some point
then why have St Kilda only lost 1 game this year when a few seasons ago they were a rabble?
yeah good point PRR,
I also find it hard to believe that Grant Thomas is a special coach who is drawing all the best features out of the players down there. I suppose the simple answer is that they have copped their rodgerings and came out clean with some good pick ups in the draft.
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Thought provoking posting from everyone.
There's nothing really too add.
BTW,LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO
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I think we're onto something here boys - let's keep it going.
LMAOO at the hard task masters JohnF and myself standing around at richmond training with whip in hand.
Good point regarding going against the trend for any amount of time Spirit. Rodan is a perfect example. In his first year or so he was so enthusiastic, energetic, and vocally supportive on the ground. Now he's joined the Gaspars and the Kellaways in dropping the head and slouching the shoulders while slowly jogging back to position for a ball up after the opposition has kicked their 5th consecutive goal. I've also noticed this with Newman and Coughlan lately.
Gaspar might be an AA full back but his on field attitude and lethargic manner is definately adversely affecting players around him. Watching him on the field he definately appears as if he doesn't give a stuff. I watched him closely last week when the roos had a run-on (heck, there was nothing else to do). After we conceded a goal he would ALWAYs drop his head, keep to himself and just walk around looking lost. No words of encouragements, no patting on the back.....nothing. Even when we had the ball, he was doing his upmost to get into a position where he wouldn't be involved in the play. From a kick out he would make sure that he was near an opponent so the pass wouldn't come his way. It was quite astonishing considering he is in our leadership group, probably the highest paid player, and vice captain.
Gaspar, Kellaway, Chaffey, Campbell, and Bowden are the prime senior players that should be moved on. Trade what you can get and make Campbell retire. There is no more room for sentiment as these guys are holding the club back.
It's time to freshen up the place, as it has a vey stale taste to it. PLayers are going through the motions and they are all in zombie mode. We need change !! A new coach and a new coaching panel who will wake some of these guys up and develop and nurture those who need it. Also a new leadership group is required predominately made up of Coughlan, Johnson, Brown, Newman, Krakour, and possibly Ottens.
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lmfaooooo@our thought provoking posts provoking a LMFAOOOOO from Ox.
Harry, sounds good, but I am rather sceptical about the leadership qualities of players like Krakouer, Ottens, Newman.They need to help themselves before they can help others come on in my opinion. I would be pleased if they came out of their shell and started showing leadership qualities once the likes of Campbell and Gaspar were gone. But I wouldnt hold my breath on it.
lmfaooooooo@Richo escaping the cull as he is no longer considered leadership material and can be considered as a 17 year old child again.
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If success breeds success, which I agree to some point
then why have St Kilda only lost 1 game this year when a few seasons ago they were a rabble?
They off-loaded senior players who continually let them down including some duds they got from us Elliot, Ryan, Plapp and Robert Powell. Kept the class ones (Harvey) and went for youth. Also got lucky getting Hamill and Gehrig who both played previously for premiership winning clubs.
Geez other clubs' supporters would know their coach is a dud if he starts recruiting players from us :o. Good on you Timmy Watson and Tony Shaw ;D.
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LMFAO@ all the brotherly 'wow fantastic post you star' OER love in!!
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This is some basic sport psychology emailed to me by tennis coach Gavin Hopper.
We've obviously not read this at Richmond.
Some great points.
Outcome goals can be set instead of performance goals. Where an athlete using outcome goals fails to achieve the goal for reasons outside his or her control, this can be very dispiriting and can lead to loss of enthusiasm and feelings of failure.
Always set performance goals.
Goals can be set unrealistically high. When a goal is perceived to be unreachable,
no effort will be made to achieve it. Set realistic goals.
It was unrealistic to visualise success with spud at the helm
Conversely goals can be set so low that the athlete feels no challenge of benefit in achieving the goal.
Setting goals has been a waste of time. Always set goals that are challenging.
Goals can be so vague that they are useless: it is difficult to know whether vague goals have been achieved.
If achievement cannot be measured, then your self-confidence will not benefit from goal setting,
nor can you observe progress towards a greater goal.
Set precise, quantitative goals.
Goal setting can be unsystematic, sporadic and disorganised.
Here goals will be forgotten, achievement of goals will not be measured, and feedback
will not occur into new goals. The major benefits of goal setting have been lost.
Be organised and regular in the way that you use goal setting.
Too many goals may be set, leading to a feeling of overload.
Remember that you deserve time to relax and enjoy being human.
Where goal setting does go wrong, not only are the benefits of goal setting lost, but the whole process of goal setting can fall into disrepute.
By avoiding these problems, and setting goals effectively as described in the previous article,
you can achieve and maintain strong forward momentum.
Going by this Spud should never have even contemplated coaching at the elite level.
