Author Topic: AGM 2011 - now Wed Dec 21st not Dec 14th  (Read 12362 times)

Jackstar is back again

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2011, 11:10:04 PM »
Dont like this at all.
This needs to be looked into and challenged.

Jackstar is back again

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2011, 11:12:21 PM »
2.    To vote on the proposed changes to the Club’s Constitution

Details of the Constitution Changes to be voted on are on the RFC web-site

Now I know Mr RFC_O doesn't like us posting web-site articles in full but this one appears pretty important ...

Constitution changes explained
richmondfc.com.au
11:39 AM Mon 28 Nov, 2011

Richmond President Gary March spoke to richmondfc.com.au to explain the changes to the Club’s constitution.

RFC: What is the major constitutional change being proposed by the board?

Gary March: It is widely-acknowledged, best practice among leading corporations, that boards should comprise a mix of elected and appointed directors. The current Richmond constitution allows for nine elected directors - the board is proposing that a constitutional amendment be made to allow for three directors to be appointed. A board of nine would therefore comprise six elected directors and three appointed directors.  The appointed directors would not be allowed to serve more than two terms.

RFC: Why is this good for my football club?

GM: Like many corporations and other elite sporting clubs - including other highly-successful AFL clubs - this change will enable the board to identify people with the expertise, and skill set, to significantly enhance the business of the Richmond Football Club. This would be a very positive move. The AFL landscape is becoming increasingly competitive and it is important that we provide ourselves with every opportunity to engage the best people to give us the best chance to compete and lead.

RFC: Are there any other changes that I need to be aware of?

GM: It has also been proposed by the board that - at its discretion - a senior executive of the Club may be appointed to the board as an Executive Director. In making this change, and to accommodate an additional appointment, we are also proposing that the constitution allows for the board to comprise up to 10 directors.

RFC: Why did the board decide to make these changes now?

GM: The board has undertaken a comprehensive review of its governance structures, and practices, to ensure it operates effectively on behalf of the members. The proposed changes are in line with the recommendations that came out of this review and will ensure our Club’s board becomes more efficient and effective.
for richmondfc.com.au

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/6301/newsid/126610/default.aspx

Might be there .
Dont like this at all

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2011, 07:04:17 AM »
I have no issue with the idea of an executive director if it's Benny Gale. It's pretty standard practice to have managing directors on company boards.

Benny Gale sits in on all board meetings already so he doesn't need to be a voting Director IMHO

And besdies what happens if one day the board aren't happy with the CEO's performance and need to vote on whether to terminate him/her? How can the same CEO be on the board voting on his/her future  :-\

Agree with you about the appointed directors - don't like it

Have to say that IMHO the only way this will NOT go through is if people who are against it turn up at the AGM and vote it down   
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Offline Penelope

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2011, 08:45:23 AM »
I have no issue with the idea of an executive director if it's Benny Gale. It's pretty standard practice to have managing directors on company boards.

However I agree with Ramps about having non-elected board members. It's not as though under the current constitutional arrangements that the Board can't appoint and bring in people they want. If a potential board member turns down an opportunity to be on the Board because he/she is afraid of being held to account for their performance every 3 years via a democratic vote by the members (ie. shareholders) of the Club then you have to ask if that person is the right person to be director. Is the Club now saying as members we can't be trusted and are too stupid to understand to do what is best for the Club  ::). Obviously some at the top need a reminder without us there wouldn't be a Club to be a Board member of after the past 30 years of abysmal failure.

while not the way i would put it, there is some merit in that.
bottom line is most people do not know which board members are doing their job and which ones are not, nor would they have any idea about potential replacements.

This doesn't stop people from jumping up and down as if they do, but reality is that unless someone keeps really close tabs on the machinations, their opinion is not much more informed than what mine would be, which is why i generally dont vote on these elections anyway.

The last thirty years or so isn't a great argument that the members know what, or more importantly who, is best for the club.

It is though a very delicate balancing act in ensuring they get the best to the club, while still ensuring they are accountable to the members and not becoming an old boys club.
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2011, 11:58:22 PM »
I have no issue with the idea of an executive director if it's Benny Gale. It's pretty standard practice to have managing directors on company boards.

However I agree with Ramps about having non-elected board members. It's not as though under the current constitutional arrangements that the Board can't appoint and bring in people they want. If a potential board member turns down an opportunity to be on the Board because he/she is afraid of being held to account for their performance every 3 years via a democratic vote by the members (ie. shareholders) of the Club then you have to ask if that person is the right person to be director. Is the Club now saying as members we can't be trusted and are too stupid to understand to do what is best for the Club  ::). Obviously some at the top need a reminder without us there wouldn't be a Club to be a Board member of after the past 30 years of abysmal failure.

while not the way i would put it, there is some merit in that.
bottom line is most people do not know which board members are doing their job and which ones are not, nor would they have any idea about potential replacements.

