Ranking Our Champions

[bluehouse]

Roach was probably the most accurate prodigious kick I ever saw - any club ( perhaps Rocca dare I say it from a set shot ) Richo is one of the greatest contested markers of the modern era ( includes Carey in his prime ) Roach was thrown into the ruck later in his career as our club began to slide - so his golden period is really from 1978 - 1984 - Richo has never really had a team that to deliver the ball well to him, although I agree he does lead to the flanks too often. A million injuries haven't helped but he's still capable of destroying an opposition. Still a champion in my opinion and surpasses Roach for longevity and playing in an inferior club during his career.

[HKTiger]

Read this thread with interest, thought I'd register and comment.

If you want to understand how good Stewart and Hart were, get the prelimanry final tape of 1973 and watch that game.  Hart came off the bench at half time on one leg.  He and Stewart got Richmond back from 6 goals down to win.

Royce Hart was similar in size build to Wayne Campbell and dominated CHF in an era where any player that was too good copped significant illegal treatment.  If Hart played today he would dominate again.  I will struggle to describe how good he was, but suffiice to say, every week when he played he did at least one "special"(read freakish) thing.  When Royce was playing Richmond always had a chance to win.  And he often won games on his own account.

He copped so much treatment that he missed at least one third of the games that he could have played in and played most probably half his games carrying some form of injury.  Often his knees.

Getting back on track and from a RFC perspective.  I never had the pleasure of seeing Captain Blood play so cannot judge him.  But for mine Stewart, Hart and Bartlett are pretty close, with Stewart (based on his entire career) slightly ahead of Hart and Bartlett a close third.

[mightytiges]

If you want to understand how good Stewart and Hart were, get the prelimanry final tape of 1973 and watch that game.  Hart came off the bench at half time on one leg.  He and Stewart got Richmond back from 6 goals down to win.

Welcome to OER HKT  .

Amazing game that PF similar to the 1970 GF. 6 goals down and we only had kicked something like 4 goals to half time.

Don't you just love the Colliwobbles  .

[1980]

lmfaoooo! Moi, what was Jack Dyer really like?

I'll save my rant on Richo and Knights getting in the TOC before Campbell for another time.

I didn't see much of Roach, but for those who saw him week to week, was he better than Richo? Must have been a sore point with some that Richo made the team of the century and Roach didn't.

It's also interesting to see that Hart was ranked Higher than KB when KB played longer, kicked more goals, dominated finals just as Hart did and won 5 best and fairests to boot.

Given how much time we've spent debating Wayne Campbell's place in RFC history, you've summed it up beautifully.

On Michael Roach, he kicked a 100 goals in a season. Until Richo does that, you cant compare them. And he kicked straight. I was there when he kicked his 100th from the centre circle. Many argue his run-up started at the centre circle. Either way, it went through the middle.

And I'm sure you've seen his mark of the century against the Hawks.

Maybe we can compare Richo with Brian Taylor. Does anyone have stats how many goals BT kicked in his RFC career compared to Richo?

[JohnF]

Pretty similar statistically in terms of goals 1980.

The fat bastard kicked 155 goals in 43 matches, just a little over 3 goals a game.

Richo has kicked 580 goals in 194 games, just a little under 3 goals a game.

Mind you Richo has only spent half his time as a full forward, and as only a part time FF that's a darn good record for someone that can hardly kick.

Just comparing Roach and Richo, how was Roach in facets of his game other than the stock standard lead, mark, goal routine? Richo has been pretty defective in terms of playing to a team plan, having footy nous when he has to win the ball in non marking situations, tackling, his handballing is average, his kick-passing in dicey. Was Roach better in these facets of the game?

[mightytiges]

Maybe we can compare Richo with Brian Taylor. Does anyone have stats how many goals BT kicked in his RFC career compared to Richo?

3.035   Michael Roach   Richmond 1977-89     200 games  607 goals  (1979 - 90, 1980 - 112, 1981 - 86, 1985 - 80, 1986 - 62)

2.990   Matthew Richardson*  Richmond 1993-2004      194  games   580  goals (1994 - 56, 1996 - 91, 1998 - 55, 1999 - 67, 2001 - 59, 2004 - 65)

3.764 (3.605 at RFC)   Brian Taylor   Richmond 1980-84; Collingwood 1985-90   140 (43) games    527 (155) goals (1982 - 71, 1984 - 61, 1985 - 80, 1986 - 100, 1987 - 60, 1988 - 73)
       

[1980]

Pretty similar statistically in terms of goals 1980.

