Author Topic: Draft Needs  (Read 4353 times)

Offline tdy

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2010, 10:29:27 PM »
recruit the spine i say.  Ruck, Tall backs, inside mid, then tall forwards

maybe not that order, depends on the talent available.

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2010, 11:11:08 PM »
sheesh when looking at quality overall we desperately need all types.
jeezus h Geez just look at the smalll forward situation we have a shedload king white nason gilligan nahas hicks and we had roberts bloody hell what an ordinary lot of players. where the bloody hell is the class the polish the smarts.

what about rucks, graham please what a battler browne and vickery who truth be told should probably both be developing at coburg and with both absolutely no guarantees that they will make it.

we are screaming out for a genuine big bodied full back theres a lot of eggs in the one rookie basket with gourdis.  you can go on and on.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2010, 02:32:26 AM »
Looking at our list to look for holes I would order each player in each postion as such. I would play the 'Italics' players in the team first on current form/potential.
Firstly a great topic and OP Stripes  :clapping.

Tall Forwards -  (2 or 3)
Riewoldt,  Griffiths, Post, Rance, Westoff
Current Quality/Depth Rating= 6/10
We have the Coleman medalist who is still only 21. Griff has shown a few signs that he could be a great CHF for us in the future but time will tell. We have 2 young average toilers as backups and a development player lining up in Coburg reserves at present.
I agree with your italic selections as far as mid-long term Stripes but at present it's Jack then daylight despite Griffs being our lucky charm this year. Rance would go into the tall defender category moreso than tall forward for mine. Post was disappointing this year at either end of the ground and Westhoff is a long way off to be classed as depth. Depth wise I'd give us a 3/10. In desperation after Griffs did his shoulder we tried McGuane and even Thursty forward and that was a total failure as they kept dragging their man to the contest where Jack was. We need another key forward to add depth IMO.

Mid/Small Forwards - (3 or 4)
Collins, White, Nason, Taylor,
Current Quality/Depth Rating= 4/10
Collins popped up this year and White used his increased size and speed to cause some headaches but overall crumbing/small scoring options remains an area we need more of. Hopefully Taylor can be that crumber as well as marking option too but has shown little to date.

Defensive Forwards - (1)
King, Hicks, Nahas,
Current Quality/Depth Rating= 4/10
In the later half of the year little King made this spot his own using his natural aggression to contain forwards while peeling off and then using his penerating kicks to hurt them the other way. Hicks has promise but will need time and Nahas has gone backwars and may not survive the cull.
I'd give both these groups a 2/10 at this stage. Really we got hardly nothing consistently out of small or midsized forwards as far as good scoring. I'd doubt they gave opposition coaches any sleepless nights. It's still a wait and see approach for Nason and Taylor after just one year in the AFL. I wouldn't have Taylor and Nason together in the same category. Taylor is 189cm so he's your midsized forward who is capable of playing tall on the lead as well as small and smart when the ball hits the ground; Nason on the other hand is your small roving forward. With Morton moving into the midfield we lost a mid forward who could kick goals. We need 1-2 more at least. It's interesting that midsize forwards have been the main avenues for goals in the top sides this year. Where is our next Stevie Johnson, Didak or Rioli?

I wouldn't have a separate group for defensive forwards. A small forward should be a defensive forward as well. Dangerous both offensively around the goals and defensively chasing down and tackling opposition players inside forward 50. Kingy was our best at it this year but he's really only filling in until someone of more natural ability and skill takes his place on our list. Nahas isn't up to it while Hicks is very small. I agree with Redan that White is more an outsider midfielder/finisher than strictly a small/mid forward. Collins likewise. Having said that a small forward is probably the last piece of the puzzle for Hardwick given his experience at Hawthorn. Rioli being the last piece for the tilt at the 2008 flag when drafted in 2007.