This doesn't stop people from jumping up and down as if they do, but reality is that unless someone keeps really close tabs on the machinations, their opinion is not much more informed than what mine would be, which is why i generally dont vote on these elections anyway.

The last thirty years or so isn't a great argument that the members know what, or more importantly who, is best for the club.

It is though a very delicate balancing act in ensuring they get the best to the club, while still ensuring they are accountable to the members and not becoming an old boys club.
While true most of us al wouldn't know any more than any other average member, it's a bit hard to find fault with the average member given before the 2004 full board election we hadn't had any Board elections for years. Prior to that it wasn't the members fault that the Club went to trade war with Collingwood in the early-mid 80s and lost $1.5m ($15m in today's money) which sent the Club broke. In fact the members and supporters had to come to the rescue with their hard earned in the SOS campaign to keep the Club alive. It wasn't the members fault either in the 90s that Northey left after the 1995 finals or we traded away our best draft picks for duds in the late 90s/early 00s topping up and finishing 9th which decimated our playing list. The RFC was a boys club where cartain groups high up in the Club fought for control of it and appointed their mates to the Board while the average member had no say. Since 2004 there at least has been some accountability as I believe members and supporters now take more interest in the Club's health off-field as well as on-field because of the incompetence that went down in the past. Why now give up our voting rights and the ability to scrutinize those at the top! It's our Club as well. Would we accept the abolition of Australia's political democracy at a national, state and local level because we as voters all don't have 100% knowledge of and expertise in Australian's energy, transport, health, defence, welfare etc needs when we vote?! Of course we wouldn't. Furthermore we as members knows what responsibillites each Board member has from the committees each of them belong to just as in politics we can know who is minister of each Government dept. As I said if someone is afraid of facing accountability via a vote by RFC members just once every 3 years then IMO they aren't fit to be a Board member in the first place.

By the way the Club has sent out a Explanatory Memorandum with all the detailed constitutional changes. In the constitution it says there needs to be 100 members at the AGM to form a quorum.
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Offline Hernaman

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2011, 01:34:06 AM »
This is based on an article I posted a few hours ago on PRE. I reproduce it here so as to raise awareness of the issue (I will confess to having lurked in these parts from time to time).

I have been through the proposed amendments carefully and strongly urge you to put in your proxy and vote against them. Apologies for the length of this post but this is an important issue that I feel is worthy of proper analysis. It’s easy to sit and take pot shots so I also think it’s fair enough that if I raise objections I should state why.

I do not object to the club having the right to appoint suitably qualified candidates to the board. I do however object to (A) those appointees not being answerable to members; and (B) by virtue of the definition of a quorum, a board decision could be made despite more than half of member elected directors voting against the decision.  Used cynically, an unsuccessful or unpopular board could use these changes to entrench themselves.

The substance of the change is that in a few years the board would be made up of 6 elected directors, 3 appointed directors and the CEO or other executive of the club appointed by the board. The appointed directors do not face election and can be appointed for up to 2 consecutive terms of 3 years.

I question why any potential appointee should not be answerable to members:

1. We quite rightly expect our directors to work hard in the best interests of the club and members. In some respects it is a thankless task. How can an appointee be expected to have the drive to do so with the necessary commitment and passion if they are unwilling to subject themselves to re-election? This should not be made a role for those looking to bolster a CV or get up the pecking order at his chap's club of choice.

2. Members are the lifeblood of this club. Every time the club gets in strife we, the members and supporters, bail it out. Consider Save our Skins, our staggering membership and the FTF. We are not a club of the well to do. Our strength comes from the loyal support of the rank and file. We answer the call to arms every time an administration fails. At a time when the club continues to ask us to give more on the one hand it is not in my view justified in asking us to sacrifice an element of our democracy on the other.

3. Nor is the sacrifice of democracy justified in terms of board performance to date. Yes, the last few years have seen great improvement in a great many aspects of the club. In that respect I applaud the board and executive. However, we know all too well about false dawns. It is important to remember that a number of the current directors were part of the Casey administrations. I don’t say that to be personal, quite the contrary. This should not be a decision based on personalities or whether you trust the current board. Remember you are being asked to implement a change which will last well beyond the here and now.

4. On that I implore you to think about whether this arrangement would be acceptable if, in 3 years from now the CEO left, we had still failed to make the 8 and had not been able to retire the debt? I hope with all my heart this will never happen but raise it to make the point that in analysing the changes, please do not agree to them because you trust Gary, Brendan and Damien or are pleased with current progress. This change will be very hard to undo.

