One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Ramps on May 09, 2009, 06:52:54 PM
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Any reason we should keep him on and for that matter any reason we should keep on the other recruiters?
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Any reason we should keep him on and for that matter any reason we should keep on the other recruiters?
NO
complete clean out is required heading into another rebuilding 3 years.
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i could do a better job for half the cost :thumbsup
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Which kids should we aim for Jack in the upcoming November draft?
Anyway onto Ramps question - I think you also have to look at Craig Cameron as he is our football manager with the job of overseeing the footy dept from the coaches to the recruiters and define a long-term course as far as list management. I mean I hope in this review they are handing down soon there's an answer as to why despite changing the head of our football dept. we as a club still made the same old dumb short cut to trade away picks for recycled players who couldn't get in their original club's 22 and despite us being 1-6 can't get in our 22 either :scream and why we again drafted so few kids in the National draft even though it's the only way to access the best and most talented kids in the country and bring them to the club. 5 kids in the past two National drafts means we effectively missed a draft when other rebuilding clubs are taking 5-6 kids in each draft.
You've also got to ask what are our current resources as far as scouts on the ground providing reports on TAC Cup, WAFL and SANFL games etc and how many do they need to be to be up with the well resourced clubs. It's been mentioned in the past Hawthorn would have 4 spotters at a TAC Cup game providing individual reports compared to our one.
As for Francis Jackson - his record so far is in terms of spotting youth (non-AFL, VFL and trades):
2006 - Riewoldt, Edwards, Connors, Collins, Peterson, Clingan (r)
2007 - Cotchin, Rance, Putt, Gourdis (psd)
2008 - Vickery, Post, Browne (r), Gilligan (r)
I'm presuming the others were made by the footy manager at the time (Miller or Cameron) or Wallace:
2006 - Polak, Kingsley (psd), King (r)
2007 - McMahon, Morton, Collard (r), Silvester (r), Cartledge (r)
2008 - Thomson, Hislop, Cousins (psd), Nahas (r)
I didn't include 2005 as FJ was only working part-time at the time helping out Miller.
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The smokie for me for us in the 2nd round is Ben Griffiths, hopefully he lasts that long. Depending on what pick we get in R1 it should be Butcher or Scully, beyond that its too hard to tell at the moment
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If we bottom out this year, I believe we will find ourselves in the same rebuilding situation as Hawthorn did in 2004. They had bottomed out years before and recruited midfielders such as Hodge and Mitchell (r) but in the 2004 draft they were looking for quality forwards/talls and due to their good recruiters (or our poor ones) they secured two.
This draft we need quality forwards, plain and simple. It is our biggest deficiency and is what we desperately require to round off the list. I still think our midfield will be a force in the future - (Lids, Cotch, Foley, White, Bling, Collins and Cogs) and our backline is still young - (McGuane, Rance, Moore, Thursfield, Raines, Newman). Our rucks are improving and may prove to be one of our strongest components to our team in the future - (Gus, Vickery and Browne) but our forwardline has no tall forwards of any worth - (Morton, Nahas, Riewoldt, .........????) We have no one who even looks like they will step up as a tall forward.
Our recruiters have recruited the right type of players over the past few years but the quality and development of these players is the big question.
Perhaps the recruiters aren't the problem but the development coaches are..... ???
Stripes
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i could do a better job for half the cost :thumbsup
hahaha
you could pay the club what FJ earns and you still wouldnt get the job :ROTFL
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If we bottom out this year, I believe we will find ourselves in the same rebuilding situation as Hawthorn did in 2004. They had bottomed out years before and recruited midfielders such as Hodge and Mitchell (r) but in the 2004 draft they were looking for quality forwards/talls and due to their good recruiters (or our poor ones) they secured two.
This draft we need quality forwards, plain and simple. It is our biggest deficiency and is what we desperately require to round off the list. I still think our midfield will be a force in the future - (Lids, Cotch, Foley, White, Bling, Collins and Cogs) and our backline is still young - (McGuane, Rance, Moore, Thursfield, Raines, Newman). Our rucks are improving and may prove to be one of our strongest components to our team in the future - (Gus, Vickery and Browne) but our forwardline has no tall forwards of any worth - (Morton, Nahas, Riewoldt, .........????) We have no one who even looks like they will step up as a tall forward.
Our recruiters have recruited the right type of players over the past few years but the quality and development of these players is the big question.
Perhaps the recruiters aren't the problem but the development coaches are..... ???
Stripes
okay no worries
the recruiting of Mcmahon, Thompson and that idiot Hislop says so much about whats wrong with our footy club.
Development is a big issue but the buck stops with recruiting
We chose plugging holes through rejects at other clubs insetad of opting for youth. This was the biggets downfall of our club in the last 4 years.
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McMahon was a bad call by TW to give us more run and deliver off the half back. While he hasn't been the worst at the club I agree that he certainly didn't warrant the pick given up for him.
Hislop and Thomson were depth players who went high in previous drafts. The theory was/is that with the right amount of development and coaching they would come on and who knows this may well happen...but not with our current coaches it would seem.
