Author Topic: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)  (Read 10293 times)

jackstar is back again

  • Guest
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2010, 12:01:35 PM »
People with a gambling addiction "choose" to do so no more than an alcoholic, a person suffering a compulsive disorder or even someone suffering depression. They all have their roots in the brain chemistry not being right and are psychological disorders.

Al, how can you possibly associate or even compare (if that is what you are implying) alcholism and gambling with depression or compulsive disorders??? Alcohlics and gamblers choose to take that first drink or make that first bet and they both go back. Depression and compulsion is with you from birth and in your chemistry as you say.

Incorrect.

Offline Smokey

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9279
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2010, 02:11:37 PM »
People with a gambling addiction "choose" to do so no more than an alcoholic, a person suffering a compulsive disorder or even someone suffering depression. They all have their roots in the brain chemistry not being right and are psychological disorders.

Al, how can you possibly associate or even compare (if that is what you are implying) alcholism and gambling with depression or compulsive disorders??? Alcohlics and gamblers choose to take that first drink or make that first bet and they both go back. Depression and compulsion is with you from birth and in your chemistry as you say.

Disagree WAT.  The potential for all of these afflictions are with you from birth.  It is your life experiences that help shape the way you handle and deal with this potential and in that way there is no difference between a chemical addiction or a psychological disorder.  You are no more or less likely to become an alcoholic by taking that first drink than you are suffering depression by making choices in life.  As WP said, the key is in taking responsibility for your own actions, and then acknowledging and acting on your particular circumstances.  Anyone can become a problem gambler, anyone can become an alcoholic, and anyone can become compulsive or depressed.

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2010, 02:50:07 PM »
People with a gambling addiction "choose" to do so no more than an alcoholic, a person suffering a compulsive disorder or even someone suffering depression. They all have their roots in the brain chemistry not being right and are psychological disorders.

Al, how can you possibly associate or even compare (if that is what you are implying) alcholism and gambling with depression or compulsive disorders??? Alcohlics and gamblers choose to take that first drink or make that first bet and they both go back. Depression and compulsion is with you from birth and in your chemistry as you say.

Disagree WAT.  The potential for all of these afflictions are with you from birth.  It is your life experiences that help shape the way you handle and deal with this potential and in that way there is no difference between a chemical addiction or a psychological disorder.  You are no more or less likely to become an alcoholic by taking that first drink than you are suffering depression by making choices in life.  As WP said, the key is in taking responsibility for your own actions, and then acknowledging and acting on your particular circumstances.  Anyone can become a problem gambler, anyone can become an alcoholic, and anyone can become compulsive or depressed.

True to a certain point smokey, but some people do have a greater disposition to these things than others, whether that is genetic, environmental or a combination is a whole other debate.

All of these problems stem from the brain. Even the hard nosed old school thought that people suffering such afflictions were weak, is till an acknowledgment that the problem lies within the brain. I have even had people try to convince me that someone suffering depression is merely week of mind.

There is though an overlap between most of these problems in terms of chemical imbalances and brain patterns.

In terms of how the brain functions we are generally still in the dark ages. Someone suffers from depression or alcoholism they go to a shrink or a counselor. Yet if someones liver starts to play up they will be sent to a medical doctor. The brain is still regarded as some magical thing that we can control, rather what it is, another organ of the body that like all the others requires correct nutrition and can be harmed by toxic substances.

Most people suffering from addictions and depression lack either the ability to produce dopamine (or similar hormones) or the ability for the dopamine to work as it should. Recent research has shown that it is perhaps not the actual consuming of these substances or participating in activities such as gambling (or even sex) that drives these people, but more the anticipation there of, that causes certain activity whithin the brain that make them feel good.

All any person addicted to something is trying to do is to feel good, which is what dopamine does - just not for them . While most us enjoy the 'buzz' we get out of a beer, when having a punt or whatever else floats your boat, most addicts don't so much get a buzz, but just get to feel normal or content.



“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline Smokey

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9279
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2010, 04:26:32 PM »

Disagree WAT.  The potential for all of these afflictions are with you from birth.  It is your life experiences that help shape the way you handle and deal with this potential and in that way there is no difference between a chemical addiction or a psychological disorder.  You are no more or less likely to become an alcoholic by taking that first drink than you are suffering depression by making choices in life.  As WP said, the key is in taking responsibility for your own actions, and then acknowledging and acting on your particular circumstances.  Anyone can become a problem gambler, anyone can become an alcoholic, and anyone can become compulsive or depressed.

