Author Topic: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft  (Read 8296 times)

Offline Penelope

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2009, 11:03:06 PM »
The way I see it, is when trying to rebuild from where we are at into a competitive side, every player you add to the list should offer something that will be potentially long term. That something, though does not necessarily have to be them still being in the side in four years time.( or whatever timeframe you think until finals are a possibility)

Young untried draftees speak for themselves, as do proven top line footballers looking for a change of club, with a number of years still in them.

Recycled players can offer a number of things.

They could be young players with ability that could not crack it at another club, but you believe you can identify and rectify what the problem was, giving you long term players.

They could be a middle aged player who can hold their own and fill a deficiency for a few years until the young players being developed can step up and take over. Not all players develop at the same rate. Some will be ready to play AFl at 18 while others may take longer. This is probably more relevant to key position players than mids.

They could be middle aged or even older players who can bring something besides their ability to get the pill and use it. This something is leadership. Cousins falls into this catagory

What you don't want is players that can't offer something you don't already have. Run of the mill players are a dime a dozen. They are not the foundations of a good side but make up the numbers. There are plenty of players who can hold a spot in a good side, but put them into a poor side expecting them to help take you to the next level and it soon becomes apparent that they are out their depth. You definitely don't want middle aged players that have a serious deficiency in their game.

The only player on the market I can see that could offer any long term benefit to Richmond is Bradshaw, but he wants three years and I believe in the third year he would be in the way. Two years of him at the club would offer, as Paul Roos puts it "mentoring" (he referred to Smith here), of which the benefits linger after he has gone. Bradshaw at Richmond for two years (or three) though is not going to happen, so there no point getting excited about it, either way.

The only other possibility I can see is Ball. I'm not convinced he has any real long term benefit, but I wont say he hasn't either ( I know others will though :) ) Again that's probably a moot point, because even if he goes into the draft, I cant see Melbourne overlooking him.

All the other names I have seen, to me any way, have either serious injury concerns, or just would not bring any thing that would be of long term benefit to the club.

WA tiger i agree, you do need experience, but it must be, as was said in another thread, "good" experience. There is no point in taking experience for experience sake, they must have leadership as well. Most of these guys are hacks, and would bring nothing to the club, except to be scapegoats for poor performances.

By the same token, if there was a player who could bring leadership to a developing group, you would amiss to overlook him just because he wont be there when you expect the side to be at a stage to be playing finals. If he helped you get to that stage and helped in the development of the young players, so they can take over from him, then he has served his purpose. I just cant see this type being available.



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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2009, 11:15:09 PM »
No point bringing in some temporary older players who are only good enough to carry us up to ninth and a late poor first pick which hinders our rebuild.

It's the experience to teach the youngsters, it's not about carrying us up the ladder, we have tried that for too long. Two more players would not have hurt or will not hurt, pick 70 whatever and the other late one could be used. Lets face it our rebuild is shot to pieces somewhat after this years draft as we all know the G17 and Syd West teams are going to pilfer every youngster available.
The rebuild will be shot if we finish 9th-11th on the back of older players who will be gone in 3 to 4 years time and we end up with a first pick in the mid-teens next year. Compare that to the bottom 2 sides who will still end up with top 6 pick. As painful as it sounds we need to bottom out and go with youth.

Are you going to tell me that two experienced players amongst all that youth is going to matter to our final selections in the draft?? If you brought a few hundred games of experience to the club with known players to teach our youth it would save us time in the long run and the youth will come out better equiped. At least with two experienced players we know what we have and who to put them with to teach or we could end up with another Putt, Patto, JON, the list just goes on. Remember you can't buy experience no matter what picks you have, but you can gain experience through experience!!

