Author Topic: Brad Nottens  (Read 22986 times)

Offline JohnF

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2004, 03:07:38 PM »
That's a real good post TS,

And I agree that there is more wrong with our club than just the players and the coaches. That's for sure.

However, my opinion is that players who need motivation by others, players who need too much support, players who need lots of confidence before they start playing well, are players that are not necessary to a team. It seems they lack some things that are very important, mental strength, and a strong will.

Mental fragility means the players fortunes will fluctuate with how their environment is progressing. So long as things are going good they will be fine. But when the hard times come, and inevitably they will come, if the players start to look around and wait for others to do something, then the team's going to be in trouble. A player with mental strength keeps it together, and doesn't go to water if things aren't going their way. Strong willed individuals understand that the ultimate source of help lies from within, not from outside and they automatically move to counteract the pressure the environment has placed them under.

It seems funny that the two qualities I mention, mental strength and a strong will, are something that I believe recruiters do not look at whatsoever, and its something that can't really be tested until the player is subjected to the harshest conditions. No wonder so many draftees fall by the way-side. Recruiters are much more interested with testing how high someone can jump, how long they can kick, how fast they can run, how far they can run and how good their skills are. 

Now, no doubt it is also the job of coaches and the clubs with the right support networks and structures to get the most out of their players, and for players like Ottens they have failed.  But ultimately the buck stops with every individual player. Some things can never be taught. Support and nursing only really work when the individual is mentally strong and has a strong will to begin with. If they don't they will just feed off the environment they find themselves in, which at some point, will become difficult. That's why Ottens, although he is a good player, shouldn't be looked at as being essential to the team.

One thing the players can do nothing about, and for which it is the job of the coach, is to institute a game plan that works with the personnel you have at your disposal. Frawley hasn't done this and to some extent, this is why Ottens isn't playing that well. This, above anything else, should be the reason why Spud is given the ars at the end of the year (his failture to institute a game plan which suits the players he has to work with and which can consistently give us opportunities to win games).

There are lots of other things wrong with the club, starting with its culture. We are guided by emotion rather than reason most of the time, we are very unprofessional (esp. with how they players train), we have become cynical and disenchanted with a long period of failure etc. But maybe I'll have a go talking about them later on. 
 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 03:10:59 PM by JohnF »

Offline Harry

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2004, 03:08:34 PM »
Yep - good call spirit.

As the saying goes - success breeds success - its amazing how players develop in a successful team.  Have a look at young Richard Hadlee at the Lions for example.  He is a run of the mill youngster coming through the ranks - nothing special in my books.  But he is playing with champions and soon he will become a champion himself.  If he were at the tigers he would soon become another dud.  It would be amazing to see what type of players the likes of Ottens, Tivendale, Newman, Krakour (all players that I consider naturally talented) would have become if they started their carreers at Brisbane.  They would be dominating.

It comes back to my cancer theory - where bad football habits, tendencies and attitude are passed down from player to player. 

When I say habits and tendencies, I refer to a players habits and instincts in the heat of battle.  Examples are -

-  Whether the player kicks blindly under pressure, or whether he has confidence to hold the ball, evade a tackle knowing that there will be a player running to support. 

- Whether the player is prepared to leave his man and run upfield to support teamates or whether he'd prefer to sit back, take the safe option, and ensure his man doesn't get a kick if the ball rebounds back. 

- Whether a players first instinct when getting the ball is to accelerate forward and run at the opposition and really put them on the back foot, or whether it is to jog backwards, sideways and chip to a teamate lateral to him.

- Whether the player instinctively runs past a player in possession, to demand a handball to quickly move play along, or whether he'd rather stand behind or lateral to the play, hands on hips and watch his teamate kick long because the player is afraid of stuffing up if they initiated a play on situation.

- Whether the player reacts under pressure by settling down and trying to go down the middle to really put pressure on the opposition, or he'd rather go up the wings as the impact of a turnover and the risk is lower.

- Whether a player is prepared to put in that extra yard to apply a shepherd or whether he takes the foot off the pedal to rest up a bit thinking(hoping) that the player chasing his teamate might not catch him (this overlaps into attitude also).

Attitude relates to just that - the attitude of the players when they are on the ground - when they are in front and behind on the scoreboard.  Attitudes are easily passed down from player to player.  If the leadership group drop their heads, don't encourage, don't chase, fight and bleed for the cause then this attitude so easily becomes the attitude of the younger guys.

IMO the learning curve for a footballer in terms of playing habits and attitudes is the steepest between the ages of 17-23.  Skills are learnt in the junior days - if a player can't kick before he's 17, then there's little hope that he will learn the mechanics after that.  But attitude and playing habits are learnt after that, and these aspects determine who will be the next champion and who will not.

