Competitive positions

[Stripes]

As far as I can see we have more depth in our side next year than we have had for years but some places remain particularly competitive. These position are -

B         Thursfield           Moore          Newman

HB         ?????           McGuane         McMahon   

C         Richo                Tuck               ????

HF        ????               Riewoldt          Cotchin

F          Brown               ????              Morton

Foll       Simmonds          Deledio           Foley

Int       Pattison           Cousins        ????       ????


Backline

Our backline appears to be the most stable of all the positions across the ground with Moore, Thursfield and McGaune forming the backbone of our defence. Newman and McMahon are our defenders/midfielder who run us out of the backhalf but you may even argue that their positions are not ironclad either but the captain at the very least will play somewhere every week.

The big question mark remains on our 4th tall and back pocket player. We just don't seem to have a small defender who can shut down the likes of Milne currently. Schulz has filled the 4th tall option when the opposition has gone in with a tall forwardline but I would like to see Rance given an opportunity in this position as the year progresses with perhaps Jay moving down into the forwardline if we remain weak down there.

In terms of our small defender Tambling is our first option here but may lack the defensive/shut down skills required for the positions being a naturally attacking player. He provides plenty of run particularly as the game progresses and everyone is out on their feet, Bling seems to be the only player who can still break a game open.

Raines is another option but before he was injured he was struggling with form and was being targeted by opposition forwards as he ran out of the D50. He was starting to play some good football in the midfield so he is an enigma to me at present.

King has more heart, determination and aggression than anyone in our side but these strengths are tempered with his weakness which include his poor aerial prowess, dubious decision making and foot skills. He was exposed by opposition teams one out in the square last year which makes him filling this position less than ideal for me.

Hislop remains a possibility next year. He has the fire in his belly to succeed and natural aggression that is ideal for this position coupled with good skills and aerial ability from what I have seen. He is still young but may claim the spot with good form as the year advances.


So for mine I would move Tambling to the wing, start with Raines in the back pocket and possibly replace him with Hislop if he outperforms the other canidates.

Anyone have any opinions that vary from this?


Stripes

[F0551L]

 good post Stripes     
do you see Sugar or Joelene playing any major role in the team in 09 also is Clever going to stand up and make the FF spot his own
Im hoping Rance will step in to the starting team but as this post says there will surely be competition every week for atleast 1/2 a dozen positions

[Stripes]

On the wing we have the biggest magnitude of possibilities which are dependent upon form and style of play. Currently we have Richo on the wing acting as a link player and utility - moving where he feels he is most required. What needs to be explored possibly this year coming and definately by in 2010 is whether in his absence we still wish to develop a wingman mimicking the big fellow or we go down the more traditional small, quick, skillful type of player.

If we do wish to find a replacement wingman in the Richo mold then the options are limited to Gourdis, Post, Vickery and Schulz. The problem with trying to replace a player like Richo is that he is nigh irreplacable so any attempt to do so will likely come up short. In addition using a potentially quality tall such as the three mentioned can only employed if we have the forward key position places covered first but regardless here is my take on these three options -

Gourdis - Has the speed, agility and aerial ability to fill this role well but currently possibly lacks the footskills to deliver the ball into the forwardline cleanly.

Post - untried and untested he could potential fill this role and is touted as a utility player who could go forward or back depending upon the needs in any given game. Clean hands but I am uncertain of his speed or endurance which would be needed to expose a smaller match up in the centre. Worth considering but still very young.

Vickery - in a similiar boat to Post in terms of experience and has a question mark over his endurance at the moment but certainly has the aerial ability, strength and footskills to take on this role if required. Unlikey to fill the position though as he will be needed elsewhere on the ground.

Schulz - could be ideal for this spot but again has he got endurance etc to work in this role?


Stripes

[mightytiges]

Great post Stripes  . Plenty of food for thought.

Moore, Thursty and McGuane are very versatile as a group of talls. Moore this year took over as FB and our number 1 key defender for handling Buddy, Fev and co. Thursty played that "2nd" tall defender on the quick leading forwards or midsized opposition forwards who play tall. Lukey took the tall opposition forwards such as a resting ruckman as well as running off his opponent as a rebounding attacking option. We probably don't as yet have someone who has cemented themselves in the side as a traditional CHB but if all sides start copying Hawthorn's cluster zone as we did later on in the year where the high defenders around the 50m arc push up into the midfield zone then I guess the traditional positional CHB becomes virtually obsolete. You then want more a KPP who also has the mobility of a tall midfielder. Rance or Post could as yet fill the role.