Look at the finalists, their teams werea mixture, NOT all youth, this fantasy of building some super team from youth is not realistic, at some stage we NEED experience, be it this PSD/trade week or next years PSD/ trade week WE NEED some experience.
It will matter as they won't be part of the future with the young guys when latter matures as a group. These average experienced players in their mid-late 20s are then just taking up temporary spots in the side that will need to be replaced by young guys not in 2010 where it doesn't matter but in 2013 when we want to be playing finals and even pushing top 4. It also hurts us at this time of the year when propping up a mediocre side leads to poorer draft picks in the mid-teens and hence hinders our rebuild as we miss out the best classy and quality youngsters in the top half-dozen or so.

The young guys will gain experience as they play more games together. It's not as though we'll have a team full of inexperienced teenagers next year. We'll have 25 guys on our list 21 y.o. and over. We'll struggle to win games as we are younger and less experienced compared to top 8 sides but we still should be competitive against most sides.
 
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Offline Infamy

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2009, 11:16:51 PM »
Are you going to tell me that two experienced players amongst all that youth is going to matter to our final selections in the draft??
Bringing in two experienced players means two less kids on the list
Two less opportunities to find another 200+ game player

Offline WA Tiger

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2009, 01:51:17 AM »
Ok it's obvious we have differing views on experience teaching youth and sustainability, so I will just sit back and watch now over the next 5 years. Unfortunately the only good experience that will be accepted by many on this forum will be the likes of Judd, J Brown, Kerr and the likes, but guess what that will never happen.

We are going to look pretty pathetic when even the GC and WS teams are selecting experienced players while trading their draft picks away. I would not even be surprised if bot the new teams have flags before us and in all honesty we have been rebuilding since 96!!

I understand the rebuilding and what needs to be done but many of you that answer my posts, do you understand what I am saying or do you have the rebuilding/youth blinkers on?
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Offline Infamy

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2009, 02:00:08 AM »
GC17 & GWS can't field a team on 18 year olds
We will have a nucleus of 21-24 year olds to build our side around as well as some older guys
There is no need for more experience

Offline WA Tiger

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2009, 02:09:38 AM »
GC17 & GWS can't field a team on 18 year olds
We will have a nucleus of 21-24 year olds to build our side around as well as some older guys
There is no need for more experience

There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????
DIMMA - You will be held ACCOUNTABLE...

“We are really excited about what we have brought in. We have got great depth of players that can take us where we need to go. We are just putting some cream on the top at the moment,” he said.

"Rucks:
Shaun Hampson is the No.1 man"

Offline Mr Magic

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2009, 03:56:41 AM »
There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????

Agreed.

Young does not = Good.

If you have the opportunity to pick a genuinely good player up in the PSD for basically nix, then you pick them up.
Otherwise why did we bother with Cousins last year, yet everyone's been raving about what a positive influence he's had on the kids??

Offline Infamy

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2009, 08:47:27 AM »
GC17 & GWS can't field a team on 18 year olds
We will have a nucleus of 21-24 year olds to build our side around as well as some older guys
There is no need for more experience

There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????
Smith I am far more concerned about as everyone knows that his issues are his ankles, same injury all the time
Thorp is a bit different as he's had hip, groin and broken foot in only 3 seasons, Smith was drafted 2 years earlier and still can't get on the park
Smith is also more of a flanker, a midfielder who's grown to kpp size. Thorp is a CHF, a much harder position to fill

Not saying Thorp is a certainty, but Hardwick would know Thorp and how bad his injuries were, if we tried to trade for him as rumoured then he can't possibly have warned us away from him.

Offline Smokey

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2009, 09:41:37 AM »
Ok it's obvious we have differing views on experience teaching youth and sustainability, so I will just sit back and watch now over the next 5 years. Unfortunately the only good experience that will be accepted by many on this forum will be the likes of Judd, J Brown, Kerr and the likes, but guess what that will never happen.

We are going to look pretty pathetic when even the GC and WS teams are selecting experienced players while trading their draft picks away. I would not even be surprised if bot the new teams have flags before us and in all honesty we have been rebuilding since 96!!