In regards to our other drafting, the recruiters have aimed a filling holes and covering deficencies in the team which they have done but as I said in my last post, the debate is whether these players will develop into capable players. The average is that 30% won't but you can usually expect players taken in the first round would make it and this is where the recruiters (& Miller in particular) have failed with players like Meyer, JON and Patto if you are looking for quality.
Stripes
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You should only trade for players if you believe they will be part of your next premiership side. Clearly our trades were done to top-up instead to add only depth (at Coburg :P ) which is why they are always failed decisions. What's most concerning is we brought in Cameron to take list management and recruiting out of the coach's hands so the long-term health of our list was put before the short-term demands of the coach yet we still make the exact same dumb trading decisions :help. Wallace will be gone shortly but has Cameron got another 4 years?
I agree Stripes there are similarities between us now and Hawthorn in the last years under Schwab. It'd be nice if we could trade with the GC like Hawthorn did with North to get more top picks.
The smokie for me for us in the 2nd round is Ben Griffiths, hopefully he lasts that long. Depending on what pick we get in R1 it should be Butcher or Scully, beyond that its too hard to tell at the moment
Griffiths has been injured for the past month and will probably miss the start of the U18 champs so he could slip.
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I reckon we have taken a step forward under FJ...dont dismiss the impact of the coach on recruiting, he requests certain types that need to fill holes on the list EG McMahon and more recently Hislop and thomo
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Which kids should we aim for Jack in the upcoming November draft?
Anyway onto Ramps question - I think you also have to look at Craig Cameron as he is our football manager with the job of overseeing the footy dept from the coaches to the recruiters and define a long-term course as far as list management. I mean I hope in this review they are handing down soon there's an answer as to why despite changing the head of our football dept. we as a club still made the same old dumb short cut to trade away picks for recycled players who couldn't get in their original club's 22 and despite us being 1-6 can't get in our 22 either :scream and why we again drafted so few kids in the National draft even though it's the only way to access the best and most talented kids in the country and bring them to the club. 5 kids in the past two National drafts means we effectively missed a draft when other rebuilding clubs are taking 5-6 kids in each draft.
You've also got to ask what are our current resources as far as scouts on the ground providing reports on TAC Cup, WAFL and SANFL games etc and how many do they need to be to be up with the well resourced clubs. It's been mentioned in the past Hawthorn would have 4 spotters at a TAC Cup game providing individual reports compared to our one.
As for Francis Jackson - his record so far is in terms of spotting youth (non-AFL, VFL and trades):
2006 - Riewoldt, Edwards, Connors, Collins, Peterson, Clingan (r)
2007 - Cotchin, Rance, Putt, Gourdis (psd)
2008 - Vickery, Post, Browne (r), Gilligan (r)
I'm presuming the others were made by the footy manager at the time (Miller or Cameron) or Wallace:
2006 - Polak, Kingsley (psd), King (r)
2007 - McMahon, Morton, Collard (r), Silvester (r), Cartledge (r)
2008 - Thomson, Hislop, Cousins (psd), Nahas (r)
I didn't include 2005 as FJ was only working part-time at the time helping out Miller.
This post sums up this thread (the comments about Jack included).
MT - print it and put it under Craig Cameron's door.
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Which kids should we aim for Jack in the upcoming November draft?
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Well smarty , I dont know as I dont do the tapes for the RFC anymore.
Will tell you this.
I vetted all TAC tapes from 2004-2006 and one thing is for certain.
Would never ever have gone for JON or Patterson, Patterson was hopeless for Northern Knights.
I might also say this, its not as easy as going to a game and watching a player.
Before you go and watch someone, you watch the tapes and pick a player who has effective kicks and disposals, irelevant of the quantity.
Then if a player has in successive weeks a high percentage of effective disposals, he is tagged and a "' scout "" will go and watch him.
Once these players were in our system, Greg Miller and then Wallace would go and watch.
If you want the format that the players are graded on, I will send it to you.
For what its worth, I think that Plough disregarded the format and went on gut feeling on alot of selections
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Melbourne and Freo are now ahead of us because they (finally) cleared out all their dead wood and replaced it with lots of kids, not recycles. Get enough kids in, and you'll get some good ones. We at Richmond select so few kids that the chances of getting good ones is small compared to other sides.
Craig Cameron's career is on the line this off season, simple as that. Huge opportunity to do the right thing instead of short-term fixes to protect jobs.
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Would never ever have gone for JON or Patterson, Patterson was hopeless for Northern Knights.
He was B&F for the Northern Knights in 2004 and CHF in the TAC Team of the year, even captained the TAC side.
Not saying he was the right pick, however not many players from that draft after pick 7 are any good.
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Melbourne and Freo are now ahead of us because they (finally) cleared out all their dead wood and replaced it with lots of kids, not recycles. Get enough kids in, and you'll get some good ones. We at Richmond select so few kids that the chances of getting good ones is small compared to other sides.
Craig Cameron's career is on the line this off season, simple as that. Huge opportunity to do the right thing instead of short-term fixes to protect jobs.
would not agree that melbourne and freo are ahead of us now.