True to a certain point smokey, but some people do have a greater disposition to these things than others, whether that is genetic, environmental or a combination is a whole other debate.

All of these problems stem from the brain. Even the hard nosed old school thought that people suffering such afflictions were weak, is till an acknowledgment that the problem lies within the brain. I have even had people try to convince me that someone suffering depression is merely week of mind.

There is though an overlap between most of these problems in terms of chemical imbalances and brain patterns.

In terms of how the brain functions we are generally still in the dark ages. Someone suffers from depression or alcoholism they go to a shrink or a counselor. Yet if someones liver starts to play up they will be sent to a medical doctor. The brain is still regarded as some magical thing that we can control, rather what it is, another organ of the body that like all the others requires correct nutrition and can be harmed by toxic substances.

Most people suffering from addictions and depression lack either the ability to produce dopamine (or similar hormones) or the ability for the dopamine to work as it should. Recent research has shown that it is perhaps not the actual consuming of these substances or participating in activities such as gambling (or even sex) that drives these people, but more the anticipation there of, that causes certain activity whithin the brain that make them feel good.

All any person addicted to something is trying to do is to feel good, which is what dopamine does - just not for them . While most us enjoy the 'buzz' we get out of a beer, when having a punt or whatever else floats your boat, most addicts don't so much get a buzz, but just get to feel normal or content.


Yeah, I think we're saying much the same thing Al.  We all have the chemicals and various levels of pre-disposition to malfunction - it's just the way that you choose to handle it that makes the difference.  Some seek help before (or after) an addiction or condition is an issue, others mask it, others surrender to it but at the end of the day you are responsible for your actions in the way that you deal with the situation presented.

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2010, 04:52:04 PM »
For sure Smokey, the first step is to recognise there is a problem and then want to do something about it. I've got a suspicion that it may be easier said than done.

I know someone who did something they really regretted and believed that it was that act that sent them spiraling down into depression. It was only later that they realised that they already were suffering depression and now believes it was because of this state of mind that they did what they did.

Maybe this caused them to drop to new lows and finally realise there was a problem, I don't know. One night after a few beers they admitted to me that sometimes they would think there was a problem, but quickly push the thought aside. It was only after they started to get on top of things that they really appreciated where they had actually been. Was an interesting insight.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline WilliamPowell

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 41260
  • Better to ignore a fool than encourage one
    • One Eyed Richmond
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2010, 06:04:30 PM »
well explain Betfair WP!
The source of real evil

So Betfair is the real cause of all the problems? Just Betfair?

Look I will be honest I don't know the first thing about Betfair.

Why?  Because I make the CHOICE not to bet or gamble on anything other than Tattslotto so Betfair is of no interest to me

Now I know from your posts Jack you bet and you make that choice. And you make the choice when to say enough is enough and stop. It is your choice isn't it?

As I said it's about taking responsibility for your actions - playing the blame game by blaming everyone and everything else is the easy way out
"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

from the song "Don't Walk Away" by Pat Benatar 1988 (Wide Awake In Dreamland)

Offline Smokey

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9279
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2010, 06:12:21 PM »
For sure Smokey, the first step is to recognise there is a problem and then want to do something about it. I've got a suspicion that it may be easier said than done.

I know someone who did something they really regretted and believed that it was that act that sent them spiraling down into depression. It was only later that they realised that they already were suffering depression and now believes it was because of this state of mind that they did what they did.

Maybe this caused them to drop to new lows and finally realise there was a problem, I don't know. One night after a few beers they admitted to me that sometimes they would think there was a problem, but quickly push the thought aside. It was only after they started to get on top of things that they really appreciated where they had actually been. Was an interesting insight.

That thinking is a bit closer to home than I'm happy to acknowledge.  And it is dead right.

FNM

  • Guest
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2010, 06:14:05 PM »
Depression and compulsion is with you from birth and in your chemistry as you say.
I somehow doubt that  ::)

jackstar is back again

  • Guest
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2010, 06:44:53 PM »
well explain Betfair WP!
The source of real evil

So Betfair is the real cause of all the problems? Just Betfair?

Look I will be honest I don't know the first thing about Betfair.

Why?  Because I make the CHOICE not to bet or gamble on anything other than Tattslotto so Betfair is of no interest to me

Now I know from your posts Jack you bet and you make that choice. And you make the choice when to say enough is enough and stop. It is your choice isn't it?

As I said it's about taking responsibility for your actions - playing the blame game by blaming everyone and everything else is the easy way out

I love a bet. I have no issue
I know of people who have taken there own life, lost houses etc.
Betfair is a disgrace.
The corporates are just plain parasites

Ox

  • Guest
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2010, 07:01:06 PM »
I know of people who have taken there own wife, lost pleasures etc.

