Tigers' picks no match for Dogs: Sheahan (Herald-Sun)

[Infamy]

Mark Graham helped Thursty with defensive work to no end...In an article last year Thursty said he still speaks to Graham about defence.  So there was benefit there...plus Graham cost the club next to nothing....

Kingsley...again cost the club next to nothing - a psd-...experiment that failed...so what..

No he said Gaspar was his mentor and still works with him.

Kent was a great mentor at Coburg.

Graham was also a mentor and also protected our young kpps from being thrown to the wolves by having some bigger bodies to play there. Of all the recycled players we've taken from the draft in Wallace's tenure, Graham would be probably the least one I have a problem with. He was a good player for us and helped us develop our kids. He was gone a year later and a new kid took his spot, so only 12 months delay on getting a kid into the side.

The 2004 draft was pretty much a bust outside of the first 5 picks anyway.

[julzqld]

Yep Mark Graham was a good choice. 

[Con65]

Apolgies, Thursfield said this about Gas and Mark Graham:

”Definitely Darren Gaspar when he was here a huge influence, we got on really well and he taught me everything,” Thursfield said.

“He’d be the one I’ve learned the most of, and I still keep in touch with him.”

“Another one in my first year was Mark Graham, who came over from Hawthorn. He was only there for one year, but he taught me a hell of a lot, and it’s those two who I’ve mainly tried to play like.”

See: http://www.richmondfc.com.au/News/NewsArticle/TabId/6301/default.aspx?newsId=57638

Definately no loss in Mark Graham coming to the club.

[FooffooValve]

Ummm...sorry but that is not right.  Hawthorn have consistently picked up an "older" player for a number of years now...perhaps the 2008 draft was the exception for them.

In 2002 they recruited P. Everitt who cost them picks 6 and 22.  Kinglsey Hunter cost them pick 35.  They traded D. Chick to West Coast for pick 8 and got Luke Brennan who was gone by the end of the 2006 season from Hawthorn.

In 2003 they traded for Simon Beaumont from Carlton...he lasted 2 years and retired after 27 games...He had played 152 games with Carlton beforehand.  They also traded for D. Jacobs from Essendon.  He is also retired.  They drafted Harry Miller.  He was delisted after 2 years.

In 2004 - the infamous draft - Bo Nixon was drafted by them from the Pies plus pick 7 for pick 10 and 37.  

In 2005 they picked up B. Guerra in the psd.

In 2006 they re-drafted Josh Thurgood - now delisted.

In 2007 S. Dew.

And like us they have had their misses at the draft table too....ex.  2004 T. Murphy pick 21, 2005 B. Dowler pick 6 , M. Bailey pick 18 B. Muston at pick 22, 2006 M. Thorp pick 6 and G. Moss 56 (re-rookied and only played 3 games - 2 this year only because of all their injuries).

So Hawthorn didnt build from the ground up as you say...sure they picked up some talented kids...and the 2001 draft was bountiful for them - 4 premiership players in one draft.  But each year they tried to add an older player...not dissimilar to the Tigers...and like the Tigers they too have had their misses...

Hang on...

Guerra was 23 when they picked him — hardly in the Graham, Kingsley, Cousins category. Ridiculous to mention him.

Even Dew was only 27.

Even more ridiculous to go back to 2002. I'm sure you wouldn't want me to go back that far for Richmond's recruiting...your "argument" is only weakened by going back that far. It was all of that bad trading and recruiting that Clarkson and Pelchen reacted against when building their young list. And we didn't learn a thing from Hawthorn's actions.

And last time I looked, Murphy is one of their key defenders, and Moss is in the side! Where are Graham, Kingsley, Knobel etc etc? Once again - mentioning Murphy and Moss only strengthens my argument — they are still there and possibly going on to good careers, while we are dropping McMahon, and the others have gone.

This warped argument that getting a Mark Graham or a Kingsley for one year to mentor youngsters is just silly. It is a side benefit of bad recruiting, not the reason you recruit him. If he was so good as a defensive coach, then hire him in that capacity, but don't have him taking up a spot on our precious list just for that.

[Infamy]

Guerra was 23 when they picked him — hardly in the Graham, Kingsley, Cousins category. Ridiculous to mention him.

Even Dew was only 27.

People mention McMahon, so Guerra is fair game

Dew turns 30 this season

[Con65]

Hang on...

Guerra was 23 when they picked him — hardly in the Graham, Kingsley, Cousins category. Ridiculous to mention him.

Even Dew was only 27.

Even more ridiculous to go back to 2002. I'm sure you wouldn't want me to go back that far for Richmond's recruiting...your "argument" is only weakened by going back that far. It was all of that bad trading and recruiting that Clarkson and Pelchen reacted against when building their young list. And we didn't learn a thing from Hawthorn's actions.

And last time I looked, Murphy is one of their key defenders, and Moss is in the side! Where are Graham, Kingsley, Knobel etc etc? Once again - mentioning Murphy and Moss only strengthens my argument — they are still there and possibly going on to good careers, while we are dropping McMahon, and the others have gone.

This warped argument that getting a Mark Graham or a Kingsley for one year to mentor youngsters is just silly. It is a side benefit of bad recruiting, not the reason you recruit him. If he was so good as a defensive coach, then hire him in that capacity, but don't have him taking up a spot on our precious list just for that.