When you have players like Campbell, Gaspar, Kellaway, Chaffey, Bowden, Ottens, Richo etc setting the example it is just natural that the kids coming through pick up their habits and attitude.  The same way these guys inhereted these traits from players like Gale, Knights, Kellaway, Turner, Daffy, Rogers etc before them.

IMO a strong coach is required to eradicate this cancer -  one who is prepared to punish, drag and demote any player, regardles of seniority, for any bad habit and bad attitude displayed on the ground.  In order it doesn't continue to spread.

Along with this some, if not most, senior players should be moved on......like amputating a limb to stop the cancer spreading. 

An influx of youth and enthusiasm is then needed while the strong and competent coach starts teaching them good habits and good attitudes.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 03:10:23 PM by Harry Hedgehog »
Does anyone have half an idea on anything?

Offline JohnF

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2004, 03:19:36 PM »
lmfaooooo, Harry, you make some great points. But if success breeds success, then we should still be successful. We had great success 20-30 years ago. How come the subsequent players didn't follow suit and develop the attitudes of the tigers of old? Maybe we started going wrong with the coaches we employed. We have had some bad coaches in the time where we have lacked success, but we have also had some coaches that could coach. E.g. Premiership coach Robert Walls (hate the prick, but he did win a flag as a coach). And we have still failed to have (much) success with him.

« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 03:36:44 PM by JohnF »

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2004, 03:41:33 PM »
Great posts TS and  Harry.

Problem was John that towards the end of the period of success we lost most of our top seniors players in one go either through retiring or insanely traded  >:(. We lost Bourke, Bartlett, Cloke, Wood, Raines, etc in the space of only a few years and given we had the worse VFL Zone of all the clubs we had no quality juniors coming through and disasterously led to us to recruiting dud replacements at high $$$. Crazy stuff! Even TJ in that Fighting Fury DVD admitted the Club had become a former shadow of itself in the brief time b/w his two coaching stints. All that culture of success sadly dissipated during the 80's within a couple of years. 
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Offline JohnF

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2004, 04:00:58 PM »
Losing Bourke and Bartlett can't be used as an excuse. They retired and should have passed on their succesful ways to the youth by the time they did. Possibly you are right about Cloke, Raines etc leaving though.

So how do we recapture the success we had? We've tried coach after coach. Cleaning the slate with the all the senior players and starting from scratch with a new coach just can't be done. So will the mediocre traits of the tiger elders of today be passed down to the tigers of tomorrow? Will we be stuck in a void of mediocrity forever more?

I beleive it comes down to the individuals and what they have burning inside them more than what others can teach them through supporting and nursing them along. Finding mentally strong and strong willed individuals is the key to a Tiger revival. The problem with this though, is that you can never really be sure that a player will have these qualities when you recruit them. In a way we jsut have to hope the luck falls our way and we unearth some players like this. Coughlan is definitely such a player. He is a player that is essential.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 04:04:48 PM by JohnF »

Offline Tiger Spirit

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2004, 05:21:57 PM »
However, my opinion is that players who need motivation by others, players who need too much support, players who need lots of confidence before they start playing well, are players that are not necessary to a team. It seems they lack some things that are very important, mental strength, and a strong will.



Now, no doubt it is also the job of coaches and the clubs with the right support networks and structures to get the most out of their players, and for players like Ottens they have failed.  But ultimately the buck stops with every individual player. Some things can never be taught. Support and nursing only really work when the individual is mentally strong and has a strong will to begin with. If they don't they will just feed off the environment they find themselves in, which at some point, will become difficult. That's why Ottens, although he is a good player, shouldn't be looked at as being essential to the team.

JohnF and Harry H., why aren’t you two hard task masters down at our Club?

Great response JohnF.

Motivation determines a lot of things for players.  And I tend to think we have the most unmotivated group going around, at least that’s how things appear from the results we achieve.  Can we solely blame players for all of that and is that the truth anyway?  I tend to think not.  But more a case of what happens to players at our footy Club, because it’s not just an isolated case.

I don’t know that we can expect players to go out there and play to the best of their ability from day one, regardless of circumstances.  Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that.  It’s different for all players and that’s where it’s up to coaches to help get the best out of them.  They all possess an amount of ability, but the awareness, knowledge and experience they develop after that determines how much they do with that ability.  In effect, players learn what they need to know as their career develops.  As Harry H. alluded to, having good role models makes a difference in the way players learn and it’s in our interests to start all over again with our leadership group.

