Going backwards?

[Infamy]

Just thought it would be interesting to reference our first two games of the year back to the respective two matches against those same teams last year.

2009 Round 1 - Carlton won by 83 points
Carlton Blues - Average Age: 23y 172d - Average Games: 68.2
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 24y 347d - Average Games 98.8

2009 Round 11 - Carlton won by 68 points
Carlton Blues - Average Age: 23y 47d - Average Games: 67.4
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 22y 298d - Average Games 56.1

2010 Round 1 - Carlton won by 56 points
Carlton Blues - Average Age: 23y 252d - Average Games: 73.4
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 23y 142d - Average Games 60.0

___________________________________

2009 Round 3 - Bulldogs won by 47 points
Western Bulldogs - Average Age: 25y 193d - Average Games: 107.7
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 24y 175d - Average Games 82.6

2009 Round 11 - Bulldogs won by 68 points
Western Bulldogs - Average Age: 25y 202d - Average Games: 113.5
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 24y 175d - Average Games 88.7

2010 Round 2 - Bulldogs won by 72 points
Western Bulldogs - Average Age: 26y 143d - Average Games: 118.7
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 22y 360d - Average Games 51.5


Our averages are going to come down significantly once Simmonds is out of the side. Just taking Ben Cousins out dropped our average age for all 22 players by half a year and dropped the average games experience by 8.5 games, which is a 15% drop. Pretty massive difference between the Dogs & Tigers on the weekend, yet people expect us to be beating them.

[Tigermonk]

Imfamy if you think football is based around stats & players ages then thats your opinion but l dont agree

its based on height, fitness, physical strength, decision making, skills, endurance, knowing your team-mates ability, Timing  & confidence.
your own attitude as a player to except the task before you

Stats are meaningless & always has been
Stats are a tool & shows you nothing especialy if you barrack for a team who gets alot of the ball & still gets defeated

l could explain this in many ways but really l cant be bothered

[Infamy]

So you think the FACT that the Western Bulldog's players are mostly fully grown men who've played more than double the amount of games as their opponents is completely irrelevant? I'm not talking about number of kicks here, just the experience of the respective sides. Nowhere did I say it was the ultimate answer either, that was half the point, did you even look at what I posted? Look at our worst loss to Carlton in Round 1 2009. We were far older than the Blues and with far more experience and got smashed.

Howerver, can you not understand that a players fitness, physical strength, decision making, endurance, knowing their team-mate's ability and confidence are all things a player gets by spending time playing more games of AFL? No player on earth has had these things from walking into a side on day one. It's called experience and our current team doesn't have it.

[torch]

Just thought it would be interesting to reference our first two games of the year back to the respective two matches against those same teams last year.

2009 Round 1 - Carlton won by 83 points
Carlton Blues - Average Age: 23y 172d - Average Games: 68.2
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 24y 347d - Average Games 98.8

2009 Round 11 - Carlton won by 68 points
Carlton Blues - Average Age: 23y 47d - Average Games: 67.4
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 22y 298d - Average Games 56.1

2010 Round 1 - Carlton won by 56 points
Carlton Blues - Average Age: 23y 252d - Average Games: 73.4
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 23y 142d - Average Games 60.0

___________________________________

2009 Round 3 - Bulldogs won by 47 points
Western Bulldogs - Average Age: 25y 193d - Average Games: 107.7
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 24y 175d - Average Games 82.6

2009 Round 11 - Bulldogs won by 68 points
Western Bulldogs - Average Age: 25y 202d - Average Games: 113.5
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 24y 175d - Average Games 88.7

2010 Round 2 - Bulldogs won by 72 points
Western Bulldogs - Average Age: 26y 143d - Average Games: 118.7
Richmond Tigers - Average Age: 22y 360d - Average Games 51.5


Our averages are going to come down significantly once Simmonds is out of the side. Just taking Ben Cousins out dropped our average age for all 22 players by half a year and dropped the average games experience by 8.5 games, which is a 15% drop. Pretty massive difference between the Dogs & Tigers on the weekend, yet people expect us to be beating them.

that is a lie! that never happened!

first, we played Carlton Round 1 and around Round 13-18 and lost by 20 points, with Fevola kicking 9!

second, did we play twice in Round 11, 2009 against Carlton and Western???