5. The club materials suggest that most clubs have the power to appoint directors. That is not completely true. Some clubs do not have that power at all. Of those that do, many such as in Hawthorn’s case require the appointed director to face re-election at the next AGM. This is a model I would be happy with. For your background the model proposed by the club mirrors Essendon’s constitution.

6. The club materials suggest these changes are consistent with modern corporate governance. This is untrue. No company in the ASX20 has the capacity to appoint directors without them being subject to re-election by shareholders. I would prefer my directors to be subject to the standards of the Commonwealth Bank or BHP, not the the Essendon Football Club.

7. The club has said that it wants to implement these changes so as to attract the necessary expertise to take the club forward. To some extent this is what the nominations committee is for but in any event nothing in the constitution as it stands today prevents the board from obtaining the external expertise it needs. For example, it could tomorrow appoint Mick Malthouse or Leigh Matthews or in the future a retired Brian Cook or Neil Balme as a special advisor or consultant to the board on a voluntary or paid basis. The only difference is that to have a vote, you need to be elected.

8. The introduction of the nominations committee is a good idea; if it does its job it will find suitably qualified candidates and give underperforming directors the nudge they need. While the nominations committee does not interfere with the normal (pre-amendment) democratic process it probably does make it harder for we ordinary folk to put up our hands if we are so inclined. One danger of the amendments is that it really does take the board to being a closed shop.

9. Please don’t disempower yourself because members have in the past perhaps made bad decisions about who they have voted for. That’s what democracy and participation is all about. It’s not always the case that those in charge know better than you. I guarantee you there will be cases over the years where your motivations regarding the club and its welfare are purer than those of some directors.

10. Please don’t vote in favour of this for fear you will be rocking the boat or disrupting the club’s current progress (which is pleasing). A “no” vote will have no real bearing on the club other than maybe scaring off a candidate or 2 who don’t want to have to ask you for their vote, and in doing so justify why they are a suitable candidate, in a year’s time. 

As a separate point the changes give the board the ability to appoint an executive to the board. I question why this provision is broader than the CEO. Why for example should a board be able to appoint, for example, the head of football or even a player to the board? This capacity could be used cynically to unfairly skew elections and the public perception of board matters. The Greg Miller case in my view should have taught us that directors should not be able to use executive staff in matters of boards, governance and elections.

I welcome your views, be they for or against. Please vote by attending the AGM or sending in your proxy form to the club not less than 24 hours before the meeting. The resolution needs a 75% resolution so either way have your say and make your vote count.

Offline Penelope

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2011, 09:27:40 AM »
While true most of us al wouldn't know any more than any other average member, it's a bit hard to find fault with the average member given before the 2004 full board election we hadn't had any Board elections for years........

By the way the Club has sent out a Explanatory Memorandum with all the detailed constitutional changes. In the constitution it says there needs to be 100 members at the AGM to form a quorum.

(quote shortened for convenience only)

I wasn't necessarily saying that the members were to blame for those f ups, just that that past performance is hardly an argument that members know who is the best person for the club, but i do take the points you raise.

It's a delicate situation and obviously an important one. As it is now many of the important decision makers within the club are appointed and the members have no direct say on their appointment or dismissal, but the issue here for most does seem to be not so much the appointment but rather the ability to give them the flick and perhaps there does need to be some mechanism put in place?

People who feel strongly about this, and have put some thought into it, should  attend the AGM and raise their concerns in a civil and logical manner at the AGM.

Can amendments to proposals be submitted from the floor?

The club has claimed that this is best practice in the corporate world. Does anyone know how well it works and what in general has been the response of shareholders when similar proposals have been made in publicly listed companies?

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2011, 10:48:18 AM »
Got the big glossy booklet on Wednesday explaining the proposed changes and containing the constitution & how it will read if the proposed changes go through

Have to say I have been thinking about this alot as I will be attending the AGM as always so therefore will be voting.

After reading what they have sent through I can honestly say that IMHO they have not made a compelling arguement for the changes.