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The smokie for me for us in the 2nd round is Ben Griffiths, hopefully he lasts that long. Depending on what pick we get in R1 it should be Butcher or Scully, beyond that its too hard to tell at the moment
i've been trying to keep an eye on ben griffiths as well. unfortunately he's been a bit injury prone and hasn't been able to get on the field.
maybe that will enable us to pick him up on the cheap.
certainly we need to finish with less than 5 wins, preferably with the wooden spoon, and get our 3 picks in the top 20.
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The smokie for me for us in the 2nd round is Ben Griffiths, hopefully he lasts that long. Depending on what pick we get in R1 it should be Butcher or Scully, beyond that its too hard to tell at the moment
i've been trying to keep an eye on ben griffiths as well. unfortunately he's been a bit injury prone and hasn't been able to get on the field.
maybe that will enable us to pick him up on the cheap.
certainly we need to finish with less than 5 wins, preferably with the wooden spoon, and get our 3 picks in the top 20.
3 picks?????
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Would never ever have gone for JON or Patterson, Patterson was hopeless for Northern Knights.
He was B&F for the Northern Knights in 2004 and CHF in the TAC Team of the year, even captained the TAC side.
Not saying he was the right pick, however not many players from that draft after pick 7 are any good.
he averaged 7 possesions a game in the 4 games he was tagged, give me a break will you. Wouldnt give rats arse what B & F he won :banghead :banghead
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would not agree that melbourne and freo are ahead of us now.
Your opinion, but I'd take either list over ours right now.
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Cant agree that Patto is a bad choice, he consistently performs at good (not great) level week in week out and carried the ruck against larger bigger and older blokes when he was developing. He had about 20 possies against Sydney and we dropped him in a bad move as we no one to bring the ball to ground in the hole or to do the second lead up the ground forward. I don't think anyone would accuse him of not competing and he was recruited as a CHF, why not give him a go there.
Now my favorite subject, why do we let coaches have a say in recruitment at all, it would seem they choose for the short term gain of themselves instead of the long term gain of the club.
No more national draft pick for rejects from other clubs, they never work out. If you want to pick up players from other clubs wait for the pre season draft - note Port Adelaide.
If we finish down the bottom and have lots of room in the salary cap, lets be smart this time about how we go about it. (Miller tried too hard and stuffed it last time )
Trade off players for the right price if possible for draft picks - this one get harder and harder - Please take note Richmond recruiters, clubs don't let good players go as a rule unless they have baggage.
I believe we are going to have allot of player turned over this year - but remember there are only so many that can be moved on!!!!
Hopefully our recruiters do their due diligence and are not too ego driven to ask the opinion of other connected people who have a reasonable knowledge. I would sure as hell be asking the two Kevin's allot of questions Sheean and Sheedy. The time to be putting in the research would have well and truly started by now in earnest as if we don't get it right this time year heaven help us. Ultimately they will make the decision but pray they know exactly what we are getting.
Through all this Richmond needs to show strong leadership and not be bullied by the media or hysteria and needs to think with their heads instead of their hearts or we are still going to gashing our teeth about the same crap in the next 5 year plan.
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Melbourne and Freo are now ahead of us because they (finally) cleared out all their dead wood and replaced it with lots of kids,
I dont buy that, I believe we have 2/3 of a winning structure with a massive viod in the front half...the reality is two players could fix that...our defence , midfield and rucks are stocked with young promising players...Melbourne has holes all over the place and their stocks are for the most part unknown ...so no more or less better placed than we are with the likes of Post Vickery and Gourdis so to speak
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Good post Camboon but Patto hasn't set the world on fire to date and has been a good honest plodder in the ruck. Perhaps he will prove me wrong playing at CHF but I think he may be too slow for the position.
Patto reminds me a bit of Kingy - huge heart, leaves nothing out on the field but lacks the skills and talent to cement a spot in a quality team.
Sorry mate, I know you love the bloke
Stripes
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Would never ever have gone for JON or Patterson, Patterson was hopeless for Northern Knights.
He was B&F for the Northern Knights in 2004 and CHF in the TAC Team of the year, even captained the TAC side.
Not saying he was the right pick, however not many players from that draft after pick 7 are any good.
he averaged 7 possesions a game in the 4 games he was tagged, give me a break will you. Wouldnt give rats behind what B & F he won :banghead :banghead
Either his team mates were rubbish (plus most of the TAC that year), or perhaps there was more you didn't see, he best form was in the 2nd half of the year
As I said, I'm not saying he was the right pick, but its not like he was a left field selection, he had pretty decent credentials for a junior tall
Looking at the rest of the draft that year, it's not like there's many players outperforming him, not even close
In fact, care to name who you thought we should have picked that year? Looking at the 2004 draft in hindsight, after pick 7 if you take out Father Son picks and Richmond players then there would be 13 guys that I'd even consider having on the list, that's out of over 70 selections that year.
They would be 13. Bate 14. Monfries 21. Murphy 23. Rusling 24. Van Berlo 32. Prismall 37. Le Cras 40. Maric 45. Sherman 53. Taylor 56. Knights 58. Moran & 62. Egan
A few maybes even in that bunch and a couple who have terrible injury runs as well. We didn't miss out on that much, they are the best of a bad bunch.