The fat bastard kicked 155 goals in 43 matches, just a little over 3 goals a game.

Richo has kicked 580 goals in 194 games, just a little under 3 goals a game.

Mind you Richo has only spent half his time as a full forward, and as only a part time FF that's a darn good record for someone that can hardly kick.

Just comparing Roach and Richo, how was Roach in facets of his game other than the stock standard lead, mark, goal routine? Richo has been pretty defective in terms of playing to a team plan, having footy nous when he has to win the ball in non marking situations, tackling, his handballing is average, his kick-passing in dicey. Was Roach better in these facets of the game?

You're like a walking almanac pulling stats out all the time.

Roachy didnt need to do much more than lead mark and goal. That was the kind of game footy was back then.

He was a great mark. V solid. They bounce off Richo's chest. But Richo would kill him for contested marks.

Good question would be how a Michael Roach in his prime would do in season 2004. He'd kick more goals than Richo, but I reckon he'd not be the superstar champion he was back then.

There were only 2 numbers you wore on the back of your bogan duffle coat back in those days with all the Richmond badges on the front. No 4, and No 8. I reckon 70% of supporters had the No 8.

How many out there still have these?

[1980]

Read this thread with interest, thought I'd register and comment.

If you want to understand how good Stewart and Hart were, get the prelimanry final tape of 1973 and watch that game.  Hart came off the bench at half time on one leg.  He and Stewart got Richmond back from 6 goals down to win.

Royce Hart was similar in size build to Wayne Campbell and dominated CHF in an era where any player that was too good copped significant illegal treatment.  If Hart played today he would dominate again.  I will struggle to describe how good he was, but suffiice to say, every week when he played he did at least one "special"(read freakish) thing.  When Royce was playing Richmond always had a chance to win.  And he often won games on his own account.

He copped so much treatment that he missed at least one third of the games that he could have played in and played most probably half his games carrying some form of injury.  Often his knees.

Getting back on track and from a RFC perspective.  I never had the pleasure of seeing Captain Blood play so cannot judge him.  But for mine Stewart, Hart and Bartlett are pretty close, with Stewart (based on his entire career) slightly ahead of Hart and Bartlett a close third.

Great post HKT. For the young ones who never saw Royce Hart play, how would you compare him to the Gary Ablett of the late 80s/early 90s?

[1980]

Read this thread with interest, thought I'd register and comment.

If you want to understand how good Stewart and Hart were, get the prelimanry final tape of 1973 and watch that game.  Hart came off the bench at half time on one leg.  He and Stewart got Richmond back from 6 goals down to win.

Royce Hart was similar in size build to Wayne Campbell and dominated CHF in an era where any player that was too good copped significant illegal treatment.  If Hart played today he would dominate again.  I will struggle to describe how good he was, but suffiice to say, every week when he played he did at least one "special"(read freakish) thing.  When Royce was playing Richmond always had a chance to win.  And he often won games on his own account.

He copped so much treatment that he missed at least one third of the games that he could have played in and played most probably half his games carrying some form of injury.  Often his knees.

Getting back on track and from a RFC perspective.  I never had the pleasure of seeing Captain Blood play so cannot judge him.  But for mine Stewart, Hart and Bartlett are pretty close, with Stewart (based on his entire career) slightly ahead of Hart and Bartlett a close third.

Great post HKT. For the young ones that didnt see Royce Hart play, how would you compare him to the Gary Ablett of the late 80s/early 90s?

[HKTiger]

1980,

Great question.

In my opinion Ablett was better.  He was stronger and did the mercurial a little more often.  Ablett could also physically dominate.  Royce never really did that. 