Good coaches come into their own because of the guidance, support and encouragement they offer players that makes a difference and helps build their confidence and self-belief.  Without any of that, players may seem to be beyond help.  And I can understand why some would think that some of our players just aren’t up to it.  It’s true that you get to find out a lot about players when the going gets tough, but there again, I don’t think it’s all that clear cut for all players and I can’t see Otto as a lost cause just yet.

Maybe where we differ most is at what point you give up on someone.  Maybe I’m just one of those people who cling on to false hope and have just become used to the never-ending frustration that I just don’t know when to let go.  But I prefer to believe that everyone has an amount of inner strength.  And just because we haven’t seen it yet, doesn’t mean it’s not there.  It is doggone it. ;) ;D
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Offline Tiger Spirit

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2004, 05:28:28 PM »
Attitude relates to just that - the attitude of the players when they are on the ground - when they are in front and behind on the scoreboard.  Attitudes are easily passed down from player to player.  If the leadership group drop their heads, don't encourage, don't chase, fight and bleed for the cause then this attitude so easily becomes the attitude of the younger guys.


An influx of youth and enthusiasm is then needed while the strong and competent coach starts teaching them good habits and good attitudes.

What can I say about your post Harry H.  Great stuff.

It takes a rare individual to go against the trend Harry H., for any amount of time.  Is it any wonder we cling on to any player who shows that capacity.  It’s happened before that we have heralded players as the second coming, because they have stood out from their teammates, because of their attitude, only to see that promise short-lived when they invariably blend in with their environment.

I guess the reason why I haven’t lost hope altogether is because I believe our situation is retrievable, if we can get our act into gear and also because we seem to have recruited some young players who have some spirit about them and the attitude to match.

Whether that amounts to anything in the long-term who knows, but it’s something to cling on to at least.
Everything that is done in this world is done by hope.  --Martin Luther

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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2004, 05:31:46 PM »
Cleaning the slate of a number of senior players has been done before. Malcolm Blight walked into the Crows and on his first day told their Captain (McDermott), VC (Tony McGuiness) and Andrew Jarman that it was time to go. From what someone on the inside a couple of years earlier told me these guys thought the club revolved around them and immuned from the chop. Blight had other ideas  ;D. I'm not saying that's a guaranteed step towards success but come to think of it injuries have nobbled Cambo and rumours circle that Gas may get traded so it's not a fanciful idea  ;).

The only way I can see us getting out of this merry-go-round given the restrictions of draft system is to clean-out the list over the next couple of years and rebuild. Freo and the Saints although they don't have a premiership yet appear to show the way in that regard. The draft always benefitted those Clubs (like Essendon) who had a strong quality core group as they could continually trade away then top up. We don't have that luxury. Never had in fact. We need a whole new coaching staff with a respected (and maybe feared) head coach who always demands high standards from every player and movitates them to give their best. Promote those who aren't part of "been around 5-10 years group" to the main leadership roles (generational change) and draft for youth.

All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline Puntroadroar

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2004, 05:52:28 PM »
If success breeds success, which I agree to some point

then why have St Kilda only lost 1 game this year when a few seasons ago they were a rabble?
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Offline JohnF

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2004, 05:52:29 PM »
Cleaning the slate of a number of senior players has been done before. Malcolm Blight walked into the Crows and on his first day told their Captain (McDermott), VC (Tony McGuiness) and Andrew Jarman that it was time to go. From what someone on the inside a couple of years earlier told me these guys thought the club revolved around them and immuned from the chop. Blight had other ideas  ;D. I'm not saying that's a guaranteed step towards success but come to think of it injuries have nobbled Cambo and rumours circle that Gas may get traded so it's not a fanciful idea  ;).

The only way I can see us getting out of this merry-go-round given the restrictions of draft system is to clean-out the list over the next couple of years and rebuild. Freo and the Saints although they don't have a premiership yet appear to show the way in that regard. The draft always benefitted those Clubs (like Essendon) who had a strong quality core group as they could continually trade away then top up. We don't have that luxury. Never had in fact. We need a whole new coaching staff with a respected (and maybe feared) head coach who always demands high standards from every player and movitates them to give their best. Promote those who aren't part of "been around 5-10 years group" to the main leadership roles (generational change) and draft for youth.

This seems to be the likely plan of attack and it will probably be instituted over the next couple of years. Let's hope it works. Hopefully it will with a bit of help from good drafting. With the amount of inexperienced players at the club already though, it might prove difficult to get off the ground. I suppose we will always have the comfort of the draft to help us out though...