I wouldn't class Newy as a BP. I would have him as a HBF and then a ? in the BP for the small pricks like Milne or one of North's many small/midsized forwards who have touched us up a nymber of times. Blingers filled the hole when he was still able to run off and rebound but I'm not sure if he's the man for the role as locked down BP. A bit of a waste too if he was used that way. Kingy and Rainesy were found wanting once oppositon clubs worked them out so they're going to have to find new tricks and a new position to survive long term. I know he was read the riot act and survived the chop by the skin of his teeth but Polo is one I wouldn't mind experimenting as a BP.

The forward line would be mainly ?'s for mine. 2008 was a transition period with Richo moving out to the wing and Jack, Mitch and Cleve left to sink or swim. Hopefully 2009 will be to our forward line what 2008 was to our defence and our spine becomes settled.

[Stripes]

Interesting point you make regarding the CHB position MT. What role do you believe Schulz has been playing in defense this year? I like your idea regarding Rance and Post which both certainly have the height and size to be used in this zone defence. Interesting to see where we go here.

The back pocket/small sut down defender is one of our biggest weaknesses and Polo could be the answer here given his recent experiences as a tagger. The roles would be readily transferable in my opinon. I still think TW will try Raines in this role at the start of the year but I agree with you - unless he has improved his decision making he will be found out again.

If we do play a zone defense it will have implication all over the ground. Is it better to have more talls around the midfield in this instance or more quick midfielders? I guess quick talls would be a better option in the air but smalls better moving the ball by hand when we attack. I don't have an answer here - possibly a mix.

One of the weaknesses of the zone Hawthorn has employed (and TW successfully found a method through it BTW) is once the opposition do get past it the defenders are exposed one out in the backline. I'm not overly knowledgable about the Hawks defending stocks but they seemed to be found out regularly against their forward opponent the majority of times they were left to defend their direct opponents in this situation.

I think our defenders in Moore, Thursty and McGuane may have more success but again with all the room to lead into past the zone, I think it would be difficult to stop forwards in regardless particularly our bugbear - small forwards. Also once the attacking team has moved through the zone it places them close to the forward fifty allowing them to pinpoint a forward much more readily close or deep in the attacking zone. Regardless I think our defenders would have more luck in this situation. 

So perhaps if we are going this way players such as Schulz, Post, McGuane, Rance, Gourdis etc will have more value than smaller types. But perhaps I'm thinking too much 

Stripes

[camboon]

Good posts Mikey Boy

Been thinking through this one myself with the mid - fielders more in mind. Some  of the mids might have to rotate through the wings and flanks but they will all have to fight for a game - healthy position to be in, all going well.

[mightytiges]

True camboon.


Stripes, I'm not sure Sarge always knew what exact role he was playing at times lol. Nah seriously I would say he took over from Polly's role. A third tall who would sit and fill the hole in front of the opposition's main goto forward and who we could swing from defence to up forward as needed as a pinchhitter. Sarge's best game for the club was in that win over Hawthorn - 29 possies and 17 marks . At least now he's no longer a one game wonder who kicked 6 on Leppitsch and Michael at their peak.

For our midfield mix I reckon we match up okay against Hawthorn, who are more experienced and hitting their peak, as they are a fairly tall side. However, we seem to struggle against sides with a number of the same types especially bulky smalls - Swans, Crows and North. Do we alter our line-up to match-up better or is it a case of maintaining our own structure and just letting younger bodies develop and become stronger? I would maintain a structure that we believe will eventually win finals. At the end of the day you've got to back yourselves and your gameplan to win the big games. I remember Hafey saying that there were sides who used fancy high possession/handball tactics to beat us during the H/A season but we never had to worry about them as they never made the finals. Geelong is still a superior side to us who choked in front of goal on the big day. They are still the ones to beat IMO with the Hawks a clear second to the rest of the comp. We were able to stick with Geelong for around a half. You would hope in 2009 we can start to bridge that gap. The rest are average sides IMO who we need to beat next year to reach the finals. The first six rounds will be a good guide on whether we have improved on 2008 with games against Carl, Geel, Dogs, North and the Swans. This is where our new midfield depth will be tested if it's up to the standard we hope and need it to be.