 

[Tigermonk]

So you think the FACT that the Western Bulldog's players are mostly fully grown men who've played more than double the amount of games as their opponents is completely irrelevant? I'm not talking about number of kicks here, just the experience of the respective sides. Nowhere did I say it was the ultimate answer either, that was half the point, did you even look at what I posted? Look at our worst loss to Carlton in Round 1 2009. We were far older than the Blues and with far more experience and got smashed.

Howerver, can you not understand that a players fitness, physical strength, decision making, endurance, knowing their team-mate's ability and confidence are all things a player gets by spending time playing more games of AFL? No player on earth has had these things from walking into a side on day one. It's called experience and our current team doesn't have it.

Just to answer your first bit about the Bulldogs, if it was not for players like Tambling turning the ball over so easy & the bad umpiring decisions in the 1st half them lads would have been alot closer than 31 points at the main change. The Bulldogs didnot have full control of that game.

Richmond are the only club that uses the excuses of this and that & its been going on to long.  These lads are in 100% better shape than over the last 30 years  so l will say again  "These ready made footballers who have mostly played senior football in thier local before going to TAC are football fit & ready"

Deledio, Tambling, Martin, played round 1 in thier 1st years, Whats Deledio & Tambling excuses for not being standout league guns cause Martin looks better & works harder than both of them so dont give me poor excuses l seen & heard them for years.



Eddie Betts played from day 1 & dont use excuses Kreuzer, Robertson,  YARREN no excuses

What about the young Freo players whats thier excuses.

Bulldogs lads dont use excuses & like Everitt. someone said Deledio is mile ahead of Griffen (PIGS ASS) he is

Melbourne youngsters thier Aboriginal players dont use excuses

Brisbane dont use excuses have won 3 flags went to poo & now rebuilt Daniel Rich dont use any excuses.

Sydney dont use excuses played in GF's won a flag & rebuild with no problems

Hawthorn dont use excuses & have won a flag & it was said we had the better list

West Coast are rebuilding

Collingwood now where do l start, Goldsack Brien, Thomas, Pendlebury, Wellingham, Dick, Nathan Brown, Anthony, Beams, Macaffer,Shaw, Cloke, Toovey, Reid, Wood OMFG l nearly know them better than my own team, have all came in since the last few years & dont use excuses & there players are standout & some tainted as champions.

Now Infamy all these clubs have been to finals & missed out then rebuilt & back in finals & some several times

You know what hurts the most is all these clubs smash us & inflict heavy defeats.  When we win its by the hair on our asses, its more relief than enjoyment cause the stress levels have overtaken us Richmond supporters during the game of UGLY football skills

now l seen Richmond with better stats than the winning side so whats that tell you. overuse or not experienced enough, not using the ball properly ????

l seen young sides pump experienced sides. l seen sides who had less possies but used them better when inside 50,  enough times to win the game as to the other side who had double the inside 50, but put half OOTF which does not show on the stat sheet.

this is what l really think after the above ramble to put it more in light for you about experience


Daniel Rich uses every possession to advantage,  but might have the ball less times than his opponant Jordon McMahon who drops his 5 metres short of his team-mate if its near him at all everytime. The stats show McMahon had more possies so that must mean his the better player ?? l dont think so McMahon would be sniffing Riches farts as his blown away.
 
So now comes the other part who is more experienced McMahon or Daniel Rich ?? you would say McMahon  & you would be wrong
Daniel Rich is a AFL Player.  Jordan McMahon is a lower grade player who is not AFL stardard but Richmond pay him for stuffing what exactly.