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Fair enough, but how about offering a suggested CHEF, Vickery, Putt or Cleave, Sarge! I will back Patto to contest all day long against these blokes to allow the crumbers to come onto the game.
Note the Saints - cant stand him, bit Milne and Kossy seem to make a mess of other teams defense.
Anyway I see a bit of Drew Petrie in him and Petrie didn't develop until he had been in the system for a few years.
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Just to add to a disapointing start to the year imo is the fact that there is not even much left on our list we haven't seen yet. A few talls, ie Vickory, Post and maybe Putt (all by the sounds of it are a fair way off) but after that who is there? Rance has been outstanding, Gus has shown signs and Collins has been pretty good but who will be our next player to come in and make a difference?
All this tells me is we have not drafted enough kids over the last 1, 2, 3, years. We should realisticly have about 8 to 10 kids running around at Coburg leaning their trade and pushing for selection.
As somebody else has stated, the more kids you draft, whatever the pick number, the better chance you have of finding a few good ones. No more depth picks please, just young kids who can kick. (and run really fast)
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I reckon we have taken a step forward under FJ...dont dismiss the impact of the coach on recruiting, he requests certain types that need to fill holes on the list EG McMahon and more recently Hislop and thomo
I'm not blaming FJ for McMahon, Hislop and Thomson. His main job is to bring young talent to the club via the U18s. But Cameron as football manager should carry the can for the latter two. He was employed to take list management decisions out of short-term whims of the coach. Now either he supported the decision to trade picks away to top-up or if he didn't support it then he didn't have the ticker to stand up to the coach when the coach is meant to be answerable to him not the other way around. Either way it is bad recruiting policy :P.
When you look at our side even on the weekend despite the poor loss many were 3rd round and later National draft picks - Cousins, Tuck, Newman, Jackson, Moore, Foley, Graham, White, Nahas, McGuane and Collins. Add Connors, Thursty, Raines and Browne who have also played this year and may have a future at Punt Rd and it's very dumb to trade away these picks away every year. Only Morton via a trade has showed any decent form in his time at the club and he's now in and out of the side :-\ but at least he has talent if he starts working harder. We've traded our 3rd round pick away in the past 3 drafts. It's just dumb not putting your faith in the draft when the draft is the only means to access the best kids and bring them to your club.
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I reckon we have taken a step forward under FJ...dont dismiss the impact of the coach on recruiting, he requests certain types that need to fill holes on the list EG McMahon and more recently Hislop and thomo
I'm not blaming FJ for McMahon, Hislop and Thomson. His main job is to bring young talent to the club via the U18s. But Cameron as football manager should carry the can for the latter two. He was employed to take list management decisions out of short-term whims of the coach. Now either he supported the decision to trade picks away to top-up or if he didn't support it then he didn't have the ticker to stand up to the coach when the coach is meant to be answerable to him not the other way around. Either way it is bad recruiting policy :P.
When you look at our side even on the weekend despite the poor loss many were 3rd round and later National draft picks - Cousins, Tuck, Newman, Jackson, Moore, Foley, Graham, White, Nahas, McGuane and Collins. Add Connors, Thursty, Raines and Browne who have also played this year and may have a future at Punt Rd and it's very dumb to trade away these picks away every year. Only Morton via a trade has showed any decent form in his time at the club and he's now in and out of the side :-\ but at least he has talent if he starts working harder. We've traded our 3rd round pick away in the past 3 drafts. It's just dumb not putting your faith in the draft when the draft is the only means to access the best kids and bring them to your club.
well that might shut a few people up on here who still think trading for Thompson and Hislop was a good choice.
The need was for draft picks not supposed inside players who cant even get a game.
we stuffed up plain and simple
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The smokie for me for us in the 2nd round is Ben Griffiths, hopefully he lasts that long. Depending on what pick we get in R1 it should be Butcher or Scully, beyond that its too hard to tell at the moment
i've been trying to keep an eye on ben griffiths as well. unfortunately he's been a bit injury prone and hasn't been able to get on the field.
maybe that will enable us to pick him up on the cheap.
certainly we need to finish with less than 5 wins, preferably with the wooden spoon, and get our 3 picks in the top 20.
3 picks?????
yes 3 picks. say we get the wooden spoon with less than 5 wins, we also get a priority pick at the end of the first round. hence we'd have pick 1, 17 and 18. u
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The smokie for me for us in the 2nd round is Ben Griffiths, hopefully he lasts that long. Depending on what pick we get in R1 it should be Butcher or Scully, beyond that its too hard to tell at the moment
i've been trying to keep an eye on ben griffiths as well. unfortunately he's been a bit injury prone and hasn't been able to get on the field.
maybe that will enable us to pick him up on the cheap.
certainly we need to finish with less than 5 wins, preferably with the wooden spoon, and get our 3 picks in the top 20.
3 picks?????
First round, priority pick for 2nd round, 2nd round.
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Wasnt Ben Griffiths the other kid that turned up to Punt Road with Trent Cotchin as a AIS kid?