Reading the doc has not alleyed any of the concerns I have had and continue to have about this issue
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Jackstar is back again

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2011, 10:53:34 AM »
I have a question.
How do you actually vote for "'NO"
In regards to procedures on the night.
This needs to be clarified in "'black and white "' to make it easy for people to vote
the problem is this
They send all this information and make it too hard for the average ''punter ' to vote.
Can someone please clarify what needs to happen on the night.
I will be attending

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2011, 11:16:27 AM »
I have a question.
How do you actually vote for "'NO"
In regards to procedures on the night.
This needs to be clarified in "'black and white "' to make it easy for people to vote
the problem is this
They send all this information and make it too hard for the average ''punter ' to vote.
Can someone please clarify what needs to happen on the night.
I will be attending

Normally votes at the AGM go like this

Put forward the motion
Ask for a seconder
Ask all those in favour - raise your hand
Against

And that's that = majority wins

"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

from the song "Don't Walk Away" by Pat Benatar 1988 (Wide Awake In Dreamland)

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2011, 11:51:02 AM »
This is based on an article I posted a few hours ago on PRE. I reproduce it here so as to raise awareness of the issue (I will confess to having lurked in these parts from time to time).

I have been through the proposed amendments carefully and strongly urge you to put in your proxy and vote against them. Apologies for the length of this post but this is an important issue that I feel is worthy of proper analysis. It’s easy to sit and take pot shots so I also think it’s fair enough that if I raise objections I should state why.

I do not object to the club having the right to appoint suitably qualified candidates to the board. I do however object to (A) those appointees not being answerable to members; and (B) by virtue of the definition of a quorum, a board decision could be made despite more than half of member elected directors voting against the decision.  Used cynically, an unsuccessful or unpopular board could use these changes to entrench themselves.

The substance of the change is that in a few years the board would be made up of 6 elected directors, 3 appointed directors and the CEO or other executive of the club appointed by the board. The appointed directors do not face election and can be appointed for up to 2 consecutive terms of 3 years.

I question why any potential appointee should not be answerable to members:

1. We quite rightly expect our directors to work hard in the best interests of the club and members. In some respects it is a thankless task. How can an appointee be expected to have the drive to do so with the necessary commitment and passion if they are unwilling to subject themselves to re-election? This should not be made a role for those looking to bolster a CV or get up the pecking order at his chap's club of choice.

2. Members are the lifeblood of this club. Every time the club gets in strife we, the members and supporters, bail it out. Consider Save our Skins, our staggering membership and the FTF. We are not a club of the well to do. Our strength comes from the loyal support of the rank and file. We answer the call to arms every time an administration fails. At a time when the club continues to ask us to give more on the one hand it is not in my view justified in asking us to sacrifice an element of our democracy on the other.

3. Nor is the sacrifice of democracy justified in terms of board performance to date. Yes, the last few years have seen great improvement in a great many aspects of the club. In that respect I applaud the board and executive. However, we know all too well about false dawns. It is important to remember that a number of the current directors were part of the Casey administrations. I don’t say that to be personal, quite the contrary. This should not be a decision based on personalities or whether you trust the current board. Remember you are being asked to implement a change which will last well beyond the here and now.

4. On that I implore you to think about whether this arrangement would be acceptable if, in 3 years from now the CEO left, we had still failed to make the 8 and had not been able to retire the debt? I hope with all my heart this will never happen but raise it to make the point that in analysing the changes, please do not agree to them because you trust Gary, Brendan and Damien or are pleased with current progress. This change will be very hard to undo.

5. The club materials suggest that most clubs have the power to appoint directors. That is not completely true. Some clubs do not have that power at all. Of those that do, many such as in Hawthorn’s case require the appointed director to face re-election at the next AGM. This is a model I would be happy with. For your background the model proposed by the club mirrors Essendon’s constitution.

6. The club materials suggest these changes are consistent with modern corporate governance. This is untrue. No company in the ASX20 has the capacity to appoint directors without them being subject to re-election by shareholders. I would prefer my directors to be subject to the standards of the Commonwealth Bank or BHP, not the the Essendon Football Club.

7. The club has said that it wants to implement these changes so as to attract the necessary expertise to take the club forward. To some extent this is what the nominations committee is for but in any event nothing in the constitution as it stands today prevents the board from obtaining the external expertise it needs. For example, it could tomorrow appoint Mick Malthouse or Leigh Matthews or in the future a retired Brian Cook or Neil Balme as a special advisor or consultant to the board on a voluntary or paid basis. The only difference is that to have a vote, you need to be elected.

8. The introduction of the nominations committee is a good idea; if it does its job it will find suitably qualified candidates and give underperforming directors the nudge they need. While the nominations committee does not interfere with the normal (pre-amendment) democratic process it probably does make it harder for we ordinary folk to put up our hands if we are so inclined. One danger of the amendments is that it really does take the board to being a closed shop.

9. Please don’t disempower yourself because members have in the past perhaps made bad decisions about who they have voted for. That’s what democracy and participation is all about. It’s not always the case that those in charge know better than you. I guarantee you there will be cases over the years where your motivations regarding the club and its welfare are purer than those of some directors.