Now Ben Nason a SANFL reserves player who played a few senior games & was dropped from the grand final team but was drafted to Richmond off what exactly ??  but is being given senior AFL games ??? why is he more experienced ????   Is he better than Tuck or McMahon, Collins maybe??? is he experienced enough to play AFL before a proven player like Tuck who must be very consistant because he polls well in the B&F but gets treated very bad at Richmond l dont think so. Nason a squirt who turns the ball over also by miskicks like the rest of them under preasure & should never have been drafted at all because l know 20 players who would pull better than him on game day that missed out was was Connerly not picked up his 200+ endurance forward/ruckman but we recruit 70+ kg for league football. now you know my stress & why l wont commit

now Imfamy this is a decussion not a war,  l really like to see everyones views on this
Jack will go for stats no doubt cause his a stats man & has worked for AFL clubs but that dont mean his not going to disagree & l dont know that.
MT beleives in stats also but let still get his opinion

[Infamy]

I'm not going to respond to every point you've made here because I've got more important things to do and I'd be here all day.

I will point out however, that I've actually proved your point that experience doesn't mean everything by including our game against Carlton in Round 1 2009. We were far older and more experienced than that Carlton team and it was our worst loss of those examples provided.

That being said, some of your cherry picked examples of comparing players are ridiculous. You won't find anyone here who wants McMahon in the team, in fact most would have liked to see him paid out and delisted last year. So stop harping on about it, we didn't want it at the time, we were proved right and we can't do anything about it. Comparing him to a player like Daniel Rich is just stupid and pointless.

Most of your other examples are mature aged recruits and #1 (or at least Top 5) picks, which are the exceptiopn, not the norm
A week ago, Melbourne looked hopeless against an undermanned Hawthorn, yet have a good game against Collingwood and are now an example of how to do it? They've been tanking for the last 3 years now, played under the same coach for what is now their 3rd season. They didn't just turn over 1/3 of their list in the last draft either.

All the clubs you list had strong bases to rebuild from. We had nothing, we had to build the foundations.

[Penelope]

No Infamy, we still have to build the foundations. 

[Infamy]

No Infamy, we still have to build the foundations. 

Well lets consider them a work in progress
Remember no one rated the kids Hawthorn had when Clarkson arrived, Hodge was a gun but rarely 100% fit.
It was those kids already on the list that won the Hawks the flag

[Tigermonk]

I'm not going to respond to every point you've made here because I've got more important things to do and I'd be here all day.

Typical response from you Imfamy l should have known better

I will point out however, that I've actually proved your point that experience doesn't mean everything by including our game against Carlton in Round 1 2009. We were far older and more experienced than that Carlton team and it was our worst loss of those examples provided.

is that so my memory was that most of our older players were recovering from injuries from the year before or pre-season & a recovering drug addict 

That being said, some of your cherry picked examples of comparing players are ridiculous. You won't find anyone here who wants McMahon in the team, in fact most would have liked to see him paid out and delisted last year. So stop harping on about it, we didn't want it at the time, we were proved right and we can't do anything about it. Comparing him to a player like Daniel Rich is just stupid and pointless.

Yes there is  Richmond wants him cause they kept him duh  l compared him to a kid in a side rebuilding who in his 1st year Daniel Rich that runs rings around him, including minding his opponant, skill, kicking. He uses less stats & does more damage  a mere lad compared to a 100+ gamer. Just to show how stupid the club is in keeping him cause his worthless. A club should pay poo out like that & put another youngster like Connerly delisted off Fremantle Rookie list in his place & try do something with a 200+ cm player like make him a forward, or even draft the TAC B&F player not a reserves SANFL player. 

Most of your other examples are mature aged recruits and #1 (or at least Top 5) picks, which are the exceptiopn, not the norm

Most of my other examples are players who do alot more for thier sides than our #1 & #4 pick in Deledio & Tambling so if you think you can build a team around them 2 then you are deluded. But all them players l picked were drafted after them & play better football than our bunch try answer that 
Dale Thomas hurts sides, there small players & forwards are more advanced then Rewoldt lol they kick goals

A week ago, Melbourne looked hopeless against an undermanned Hawthorn, yet have a good game against Collingwood and are now an example of how to do it? They've been tanking for the last 3 years now, played under the same coach for what is now their 3rd season. They didn't just turn over 1/3 of their list in the last draft either.

