Author Topic: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)  (Read 1716 times)

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98047
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« on: April 17, 2021, 04:48:56 PM »
Robbo: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes?

Mark Robinson
HeraldSun
17 April 2021


Brisbane, Geelong and Hawthorn had to rebuild after its dynasty years and Richmond soon enough will have to do the same. What will that mean for its ageing stars?

Could you ever imagine Trent Cotchin finishing his career at Port Adelaide?

Or Jack Riewoldt playing his last game with Collingwood? Or Shane Edwards wearing a St Kilda jumper?

For Richmond fans, it’s unfathomable to even consider these premiership legends could end their careers at another club.
Just as it was for Hawks fans before four-timers Luke Hodge was hustled away to Brisbane, Sam Mitchell traded out to West Coast and Jordan Lewis sent to Melbourne,

And even recent decisions which saw Grant Birchall switch to Brisbane and Isaac Smith to Geelong.

And Cats fans, can you recall the thunderbolt emotion when Steve Johnson departed for the Giants? Or when fellow premiership players Paul Chapman, Mathew Stokes and James Kelly joined Essendon?

Richmond will soon be confronted with list-management decisions and/or discussions with several of its veteran champs about how their careers will end.

Will they finish at Richmond or at another club?

After Thursday’s destructive performance against St Kilda, and after what looms as another strong September campaign, the eventual dismantling of one of the greatest teams of all time is probably a public topic before its time.

Rest assured, though, the list management group at Richmond has already started planning. It has to. It’s their job.

They have three recent “dynasty’’ case studies to consider:

1. Brisbane. At the end of the three-peat, the Lions went into free fall and from 2005-2018 played in only one finals series (2008). Only Jason Akermanis (Western Bulldogs) and Daniel Bradshaw (Sydney) left the Lions for another club.

2. Hawthorn. Post-dynasty, Lewis and Mitchell departed at the end of 2016, Hodge at the end of 2017, Jarryd Roughead rejected encouragement to join either St Kilda or Gold Coast at the end of 2018 and then Birchall (2019) and Isaac Smith (2020) walked out the door. The Hawks played finals in 2018, and it would appear they are set to miss three consecutive finals series.

3. Geelong. They have been contender every season since 2011 barring 2015. They managed out Johnson, Chapman, Stokes and Kelly and retired Jimmy Bartel when Bartel believed he had another season in him. Their list strategy has worked, albeit they haven’t won another premiership.

Richmond will study and learn from those three teams — about jettisoning/retiring players — while still trying to lay claim to being a premiership contender, if that’s possible.

It would appear the Tigers know they need first-round picks to refresh their list.

Last year, they traded their 2020 first-round selection for Geelong’s 2021 first-round pick. So it’s possible they could win the flag this year and enter the draft with two first-rounders.

That’s shrewd planning.

Still, Hawthorn and Geelong made hard calls on list management because: A) It freed up the salary cap; and, B) It gave opportunities to younger players.

So, will Richmond do the same? Will they let Cotchin, Riewoldt and Edwards, and perhaps even Bachar Houli, who are aged 31 or more, play out their careers until retirement or not?

Each individual is different. It can get messy if, for example, Riewoldt believes he has more footy in him than what the club might think he has. He may choose to go elsewhere for $450,000 a year rather than retire.

At the end of Lewis’ time at Hawthorn, he had one year of senior footy remaining and no promise of a follow-up deal. He then signed a three-year contract at Melbourne.

Lewis was shocked when coach Alastair Clarkson first revealed his plan. The extra two years on a contract made it a soft landing.

Still, Lewis has only once been back to Hawthorn since leaving. That was for best mate Roughie’s final game.
Hodge and Clarkson are cool with what played out. Those two and their families caught up over summer for dinner and drinks.

So there’s no ill-feeling there.

Hodge’s departure was different to the Lewis situation. Hodge told Clarkson and the team he was retiring and then Lions coach Chris Fagan swayed him north.

Clarkson offered Hodge a one-year to stay, but Hodge had already committed to Fagan.

It was a family decision, with his wife Lauren and their four boys, hell bent on moving north.

The Hawks got pick 45 for Hodge and used it to select James Worpel.

Tigers coach Damien Hardwick is not foreign to switching clubs to extend a career.

He was offered a one-year deal at Essendon at the end of 2001, but signed a three-year deal to play with Port Adelaide.

It delivered Dimma a second premiership (2004).

Hawks fans didn’t like the jettisoning of their premiership heroes, but after Clarkson explained why he had to be so ruthless, there was a level of understanding.

Among all the emotion, business decisions have to be made, and those decisions are favourable for the player.

You’d have to argue the jury is out on Hawthorn’s list management moves - clearing cap space to bring in Tom Mitchell, Jaeger O’Meara, Chad Wingard, Jonathan Patton, Tom Scully and Tom Phillips, and for a lesser cost Jarman Impey and Sam Frost.

The Hawks brought in first-round selection Denver Grainger-Barras at the end of last year and will keep this year’s first rounder.