I understand the rebuilding and what needs to be done but many of you that answer my posts, do you understand what I am saying or do you have the rebuilding/youth blinkers on?

Its a good debate WAT and an interesting one and I certainly haven't got my youth blinkers on.

I was against getting Cousins last year because of a fear he could have a negative impact on our kids.  Taking a risk with a drug addict is always going to be prone to failure and disappointment regardless of the circumstances (in sport or elsewhere).  To Cousins great credit he has so far shown a good deal of intent and courage in facing his problem and moving forward with his life - and our kids have been the beneficiaries of that because he has bucketloads of 'good' experience - coming from a bottom team to playing and winning premierships, Brownlow medal, 4 time club champion, club captain etc.  So in that respect I am very open-minded about the benefits of bringing experience to the club.

This year there have been 2 names thrown about that could potentially bring 'good' experience - Bradshaw and Ball.  Neither of these have the leadership qualities of a Cousins, Ball has injury and physical limitation concerns while Bradshaw wanted a 3 year contract.  So to use up picks in trade week for either did not present a ROI worth the risk - neither of them would bring anywhere near the package of leadership potential that Cousins did and it's that leadership that we need more than any other single thing at our club.  Add to that the fact (as Infamy highlighted) that many of our kids are now approaching 21/22/23 years of age and already have 50-100 games under their belts - that is significant experience right there so to go out and use draft picks to chase more experience for experience sake to me is a wasted folly - they need leadership ('good' experience).

Now to counter that, if these players nominated for the PSD (not the National Draft where all the best kids will be) and if we had not been able to fill our list with kids we thought showed enough potential to take them in the National Draft then I would re-consider these 2 players above.  Why?  Because they are still good players, they still have some measure of 'good' experience to offer and we would not be robbing Peter to pay Paul by taking them over kids with some potential.  Now that leaves us with the rest of the experienced players.  I would not consider McPhee or Welsh under any circumstances because they just don't bring enough to the table to justify it - I would rather take a punt on a long term project kid.  I would consider Thorp because he certainly has ability and there may be underlying factors such as injury and attitude that may not be around at a different club in the future (and we have a leg-up on inside info because of Hardwick).  I would not consider Smith because he has been too injury-prone for too many years now to justify any sort of risk in taking him.  Please note here I said the word "consider" - I am not saying we should take any of them but some of them we should "consider".

So what I am saying in summary is that I am trying to be as open-minded as I can about the circumstances of each available option and how that option can best serve the needs of our club.  And probably where I differ from many others is that I have more faith in the potential of our current list than many others - I believe they have a good level of core ability, have an inordinate level of match experience and will display more rapid 'improvement' under a coaching regime that is able to get the message, game-plan and culture right.  Whether that regime is currently in place only time will tell but I wouldn't be a Richmond supporter if I didn't have faith!

 :gotigers

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2009, 01:34:51 PM »
GC17 & GWS can't field a team on 18 year olds
We will have a nucleus of 21-24 year olds to build our side around as well as some older guys
There is no need for more experience

There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????

Smith was rated top 10 / 5 in the 2004 draft
Thorp #6 - 2006

both have injurys but they also have potential.

If we were to draft them and they get on the park and play well then the up side of this middle and long term is far, far greater for the Richmond football club than getting late 20's hacks like McPhee and Welsh. 

I would rather a young, highly rated, injury prone kid with the abilty to be good long term players than discard list cloggers from rubbish teams like Essendon.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2009, 01:37:06 PM »
There is no need for more experience apparently I get that, but alot of people (not you) seem to be ok with selecting Jess Smith and Thorpe who....... oh yes are young....... but riddled with injury, go figure. Perhaps we need more injury prone players?????????

Agreed.

Young does not = Good.

If you have the opportunity to pick a genuinely good player up in the PSD for basically nix, then you pick them up.
Otherwise why did we bother with Cousins last year, yet everyone's been raving about what a positive influence he's had on the kids??