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Levels of Confidence
The way in which you are self-confident is important: if you are underconfident,
then you will not take risks that need to be taken. If you are over-confident, then you can end up not trying hard enough and losing.
Confidence should be based on observed reality.
It should be based on the achievement of performance goals:
you should be confident that you will perform up to your current abilities.
Good self-confidence comes from a realistic expectation of success based
on well practised physical skills, a good knowledge of the sport,
respect for your own competence, adequate preparation, and good physical condition.
The success attained should be measured in terms of achievement of personal
performance goals, not achievement goals such as winning.
Where you are underconfident, you will commonly suffer from fear of failure
(which will prevent you from taking risks effectively), self-doubt, lack of concentration,
and negative thinking. Often you may find yourself blaming yourself for faults that lie elsewhere.
These will damage your flow and disrupt your enjoyment of sport.
Here you should use suggestion, visualisation, and effective goal-setting
to improve your self-confidence and self-image.
Overconfidence is dangerous - it can lead you into situations which you do not have
the ability to get out of. It can set you up for serious failure that can devastate
the self-confidence you should have.
Overconfidence is confidence that is not based on ability: it may be a result of misleading
or pushy parents or coaches trying to help you without understanding your abilities,
may be caused by vanity or ego, or may be caused by positive thinking or imagery which is
not backed up by ability.
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How Imagery, Positive Thinking, and Suggestion Help Self-Confidence
Imagery is useful in building self-confidence, but only if properly applied.
Imagery should be used to imagine achievement of a goal that is being worked
towards in order to help you to believe that that goal is attainable.
It should only be used, however, where you are rationally aware that you have
the raw ability to achieve a goal if you stretch yourself, but if psychological factors
such as lack of emotional self-confidence are interfering with your ability to achieve.
For many years psychologists have advocated use of imagery, positive thinking,
and suggestion without stressing that it should be based on a rational assessment
of abilities. This can easily lead to over-confidence and serious failure.
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lol at the love fest and sports psychlogist Ox.
Maybe the club needs the pop psychologist Doctor Phil to come in and counsel the players.
Doctor Phil sits Spud and Zantuck together, facing each other and asks them to name 5 things they like about the other.
Then Phil makes a point in telling spud to be more positive and to drop the "nah" from his "yeah-nah's"
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LMAO@Dr Phil- antrofist
'And you can stop that crying and tantrum throwing Fiona and Pettifer,it really IS your fault!!
"Ty stop playing with that gun!! You could really hurt Danny with it."
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Yeah TS, I guess I'm just sick of seeing our so called stars bend over and take it like its a natural occurence. My tolerance is pretty low at the moment. I find it hard to store faith in certain individuals when I see what they produce on some occasions. Hopefully players like Ottens can be rehabilitated with the right support. I find it a bit of a cop out though to let him off the hook and lay into others. Surely he must take responsibility for his performances.
My tolerance levels aren’t any better JohnF. But as I said previously, because Otto is not an isolated case then I’m prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I’d make exceptions for a few others too, but I think players who continually make bad decisions, under pressure, or no pressure, are a liability. I don’t know if Otto falls into that category. His major fault is his lack of consistency and not that he’s a bad player. Maybe you see it differently, but I believe you can work with that.
And if we had to let go every player that didn’t perform to expectations, we wouldn’t have much of a list at the end of each season. So something has to give and I reckon we need to change the way we develop players or just go through life bagging them and having our top picks become just another wasted selection.
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LMAOO at the hard task masters JohnF and myself standing around at richmond training with whip in hand.
No taking it easy on anyone either, or you’ll both be out of a job quick smart. ;D ;D
Good point regarding going against the trend for any amount of time Spirit. Rodan is a perfect example. In his first year or so he was so enthusiastic, energetic, and vocally supportive on the ground. Now he's joined the Gaspars and the Kellaways in dropping the head and slouching the shoulders while slowly jogging back to position for a ball up after the opposition has kicked their 5th consecutive goal. I've also noticed this with Newman and Coughlan lately.
You just hope they don’t all fall into the same trap that plenty of others have before them. But we never seem to wake up to any of it and invariably they all go into that “zombie” mode that you so aptly described HH.
I have to admit to being a bit uneasy about whether Cogs will take the next step or not. And to be perfectly honest, I don’t believe our Club currently has the ability to progress his career. He has been helped by Campbell and Johnson and Brown will be good for him too, but after that he’ll have to rely on his ability to learn from his opponents. Because I don’t think he has the people around him that can help him to improve to the level he can go to.
No disrespect intended, but if we had the likes of a Voss or Hird at our Club for Cogs to learn from, his development would be fast-tracked, without doubt. The other minus is that we just don’t seem to have the coaching nous to counter that. Because either good coaching or good role models could help take him to another level. A combination of both would be even better. As it stands though, he is almost at the point where he could stagnate. Hope I’m proven wrong on that one.