Inside Midfielders - (3 or 4)
Cotchin, Martin, Foley, Tuck
Current Quality/Depth Rating= 9/10
Cotchin and Martin are already very good midfielders could, by all signs, turn elite. Foley was class but injury ended his season before it began and could haunt him in the future. Tucky played back but was moved back into the middle more as the year progressed and remains a 'contested-ball monster'. He still lacks the polish and poise of Cotch and Martin though. Our strongest area of the ground imho.
I don't think I'd give it a 9/10 which would put our inside mids in the top bracket of the comp. ;) but contested footy is a strength of ours at least from the perspective that when we can match other sides in the contested footy we are usually competitive. Cotch and Martin are our class mids whereas Tuck is a honest reliable toiler. Foley's future is up in the air having missed the best part of two seasons. We lack depth as we found out when Cotch was rubbed out for 4 weeks and Jacko 3. You can't have enough ballwinners IMO.

Outside Midfielders - (2 or 3)
Morton, Edwards, Webberley
Current Quality/Depth Rating= 3/10
Edwards had a breakout year and Morton came back into the team and played well. Webberly was also very goo in his first season. While signs a positive it remains an area we are weak. We need more players with speed and elite desposal by foot to lift our side in the future. I'm not sure if our current outside midfielders will get to that level.
Agree with your summary here Stripes. Hard to find the elite quality current on our list that we need as outside and linebreaking mids that gut-run in both directions all day. As you said a major area of weakness.

Taggers - (1 or 2)
Jackson
Current Quality/Depth Rating= 5/10
Jackson is incredible important to our midfield structures both containing the oppositions most damaging ball user and laying the blocks/physical work needed to create the space for our players to work in around the stoppages. Jackson has the speed, endurance and athletism to stay with almost any player. While he remains relatively young we do need another player to take his place if he is injuries/suspended. We have no depth here.
I wouldn't have this as a separate category. Bartel tags for Geelong at times and he's a class mid. In the long term we need quality mids who can do multiple roles so we are versatile and can cover injuries. Jacko is okay but if he was upgraded I wouldn't be disappointed.

Tall Defenders - (2 or 3)
Moore, McGuane, Astbury, Gourdis, Thursfield, Grimes
Current Quality/Depth Rating= 8/10
While our tall defenders are still average at present we have built up a great deal of depth and potential in this area. In fact we have created a healthy competiton for places at present.
As far as tall defenders who are spoilers then yes we have depth in that area. However a modern backman needs to rebound and distribute the ball outside defensive 50 as well as he defends. From the later viewpoint I'd give us a 4/10. Moore is not too bad while Astbury has shown he do both roles. Thursty and McGuane are strictly old school defenders. Gourdis is still unknown and has question marks over his footskills whereas Grimes is too young to judge. We have too many of the same type of tall defender and we need a bigger body defender. I can't see moving forward with all 3 of Thursty, McGuane and Moore. McGaune being moved out of defence this year and tried up forward makes him vunerable and possible trade bait for mine. I don't think he has the footy smarts to take us up the ladder.

Mid/Small Defenders - (3 or 4)
Deledio, Newman, Connors, Farmer, Tambling, Dea
Current Quality/Depth Rating= 7/10
Our running backline is excellent with our best uses playing behind the ball. Conversely though we lack the type of small/mid defenders who can shut down a dangerous small forward such as a Milne. We have depth and potential here though.
Agree with your summary here Stripes.

Rucks - (1 or 2)
Graham, Vickery, Browne
Current Quality/Depth Rating= 4/10
Graham was exceelent early but ran out steam. Vickery also showed good signs but ran his race early too. Vickery has excellent movement for a big fellow but seemed to be still learning how to play this year. Browne remain raw. Three rucks is not enough on a list.
While we still struggle big time in the ruck at times it's not a high priority to deal with at this stage. Also the top 5 sides this year have first ruckman that weren't developed. They were traded for in their mid-late 20s: Jolly, Ottens, Gardiner and King, Hudson and Mumford. With free agency coming we can wait and poach a decent mature ruckman as required.


So in terms of draft needs....
A ballwinning mid or two who can play outside, works hard both ways and has elite footskills with penetration.
A tall key forward
A bigger body key defender/rebounder
A classy midsize forward
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Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2010, 07:42:41 AM »
Mick malthouse says you need 31 players on the list

and 9 as back up

that should be our aim

Offline Smokey

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2010, 01:42:51 PM »
One of the regulars on Tiger-Talk posted this earlier today.  I have a fair idea who the 'source' is and if I'm correct then the guy is a Richmond supporter employed elsewhere within the industry who has a very good football brain but make of it what you will:

Had an email exchange with a notable Richmond Guru. He was happy to forward this on provided his identity remain clouded - please no public guessing.
Worth a read.