Melbourne played very nice football & always push Collingwood in games but when we play Collingwood they make us look like a VFL side even after we smash them in the 1st half they comeback. Most of our players have played under the one coach for 5 years & gone backwards & its not the coaches fault, its the players for losing thier basic skill level the most important one of HOW TO KICK A FOOTBALL that you learn at AUSKICK hahaha stop using excuses,  if you cant hit a target you aint poo in football.

All the clubs you list had strong bases to rebuild from. We had nothing, we had to build the foundations.

No they are all clubs who have rebuilt,  some over again & some have had success  Your in full denial Imfamy & thats exactly why they send you renewal in the first batch cause they know your a sucker to fork out for suburban league football

We had the players to build around but who's fault is that

Bulldogs, Carlton, Hawthorn, Brisbane, Melbourne Adelaide, West Coast, Kangaroos, Teams that you cannot be in denial, all been down where we have in the last 10 seasons, but Richmond is the only club that cant get it right & its been 30 years now

[the_boy_jake]

I would be more interested in %'s in games than margins here. If you are only kicking 40-50 points you aren't going to win games.

Nonetheless, I think it is difficult to analyse where we are going with just stats. I'd say supporters want to see in no particular order:

1. Some sort of game plan developing. More defensive skills & pressure from individuals but overall a balanced defensive and attacking game.
2. Individual kicking skills improving. Simple things like chest marks being taken.
3. 100% effort every week from players and otherwise players being chopped regardless of status. Accountability.
4. Improved communication and understanding - shows players are becoming comfortable footballers. Shepherding, less of two players competing for the same loose pill, one tall marking the other blocking etc
5. More competitive on the scoreboard

On these I think 1 is not being demonstrated and slightly worrying. 2 is not being demonstrated and is also a worry but am hopeful will get better. 3. Is pretty good. 4. Is I think where we can make the biggest improvement in short time - several times when we had the Bulldogs under pressure I think we turned 2-on-1 and 3-on-2 situations in dangerous positions to their advantage by two of our players not communicating. 5. Is gonna take some time.

[Penelope]

Regarding kicking skills, there was one thing that stood out to me in the games that i saw over the last fortnight.
It seems that many Richmond players simply don't know how to kick to their teammates advantage, especially compared to other sides. I'm talking about basic decision making here - If your forward is caught behind, you kick slighltlyover the contest, if your man is to the right of his opponent you kick to his right, etc. Some of the really good footballers about will even kick to where their teammate should be rather than where he is, if he is not in the right position, thus making him go to the ball.

One of the first pre-season training reports on here even mentioned how gilligan was the only one who could kick to the right spot to advantage his teammate. That is a worry

Hardwick has said that you can't improve kicking skills too much but you can improve decision making. Gee I hope he's right.

[HD]

Regarding kicking skills, there was one thing that stood out to me in the games that i saw over the last fortnight.
It seems that many Richmond players simply don't know how to kick to their teammates advantage, especially compared to other sides. I'm talking about basic decision making here - If your forward is caught behind, you kick slighltlyover the contest, if your man is to the right of his opponent you kick to his right, etc. Some of the really good footballers about will even kick to where their teammate should be rather than where he is, if he is not in the right position, thus making him go to the ball.

One of the first pre-season training reports on here even mentioned how gilligan was the only one who could kick to the right spot to advantage his teammate. That is a worry

Hardwick has said that you can't improve kicking skills too much but you can improve decision making. Gee I hope he's right.

Agree completely al - we seem to simply lob the ball high and right on top of the player instead low, fast and out to his advantage (be that to the right, left, in front or over the back). Opposition players see the kick coming a mile away and consistently have the easiest of spoiling opportunities.