It's time to freshen up the place, as it has a vey stale taste to it. PLayers are going through the motions and they are all in zombie mode. We need change !! A new coach and a new coaching panel who will wake some of these guys up and develop and nurture those who need it. Also a new leadership group is required predominately made up of Coughlan, Johnson, Brown, Newman, Krakour, and possibly Ottens.
Agree there Harry H. We’ve been told in the past that we were going to re-invent ourselves, but all it amounted to was a lot of hot air.
If we knew what we were doing, what you suggest for the leadership group would have already happened.
Some say that players shouldn’t be given leadership responsibility too early on in their careers, but I think it can fast-track some players and that they can benefit from the added responsibility. It may not suit everyone, but with support on and off the field it needn’t be the burden that some think it could turn out to be.
We just hold players back and that, to me, indicates that we don’t know how to develop them. They must know something we don’t know, because I can’t work out why Cogs isn’t in the leadership group already. Giving the younger players a leadership role is one way of changing things and you just know that the current group doesn’t have the ability to make any difference. (Not necessarily all their fault, they’ve just been at RFC too long).
Instead, it just perpetuates all the old and bad habits that you’ve described in gory detail HH. On the other hand, there are massive benefits to be gained from the spirit, enthusiasm and confidence the younger players show. They don’t have the baggage that their more experienced teammates have and they play the game as though they enjoy what they are doing. May not sound like much, but it makes a difference in my book. Obviously they still need guidance, etc. and it’s not like they’re on their own. Although I tend to wonder about that sometimes.
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Ottens, what was I thinking?
19 June 2004
Mike Sheahan
Herald Sun
AT the risk of pushing Richmond supporters to an even deeper level of depression, it is only 24 months since they were at the door to Dreamland.
Richmond opened the 2002 season with a six-goal win over Collingwood in front of 65,350 people, with the Big Os, Richo and Otto, on song.
Richo booted six; Ottens dominated in the ruck, took nine marks and kicked four.
Given Richmond's top-four finish in 2001 and Ottens' selection in the All-Australian team, the Tigers seemed ready to take on the world.
Since then, Richmond has won 17 of 55 games, and, if Ottens hasn't regressed, he has failed to keep up.
What is beyond debate is that my decision to rank him at No. 15 in the pre-season top 50 hasn't been justified. In fact, what it has been is embarrassing.
There are times when predictions simply prove to be wrong. Then there are times when calls that look decidedly wrong might only be premature. Peter Everitt, for example, was listed at No. 4 in my top 50 players before the 1999 season.
Despite his St Kilda best-and-fairest win in 2001, you could argue he still is maturing. He will win a best-and-fairest at a second club this year and he is better than he has ever been.
One thing that hasn't changed in football is that big blokes take more time. But how much time is enough?
Ottens, 24, is in his seventh season and has played 123 games. Is that long enough? It should be, yet Everitt is at his best at 30, Melbourne's Jeff White is in career-best form in his 10th season, West Coast's Michael Gardiner, the best ruckman in the competition last year, started in 1997.
Perhaps Ottens simply is taking time to mature. Or, does he lack the urgency to ever reach what has been seen to be his destiny?
Ottens was the player with the red bullet in my 2004 top 50, perched at No. 15. Kevin Bartlett recently criticised the selection, terming it "extraordinary". Yet the same Bartlett said at the same time Ottens had the size and talent to be "the best player in the game".
I was happy to keep him safe at 15.
John Barnes, the most recent No. 1 ruckman in a Victorian premiership team (Essendon, 2000), believes Ottens isn't enjoying his football. He likened him to Melbourne's White, who laboured through 2003 before blossoming this year.
Yet Ottens looks fit enough. It's his body language, his urgency that's at issue. It's as if he takes tranquillisers before a game.
In technical terms, there is nothing he can't do: he is an expert ruckman, a reliable mark, a super kick for his size, and he is brave and durable.
Kevin Sheedy hints we are impatient with big blokes. He cites White and throws the names of Josh Fraser and David Hille into the mix.
Fraser is in his fifth season, Hille his fourth. Fraser has become a good player at 22. Hille, 23, has shown plenty, but is struggling this year.
There is a school of thought Ottens may need to follow Everitt's path and start afresh elsewhere.
Two clubs in his home state of South Australia would be more than happy to test that theory.
The Crows, in particular. Matty Clarke is nearing the end, and the former Glenelg boy would be welcomed with open arms.
Adelaide is second-last and might have a couple of aces in the poker game played between all clubs before the national draft.
On the other hand, can you imagine the new Richmond coach – and there will be one – willingly parting with Ottens?