Here are the salient bits:

---
I suppose I got Richmond wrong in one sense. Fremantle found a way to win despite putting little experience out onto the park.

I have always felt that it is the 23-28 year olds who win you games. Plus a veteran or two and a kid or two to complete the mix. Fremantle plucked kids from the draft and won which I have never believed possible. Almost half their team had less than 30 games in them.

Makes me think that the comp is getting weaker and weaker for talent. Heading more to a star-system surrounded by some honest goers. Watching some of the guys that St Kilda have surrounded Reiwoldt with really strikes it home for me. Carlton won games with no forward line or backline, just on the back of a group of midfielders and role players.

I think that makes it easy for a club to finish 14th or 7th in any given year. I think the gap between finishing between 8th and 4th is much larger than the challenge of getting into the 8. And then the step from top-4, to a contender is bigger again.

So I think Richmond might get into the 8 next year. But I don't know how much I value that anymore.

More specifically.

Most clubs are emphasising defenders who can go to anyone. Play on talls and shorts (eg Moore and Newman who can take on all comers). Richmond might be going a different way with the determination to recruit Post, Astbury and co. Grimes is more 'modern'. Similarly forwards should be able to play low (goal square) and high (half-forward) and switch up their roles from being a running, roaming, leading type - to a target man. I don't know if Richmond are going that way with Vickery, Reiwoldt, Griffiths and Astbury who seem
more specialised.

I also think that the assumption that all our smalls are destined to develop and stay is false. My theory is that Richmond are conducting an open-audition. Nason, King, Nahas, Roberts (gone), Gilligan (going) and Hicks. Long term none of them is elite, and there are probably only two or three 'jobs' available for them. Similar story with White, Webberley, Tambling, Edwards.

A lot of Tiger fans talk about a long list of young talent who will all develop and become a team. I actually see 3-4 contests. 3-4 roles in the team being fought over by 20 blokes. I mean Connors, Rance, Polo, O'Reilly, Dea, Grimes, Thursfield, Collins (?) might actually all be after 1 or 2 spots in defence. Probably Thursfield's spot. I don' think they can all make it.

Getting something out of Morton and Connors is the big positive - both have elite talent. Polo probably only got his career because he tagged Morton so well, so highly was Morton regarded as a midfield junior. The midfield of Deledio, Martin, Cotchin, Foley is elite. Edwards, Tuck and Jackson provide good grunt and flesh out the numbers. Moore and Newman are top drawer defenders. White goes OK. Connors and Morton are the could-be-anythings.

We need Reiwoldt to prove that he can play in a forward set-up, not just one-out seeing 90% of the inside-50s.

Tambling to get back to his best. White to stay where he was this year. I really like Astbury at both ends, he is going to be very important to us going forward. Hace always like Collins as well.

Both Browne and Graham are almost handy second-stringers ... we need a top ruckman but plenty of teams have won without one.

Connors, Vickery, Taylor, Rance, Tambling, Morton - that is the key 6 for us. Those guys fulfill their promise and we get much better. They don't and we lack the depth to cover them. Everyone else is pretty much where you'd expect whether it be playing well, or being a role player. 5 of them (not Rance) are potential match winners on their day.

I think we need an elite ruckman. Better small forwards. Better mid-size defenders who can also play small. Some hard running midfielders who push back into defence and then push forward. Key forward options to complete Reiwoldt. Some physical / defensive pressure in midfield with a view to Tuck and Jackson (29 and 25 next season) not being able to sustain all the blue-collar work. Easy !!!

Interesting if RFC are actually after Houli. He played most of his career as a forward/mid. Mostly forward of the ball and a goalkicker with an occasional run on the ball. So he is a like-for-like replacement for Roberts and another one added to the competition for a small forward spot.


http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/tiger-talk/message/93878

Offline Chuck17

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2010, 04:42:29 PM »
I think we need an elite ruckman. Better small forwards. Better mid-size defenders who can also play small. Some hard running midfielders who push back into defence and then push forward. Key forward options to complete Reiwoldt. Some physical / defensive pressure in midfield with a view to Tuck and Jackson (29 and 25 next season) not being able to sustain all the blue-collar work. Easy !!!