10. Please don’t vote in favour of this for fear you will be rocking the boat or disrupting the club’s current progress (which is pleasing). A “no” vote will have no real bearing on the club other than maybe scaring off a candidate or 2 who don’t want to have to ask you for their vote, and in doing so justify why they are a suitable candidate, in a year’s time. 

As a separate point the changes give the board the ability to appoint an executive to the board. I question why this provision is broader than the CEO. Why for example should a board be able to appoint, for example, the head of football or even a player to the board? This capacity could be used cynically to unfairly skew elections and the public perception of board matters. The Greg Miller case in my view should have taught us that directors should not be able to use executive staff in matters of boards, governance and elections.

I welcome your views, be they for or against. Please vote by attending the AGM or sending in your proxy form to the club not less than 24 hours before the meeting. The resolution needs a 75% resolution so either way have your say and make your vote count.

I commend this post. Its a high quality post about a very important issue that is not being properly discussed by the members. I am against the constitutional changes. I sent an email to Brendon Gale about my concerns on a whole number of issues pertaining to the constitutional change and I didnt hear anything back. I urged the club to look at compromise but got nothing back. For me I am against the changes as they stand the club could have compromised for example -

The club could have put forward the option of only being able to co-opt 1 instead of 3 people onto a board of 9. The club could have written into the constitution that the club executive being on the board would only be the Chief Executive and no one else. The club it seems were working on this document for a fair while and thats why they dont want to compromise - so for me my intention is that I will be attending the AGM and I will be voting No and I urge everyone who is concerned to come down also and fight for our rights! :cheers

Jackstar is back again

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2011, 01:41:25 PM »
I have a question.
How do you actually vote for "'NO"
In regards to procedures on the night.
This needs to be clarified in "'black and white "' to make it easy for people to vote
the problem is this
They send all this information and make it too hard for the average ''punter ' to vote.
Can someone please clarify what needs to happen on the night.
I will be attending

Normally votes at the AGM go like this

Put forward the motion
Ask for a seconder
Ask all those in favour - raise your hand
Against

And that's that = majority wins

I know that, but its not right in my opinion.
People/supporters get scared off by information sent they may be ''wishy washy"
Looks like we will be there putting our hand up.
Can I put both hands up :bow

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2011, 03:12:19 PM »
I know that, but its not right in my opinion.
People/supporters get scared off by information sent they may be ''wishy washy"
Looks like we will be there putting our hand up.
Can I put both hands up :bow

it may not be "right" but that's the way it's done and has always been done

I would think that for the first time in a long time peple may actually bother to turn up this year because of this issue.

It seems to have stirred some people into action   ;D
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from the song "Don't Walk Away" by Pat Benatar 1988 (Wide Awake In Dreamland)

Online Hard Roar Tiger

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2011, 03:16:05 PM »
Look like a duck, smells like one too....

I'll be going and voting NO.

Board needs to get the basics right first before it gets all cutesy with taking away our god given right to vote in the next eff up to run the club.

Lets retire the debt, finish off our player facilities, improve our p&l through increasing non member related income and play some finals.
“I find it nearly impossible to make those judgments, but he is certainly up there with the really important ones, he is certainly up there with the Francis Bourkes and the Royce Harts and the Kevin Bartlett and the Kevin Sheedys, there is no doubt about that,” Balme said.

Offline RedanTiger

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Re: AGM 2011 - Wed Dec 21st
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2011, 03:29:21 PM »
As mentioned by others the ability is there for Appointed Directors to be re-appointed for a second three year term. This is more tenure than an Elected Director who must face re-election after their three year term. There does however seem to be some contradiction to this in that section 13(g) says that the members have the right to "vote to disqualify a director" with the ability to vote "to appoint another person to the office of director".   

As posted by Jackstar and WP I presume the motion will be to accept the changes to the constitution as a whole. This may well be used to muddy the waters a bit since sections such as the removal of the position of Treasurer and other "housekeeping" of the constitution may be desirable. Presumably this is where amendments to the motion may be flagged before voting on the original motion.

It is worth noting that due to the Nominations Committee performing it's function and reducing the "number of high-quality candidates" that Walsh and Speed were appointed to fill casual board vacancies due to the resignation of Cameron and Lord and since there were no other candidates, aside from Free's expiry of term, they were then deemed to be Elected Directors. Thus at the time after the 2014 AGM the board of nine (without the Executive Director) will effectively include five Directors not having been voted into the position. A quorum will be six.

I have already requested a proxy form from Michael Stahl and advise all other members like me who cannot attend the meeting and feel strongly about this issue to do the same.