Offline JohnF

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2004, 06:00:05 PM »

JohnF and Harry H., why aren’t you two hard task masters down at our Club?

Motivation determines a lot of things for players.  And I tend to think we have the most unmotivated group going around, at least that’s how things appear from the results we achieve.  Can we solely blame players for all of that and is that the truth anyway?  I tend to think not.  But more a case of what happens to players at our footy Club, because it’s not just an isolated case.

I don’t know that we can expect players to go out there and play to the best of their ability from day one, regardless of circumstances.  Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that.  It’s different for all players and that’s where it’s up to coaches to help get the best out of them.  They all possess an amount of ability, but the awareness, knowledge and experience they develop after that determines how much they do with that ability.  In effect, players learn what they need to know as their career develops.  As Harry H. alluded to, having good role models makes a difference in the way players learn and it’s in our interests to start all over again with our leadership group.

Good coaches come into their own because of the guidance, support and encouragement they offer players that makes a difference and helps build their confidence and self-belief.  Without any of that, players may seem to be beyond help.  And I can understand why some would think that some of our players just aren’t up to it.  It’s true that you get to find out a lot about players when the going gets tough, but there again, I don’t think it’s all that clear cut for all players and I can’t see Otto as a lost cause just yet.

Maybe where we differ most is at what point you give up on someone.  Maybe I’m just one of those people who cling on to false hope and have just become used to the never-ending frustration that I just don’t know when to let go.  But I prefer to believe that everyone has an amount of inner strength.  And just because we haven’t seen it yet, doesn’t mean it’s not there.  It is doggone it. ;) ;D

Yeah TS, I guess I'm just sick of seeing our so called stars bend over and take it like its a natural occurence. My tolerance is pretty low at the moment. I find it hard to store faith in certain individuals when I see what they produce on some occasions. Hopefully players like Ottens can be rehabilitated with the right support. I find it a bit of a cop out though to let him off the hook and lay into others. Surely he must take responsibility for his performances.

Offline Puntroadroar

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2004, 06:04:30 PM »
I will continue to knock Nottens for who he really is until the day he decides to throw a nice humble pie my way.

until that day i will only continue my 24 year old dream
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Offline JohnF

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2004, 06:06:26 PM »
If success breeds success, which I agree to some point

then why have St Kilda only lost 1 game this year when a few seasons ago they were a rabble?

yeah good point PRR,

I also find it hard to believe that Grant Thomas is a special coach who is drawing all the best features out of the players down there. I suppose the simple answer is that they have copped their rodgerings and came out clean with some good pick ups in the draft.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 06:09:13 PM by JohnF »

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2004, 06:09:19 PM »
Thought provoking posting from everyone.
There's nothing really too add.

BTW,LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO

Offline Harry

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Re: Brad Nottens
« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2004, 06:14:12 PM »
I think we're onto something here boys - let's keep it going.

LMAOO at the hard task masters JohnF and myself standing around at richmond training with whip in hand.

Good point regarding going against the trend for any amount of time Spirit.  Rodan is a perfect example.  In his first year or so he was so enthusiastic, energetic, and vocally supportive on the ground.  Now he's joined the Gaspars and the Kellaways in dropping the head and slouching the shoulders while slowly jogging back to position for a ball up after the opposition has kicked their 5th consecutive goal.  I've also noticed this with Newman and Coughlan lately.

Gaspar might be an AA full back but his on field attitude and lethargic manner is definately adversely affecting players around him.  Watching him on the field he definately appears as if he doesn't give a stuff.  I watched him closely last week when the roos had a run-on (heck, there was nothing else to do).  After we conceded a goal he would ALWAYs drop his head, keep to himself and just walk around looking lost.  No words of encouragements, no patting on the back.....nothing.  Even when we had the ball, he was doing his upmost to get into a position where he wouldn't be involved in the play.  From a kick out he would make sure that he was near an opponent so the pass wouldn't come his way.  It was quite astonishing considering he is in our leadership group, probably the highest paid player, and vice captain.

Gaspar, Kellaway, Chaffey, Campbell, and Bowden are the prime senior players that should be moved on.  Trade what you can get and make Campbell retire.  There is no more room for sentiment as these guys are holding the club back.

It's time to freshen up the place, as it has a vey stale taste to it.  PLayers are going through the motions and they are all in zombie mode.  We need change !!  A new coach and a new coaching panel who will wake some of these guys up and develop and nurture those who need it.  Also a new leadership group is required predominately made up of Coughlan, Johnson, Brown, Newman, Krakour, and possibly Ottens.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2004, 09:36:12 PM by Harry Hedgehog »
Does anyone have half an idea on anything?