Has he left any positions out that we dont need?  It sounds like we got Riewoldt and need 17 more palyers.

Offline Smokey

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2010, 06:32:42 PM »
I think we need an elite ruckman. Better small forwards. Better mid-size defenders who can also play small. Some hard running midfielders who push back into defence and then push forward. Key forward options to complete Reiwoldt. Some physical / defensive pressure in midfield with a view to Tuck and Jackson (29 and 25 next season) not being able to sustain all the blue-collar work. Easy !!!

Has he left any positions out that we dont need?  It sounds like we got Riewoldt and need 17 more palyers.

 :) but true Chuck if we want to become a contender.  As he said, he thinks we can make the 8 next year but that's not necessarily a sign of significant improvement or a capable list.  To become a contender we will need to top up or bolster most of these areas and continual turnover is how to go about it, keeping the best we have and then trying to improve on them.

Offline RedanTiger

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2010, 12:23:20 AM »

I think we need an elite ruckman. Better small forwards. Better mid-size defenders who can also play small. Some hard running midfielders who push back into defence and then push forward. Key forward options to complete Reiwoldt. Some physical / defensive pressure in midfield with a view to Tuck and Jackson (29 and 25 next season) not being able to sustain all the blue-collar work. Easy !!!

What a pile of overwrought crap. To win a premiership next year that's what we need. How about we develop a team?

Elite ruckman - wait and see otherwise trade in if necessary like Ottens, Jolly, Hudson, Gardiner, Mumford, Warnock.
Small forwards - 2 or 3 jobs for Nason, King, Hicks, White, Tambling, Edwards but none are elite based on very little experience in most cases.
Midfielders - names 4 as elite and 3 to do grunt work. Add Connors, Collins and Morton that he mentions and the hard running will come with time and a couple more kids to share the load.
Key Forwards - geeeezz give Griffiths, Post, Astbury and Rance some time and experience playing together. Not to mention Taylor.
Physical pressure - we have the draft to replace older players like Tuck and Jackson.

Offline Smokey

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2010, 08:46:19 AM »

What a pile of overwrought crap. To win a premiership next year that's what we need. How about we develop a team?

Elite ruckman - wait and see otherwise trade in if necessary like Ottens, Jolly, Hudson, Gardiner, Mumford, Warnock.
Small forwards - 2 or 3 jobs for Nason, King, Hicks, White, Tambling, Edwards but none are elite based on very little experience in most cases.
Midfielders - names 4 as elite and 3 to do grunt work. Add Connors, Collins and Morton that he mentions and the hard running will come with time and a couple more kids to share the load.
Key Forwards - geeeezz give Griffiths, Post, Astbury and Rance some time and experience playing together. Not to mention Taylor.
Physical pressure - we have the draft to replace older players like Tuck and Jackson.

Why is it such a pile of crap RT?  He said that's what he thought we needed to be a contender - do you not agree?  If we fill some of those spots by developing then great, if not then we keep getting in new players by draft or trade to improve on the ones we let go - how is that theory a "pile of overwrought crap"?  Do you believe we have the major base of our next premiership side on board now?  He mentions 12 players that are of a sufficient standard now or will be with a little further improvement and 6 that are a key to our future improvement.  Surely you don't think the club can now afford to sit on it's hands and wait a few years to see if the development in the rest of the squad is of a sufficient standard for us to become a contender?  I fear you will be sorely and forever disappointed if so.

Offline tdy

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2010, 10:58:27 AM »

Makes me think that the comp is getting weaker and weaker for talent. Heading more to a star-system surrounded by some honest goers. Watching some of the guys that St Kilda have surrounded Reiwoldt with really strikes it home for me. Carlton won games with no forward line or backline, just on the back of a group of midfielders and role players.