If people raise Patrick Bowden/McMahon (as Infamy has already said) then Brent Guerra is in the same boat....

Graham Kingsley Knob are playing with Everitt Bo Nixon Josh Thurgood Beaumont...

Why is it ridiculous to go back to 2002....?  Because you say so?  You started this debate by saying:
 "Did Hawthorn top up their ground zero list with old players? No. The only player of similar ilk they took was Dew, much later when they saw a gap emerging from the initial rebuild."

When in truth they did.  Pelchen was not at the 2004 draft when they traded for Nixon...he joined the following year...2004 was Buckenara...Hawthorn's original rebuild was back in 2001....they picked up 4 players that draft to go with a couple the year before...and topped up most years since...

They then went back to rebuild in 2004 and again the following year...

Hawthorn also had more senior players with currency than us...and accordingly were able to trade them for better picks...eg Hay

As for Murphy and Moss...well Murphy has only played 33 games in over 4 years...and cant be that much of a key defender (I note he didnt make the GF team)..Moss has only played 3 games...2 this year...when Hawks have been riddled with injuries...

The reality is that every team 'tops' up with older players at some point...You could argue that Hislop and Thomo are 'top ups'- they add to our depth.

What we gave for the ones we picked in earlier years was not much...last spots on list...

[FooffooValve]

I'm saying it is silly to go back to 2002 and point out Hawthorn's mistakes and use that as justification for our mistakes, made 2 or 3 years later.

Clearly Guerra is not in the same boat as P Bowden...because he is still on Hawthorn's list. Surely you can't be arguing that getting Patrick was good recruiting? If you want to go back as far as 2002, why not throw in Blumfield, Fleming, Nicholls, Morrison, Fletcher, Marsh, Weller....it really isn't strenghthening your argument that we are doing the same as most sides...

Look, when we were clearly in need of a total rebuild, Wallace and his team (primarily Miller) made fundamental recruiting mistakes in his first two years. Some of those mistakes included drafting and trading for old players with little to offer. Other mistakes were made in the actual selection of personnel (eg JON, Tambling, Meyer, Pattison, probably Polo, probably others). Personally, I think it is difficult to argue with that.

In short, I reckon we are actually only 3 years into Wallace's 5 year stint, because he largely wasted 2 years at the start. I've also said that we have had some incredibly bad luck — Brown' leg, Polak's tram, Cogs etc.

All these factors have added up to another mediocre team at the moment. Just my opinion.

[mightytiges]

Bo Nixon was the other way around wasn't it. The Hawks gained pick 7 (Lewis) by trading Nixon and pick 10 (Egan) to the Pies.

Anyway I find it ironic that the Bulldogs are used by Mike as a guide to good recruiting when they were the other club who overlooked Franklin despite them crying out for a big key forward for years with everything else in place. In the finals last year they were smashed by the Hawks and lost comfortably (it was 5 goals) to Geelong. It'd be like us claiming to be not far away from the Cats because we got within 20 points.

[Con65]

MT he was traded by the pies to the hawks...see: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-hawthorn-hawks--bo-nixon

I agree...the Franklin debate has never featured in the media with respect to the Doggies...they seemed charmed that way...If he was with the Doggies they might have won the flag last year...with their midfield kicking it to buddy...who knows...?

[mightytiges]

Ah you're right Con. Cheers  .

Just on the weekend you really see the difference in the make up of both sides when looking at when they were drafted and the 23-28 y.o. core. Daylight in terms of quality when comparing the core groups  . Mind you this doesn't excuse lack of effort  .

Half the 44 players were recruited by Wallace out of interest  .

Bulldogs

1993 drafts: Johnson
1999: Eagleton (trade)
2000: Cross, Giansiracusa, Gilbee, Hahn, Hargrave (Murphy was also picked up)
2001: Lake
2002: Minson
2003: Cooney, Boyd (rookie elevation)
------------
2004: Griffen, Tiller, Williams
2005: Addison, Higgins, Morris (rookie elevation)
2006: Hill, Akermanis (trade)
2007: Ward, Hudson (trade)


32 y.o.: Johnson, Akermanis
30: Eagleton, Hudson
-------------
27: Giansiracusa, Gilbee, Hahn, Hargrave, Lake
26: Boyd, Cross, Morris
24: Minson
23: Cooney
--------------
22: Griffen, Tiller, Williams, Picken
21: Addison, Higgins
20: Hill
19: Ward

Richmond

1992: Richo (F/S)
1995: Bowden (F/S)
2000: Newman
2002: Schulz
2003: Jackson, Tuck, Brown (trade)
------------------------
2004: Deledio, Tambling, Polo, McGuane, Moore (rookie elevation), Simmonds (trade)
2005: White, Foley (rookie elevation)
2006: Riewoldt, Edwards
2007: Rance, King (rookie elevation), Graham (rookie elevation), Morton (trade)
2008: Hislop (trade)


34: Richo
31: Brown
30: Bowden, Simmonds
---------------
27: Tuck
26: Newman
25: Moore, King
24: Schulz
23: Foley
--------------
22: Tambling, Jackson, McGuane, Polo, White, Graham, Morton
21: Deledio
20: Edwards, Riewoldt, Hislop
19: Rance