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MT - I agree we should have held onto our draft picks but I think we are being a bit harsh on Hislop and Thomson too. Hislop is 20 so has only been in the system for a minimum of years and is still developing and Thomson is 22 and hasn't been given a chance yet. I thought his attack on the ball was excellent during the preseason games. Both of these players need to be afforded the same luxury as our other young players - time to develop as players and more importantly, into the team.
Afterall it has only been 7 rounds. Perhaps we are being a bit impatient with these new players given our current predicament.
Stripes
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MT - I agree we should have held onto our draft picks but I think we are being a bit harsh on Hislop and Thomson too. Hislop is 20 so has only been in the system for a minimum of years and is still developing and Thomson is 22 and hasn't been given a chance yet. I thought his attack on the ball was excellent during the preseason games. Both of these players need to be afforded the same luxury as our other young players - time to develop as players and more importantly, into the team.
Afterall it has only been 7 rounds. Perhaps we are being a bit impatient with these new players given our current predicament.
Stripes
Hislop may have some upside as he's only 20 (I don't see it myself :-\ ) but a 22 year old midfielder should walk into our side especially at the moment if he is any good. This is Thomson's 5th year in the system. We lack mids with good footskills yet we go out and trade our 3rd round pick away for another dodgy kick ???. The question that needs to be asked is did/do we believe Hislop and Thomson will be part of our next premiership side? I would say no as they couldn't get a game at their former clubs and were only brought in as depth players. So why recruit them! It's a waste of draft picks and just further clogs our list with more dead wood that needs to be cleared.
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MT - I agree we should have held onto our draft picks but I think we are being a bit harsh on Hislop and Thomson too. Hislop is 20 so has only been in the system for a minimum of years and is still developing and Thomson is 22 and hasn't been given a chance yet. I thought his attack on the ball was excellent during the preseason games. Both of these players need to be afforded the same luxury as our other young players - time to develop as players and more importantly, into the team.
Afterall it has only been 7 rounds. Perhaps we are being a bit impatient with these new players given our current predicament.
Stripes
Hislop may have some upside as he's only 20 (I don't see it myself :-\ ) but a 22 year old midfielder should walk into our side especially at the moment if he is any good. This is Thomson's 5th year in the system. We lack mids with good footskills yet we go out and trade our 3rd round pick away for another dodgy kick ???. The question that needs to be asked is did/do we believe Hislop and Thomson will be part of our next premiership side? I would say no as they couldn't get a game at their former clubs and were only brought in as depth players. So why recruit them! It's a waste of draft picks and just further clogs our list with more dead wood that needs to be cleared.
Id argue that Hislop prob has a greater prospect of being a senior player than most 45+ in the draft...He was an ok selection, if you consider we needed to add bigger bodied harder inside Mids...cuz and cogs being avaialble has hindered his chances...we'll see more of him
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Would never ever have gone for JON or Patterson, Patterson was hopeless for Northern Knights.
He was B&F for the Northern Knights in 2004 and CHF in the TAC Team of the year, even captained the TAC side.
Not saying he was the right pick, however not many players from that draft after pick 7 are any good.
he averaged 7 possesions a game in the 4 games he was tagged, give me a break will you. Wouldnt give rats behind what B & F he won :banghead :banghead
Either his team mates were rubbish (plus most of the TAC that year), or perhaps there was more you didn't see, he best form was in the 2nd half of the year
As I said, I'm not saying he was the right pick, but its not like he was a left field selection, he had pretty decent credentials for a junior tall
Looking at the rest of the draft that year, it's not like there's many players outperforming him, not even close
In fact, care to name who you thought we should have picked that year? Looking at the 2004 draft in hindsight, after pick 7 if you take out Father Son picks and Richmond players then there would be 13 guys that I'd even consider having on the list, that's out of over 70 selections that year.
They would be 13. Bate 14. Monfries 21. Murphy 23. Rusling 24. Van Berlo 32. Prismall 37. Le Cras 40. Maric 45. Sherman 53. Taylor 56. Knights 58. Moran & 62. Egan
A few maybes even in that bunch and a couple who have terrible injury runs as well. We didn't miss out on that much, they are the best of a bad bunch.
You are missing the point.
Its about weaknesses in the players game. he could have had 20 possesions in the last 5 games , although 18 of the 20 could of been clnagers
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Would never ever have gone for JON or Patterson, Patterson was hopeless for Northern Knights.
He was B&F for the Northern Knights in 2004 and CHF in the TAC Team of the year, even captained the TAC side.
Not saying he was the right pick, however not many players from that draft after pick 7 are any good.
he averaged 7 possesions a game in the 4 games he was tagged, give me a break will you. Wouldnt give rats behind what B & F he won :banghead :banghead
Either his team mates were rubbish (plus most of the TAC that year), or perhaps there was more you didn't see, he best form was in the 2nd half of the year
As I said, I'm not saying he was the right pick, but its not like he was a left field selection, he had pretty decent credentials for a junior tall
Looking at the rest of the draft that year, it's not like there's many players outperforming him, not even close
In fact, care to name who you thought we should have picked that year? Looking at the 2004 draft in hindsight, after pick 7 if you take out Father Son picks and Richmond players then there would be 13 guys that I'd even consider having on the list, that's out of over 70 selections that year.