I also think that the assumption that all our smalls are destined to develop and stay is false. My theory is that Richmond are conducting an open-audition. Nason, King, Nahas, Roberts (gone), Gilligan (going) and Hicks. Long term none of them is elite, and there are probably only two or three 'jobs' available for them. Similar story with White, Webberley, Tambling, Edwards.


Some quite salient points, St Kilda has a lot of honest toilers in their lot, as did Sydney in 2005-06.  Even Collingwood of this year have just a generally higher standard, but are even over the ground.

I think hes right on the  "Open Audition", its the right way to go to develop a core of elite players, which we don't have right now.

Of those small he lists I only reckon Nason and maybe King have longer term futures.  So its time to recruit more kids.  I would get rid of Hicks, if he can't get a game this year when we were trying out pretty much everyone, including the Irish recruit then he won't make it.  Don't clog the list with him.



Offline Infamy

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2010, 11:18:22 AM »

Makes me think that the comp is getting weaker and weaker for talent. Heading more to a star-system surrounded by some honest goers. Watching some of the guys that St Kilda have surrounded Reiwoldt with really strikes it home for me. Carlton won games with no forward line or backline, just on the back of a group of midfielders and role players.

I also think that the assumption that all our smalls are destined to develop and stay is false. My theory is that Richmond are conducting an open-audition. Nason, King, Nahas, Roberts (gone), Gilligan (going) and Hicks. Long term none of them is elite, and there are probably only two or three 'jobs' available for them. Similar story with White, Webberley, Tambling, Edwards.


Some quite salient points, St Kilda has a lot of honest toilers in their lot, as did Sydney in 2005-06.  Even Collingwood of this year have just a generally higher standard, but are even over the ground.

I think hes right on the  "Open Audition", its the right way to go to develop a core of elite players, which we don't have right now.

Of those small he lists I only reckon Nason and maybe King have longer term futures.  So its time to recruit more kids.  I would get rid of Hicks, if he can't get a game this year when we were trying out pretty much everyone, including the Irish recruit then he won't make it.  Don't clog the list with him.
Hicks did get a game after being elevated off the rookie list. Wasn't his fault he couldn't play earlier as we didn't have any more long term injuries.

Offline Smokey

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2010, 12:45:47 PM »

I would get rid of Hicks, if he can't get a game this year when we were trying out pretty much everyone, including the Irish recruit then he won't make it.  Don't clog the list with him.


He played 3 senior games.  ???

Offline RedanTiger

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2010, 11:52:59 PM »

Why is it such a pile of crap RT?  He said that's what he thought we needed to be a contender - do you not agree?  If we fill some of those spots by developing then great, if not then we keep getting in new players by draft or trade to improve on the ones we let go - how is that theory a "pile of overwrought crap"?  Do you believe we have the major base of our next premiership side on board now?  He mentions 12 players that are of a sufficient standard now or will be with a little further improvement and 6 that are a key to our future improvement.  Surely you don't think the club can now afford to sit on it's hands and wait a few years to see if the development in the rest of the squad is of a sufficient standard for us to become a contender?  I fear you will be sorely and forever disappointed if so.

Overwrought was the word I used. I do agree with most of what he says but it is phrased very negatively, as I pointed out in my reponse.
I agree that's what we need to be a contender . That's why I posted my second sentence.
Yes I believe we have the base of our next premiership on board now. Names 12 and adds another 6 who are critical - I'd say that's a fair base for any club.
I don't think we should sit on our hands but nor do I think it is time to panic and make premature calls on kids in their early years. As an example simply look at the post that followed about Hicks.
The development of players has only started this year and some more mature players have been permanently damaged by Wallace et al and need to be replaced.

After Wallace's second draft I was convinced we would not even be competitive for another 8 years - four more thru Wallace and four to repair the damage.
The club in general and Hardwick (and his staff) are tracking much better than I had hoped. I am really scared of pressure coming at a club moving in the right direction.

IT IS YEAR ONE, but not even draft one of the Hardwick period.

Offline Owl

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2010, 08:50:42 AM »
Hicks played alright for mine...
Lots of people name their swords......

1965

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Re: Draft Needs
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2010, 09:14:45 AM »
Hicks played alright for mine...

That's a hoot.

 :lol