Hardly. He may not be the 15th most valuable player in the competition after 12 rounds this year, but he has the natural ability to match his huge frame.
Only Everitt has registered more hitouts this year, and White is a Brownlow Medal fancy; Everitt and White finally are the best ruckmen in the competition.
Ottens has time on his side, but the clock is ticking louder than ever.
What John Barnes says
"HE'S either got an injury or he should be playing in the seconds; simple as that.
"I love the bloke; it just drives me nuts the way he's playing. I reckon he's huge. It's criminal to see a bloke with the frame, the size, the talent he's got playing like he is.
"He should be in the top three (ruckmen) in the competition.
"I'm starting to lose faith in him.
"He's obviously not enjoying his footy. I'm tipping he's hating going to training, being at the club, going to the gym. He'd be saying things like `I'm not getting a kick, what am I doing here?'
"Brad Ottens should ring up Jeff White and ask him how he turned it round. If Jeff White can turn it round like he has, so can Brad Ottens.
"I hope he does."
What Kevin Bartlett says
"BRAD Ottens has been a big disappointment to the Tigers. A couple of years ago, I thought he was an extraordinary talent; such a beautiful kick.
"I think he's got to get a bit more urgency into his game; I think we've got to see him break into a sweat.
"I think he's got to take more marks, I think he's got to win more of the ball; I don't think it's enough just to do the ruckwork as a designated ruckman, and I really do think he's got to sit down and be tougher on himself, and go out with the thought that he should be the best player on the ground every time he steps on to the ground.
"I think Mike Sheahan might have put him in his top five or 10 players at the start of the year, which was an extraordinary thing by Mike to do.
"He may have been reasonable this season, but the Tigers need more than reasonable players, and when you've got the talent of Brad Ottens, he has to do better.
"He's got to get a bit more urgency into his game, a bit more excitement, and I think he's got to lift his own standards . . .
"He's got the talent, he's got the size, it just depends on whether he has got the will to make himself the best player in the game and, so far, he hasn't."
(Bartlett was speaking on SEN)
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,%255E20123,00.html
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While taking some personal responsibility to improve his game wouldn't go astray it's not new news that we have a number of talented players that lack urgency - Ottens, Bowden, etc. The right environment around them wouldn't have let this happen.
Trading these guys away won't solve this problem. It all comes back to changing the culture at the Club. Getting the right people and in particular the right coach and structure to Richmond and around these players.
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Another great performance by Ottens tapping the ball to Carlton players time and again in the first half.
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After spending an extra $800,000 on the football department this year our specialist ruck coach is....ummm.....oh that's right we don't have one ::)
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What is beyond debate is that my decision to rank him at No. 15 in the pre-season top 50 hasn't been justified. In fact, what it has been is embarrassing.
Gee Mike - I thought you'd be used to it by now - embarrassing writings that is ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Basically you wouldn't want Mike Sheehan to have your back in any situatuion.
The guy is the biggest mummys' boy and it shows in his writing.
No spine.
Fancy coming out and saying he was embarrassed about the fact he was wrong about Ottens at the start of the year - Tossa!
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… Ottens looks fit enough. It's his body language, his urgency that's at issue. It's as if he takes tranquillisers before a game.
In technical terms, there is nothing he can't do: he is an expert ruckman, a reliable mark, a super kick for his size, and he is brave and durable.
Otto has always looked and played that way. Nothing has changed since he started at RFC to now and that’s the problem.
And that’s also when you know that other forces are at play, because a player with that amount of ability should be capable of more and better, you would think.
Obviously it’s up to the player to have the commitment, but Otto doesn’t seem to lack in that area. He just can’t seem to put it all together and no one seems capable of helping him out in that department.
Last week, Nigel Smart was asked to comment about the coaches he had played under. He cited Malcolm Blight as a coach who could teach players.
And that’s our big problem, because we have a coach who is learning and it’s not helping our players. Not his fault, but it hasn’t helped the players or the coach himself.
If we had been honest enough or realised this soon enough and put in place a coaching structure that could cope with this situation then things may not have become as bad as they have.
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Mark Bickley said on the Footy Show that the Crows will be targetting Bradley next year - have lots of cash to throw around.
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Good, they can have him, at least get some players with a bit of grunt and heart, something that Brad HASNT got.
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Mark Bickley said on the Footy Show that the Crows will be targetting Bradley next year - have lots of cash to throw around.
I heard that too froars. He said that now Carey and Smart have retired and with Clark soon to join them they will have $$$ to play with at the end of the year.
Well after what happened with Gas and Holland if money is all that it will take for Otto to leave then we should let him go into the PSD and onto Hawthorn and stuff the Crows. In fairness to Otto he has said he wants to stay. Hopefully the new coach will get the best out of him and put some fire into his belly plus have the brains to bring in a specialist ruck coach.