They would be 13. Bate 14. Monfries 21. Murphy 23. Rusling 24. Van Berlo 32. Prismall 37. Le Cras 40. Maric 45. Sherman 53. Taylor 56. Knights 58. Moran & 62. Egan
A few maybes even in that bunch and a couple who have terrible injury runs as well. We didn't miss out on that much, they are the best of a bad bunch.
You are mising the point.
Its about weaknesses in the players game. he good have had 20 possesions in the last 5 games , although 18 of the 20 could of been clnagers
I'm not missing the point at all, I know exactly what you are saying, however my points still stand, there haven't been many better than Patto taken in that draft and he still won the Knights B&F when you said he was crap. He wouldn't have won the B&F if he had 18 clangers out of 20 disposals in his last 5 games.
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pointless arguing about it.
T. Cloke at 35 ( father and son ) was a steal.
Will say this, Dean Polo was outsanding in his last year with Gippsland. :thumbsup.
One of the best players was the guy who Swans rookies, but was a small nuggety player, forget his name. Dont know what happened to him, wasnt picked up due to his height and body shape, could really play. Bailey ????
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Infamy, all i will say that the only reason they picked him was they wanted a ruckman... On pure ability and skill , he didnt rate, FACT.
He is terrible below the knees
There were probably 100 players well ahead of him
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Infamy, all i will say that the only reason they picked him was they wanted a ruckman... On pure ability and skill , he didnt rate, FACT.
He is terrible below the knees
There were probably 100 players well ahead of him
I am not in the business of backing up Jack, but on this occassion he is right. :shh
They took Patto because they wanted a mobile ruckman and he is was the best available, arted him above Wood on that basis and rightly so.
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Thanks Blaisee :thumbsup
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Wasnt Ben Griffiths the other kid that turned up to Punt Road with Trent Cotchin as a AIS kid?
he did train with us as an AIS kid. but it wasn't the cotchin year. cotchin came with addam maric. ben griffiths came last year with sam blease.
anyone know who came to punt road this year?
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Infamy, all i will say that the only reason they picked him was they wanted a ruckman... On pure ability and skill , he didnt rate, FACT.
He is terrible below the knees
There were probably 100 players well ahead of him
I ask you to name 10 of them from the same draft
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MT - I agree we should have held onto our draft picks but I think we are being a bit harsh on Hislop and Thomson too. Hislop is 20 so has only been in the system for a minimum of years and is still developing and Thomson is 22 and hasn't been given a chance yet. I thought his attack on the ball was excellent during the preseason games. Both of these players need to be afforded the same luxury as our other young players - time to develop as players and more importantly, into the team.
Afterall it has only been 7 rounds. Perhaps we are being a bit impatient with these new players given our current predicament.
Stripes
Hislop may have some upside as he's only 20 (I don't see it myself :-\ ) but a 22 year old midfielder should walk into our side especially at the moment if he is any good. This is Thomson's 5th year in the system. We lack mids with good footskills yet we go out and trade our 3rd round pick away for another dodgy kick ???. The question that needs to be asked is did/do we believe Hislop and Thomson will be part of our next premiership side? I would say no as they couldn't get a game at their former clubs and were only brought in as depth players. So why recruit them! It's a waste of draft picks and just further clogs our list with more dead wood that needs to be cleared.
Id argue that Hislop prob has a greater prospect of being a senior player than most 45+ in the draft...He was an ok selection, if you consider we needed to add bigger bodied harder inside Mids...cuz and cogs being avaialble has hindered his chances...we'll see more of him
True the probability is lower for 45+ picks (Hislop was pick 58) but there are still diamonds to be found in the rough in every draft. There's quite a number top grade AFL players running around who slipped down late in their draft or missed out altogether and were rookied. I guess it depends whether you back your recruiting staff to find them. We've actually done okay with our late picks and rookies when we've gone for kids rather than back-ups - Moore, Foley, Gus, White, Thursty, Collins, Tuck. Connors was pick 58 in 2006. It's been the early picks we've struggled in finding guns. I probably could handle the Hislop trade if we hadn't traded for Thomson as well and we had picked up 5-6 kids in each previous National draft to turnover the list fully. However recruiting both of them was simply taking a short-cut which rarely works anyway so you might as well take the chance on a kid who has some upside.
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anyone know who came to punt road this year?
Rhys Mott from Ulverstone, Tasmania. A small midfielder.
Maverick Weller who is also from Tassie (Burnie Dockers).
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Which kids should we aim for Jack in the upcoming November draft?
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Well smarty , I dont know as I dont do the tapes for the RFC anymore.
Will tell you this.
I vetted all TAC tapes from 2004-2006 and one thing is for certain.
Would never ever have gone for JON or Patterson, Patterson was hopeless for Northern Knights.
I might also say this, its not as easy as going to a game and watching a player.
Before you go and watch someone, you watch the tapes and pick a player who has effective kicks and disposals, irelevant of the quantity.