If you asked Geelong, they’d surely say they have the Hawks covered.

A possible complex situation at Richmond at the end of next season — especially if the Tigers fall off their perch — could be avoided if the planets align.

If Cotchin, Riewoldt, Edwards and Houli are happy to retire when discussions eventually hit the pointy end, the Tigers will have steered clear of choppy waters.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/expert-opinion/mark-robinson/mark-robinson-on-the-list-calls-richmond-will-face-to-remain-a-contender/news-story/cf7ddfe1f3bf7d9e763da190c4d9536d

Offline mightytiges

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 58594
  • Eat 'Em Alive!
    • oneeyed-richmond.com
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2021, 06:09:39 PM »
Robbo just massaging the 'ends of Tiger days' article he had already written before Thursday night hoping we would lose ::).

Blind Freddy knows one day our premiership champions will retire and this dynasty will end. The AFL system is designed to stop clubs being contenders all the time year in year out. As all three scenarios Robbo lists haven't delivered a single premiership since then we wouldn't copy any of them.

The key for us is not to make the mistakes of past that saw us in the wilderness for decades. No quick fixes which you can accuse Brisbane, Geelong and Hawthorn of all doing post their dynasties.
Brisbane chased Fevola hoping to pinch another flag before an aging Brown, Black and co. retired;
Hawthorn traded away their future for O'Meara, Mitchell and co.;
Geelong have been topping up for a decade and now face an age cliff without another flag to show for it.

When the current era is over we will need to accept and take our medicine of a couple of years of low ladder finishes and hit the draft the next young core to build around for the next decade. We need to remember we got Cotch at pick 2 and Dusty at pick 3. So make sure our recruiting is sharp and well resourced to get those early picks right so we can rise again in the shortest period possible (without quick fixes that lead to only mid-ladder & one off finals no-man's land). So for example if we're on the decline by say 2025 then we should be aiming to rebuild for sustained finals appearances and contending again by the early 2030s.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline Tigeritis™©®

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9657
  • Richmond, Premiers 2017.2019.2020
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2021, 08:51:36 PM »
Robbo is an absolute Muppet.

It’s mindboggling he is a journalist and that he has the profile he has.
The club that keeps giving.

Online georgies31

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 3954
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2021, 09:07:47 PM »
Robbo just massaging the 'ends of Tiger days' article he had already written before Thursday night hoping we would lose ::).

Blind Freddy knows one day our premiership champions will retire and this dynasty will end. The AFL system is designed to stop clubs being contenders all the time year in year out. As all three scenarios Robbo lists haven't delivered a single premiership since then we wouldn't copy any of them.

The key for us is not to make the mistakes of past that saw us in the wilderness for decades. No quick fixes which you can accuse Brisbane, Geelong and Hawthorn of all doing post their dynasties.
Brisbane chased Fevola hoping to pinch another flag before an aging Brown, Black and co. retired;
Hawthorn traded away their future for O'Meara, Mitchell and co.;
Geelong have been topping up for a decade and now face an age cliff without another flag to show for it.

When the current era is over we will need to accept and take our medicine of a couple of years of low ladder finishes and hit the draft the next young core to build around for the next decade. We need to remember we got Cotch at pick 2 and Dusty at pick 3. So make sure our recruiting is sharp and well resourced to get those early picks right so we can rise again in the shortest period possible (without quick fixes that lead to only mid-ladder & one off finals no-man's land). So for example if we're on the decline by say 2025 then we should be aiming to rebuild for sustained finals appearances and contending again by the early 2030s.

Great points mate spot on.Our era will come to end like they all do.The question is as you say we cannot get stuck in wilderness for 20 years plus as previously do proper rebuild no short cuts and most importantly we need a strong football management team and plan.

Offline Andyy

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9941
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2021, 01:26:18 AM »
I'd be happy if they all stayed and retired and we went downhill.

We've had our days in the sun.

I hope we nail the draft and in 5+ years we are challenging again when Balta, Bolton, Baker, George, Graham etc are all 150-200 game vets.

Offline pmac21

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4664
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2021, 05:14:34 PM »
Was interested in the headline before I saw who wrote it. 

Offline the claw

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4259
  • For We're From Tigerland
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2021, 11:50:28 AM »
Most  of the older blokes dont need to be retired atm. The time to ask them to retire is when younger blokes who look like very good prospects are not getting a game.
We can keep most on we just need them to have lesser roles and have more of the younger blokes getting more responsibility and games and game time over the next 3 or 4 seasons. Now is the time to be balancing this out.

Come 2025 we want  the younger blokes to have become mainstays of the team. They cant become main stays if we cant find a way to get more games into them.
Imo this yr because of the age demographic is the last yr we will have a proper crack at the flag for awhile.

Jack Riewoldt is  very much a required player atm he aint keeping anyone out of a game as there is no young high quality key forward coming thru.
More likely we will have to go thru free agency or do a trade for a kpf over the next year or two. to replace Jack.