Ben Cousins is one of the best players in the last 15 years of Australian football.

Last year he showed his value as a gun. When he has another pre-season he will get even better.

Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee are not in the same class. Not even close.

Offline mat073

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2009, 02:21:12 PM »
Ok it's obvious we have differing views on experience teaching youth and sustainability, so I will just sit back and watch now over the next 5 years. Unfortunately the only good experience that will be accepted by many on this forum will be the likes of Judd, J Brown, Kerr and the likes, but guess what that will never happen.

We are going to look pretty pathetic when even the GC and WS teams are selecting experienced players while trading their draft picks away. I would not even be surprised if bot the new teams have flags before us and in all honesty we have been rebuilding since 96!!

I understand the rebuilding and what needs to be done but many of you that answer my posts, do you understand what I am saying or do you have the rebuilding/youth blinkers on?

I dont think you are correct in saying the club has been rebuilding since 1996 WAT.
I believe 96 to 02 was an era in which the tigers continuously over rated its list.This led to the recruitment of plenty of "experienced" players.
Some gave good service for only a year or two (leon Cameron) most were massive flops.
Year after year of "topping up" with experience  is one of the main reasons we find ourselves in this massive hole.
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Offline Penelope

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2009, 04:51:34 PM »
So what I am saying in summary is that I am trying to be as open-minded as I can about the circumstances of each available option and how that option can best serve the needs of our club.  And probably where I differ from many others is that I have more faith in the potential of our current list than many others - I believe they have a good level of core ability, have an inordinate level of match experience and will display more rapid 'improvement' under a coaching regime that is able to get the message, game-plan and culture right.  Whether that regime is currently in place only time will tell but I wouldn't be a Richmond supporter if I didn't have faith!

 :gotigers

That really is the bottom line isn't it. Appraising each and every circumstance on it's merits and not making decisions based on some pre-conceived idea (ideal?). You have much more chance of getting it right then.

It's a good point about the list. This time last year many in the football world were talking up Richmond as potential finalists. Cousins was going to be cream added to our list to help ensure that. So twleve months ago many saw our list as in the best 8, now its the worst? How did that happen? The list didn't change in that period. There is a core there and as you say they just need the right guidance and hopefully the new coaching staff can deliver that. :pray :pray :pray

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Offline Francois Jackson

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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2009, 06:52:01 PM »
Ok it's obvious we have differing views on experience teaching youth and sustainability, so I will just sit back and watch now over the next 5 years. Unfortunately the only good experience that will be accepted by many on this forum will be the likes of Judd, J Brown, Kerr and the likes, but guess what that will never happen.

We are going to look pretty pathetic when even the GC and WS teams are selecting experienced players while trading their draft picks away. I would not even be surprised if bot the new teams have flags before us and in all honesty we have been rebuilding since 96!!

I understand the rebuilding and what needs to be done but many of you that answer my posts, do you understand what I am saying or do you have the rebuilding/youth blinkers on?

I dont think you are correct in saying the club has been rebuilding since 1996 WAT.
I believe 96 to 02 was an era in which the tigers continuously over rated its list.This led to the recruitment of plenty of "experienced" players.
Some gave good service for only a year or two (leon Cameron) most were massive flops.
Year after year of "topping up" with experience  is one of the main reasons we find ourselves in this massive hole.

correct Matt
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Re: Andrew Welsh, Adam McPhee may roll dice in draft
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2009, 07:14:03 PM »


I dont think you are correct in saying the club has been rebuilding since 1996 WAT.
I believe 96 to 02 was an era in which the tigers continuously over rated its list.This led to the recruitment of plenty of "experienced" players.
Some gave good service for only a year or two (leon Cameron) most were massive flops.
Year after year of "topping up" with experience  is one of the main reasons we find ourselves in this massive hole.

correct Matt
[/quote]

You are preaching to the converted boys :thumbsup