Then if a player has in successive weeks a high percentage of effective disposals, he is tagged and a "' scout "" will go and watch him.
Once these players were in our system, Greg Miller and then Wallace would go and watch.
If you want the format that the players are graded on, I will send it to you.
For what its worth, I think that Plough disregarded the format and went on gut feeling on alot of selections
Hmmm very interesting. Thanks for that. Always felt we relied on watching tapes too much and got our main impressions from them because of lack of resources (lack of scouts on the ground). The wrong way around IMO as tapes can make someone look better than they are and nothing beats initially judging a kid playing live at the ground but each to their own. It's all very well to have effective disposals stats wise but I like to see how their footy brain works knowing the options available around them with the ball and without (running to the right spots etc) and see if they can excute real effective disposals that are team orientated and damaging. Cousins for instance isn't the best purest kick in the game but he always does the right thing by foot. So see who is a natural footballer and then use data analysis to sort the wheat from the chaff. JON was picked because of the apparent X-factor and athleticism. Too bad that doesn't mean you can kick and play footy :P. As for scouts, Hawthorn would have 4 at each game at different points of the ground writing individual reports to compare. We obviously just had the one so there was no calibration.
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As for scouts, Hawthorn would have 4 at each game at different points of the ground writing individual reports to compare. We obviously just had the one so there was no calibration.
Sadly, Wallace gets the blame for the results of that shortfall.
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MT - I agree we should have held onto our draft picks but I think we are being a bit harsh on Hislop and Thomson too. Hislop is 20 so has only been in the system for a minimum of years and is still developing and Thomson is 22 and hasn't been given a chance yet. I thought his attack on the ball was excellent during the preseason games. Both of these players need to be afforded the same luxury as our other young players - time to develop as players and more importantly, into the team.
Afterall it has only been 7 rounds. Perhaps we are being a bit impatient with these new players given our current predicament.
Stripes
Hislop may have some upside as he's only 20 (I don't see it myself :-\ ) but a 22 year old midfielder should walk into our side especially at the moment if he is any good. This is Thomson's 5th year in the system. We lack mids with good footskills yet we go out and trade our 3rd round pick away for another dodgy kick ???. The question that needs to be asked is did/do we believe Hislop and Thomson will be part of our next premiership side? I would say no as they couldn't get a game at their former clubs and were only brought in as depth players. So why recruit them! It's a waste of draft picks and just further clogs our list with more dead wood that needs to be cleared.
MT - Thomson hasn't had any opportunities to break into the side because he is an inside midfielder who is excellent at clearances. When he was recruited we were unsure whether Cogs would be fit and Cousins wasn't even on the radar. Now though, we has Cogs in the middle along with Tuck, Foley and Lids all clearing the ball to our outside players all of who are ahead of Thomson at the moment.
You state that Thomson won't be in our premiership side, well how do you know that when he hasn't been given the opportunity to show his talent? He wasn't recruited for his footskills but rather his work around stoppages. Tuck and Cousins will not be in the team long term so somone such as Thomson may actually surprize you when he gets into the team. Unfortunately unless our other inside midfielders drop off in form, are injuried or retire he has to keep playing for Coburg. Like Hislop, he is a high draft pick staved of opportunity and I feel we should at least give him that.
Stripes
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MT - I agree we should have held onto our draft picks but I think we are being a bit harsh on Hislop and Thomson too. Hislop is 20 so has only been in the system for a minimum of years and is still developing and Thomson is 22 and hasn't been given a chance yet. I thought his attack on the ball was excellent during the preseason games. Both of these players need to be afforded the same luxury as our other young players - time to develop as players and more importantly, into the team.
Afterall it has only been 7 rounds. Perhaps we are being a bit impatient with these new players given our current predicament.
Stripes
Hislop may have some upside as he's only 20 (I don't see it myself :-\ ) but a 22 year old midfielder should walk into our side especially at the moment if he is any good. This is Thomson's 5th year in the system. We lack mids with good footskills yet we go out and trade our 3rd round pick away for another dodgy kick ???. The question that needs to be asked is did/do we believe Hislop and Thomson will be part of our next premiership side? I would say no as they couldn't get a game at their former clubs and were only brought in as depth players. So why recruit them! It's a waste of draft picks and just further clogs our list with more dead wood that needs to be cleared.
MT - Thomson hasn't had any opportunities to break into the side because he is an inside midfielder who is excellent at clearances. When he was recruited we were unsure whether Cogs would be fit and Cousins wasn't even on the radar. Now though, we has Cogs in the middle along with Tuck, Foley and Lids all clearing the ball to our outside players all of who are ahead of Thomson at the moment.
You state that Thomson won't be in our premiership side, well how do you know that when he hasn't been given the opportunity to show his talent? He wasn't recruited for his footskills but rather his work around stoppages. Tuck and Cousins will not be in the team long term so somone such as Thomson may actually surprize you when he gets into the team. Unfortunately unless our other inside midfielders drop off in form, are injuried or retire he has to keep playing for Coburg. Like Hislop, he is a high draft pick staved of opportunity and I feel we should at least give him that.