But Royce woudl just do the "inspirational" thing that would lift the entire team.  Often a very big goal, or just a hugely courageous mark.  I'll give one example,  Rich v Carlton at Princes park,  Really cold wet afternoon.  We were down by 27 points (I think around that) at 3/4 time, and against the wind, rain/tide in the last quarter.  Royce took a real strong mark early on on the last quarter against John Goold and kicked a goal.  Swooper kicked a couple and I think Roger Dean kicked one.  We're 3 points or so down, time on, ball gets kicked to the left half forward flank about 55 meters out.  Goold and Lofts or Waite get ther first, somehow Royce traps the ball between these two, pulls it back to himself, then takes one step forward (he's facing the boundary line) pivots and kicks the ball from the boundary line towards goal (he's still about 55 meters out).  It goes through post high against the wind.  We win.  All you could see was Goold and Lofts/Waite just standing there open mouthed/slack jawed in awe.  Goold to his credit shook Royce's hand with full sincerity about 30 seconds later when the siren went.  Lou Richards and Mike Williamson raved about that goal for weeks. 

However I may be jaundiced in that I can recall Ablett cutting us apart too often and thus hated him/envied Geelong.  In the early 70's 90% of all other club supporters would have had a similar opinion of Richmond and Royce.  Hated Royce but envied us for getting him.  Every year the story would come out about how GR signed him for 6 shirts and 2 pairs of trousers.

Sorry for reminiscing.....

[Fishfinger]

Nice memories HK & 1980.

Royce was an absolute star but for me our best ever is KB.
Around 20 years of top shelf performances, robbed of the Brownlow in 1973 when he regularly collected 40 possessions in a game, when he got older was able to adapt from roving to a permanent half forward role and dominate in the position, the best goal sneak and reader of the ball off a pack I've ever seen, uncanny goal sense from anywhere within range, a consistent performer week-in week-out and always did the special things in big games - particularly finals.

For me as well Ablett is the best ever. Bartlett and Matthews are just behind him and I can't choose the better of the two.

[mightytiges]

Ablett no doubt was a freak (and loved kicking a massive bag against us all the time  ) but my only query over him compared to say KB, Matthews or Carey is apart from the 89 GF where he singlehandedly kept Geelong in the game he didn't do much in the other 3 GFs he played in. Compare that to KB who was always in the best players if not BOG.

The bloke who sits in front of me at the footy played junior footy with Matthews down on the Mornington Peninsula. He said Matthews wasn't built like a tank back then but after getting clobbered early on in his VFL career he turned himself into the physical player he became reknowned for. Obviously crossed the line when he decked Neville Bruns behind the play in his final year.

[JohnF]

Looking at statistics and the awards won (not having seem much of KB and Hart) it seems pretty difficult to see how Hart is ranked higher than KB, but many maintain that he is. I'm guessing those that rank Hart higher put a premium on freak passages of play, thinking they override consistency, longevity, adaptability and clever (but not jaw dropping) play.

I suppose similarly with Ablett (though the analogy isn't spot on), blokes like Hocking, Couch, Bairstow ended up winning all the best and fairest awards for their consistently high levels of play, whereas Ablett was somewhat inconsistent, but managed to produce truly breathtaking moments which get branded into people's conscious and he is considered a much better player than his midfielder team mates.

Or to take another example (again not exactly on the money) closer to home, Cambo has more awards than Knighta and Richo combined, but the majority of supporters consider Knighta and Richo better players. It's much easier to reminisce about things that Knighta and Richo done than to think of the longevity, adaptability and consistent performances (with nothing sublime) that Campbell produced.

Maybe KB is thought of in a similar way in comparison to Hart.

[Fishfinger]

Good point about Ablett JohnF. 
Using my own logic on why I think KB is our best should make me not rate Ablett the best I've seen. I suppose I do because the times I was there to see him play were games against Richmond where he regularly beat us single-handedly. I don't think I'll ever see a better individual effort than his 14 goal haul from a half forward flank.

There's a similar topic on BF where someone said that Hart would have brought a lot of players like KB into the game. Maybe so, but the same could be said for KB bringing Royce into the game by banging the ball forward 30 times a match.
There's also the other point that there were 200+ games KB played where Hart wasn't around to bring him into the game.

[starkravenmad2]

seen hart bartlett and ablett play and would have to say ablett had the other 2 covered with his freakish ability and power plus id doubt wether kev or royce would even dream of kicking 14 goals from a wing .(well maybe kb did dream it lol).i dont think i could split hart and barlett as both were great players for richmond but in differant posistions.                                                             as for richo being better contested mark than roach im not sure that would stand up over time.plus roach would only need a half of the marks of richo to kick twice the goals.might add id say to be a champion u have to be able to kick so i wonder how rich would go