You're right Stripes about the weakness of the Hawthorn cluster is once you get past it their defence is exposed. Their defence is suspect (Hodge freewheeling as a sweeper stabilised it for the rest of the year after we destroyed the cluster) but the weakness is more due to the openess and lack of numbers behind the cluster. The first time we played against the cluster we tried to handball our way through it with mixed success. We had something like 50 more handballs than kicks! They also kicked a heap of points we kept us in the game but also forced Newy to bomb his torps from the kick-ins over the cluster. In the second meeting we were more prepared and it didn't take us a quarter/half to adjust. We were ready from the first bounce so we weren't playing catch-up and this time we successfully footpassed through the zone (surprisingly our footskills held up well all day) and we also turned the zone back onto the Hawks. It was them (especially Sam Mitchell) who were coughing up turnovers by foot going forward and they ran out of ideas quickly (Hodge and Mitchell arguing at quarter time). We had a complete turnaround in stats from round 6 to 20. We had 90 more kicks than handballs and twice as many marks. The Hawks had to either maintain their zone which meant we had a player free somewhere or they manned up which obviously destoys the cluster anyhow and forces them away from their normal gameplan. Our precise footskills on the day was crucial to the success of slicing through the cluster. It'll be interesting to see what the other clubs come up with after 6 months of preseason planning to counter the cluster now that Hawthorn is the hunted trendsetter. I bet they watch our round 20 win over and over again.

[Stripes]

MT, I way I understand it the cluster involves everyone on the field except for the backline.

So I believe the field structures up like this (X = defender) -

FF -                           



HF -              X                            X


             X            X               X              X

           
C  -       X            X               X              X


            X            X                X              X


HB -              X             X              X

   

                                 
FB -                               X


If we are mimicking this defence and other teams in term mimick the way we broke it down then it stands to reason that we should seek to find methods to fix its flaws and improve the zone itself. TW loves this type of defence and tactical play such as when he executed the Adelaide 'keepings off' strategy. If we choose a more traditional man on man defence then does this expose our smaller body size and inexperience. Teams such as Geelong can match up well all across the ground as we probably will be able to too in a few years time but perhaps a zone is better for us at this stage.

Stripes

[mightytiges]

Looks like Space Invaders 


It's a 15-man zone so move one more of the defenders up into the midfield zone. It's more a sustainable tactic too independent of what the opposition does so it's not a one-off thing like that Adelaide game was which relied as much on Adelaide flooding everyone back than anything we did. The Crows were just stupid as we were in front so we didn't cared if no one scored again and the Bowdens just played kick-to-kick for 2 hours.

The 15-man moving cluster zone as with any tactic has a weakness (lack of numbers behind the cluster) otherwise the ultimate football strategy would've been implemented by now. Clarkson just relies on the pros of the cluster far outweighing the weakness(es). In the second quarter of the GF the cluster was useless as the Cats were smashing the Hawks out of the centre and the ball spent most of the time in Geelong's forward line. However the Cats choked in front of goal as we know and didn't make the Hawks pay on the scoreboard and once the momentum swung midway through the 3rd qtr Dew and Williams made the most of it and that's where they won it. Against us though we hit pay dirt most times we broke through the zone and the Hawks thanks to Buddy missed their opportunities. At the end of the day any tactic simple or fancy is meaniless unless it results in you kicking more goals than your opposition.

The cluster really didn't win the Hawks the premiership on GF day. It was more their workrate, physicality, teamwork and desperation (Rioli beating two Cats on the wing in the 3rd qtr) which swung the game around in their favour. I reckon that's why Plough has publicly put the onus on us to improve our gutrunning and 1%ers as a team over preseason. Footy is still a simple game at its heart.

[Judge Roughneck]

FF -                           



HF -              X - Richo                            X - Brown


             X - Morton            X - Riewoldt               X - Deledio              X - Cousins

           
C  -       X - Cotchin            X - Tuck               X - Coughlan              X - Foley


            X - Connors            X - White                X - Simmonds              X - Tambling


HB -              X - Newman             X - Moore              X - McGaune

   

                                 
FB -                               X - Thursfeild




 

[mightytiges]

Foley's so good he can cover two spots at once Bents  .

Move Richo to the wing and put Morton next to Browny.

[Judge Roughneck]

Foley's so good he can cover two spots at once Bents  .

Move Richo to the wing and put Morton next to Browny.

Richo & Brown in the forward 50 for at least some stage of the game