Older mids such as  Cotchin, well he  is still  playing great footy as is Dusty, Edwards makes regular good contributions as well. i reckon the real trick  for us is  to do a couple of things like  manage these blokes as best we can so  they stay fit right thru a long season.  This  ensures we get some  games into the likes of Ross  RCD and  Dow  etc for when they do retire.
We can also get games into them the younger mids  by playing them in the place of fringe players like Rioli and a few others players whose roles are well and truly covered. My concern is we are not getting games into the young mids we have on the list apart from a couple.

The Oldie i think in most strife is probably Houli as we have a list of younger players who can be asked to perform his role. Short, Baker, Ralphsmith, Mansell,Broad and  Stack is a possibility here along with Pickett and we already have Vlastuin to come back in.

We well and truly have the ruck position covered with a long list of ruckmen at various stages of development. Soldo, Nankervis, Ryan, Colina, Chol and CC-J are all primarily ruckmen first imo. How good as rucks the last four are is what is debateable.

The other area outside of KPF that is a bit thin is our KPD stocks. Biggie Nyuon who is listed as a ruckman but is clearly a kpd in the making is still a junior.
Then there is Ben Miller who is still a junior in the age sense, havent seen or heard  much of him, He has no games  to his name and has been in the system a bit. The only other possibility is Garthwaite and i dont think he is a genuine KPD at AFL level more a third tall type.

We are gunna be in a bit of strife if Balta or Astbury get hurt because these are the only options imo. Maybe we need to go through free agency or trade to bolster this area as well with a ready made kpd in the short term.

Hmm how would it look  YR 2025 with the most mature and current regulars named in the team first. All players aged 29 plus this yr have retired by 2025.?

Vlastuin 31yo - Balta 26yo - Garthwaite 26

Broad 31 - Nyuon 23yo - Short 29yo

McIntosh 31yo - Prestia 32yo - Naish 26yo
Nankervis 30yo - Caddy 32yo - Graham 27yo

Bolton 26yo - CC-J  25yo - Rioli 28yo
Castagna 28yo - Lynch 32yo - Aarts 30yo

Soldo - 28yo - Baker 27yo - Ross 24 - Martyn 24.

Chol 28yo - DE-S 26yo - Dow 23yo - Miller 25yo - Mansell 24yo - Ralphsmith 23yo - RC-D 25yo - Stack 24yo - Ryan 24yo - Cumberland 24yo M Rioli 22yo - Colina 25yo.

A good chance by 2025 all the following have retired and if not retired on their last legs.

Riewoldt, Martin, Edwards, Lambert, Cotchin, Grimes, Astbury, Houli, Pickett,  are all at least 29yo right now and will be at least 33yo by 2025.

If still at the club in 2025 others who will be 30 plus who are currently under 29.
Broad 32, McIntosh 31, Caddy 32, Prestia 32,Lynch 32, Nankervis 30,Aarts 30, Vlastuin 31.

We have just two young mids in the team who have 50 games to their name. Graham 60 and Bolton 52 games. The next best is Jack Ross with 18. Getting games into blokes who are actual mids and adding to them is crucial.  Finding a couple of GENUINE  Key Forwards to develop and with JR soon to retire getting one thru F/A or trade.
Investing in another high quality key defender or two  just in case the few we do have dont make the grade.

One thing is certain if we dont want to bottom out and spend a significant amount of time rebuilding then we must be looking for some regeneration now.
Imo to have a decent crack at the flag this year we need new blood as well.

Few teams with an average age of 27yr plus has won a g/f and those that have managed to play in a g/f have gone into decline. We are at that point in time right now. We won the flag last yr with an average age of 27yr 47days and with no new blood the age will go up.


« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 01:20:16 PM by the claw »

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98047
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2021, 04:36:15 PM »
Robbo on 3aw yesterday was again quoting from his article above and how when everyone says Richmond will be alright based on the past 4 years, he says "I don't know about that".

Offline Francois Jackson

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14034
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2021, 08:02:09 PM »
Robbo on 3aw yesterday was again quoting from his article above and how when everyone says Richmond will be alright based on the past 4 years, he says "I don't know about that".

i dont watch any program where that lard arse is on, though i was in a room a few minutes ago and heard him repeat the same dribble. I then walked out.

he is a disgrace that peace of poo. How he even calls himself a journo is beyond me

Currently a member of the Roupies, and employed by the great man Roup.

Offline camboon

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2021, 08:26:18 PM »
He is a nuff nuff , just trying to make himself relevant , instead of the silly smelly drunk he is known to be

Offline Knighter

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 2740
  • For We're From Tigerland
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2021, 08:36:51 PM »
Big questions over Houli and Cotchin atm. Riewoldt is going well and Edwards continues to get better every year.

Agree that Slobbo is a massive tool

Offline Francois Jackson

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14034
Re: Will Tigers make ruthless calls on flag heroes? (HeraldSun)
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2021, 08:42:24 PM »
the day i saw the lard arse waiting for a taxi at crown with a ciggy half hanging out of his drunken mouth was enough for me.

biggest tool in the media
Currently a member of the Roupies, and employed by the great man Roup.