Offline Infamy

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4426
  • For We're From Tigerland
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2010, 10:34:02 PM »
I love a bet. I have no issue
I know of people who have taken there own life, lost houses etc.
Betfair is a disgrace.
The corporates are just plain parasites
How can you single out Betfair in all this? People lose their house and take their lives over more things and plenty more methods of gambling than just Betfair. Stop blaming the business and look at the people. No one wants to take responsibility for anything any more, its just a blame game.

jackstar is back again

  • Guest
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2010, 10:56:10 PM »
I love a bet. I have no issue
I know of people who have taken there own life, lost houses etc.
Betfair is a disgrace.
The corporates are just plain parasites
How can you single out Betfair in all this? People lose their house and take their lives over more things and plenty more methods of gambling than just Betfair. Stop blaming the business and look at the people. No one wants to take responsibility for anything any more, its just a blame game.

You have no idea pal.
Gambling is a very serious problem in society.
Betfair is the icing on the cake, as it allows dishonest participants to bet on themselves to lose.( lay themselves ) FACT
This is a mine field for the AFL .
Its a mine field for all sports, cricket ,basketball, tennis etc.
Might also add the TAB has been removed from Rod Lavera arena due to issues with gambling in tennis, I wonder why ::)
The AFL wants it both ways, are extremely nervous about gambling issues but are happy to take the money the Corporate Bookmakers offer through sponsorships, work that out!
can tell you that the AFLPA has been over the top in the last 4 weeks about gambling.
Also of interest that most Corporate Bookmakers are in Darwin due to state restraints and tax breaks etc.

Offline Penelope

  • Internet nuffer and sooky jellyfish
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12777
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2010, 11:18:55 PM »
What you say about betfair is true. Gupta must love betfair. But betfair is not the cause of anyone's addiction. Its just an outlet, as is the TAB, the casino,grog, drugs, sex, shopping, cleaning.

Corporate bookmakers are not good for the racing industry, they can probably still make lots of money without it , without havingh to give anything back.

But they are not to blame for people addictions. It would still happen just through another outlet.
 Blame is the the problem. It's emotional and accusatory. To many there is no difference between blame/excuse and reason, but once you blur that line you will never see the forest for the trees.

The moralities of betfair and corporate bookmakers are a different issue to the cause of addiction.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline Owl

  • Magnificent Bastard
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 7012
  • Bring me TWO chickens
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2010, 08:46:00 AM »
Well, I have to say, I doff my cap to Jackstar on calling a spade a spade on this one.  YOu can't polish a turd.
Gambling is a big source of misery for the desperate trying to find a way out, or a trap for those thinking they can make a quid out of it.  Not everyone has iron willpower and epic wisdom we all profess to have here, there are a lots of folks with miserable situations that are made worse through gambling, and, its not just their lives we are talking about, were talking about their kids, partners and so forth.  I can quote stuff that would make your hair stand on end and im sure others have anecdotes too.  So im not a big fan, its like taking the proceeds of other misery merchants like drug dealers in my book, except this is state sanctioned.  Just my opinion not judging anyone else on their opinion.
Lots of people name their swords......

Offline Smokey

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9279
Re: Tabcorp joins Tigers’ Community (RFC)
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2010, 09:23:15 AM »
Well, I have to say, I doff my cap to Jackstar on calling a spade a spade on this one.  YOu can't polish a turd.
Gambling is a big source of misery for the desperate trying to find a way out, or a trap for those thinking they can make a quid out of it.  Not everyone has iron willpower and epic wisdom we all profess to have here, there are a lots of folks with miserable situations that are made worse through gambling, and, its not just their lives we are talking about, were talking about their kids, partners and so forth.  I can quote stuff that would make your hair stand on end and im sure others have anecdotes too.  So im not a big fan, its like taking the proceeds of other misery merchants like drug dealers in my book, except this is state sanctioned.  Just my opinion not judging anyone else on their opinion.

I'm not going to disagree with your opinion on gambling Owl but I think you missed Jack's point - he wasn't trying to blame or attack gambling, rather accusing the corporate bookmakers of creating dishonesty and bleeding sport of much money.  What you say about gambling is relevant for any kind of addiction or compulsion and that is really what the rest of us have been debating.  And you might find that the iron willpower and epic wisdom of some of us that you refer to are actually personal lessons learned in life the hard way - in many cases in the hardest possible way.