Stripes
To be fair to Thommo he isn't playing at the moment because he's been carrying an injury since preseason so I'm not really basing my criticism of the recruiting decision on what he has or hasn't shown so far for us. Moreso based on his ordinary footskills when he was at Port. So much so he handballed twice as much as he kicked to compensate. At 22 his kicking is unlikely to improve. In modern footy you can't have players who are dodgy kicks. Thommo was a fringe player in the SANFL so I don't know why we chased after such a player and then sacrificed a decent 3rd round pick for him. Well I do know why as we wanted a protector in the guts for Axel but you shouldn't ignore a major deficiency such as kicking to snare hardness. Think Jake King :-\. For some reason the Club thinks good footskills and hardness are mutually exclusive when they aren't. I also cringe when a player says he's moved to Richmond for greater opportunity because he couldn't break into his old side. Hello Shane Morrison :P. It makes us sound like we're St Kilda of the 1980s :help.
The Club should stick to drafting and developing its own and in numbers each year especially in a rebuilding phase. After 23 drafts you would've thought the Club would've learnt by now it's the only way to rebuild properly. Just because our recruiters have got it wrong in the past with some their early pick choices doesn't make the philosophy wrong. It means the recruiting dept was poorly resourced and the recruiters at the time were duds as spotters anyway. If those in charge of our club keep employing the wrong people in our footy dept who make these poor recruiting decisions and don't set a firm direction and philisophy for the Club as they should then they should be replaced as well.
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Which kids should we aim for Jack in the upcoming November draft?
.
Well smarty , I dont know as I dont do the tapes for the RFC anymore.
Will tell you this.
I vetted all TAC tapes from 2004-2006 and one thing is for certain.
Would never ever have gone for JON or Patterson, Patterson was hopeless for Northern Knights.
I might also say this, its not as easy as going to a game and watching a player.
Before you go and watch someone, you watch the tapes and pick a player who has effective kicks and disposals, irelevant of the quantity.
Then if a player has in successive weeks a high percentage of effective disposals, he is tagged and a "' scout "" will go and watch him.
Once these players were in our system, Greg Miller and then Wallace would go and watch.
If you want the format that the players are graded on, I will send it to you.
For what its worth, I think that Plough disregarded the format and went on gut feeling on alot of selections
Hmmm very interesting. Thanks for that. Always felt we relied on watching tapes too much and got our main impressions from them because of lack of resources (lack of scouts on the ground). The wrong way around IMO as tapes can make someone look better than they are and nothing beats initially judging a kid playing live at the ground but each to their own. It's all very well to have effective disposals stats wise but I like to see how their footy brain works knowing the options available around them with the ball and without (running to the right spots etc) and see if they can excute real effective disposals that are team orientated and damaging. Cousins for instance isn't the best purest kick in the game but he always does the right thing by foot. So see who is a natural footballer and then use data analysis to sort the wheat from the chaff. JON was picked because of the apparent X-factor and athleticism. Too bad that doesn't mean you can kick and play footy :P. As for scouts, Hawthorn would have 4 at each game at different points of the ground writing individual reports to compare. We obviously just had the one so there was no calibration.
Correct
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You don't have to be too good to pick the the top 20 draft picks - you buy the paper. All you experts who slag on recruiters ( even the ones who were sacked ), how about watching some >18 games and tell us who is on song and why they are worthy of our heart and soul. If you get it wrong please include your families address so we can burn down the house and attack your loved ones for the pain you have caused us - only serious!
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You don't have to be too good to pick the the top 20 draft picks - you buy the paper. All you experts who slag on recruiters ( even the ones who were sacked ), how about watching some >18 games and tell us who is on song and why they are worthy of our heart and soul. If you get it wrong please include your families address so we can burn down the house and attack your loved ones for the pain you have caused us - only serious!
We've actually done alright with our late picks and rookies when we've gone for kids. Over half our side on Sunday will be post pick 50 selections while only 5 are top 20s (and that includes Petts). It's the top 20 picks where you hope to pick up future guns that we've had a below par return from. It hasn't helped that we traded away early picks pre-Wallace and missed a generation who would now be our 24-28 y.o. core rather than relying on 30+ years olds to support the younger Tigers. There's Newy, Cogs and Petts and that's about it in that range :P. That's why picking 2-3 kids up each National draft isn't enough. I agree it isn't an exact science. So if you get one or two wrong from so few selections or you waste picks on recycled fringe players it comes back to bite you long-term. We'll have to select 5-6 kids in this upcoming National draft and then pick a few more kids as rookies to make up for selecting only 13 kids in the past four National drafts (11 of which are still on our list).
Here's what I had pre-draft (U18 champs).
2008: http://oneeyed-richmond.com/forum//index.php?topic=8076.msg106592#msg106592
2007: http://oneeyed-richmond.com/forum//index.php?topic=5094.msg65737#msg65737
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Good Post MT, agree totally.
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It's not FJ's fault either if the player he drooled over in the U18s and wanted to draft to Punt Rd (Scott Selwood now at the Eagles) is missed because those in positions above him had already traded away the pick we could have got Selwood with :P.